Well, here you were...again!
 

.... My racing buddies with their 1st Series Beneteau's,
Catalinas, J-Boats and C&Cs have something he'll never have.

An imaginary friend?
Lots of huge shiny trophies in the Matrix?
Blowhard bragging rights on the internet?



.... The wing just works against us at that point.

Could you explain what this means, technically?


"Capt" Rob wrote:
Our wing has 19% more wetted surface than the standard 6 foot keel.

According to who?

It's also less hydrodynamic dead downwind.

Really? What hydrodynamic purpose does the keel serve when
running DDW?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Oh and I'd like to hear about your champion racing buddy
with the bulb keel frac rig J-29. Got that hull# yet? It's
really really hard to find.

DSK

Well, here you were...again!
 

Blowhard bragging rights on the internet?


.... The wing just works against us at that point.


Could you explain what this means, technically?


"Capt" Rob wrote:
Our wing has 19% more wetted surface than the standard 6 foot keel.



According to who?

BeneteauUSA, Doug. The keel is not only winged but also LONGER. See!
http://www.beneteauusa.com/sail/prev...ages/f35s5.gif
YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU"RE TALKING ABOUT!!!


Really? What hydrodynamic purpose does the keel serve when
running DDW?

Gee wiz, Doug, what does a centerboard boat do with the dagger DDW?
That answers your question in part, but a standard keel on a
displacement hull can benefit from some tracking via a fin. Wings can
offer lift, but for a boat like mine, it's a slower run than a regular
fin. YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT!!!!


Oh and I'd like to hear about your champion racing buddy

Show everyone that you're not a liar and POST where I wrote he was
champion racer!!! GO AHEAD!!! YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING
ABOUT!!!!


with the bulb keel frac rig J-29. Got that hull# yet? It's
really really hard to find.

Doug, tomorrow evening I'll post pics of the boat and hull #, thereby
proving YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT!!!
Why don't we bet something? I'll bet 100 dollars that I post pics of
the J boat by tomorrow evening and that you'll also look dumber than
toast!

RB
35s5
NY

Well, here you were...again!
 

Ok Nutsy,

Some more from the Old Man;

Heading downwind; if you have the 150% poled out (Ah yes) Take the Lazy
Sheet forward to the Bow mooring cleat and then back to the off side
winch and haul (Barbar haul) the pole down. Just hand tight. Gybe the
Main over to wing-on-wing and barbar haul the Boom, if you don't have a
preventer. Now you have both sails under control for downwind, Ease the
helm gently to force the jib to windward (maybe as much as 20 degrees or
until the jib starts to back) then drop back just until the jib starts
to draw again. You'll get your boat down wind almost as fast a a chute.
You'll be amassed at the speed you'll pick up.

You can travel like that until you can come back to your course on a
fast broad reach. Give it a try. It will satisfy that big Main and be a
lot faster and easier going down wind.

If you like it you can mount a Cunningham hook on the deck, forward of
the main but back where you can easily hook the Lazy sheet, like I did

My female crew call it it "Cookie Tack" They're set it up and I'd pass
them the bag bag of cookies I'd buy for them on sailing nite. It was
time for them to sit still ans gab.

P/S It was also the tack I'd like to cut loose a healthy Fart and let
it sail with us down wind :^)

My tip for the first of Aug. Take it or leave it




http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage

Well, here you were...again!
 

.... but a standard keel on a
displacement hull can benefit from some tracking via a fin.

Does anybody else get the point here, it is complete
double-talk to me.



Dave wrote:
I think what he means is that a fin keel will have some tendency to
keep the boat pointing in the same direction when subjected to turning
forces.

So ya think he means the keel as a fin, not an additional
fin on the fin keel?

Actually, if that's what he meant, he's wrong. A fin keel
provides lateral resistance and a pivot point so that the
boat will turn easily & consistently.

But as you say, what does one expect from Bubspritke.

DSK

Well, here you were...again!
 

Lets not all forget that the Boob told us a while back that that ******
wing lifted the boat up going downwind and helped get that 15,000 bus
on "semi plane"

35s5 - always at the back of the pack

Well, here you were...again!
 

Ringmaster wrote:
Lets not all forget that the Boob told us a while back that that ******
wing lifted the boat up going downwind and helped get that 15,000 bus
on "semi plane"


A lot of people thought this was how the Australia 2 wing
keel worked. This is probably the smartest source of wrong
info the Boobster has tapped.


35s5 - always at the back of the pack


Yeah but it's not really the boat's fault.

I'm waiting to hear why a J-29 would be better for having a
bulb keel. The class rules are loose but not that loose. And
why do this on a frac rig when a masthead would pay off
more, for less cash outlay?

Maybe Bubbles' "racing buddies" are weirdo Noo Yawkers like
him, who like to brag about their expensive useless toys.

DSK

Well, here you were...again!
 

Nutsy,
Our wing has 19% more wetted surface than the standard 6 foot keel. It's
also less hydrodynamic dead downwind. Some 35s5's owners have fared the
wing to improve this weakness with good results. I can give you
a-----------

That wetted surface can be made to work for you. I had my wing set to
point slightly downward, so the when she heeled the pitch of the wing
would counter-act any leeway.

With the Sails set as I explained. I would the crew in the cockpit to
get a parallel set of the wing with water surface. This with the airflow
shape of the wing would give me enough (or more) lift, depending on the
flow to over-come the wetted area.

Next time you have her on the hard check that alignment. I'm sure other
have thought of this as well as me. In the mean time check speed and
crew placement. Your wing keel will match a deep fin without a problem.

Remember that the Aussies passed O'Connor on the down wind leg in the
Am. Cup.

Just learn to sail it. It's a great keel. At least mine was.




http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage

Well, here you were...again!
 

Loco,
I believe it was me that claimed the wing produced an upward lift on the
hull, not Nutsy.

I don't understand your lack of acceptance to this fact? Do you accept a
fin keel creating upwind lift to eliminate leeway? Do you believe a
simple wooden slate pointed at the proper angle can support a human on
the surface of the water? Do you believe a high performance wind surfer
will lift a man to the surface of the water?

Why can't you except the fact that a wing keel can create a upward lift
on a hull equal to the weight of a crewman.? The elimination of the
weight of a single crewman will make a vessel go faster.

A well designed wing keel, as demonstrated of the Aussies, can and did
make a boat of very similar design sailed by a simular capable crew a
faster boat.

Loco, I think it's time for you to examine all the fact once again. I
do believe you're missing something




http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage

Well, here you were...again!
 

Thom Stewart wrote:

Loco, I think it's time for you to examine all the fact once again. I
do believe you're missing something

I have done some reading on wing keels over the years. I
particularly remember Paul Yates writings on this type of foil. Paul
Yates was the designer of the Merit line of sailboats and the only 3
time winner of the MORC International Championships. He designed a
wing keel for the Merit 23. This was a full race version of the 22
(actually the same hull) He stated a number of facts with 2 that stick
out in my mind. One, the winged keels that have appeared on every
production boat have NOTHING to do design wise or performance wise with
the winged keels that were used on the 12 meter AC boats. Two, any
wing keel must not contribute any force in any direction since that
force would only slow the boat down. This fact kinda shoots a hole in
any theory that would suggest that a wing keel could help lift a 15,000
35' bus up onto plane. If this were possible I think we would have
lightweight sport boats with winged keels being sold on every street
corner. As it stands at the present I don't know of one planing
sportboat that uses a winged keel.
The wing on production boats is only a way to get additional
weight down low without going deeper. These days bulbs have become
more fashionable.

Well, here you were...again!
 

Loco,

You're the only one talking about get a hull on plane. I showed you a
picture of my 2nd boat with a semi planning Hull.

That isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the lifting force
created down wind, the righting force created when heeled. It is more
than just weight. It is a aerilon force using "Newton Theory" of force
producing an equal and opposite force.

The Wing Keel works. You have to know how and why it works and then
learn to sail your vessel accordingly. Is it faster; probably not, but
it is a more comfortable ride and a decent wind is equal to or better
than a straight Fin. It has to have a flow over it.




http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage