Well, here you were...again!
 

Today was one of those amazing sailing days! All day it was blistering
hot, too rough to mess about on board much. But a few friends wanted to
see the boat and so everyone showed up at 6:00. By then some wind had
kicked up and when we cleared the breakwater a cool breeze was on our
nose. 10-15 knots.....

http://members.aol.com/bobsprit/images/monday.jpg

We sailed under main for 2 hours, plenty of wind for it and then, at
the request of a 12 year old new sailor aboard, sailed under the Throgs
Neck and Whitestone bridges. It was a nice sail, but the cool air was
really unexpected. We had a pretty spectacular sunset and Thomas was
having a blast with everyone and showing off trying to pull lines. He's
really had a good time on board thus far and I think we're doing a
great job creating a positive association for him with sailing.
The boat is just amazing...we ran down every sailboat we saw, passing
everything from J24s, to a Pearson 39 and S2 of some type. No
matter....no hurry, but really enjoying sailing this boat which is so
quick and responsive. Suzanne LOVES it.

I see you all were online again while we sailed. Good work!

RB
35s5
NY

Well, here you were...again!
 

Nutsy,

I envy you! Don't think the wind as high a you say, but no matter. You
had a breeze. Looks like a nice breeze for your Benny.

Nice to see a flat horizon and a honest gentle heel.

Ah yes; I remember well.




http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage

Well, here you were...again!
 

In article , OzOne wrote:
On 31 Jul 2006 19:54:02 -0700, "Capt. Rob"
scribbled thusly:



Today was one of those amazing sailing days! All day it was blistering
hot, too rough to mess about on board much. But a few friends wanted to
see the boat and so everyone showed up at 6:00. By then some wind had
kicked up and when we cleared the breakwater a cool breeze was on our
nose. 10-15 knots.....

http://members.aol.com/bobsprit/images/monday.jpg



Bob, I do wish you'd remove those winch handles when they're not being
used.
I don't mind lines just tossed around a winch..it is the best way
IMHO.
I 'm not all that worried by a handle being left on a loaded winch
that may require adjusting, but a handle just sitting there on an
unused winch can be the cause of a serious injury.
Think about doing it a little differently.

Glad to see you're getting so much use from your boat...unfortunately
mine are gathering weed for a little longer.

The line around it is a mess... looks like there are two lines
actually. Not a good practice.

The line on the ring appears to be faked nicely, but has a knot that
shouldn't be on a safety line that needs to be deployed immediately.
It's not clear if it's actually attached to the boat.

Yet again the "responsible" adults are setting a bad example by not
wearing PFDs.
--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com

Well, here you were...again!
 

The line around it is a mess... looks like there are two lines
actually. Not a good practice.

But does it matter?
The lines can be easilly tossed off the winch or overboard if needed
in a hurry.

Maybe, maybe knot. Depends on how they were wrapped, who wrapped them, and
how picks up which line first.


The line on the ring appears to be faked nicely, but has a knot that
shouldn't be on a safety line that needs to be deployed immediately.
It's not clear if it's actually attached to the boat.
The bowline you see is where it attaches from what I can see, and the
loops around the line will quickly drop off if need be.
Frankly, I don't attach ring lines to my yachts.
If the ring is needed, and it is evident that the MOB will get to it
before the line runs out, I'll take a turn around a winch or cleat.
However, if we're moving fast and the line will run out, I'd rather
just drop it and leave my MOB with the ring, then drag it around
behind me.
Of course another line may be require in that intance to circle the
MOB if pickup is going to be difficult.

Well, with the Lifesling, the bitter end is attached to the boat. It works
really well, and the ring and line rig isn't that much different from the
LS.


Yet again the "responsible" adults are setting a bad example by not
wearing PFDs.

Do you wear a PFD every time you sail on a 36' yacht in benign
conditions with plenty of able adults also onboard?
Way to anal for me I'm afraid.

In the SF bay, absolutely. It's the water temp that's the issue. Although
one can theoretically succumb to hypothermia in the Carib, it would take a
lot longer. Since I teach on the bay, we make it a requirement for a number
of reasons not the least of which is insurance. All the schools without
exception require students and charterers to wear PFDs while above deck.
Difficult to enforce if it's a charter, but if it becomes a habit, then it's
more likely to happen.


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

Well, here you were...again!
 

Comments on posts above:


Thom, winds reported at La Guardia were 11.5 at 5:51 and 15 at 6:51 pm.

The throw line has a couple of wraps around it and a twist, but it's
always possible for a passenger to panic and tangle a line. A bag for
the line might be safer.

Ozzy, you're right about the winch handles. As the sun set and I opened
the 110% we were cooking well enough and we had enough activity on deck
to make the handles a hazard. I haven't set up a place for the floating
handle to be stowed yet.

The genoa sheet and furling line are coiled around the winch. This is
common practice and they are a moment away from being ready to deploy
the headsail.


RB
35s5
NY

Well, here you were...again!
 

Believe me, they tangle in bags too, particularly if just left and not
pulled and 'reloaded' regularly..easily forgotten, out of sight and
all that.


That's a good point as well. In any case, the 35s5 has a very secure
cockpit and wide decks all around. It's not easy to fall off the boat
in normal conditions and we don't go looking for trouble with Thomas
aboard.


RB
35s5
NY

Well, here you were...again!
 

Nutsy,

You should be able to read the local winds by just looking at the water
surface. It is the Sailor's Way. The 15 knt is mid force 4 the 11.5 is
still force 3. Upper force 3 you should be seeing white caps starting to
show. Your picture doesn't show white caps but it does show wavelets. A
Sailor would know that you were sailing in Force3 at the present time
the picture was taken.

It really doesn't make a difference, just trying to help a little. Looks
like a Ball was being had by all.

Nutsy, when I was just dinking around and seen the wind building, I'd
roll the headsail to about 80% and add twist to the main to keep
"Pneuma" acting like a Lady.

My buddy with the 35.5 Benny would do the same with his main. He'd put
enough twist until the Main was just about luffing at the head. The
Racing Fraternity would ask why he didn't reef, He'd say if it get any
worst he would. He'd watch the heel meter.

Nutsy, my sailing information for today, take or ****can it. Up to you.

Happy sailing

OT




http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage

Well, here you were...again!
 

My buddy with the 35.5 Benny would do the same with his main. He'd put

enough twist until the Main was just about luffing at the head. The
Racing Fraternity would ask why he didn't reef, He'd say if it get any

worst he would. He'd watch the heel meter.


Nutsy, my sailing information for today, take or ****can it. Up to you.



Good info, Thom. On a very close reach, twist the main to spill the top
3rd...pretty much what we were doing with just the main up as we made
our way towards the bridges. We stayed heeled to about 10 degrees and
made good progress at about 5.5-6 knots. It's really bad trim after a
fashion, but my racing buddies call any depowering bad trim!
Later on we popped the 110% which was close to a dead run home. I
didn't like it so I went for a series of broad reaches instead. Dead
downwind "feels" like the weekspot for this boat, especially without a
chute or poled out 150%. The wing just works against us at that point.


RB
35s5
NY

Well, here you were...again!
 

"Capt" Rob wrote:
.... my racing buddies call any depowering bad trim!

1- very strongly doubt there is any truth to this statement

2- if there is, then Bubbles' "racing buddies" are almost as
stupid & incompetent as he is.

Any sailor who is awake during a race... or at least, a race
with good wind... realizes that overpowered is slow.

Depowering a boat while inducing as little drag as possible
is one of the key skills of racing... I'd say, of sailing
well at all, regardless of racing or daysailing or cruising.



..... Dead
downwind "feels" like the weekspot for this boat, especially without a
chute or poled out 150%.

Says the man who has never flown a spinnaker.

.... The wing just works against us at that point.


Could you explain what this means, technically?

Bubbles, you're nuts.

DSK

Well, here you were...again!
 

.... my racing buddies call any depowering bad trim!


1- very strongly doubt there is any truth to this statement

2- if there is, then Bubbles' "racing buddies" are almost as
stupid & incompetent as he is.



Poor Doug. My racing buddies with their 1st Series Beneteau's,
Catalinas, J-Boats and C&Cs have something he'll never have.
A sense of humor. Anyone else would have known that a comment like that
is humorous, but NOT Doug!
Bravo...now kill the light, Hymie!



.... The wing just works against us at that point.


Could you explain what this means, technically?


Our wing has 19% more wetted surface than the standard 6 foot keel.
It's also less hydrodynamic dead downwind. Some 35s5's owners have
fared the wing to improve this weakness with good results. I can give
you a link to one owner who's done that and is winning some big races.
He's also listed on the North Sails website.
Why don't YOU explain to everyone why a wing can cause problems
downwind...there are 3 major reasons. Let's see you list them.


RB
35s5
NY

Well, here you were...again!
 

.... My racing buddies with their 1st Series Beneteau's,
Catalinas, J-Boats and C&Cs have something he'll never have.

An imaginary friend?
Lots of huge shiny trophies in the Matrix?
Blowhard bragging rights on the internet?



.... The wing just works against us at that point.

Could you explain what this means, technically?


"Capt" Rob wrote:
Our wing has 19% more wetted surface than the standard 6 foot keel.

According to who?

It's also less hydrodynamic dead downwind.

Really? What hydrodynamic purpose does the keel serve when
running DDW?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Oh and I'd like to hear about your champion racing buddy
with the bulb keel frac rig J-29. Got that hull# yet? It's
really really hard to find.

DSK

Well, here you were...again!
 

Blowhard bragging rights on the internet?


.... The wing just works against us at that point.


Could you explain what this means, technically?


"Capt" Rob wrote:
Our wing has 19% more wetted surface than the standard 6 foot keel.



According to who?

BeneteauUSA, Doug. The keel is not only winged but also LONGER. See!
http://www.beneteauusa.com/sail/prev...ages/f35s5.gif
YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU"RE TALKING ABOUT!!!


Really? What hydrodynamic purpose does the keel serve when
running DDW?

Gee wiz, Doug, what does a centerboard boat do with the dagger DDW?
That answers your question in part, but a standard keel on a
displacement hull can benefit from some tracking via a fin. Wings can
offer lift, but for a boat like mine, it's a slower run than a regular
fin. YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT!!!!


Oh and I'd like to hear about your champion racing buddy

Show everyone that you're not a liar and POST where I wrote he was
champion racer!!! GO AHEAD!!! YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING
ABOUT!!!!


with the bulb keel frac rig J-29. Got that hull# yet? It's
really really hard to find.

Doug, tomorrow evening I'll post pics of the boat and hull #, thereby
proving YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT!!!
Why don't we bet something? I'll bet 100 dollars that I post pics of
the J boat by tomorrow evening and that you'll also look dumber than
toast!

RB
35s5
NY

Well, here you were...again!
 

Ok Nutsy,

Some more from the Old Man;

Heading downwind; if you have the 150% poled out (Ah yes) Take the Lazy
Sheet forward to the Bow mooring cleat and then back to the off side
winch and haul (Barbar haul) the pole down. Just hand tight. Gybe the
Main over to wing-on-wing and barbar haul the Boom, if you don't have a
preventer. Now you have both sails under control for downwind, Ease the
helm gently to force the jib to windward (maybe as much as 20 degrees or
until the jib starts to back) then drop back just until the jib starts
to draw again. You'll get your boat down wind almost as fast a a chute.
You'll be amassed at the speed you'll pick up.

You can travel like that until you can come back to your course on a
fast broad reach. Give it a try. It will satisfy that big Main and be a
lot faster and easier going down wind.

If you like it you can mount a Cunningham hook on the deck, forward of
the main but back where you can easily hook the Lazy sheet, like I did

My female crew call it it "Cookie Tack" They're set it up and I'd pass
them the bag bag of cookies I'd buy for them on sailing nite. It was
time for them to sit still ans gab.

P/S It was also the tack I'd like to cut loose a healthy Fart and let
it sail with us down wind :^)

My tip for the first of Aug. Take it or leave it




http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage

Well, here you were...again!
 

.... but a standard keel on a
displacement hull can benefit from some tracking via a fin.

Does anybody else get the point here, it is complete
double-talk to me.



Dave wrote:
I think what he means is that a fin keel will have some tendency to
keep the boat pointing in the same direction when subjected to turning
forces.

So ya think he means the keel as a fin, not an additional
fin on the fin keel?

Actually, if that's what he meant, he's wrong. A fin keel
provides lateral resistance and a pivot point so that the
boat will turn easily & consistently.

But as you say, what does one expect from Bubspritke.

DSK

Well, here you were...again!
 

Lets not all forget that the Boob told us a while back that that ******
wing lifted the boat up going downwind and helped get that 15,000 bus
on "semi plane"

35s5 - always at the back of the pack

Well, here you were...again!
 

Ringmaster wrote:
Lets not all forget that the Boob told us a while back that that ******
wing lifted the boat up going downwind and helped get that 15,000 bus
on "semi plane"


A lot of people thought this was how the Australia 2 wing
keel worked. This is probably the smartest source of wrong
info the Boobster has tapped.


35s5 - always at the back of the pack


Yeah but it's not really the boat's fault.

I'm waiting to hear why a J-29 would be better for having a
bulb keel. The class rules are loose but not that loose. And
why do this on a frac rig when a masthead would pay off
more, for less cash outlay?

Maybe Bubbles' "racing buddies" are weirdo Noo Yawkers like
him, who like to brag about their expensive useless toys.

DSK

Well, here you were...again!
 

Nutsy,
Our wing has 19% more wetted surface than the standard 6 foot keel. It's
also less hydrodynamic dead downwind. Some 35s5's owners have fared the
wing to improve this weakness with good results. I can give you
a-----------

That wetted surface can be made to work for you. I had my wing set to
point slightly downward, so the when she heeled the pitch of the wing
would counter-act any leeway.

With the Sails set as I explained. I would the crew in the cockpit to
get a parallel set of the wing with water surface. This with the airflow
shape of the wing would give me enough (or more) lift, depending on the
flow to over-come the wetted area.

Next time you have her on the hard check that alignment. I'm sure other
have thought of this as well as me. In the mean time check speed and
crew placement. Your wing keel will match a deep fin without a problem.

Remember that the Aussies passed O'Connor on the down wind leg in the
Am. Cup.

Just learn to sail it. It's a great keel. At least mine was.




http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage

Well, here you were...again!
 

Loco,
I believe it was me that claimed the wing produced an upward lift on the
hull, not Nutsy.

I don't understand your lack of acceptance to this fact? Do you accept a
fin keel creating upwind lift to eliminate leeway? Do you believe a
simple wooden slate pointed at the proper angle can support a human on
the surface of the water? Do you believe a high performance wind surfer
will lift a man to the surface of the water?

Why can't you except the fact that a wing keel can create a upward lift
on a hull equal to the weight of a crewman.? The elimination of the
weight of a single crewman will make a vessel go faster.

A well designed wing keel, as demonstrated of the Aussies, can and did
make a boat of very similar design sailed by a simular capable crew a
faster boat.

Loco, I think it's time for you to examine all the fact once again. I
do believe you're missing something




http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage

Well, here you were...again!
 

Thom Stewart wrote:

Loco, I think it's time for you to examine all the fact once again. I
do believe you're missing something

I have done some reading on wing keels over the years. I
particularly remember Paul Yates writings on this type of foil. Paul
Yates was the designer of the Merit line of sailboats and the only 3
time winner of the MORC International Championships. He designed a
wing keel for the Merit 23. This was a full race version of the 22
(actually the same hull) He stated a number of facts with 2 that stick
out in my mind. One, the winged keels that have appeared on every
production boat have NOTHING to do design wise or performance wise with
the winged keels that were used on the 12 meter AC boats. Two, any
wing keel must not contribute any force in any direction since that
force would only slow the boat down. This fact kinda shoots a hole in
any theory that would suggest that a wing keel could help lift a 15,000
35' bus up onto plane. If this were possible I think we would have
lightweight sport boats with winged keels being sold on every street
corner. As it stands at the present I don't know of one planing
sportboat that uses a winged keel.
The wing on production boats is only a way to get additional
weight down low without going deeper. These days bulbs have become
more fashionable.

Well, here you were...again!
 

Loco,

You're the only one talking about get a hull on plane. I showed you a
picture of my 2nd boat with a semi planning Hull.

That isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the lifting force
created down wind, the righting force created when heeled. It is more
than just weight. It is a aerilon force using "Newton Theory" of force
producing an equal and opposite force.

The Wing Keel works. You have to know how and why it works and then
learn to sail your vessel accordingly. Is it faster; probably not, but
it is a more comfortable ride and a decent wind is equal to or better
than a straight Fin. It has to have a flow over it.




http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage

Well, here you were...again!
 

Loco;

--------------------------------------------
Two, any wing keel must not contribute any force in any direction since
that force would only slow the boat down.
______________________________

What kind of a stupid statement is that?
Any an all keels creates force and slows a boat down but they are a
necessary evil to give direction and stability. With or without wings.
A fixed keel is a creation of drag as well as lift.

I can only thing of the saying; " No one is as blind as a person who
refuses to see!"




http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage

Well, here you were...again!
 

"Ringmaster" wrote in message
ps.com...

Thom Stewart wrote:

Loco, I think it's time for you to examine all the fact once again. I
do believe you're missing something

I have done some reading on wing keels over the years. I
particularly remember Paul Yates writings on this type of foil. Paul
Yates was the designer of the Merit line of sailboats and the only 3
time winner of the MORC International Championships. He designed a
wing keel for the Merit 23. This was a full race version of the 22
(actually the same hull) He stated a number of facts with 2 that stick
out in my mind. One, the winged keels that have appeared on every
production boat have NOTHING to do design wise or performance wise with
the winged keels that were used on the 12 meter AC boats. Two, any
wing keel must not contribute any force in any direction since that
force would only slow the boat down. [snip]

Loco,
Good discussion!
Isn't it all about forces (i.e., producing and manipulating them)? If no
force is contributed, in any direction, what is the point in the wing keel?
Even a lead weight produces a useful force.
Scout

Well, here you were...again!
 

Thom Stewart wrote:
You're the only one talking about get a hull on plane. I showed you a
picture of my 2nd boat with a semi planning Hull.

That isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the lifting force
created down wind, the righting force created when heeled.

Sailboats need righting force when going downwind too. If
there were none, they would tip over.

A wing keel does not make a boat go any faster by lifting it
out of the water. You don't get lift for free. Lift comes at
the expense of drag, remember? The drag created by the wing
in the process of generating lift would be greater than any
drag saved by lifting the boat... otherwise you'd have a
perpetual motion machine.

Thom, you also stated that you angled the wings down to aid
the boat going upwind... how is that suddenly going to lift
the boat when going downwind? Adjustable flaps?



The Wing Keel works. You have to know how and why it works and then
learn to sail your vessel accordingly.

Wing keels work a bunch of different ways. One is that they
get more mass down low, improving stability and
sail-carrying power. More power = more speed. Another way
they "work" is to reduce drag at the keel tip by reducing
what's called the tip vortex: a large mass of water that is
swirled at the bottom edge & tip of the keel because of the
merging of the high and low pressure zones on the leeward &
windward sides of the keel. It takes a lot of energy to get
this mass swirling, that energy comes from the boat's
forward motion and is felt by the boat as drag.

Thom I was impressed that you remembered the Aussies passing
Dennis Conner on the downwind leg. That was actually the
biggest advantage Australia 2 had over Liberty; downwind she
could go lower & faster in the same pressure.


....Is it faster; probably not, but
it is a more comfortable ride and a decent wind is equal to or better
than a straight Fin. It has to have a flow over it.


One way I think a wing keel helps is to dampen pitching.
I've noticed this on several different boats... this can
make the boat faster as well as more comfortable.

A big disadvantage of wing keels here in the Southeast is
that they get stuck in the bottom. I have also proven that
you can take a 5' draft fin keel boat into places that a
4.5' wing keel can't go. And once stuck, wing keels are
harder to get free.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Well, here you were...again!
 

Ringmaster wrote:
I have done some reading on wing keels over the years. I
particularly remember Paul Yates writings on this type of foil. Paul
Yates was the designer of the Merit line of sailboats and the only 3
time winner of the MORC International Championships. He designed a
wing keel for the Merit 23. This was a full race version of the 22
(actually the same hull) He stated a number of facts with 2 that stick
out in my mind. One, the winged keels that have appeared on every
production boat have NOTHING to do design wise or performance wise with
the winged keels that were used on the 12 meter AC boats.

True. The wing keels on some racing boats are very complex
with more computer design work and testing than the average
moon rocket.


.....As it stands at the present I don't know of one planing
sportboat that uses a winged keel.

The new Moths?
http://moth.iointegration.com/

But I don't think they are sportboats, officially.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Well, here you were...again!
 

"Capt" Rob wrote:
Our wing has 19% more wetted surface than the standard 6 foot keel.



According to who?



BeneteauUSA. E-mail them if you like. Or simply use your head and look
at the two keels. The wing is a foot shorter, but it carries the wings,
side surface + flat keel bottom.



RB
35s5
NY

Well, here you were...again!
 

OzOne wrote:
Doug, IIRC, The biggest advantage Benny achieved with his wing was as
a 'cheater'.

Oh, I dunno... Dennis Conner and the New York YC certainly
thought it was cheating. Everybody else thought it was cool.

AmCup yachts rating formula took draft and keel weight into
consideration and Benny worked out that he could place the extra
weight in a wing arrangement on a shorter keel and gan measurement
advantages in other areas including sailplan.

There is also a limit on draft in the 12-Meter rule. One of
the 'problems' with the wing is that it is deeper when
heeled, and Australia 2 was protested on those grounds.


When heeled, the wing still gave the depth required for good 'grip'
uphill while giving reduced draft downhill.
Of cousre there were the other advantages, but a lot of work was
required to reduce drag from the possibility of generating an extra
tip vortex on the keel.

As I understand it, the way the tip vortex reduction works
is that the two tips generate counteracting vortices. There
is more turbulent flow, but less loss of differential
pressure from leeward (high pressure) to windward (low
pressure) and less energy transferred into the water. "Less
energy transfer" is a fancy way of saying less drag.


I know there are a couple of excellent studies online, but I just
can't recall them this evening.


Here's a pretty good one, although this begins far beyond
where mass-produced wing keels leave off.

Back to the original:
The international committee in charge of approving the
measurement & rating of 12-Meters had the power to stop
Australia 2 before letting her enter a single race... the
question of how to measure the girth at hull stations,
whether to include the wings in the draft, etc etc...
complex issue, but they decided to let it be decided on the
water.

The funny thing is that Dennis Conner was cheating too, he
had an illegal mast and had Liberty measured in two
different configurations, so effectively she was two
different boats. He whined & bitched about being cheated out
of the Cup, but the truth is he sailed an awesome series and
almost won anyway. If they had been smart, the Race
Committee could have enforced their own draft rule by
putting at least part of the course in water that was deep
enough for Liberty's conventional keel but not quite for
Australia 2's wings (which were very large, something like
18' span IIRC).

BTW I never did understand the name change with Bob Miller.
He was definitely an outstanding genius and a great sailor.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Well, here you were...again!
 

A wing keel does not make a boat go any faster by lifting it
out of the water. You don't get lift for free. Lift comes at
the expense of drag, remember? The drag created by the wing
in the process of generating lift would be greater than any
drag saved by lifting the boat... otherwise you'd have a
perpetual motion machine.


Charlie Morgan wrote:
Yeah! That's why no one has ever succesfully built a hydrofoil boat.
And you can stop trying to invent the airplane. too! Sails on a
sailboat will only make it go backwards due to all the drag overcoming
the lift.


So you believe a wing keel does make boats go fster by
lifting it up?

DSK

Well, here you were...again!
 

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Thom Stewart wrote:
You're the only one talking about get a hull on plane. I showed you a
picture of my 2nd boat with a semi planning Hull.

That isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the lifting force
created down wind, the righting force created when heeled.

Sailboats need righting force when going downwind too. If there were none,
they would tip over.

A wing keel does not make a boat go any faster by lifting it out of the
water. You don't get lift for free. Lift comes at the expense of drag,
remember? The drag created by the wing in the process of generating lift
would be greater than any drag saved by lifting the boat... otherwise
you'd have a perpetual motion machine.

" . . . and that stupid perpetual motion machine that Lisa made just keeps
going faster and faster. Lisa! In this house we obey the laws of
thermodynamics!"
Homer Simpson in "Disbanding of the PTA"

Well, here you were...again!
 

... The drag created by the wing in the process of generating lift
would be greater than any drag saved by lifting the boat... otherwise
you'd have a perpetual motion machine.


Scout wrote:
" . . . and that stupid perpetual motion machine that Lisa made just keeps
going faster and faster. Lisa! In this house we obey the laws of
thermodynamics!"
Homer Simpson in "Disbanding of the PTA"


If there was a perpetual motion machine that mowed the lawn,
I'd be in favor of it.

You wanna try to explain the difference between a wing keel
and a hydrofoil to ChuckieM/Krusty/BB? Other than that one
is very heavy and increases stability by use of much lead,
and the other is as light as can be made for the strength
needed?

DSK

Well, here you were...again!
 

DSK wrote:
Ringmaster wrote:
I have done some reading on wing keels over the years. I
particularly remember Paul Yates writings on this type of foil. Paul
Yates was the designer of the Merit line of sailboats and the only 3
time winner of the MORC International Championships. He designed a
wing keel for the Merit 23. This was a full race version of the 22
(actually the same hull) He stated a number of facts with 2 that stick
out in my mind. One, the winged keels that have appeared on every
production boat have NOTHING to do design wise or performance wise with
the winged keels that were used on the 12 meter AC boats.

True. The wing keels on some racing boats are very complex
with more computer design work and testing than the average
moon rocket.


.....As it stands at the present I don't know of one planing
sportboat that uses a winged keel.

The new Moths?
http://moth.iointegration.com/

But I don't think they are sportboats, officially.

looks sporty to me...Wow what a blast, but expect to get wet everytime.
With a dozen gyros and computor it would be fun to make a similar 60
fter

Joe

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Well, here you were...again!
 

What kind of a stupid statement is that?
Any an all keels creates force and slows a boat down but they are a
necessary evil to give direction and stability. With or without wings.

A fixed keel is a creation of drag as well as lift.

Paul Yates reference to a wing keel not creating a force in any
direction was describing how if the boat is sitting flat in the water
the "wings" should be flat too. In other words the wings cannot be
angled up or down like the elevators on an airplane. Yes, the wing
keel will creat lift when going upwind like any keel but not "lift"
going downwind to get the boat to "get up on plane" Once again, winged
keels on production boats bacame popular after the Americas Cup because
rummys thought they were high tech when in reality they were just a new
way to add weight without going deeper. If they are so great where are
they now? As I said before bulbs are now the rage.

Well, here you were...again!
 

Doug,

The biggest and intended difference is the wing was to keep the boat in
the water AND UPRIGHT so the sails would be more efficent.

A Hydrofoil is meant to lift as much wetted area as possible to reduce
Drag




http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage

Well, here you were...again!
 

OZ,

I thought that heeling depth was a good protest. I was surprized when
it wasn't honored.




http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage

Well, here you were...again!
 

Loco,

Good Jesus!! Where are they now??? What the Hell do you think we are
talking about.

You do make me wonder Loco. You are Blind!




http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage

Well, here you were...again!
 

Loco,

The wing on Pneuma's keel pointed
down at two degrees when the boat was at rest. This was ot counter
leeway when heeled :^p




http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage

Well, here you were...again!
 

Loco,

You haven't a clue on how a Wing Keel operates. Give it up.




http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage

Well, here you were...again!
 

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message
ups.com...

Comments on posts above:


Thom, winds reported at La Guardia were 11.5 at 5:51 and
15 at 6:51 pm.

Don't the jet pilots mind when you're sailing on their
runway?




..

Well, here you were...again!
 

Don't the jet pilots mind when you're sailing on their
runway?



This from the guy who's boat is PARKED on land!! Beep, Beep!

BWAHAHAHAHAHHA!


RB
35s5
NY

Well, here you were...again!
 

"Charlie Morgan" wrote in message
...
Yeah! That's why no one has ever succesfully built a hydrofoil boat.
And you can stop trying to invent the airplane. too! Sails on a
sailboat will only make it go backwards due to all the drag overcoming
the lift.

CWM

Have you ever flown an airplane? :-)

LP

Well, here you were...again!
 

He's asking because he wants you, as disgusting as that is...

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Charlie Morgan" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 3 Aug 2006 21:34:22 -0500, "Lady Pilot" wrote:


"Charlie Morgan" wrote in message
. ..
Yeah! That's why no one has ever succesfully built a hydrofoil boat.
And you can stop trying to invent the airplane. too! Sails on a
sailboat will only make it go backwards due to all the drag overcoming
the lift.

CWM

Have you ever flown an airplane? :-)

LP


Am I a licensed pilot? No. Have I taken the controls of an airplane? Yes,
quite
a few times. Why do you ask?

CWM