Orta Vez
 

Well, that's an issue for another discussion. Steel boats
have their disadvantages from my point of view, too ;)


Scotty wrote:
Besides the rust, and being heavy and slow, what are the
disadvantages of a steel boat.


Well, there's the rust. Then there's the fact that it's not
as easy to repair as fiberglass. And it rusts.

It can never be as strong as a well-engineered and well
built fiberglass hull & deck, much less carbon fiber. The
biggest disadvantage is the rust, howewver, which once it
starts will never stop and eats away at every part of the
boat, especially the inaccessible crevices which are
structurally critical.

Then there's the issue of galvanic corrosion, not as bad as
aluminum but a dropped wire can eat right thru it, as can a
penny in the bilge. The rust is also a constant problem.

Because the galavanic corrosion, if lead ballast is used it
must be very carefully insulated from the structural parts
of the boat (usually done with fiberglass, which was
originally invented as electrical insulation). Alos because
steel is so heavy, it is difficult to design a steel boat
that can carry a high proportion of ballast. Don't forget
about rust.

Almost every steel boat will have slight ripples in the
metal from welding, and it will look crummy or else be
filled with Bondo. This isn't really a bad problem as long
as the putty doesn't fall off from rust under it.

As a Navy veteran, I can tell you that infinite man hours
and oceans of red-lead primer are not enough to keep a steel
vessel from rusting away beneath your feet. The first ship I
was on actually had fiberglass patches on the hull where the
rust had eaten thru. What does that tell you? Something like
"Build it out of fiberglass in the first place!"

But if you're going to get shot at, a couple of steel plates
between you & the bullets is very nice. The only thing
better would be some Kevlar or some of that new fiberglass
tank armor.

;)

DSK

Orta Vez
 

Think I'll stick with glass. I've heard that 'rust never
sleeps'.

What is the biggest fiber glass boat built?
Is it conceivable that a large ship could be built of glass?


--
Scott Vernon
Plowville Pa _/)__/)_/)_


"DSK" wrote in message
...
Well, that's an issue for another discussion. Steel
boats
have their disadvantages from my point of view, too ;)


Scotty wrote:
Besides the rust, and being heavy and slow, what are the
disadvantages of a steel boat.


Well, there's the rust. Then there's the fact that it's
not
as easy to repair as fiberglass. And it rusts.

It can never be as strong as a well-engineered and well
built fiberglass hull & deck, much less carbon fiber. The
biggest disadvantage is the rust, howewver, which once it
starts will never stop and eats away at every part of the
boat, especially the inaccessible crevices which are
structurally critical.

Then there's the issue of galvanic corrosion, not as bad
as
aluminum but a dropped wire can eat right thru it, as can
a
penny in the bilge. The rust is also a constant problem.

Because the galavanic corrosion, if lead ballast is used
it
must be very carefully insulated from the structural parts
of the boat (usually done with fiberglass, which was
originally invented as electrical insulation). Alos
because
steel is so heavy, it is difficult to design a steel boat
that can carry a high proportion of ballast. Don't forget
about rust.

Almost every steel boat will have slight ripples in the
metal from welding, and it will look crummy or else be
filled with Bondo. This isn't really a bad problem as long
as the putty doesn't fall off from rust under it.

As a Navy veteran, I can tell you that infinite man hours
and oceans of red-lead primer are not enough to keep a
steel
vessel from rusting away beneath your feet. The first ship
I
was on actually had fiberglass patches on the hull where
the
rust had eaten thru. What does that tell you? Something
like
"Build it out of fiberglass in the first place!"

But if you're going to get shot at, a couple of steel
plates
between you & the bullets is very nice. The only thing
better would be some Kevlar or some of that new fiberglass
tank armor.

;)

DSK

Orta Vez
 

Scotty wrote:
Think I'll stick with glass. I've heard that 'rust never
sleeps'.


I heard that too. In fact I've heard it several times, real
REAL loud!

What is the biggest fiber glass boat built?
Is it conceivable that a large ship could be built of glass?


Dunno about the biggest, the new super-yachts are being
built of fiberglass (well, "composite" but it's basically
fiberglass) upwards of 200' and 700 tons. The Navy had a
class of minesweeps built of fiberglass, don't think they
were as long but they were likely more tonnage.

There's no reason a big ship couldn't be built out of
fiberglass. Nobody's doing it because the facilities are
already in place to build them of steel. It would be
interesting to see if fiberglass commercial hulls could have
a longer service life.

DSK

Orta Vez
 

On Thu, 3 Aug 2006 09:20:27 -0400, "Scotty"
wrote:

Think I'll stick with glass. I've heard that 'rust never
sleeps'.

What is the biggest fiber glass boat built?
Is it conceivable that a large ship could be built of glass?


Minesweepers for the Navy were/maybe still are built in a yard in
Gulfport, MS. Can't remember what the length is. I worked at that
plant when it was under different ownership and had a different
product line (offshore production platforms).

Orta Vez
 

DSK wrote:
Well, that's an issue for another discussion. Steel boats
have their disadvantages from my point of view, too ;)


Scotty wrote:
Besides the rust, and being heavy and slow, what are the
disadvantages of a steel boat.


Well, there's the rust. Then there's the fact that it's not
as easy to repair as fiberglass. And it rusts.

You are out of your mind, Steel is much easier nd cheaper to repair and
can be repaired in most ports around the world. I could repaire a 3ft
hole in about 3-4 hrs with steel it. take weeks or months on fragile
glass, and you have that itchy dust, expensive resins, soft cores,
matching gel-coats and it goes on and on for the flammable fiberglass.

It can never be as strong as a well-engineered and well
built fiberglass hull & deck, much less carbon fiber.

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha......bwahahaha hahahahahahahahaha

The
biggest disadvantage is the rust, howewver, which once it
starts will never stop and eats away at every part of the
boat, especially the inaccessible crevices which are
structurally critical.

Sounds like you know nothing about maintaining a steel boat.

Then there's the issue of galvanic corrosion, not as bad as
aluminum but a dropped wire can eat right thru it, as can a
penny in the bilge. The rust is also a constant problem.

Oh boy, a penny in the bilge fool, I guess you glass guys leave stray
wires adrift in contact with your hulls allot. Guess you yse romax and
do not run your wires in approved casings. Not smart, better check your
zincs.

Because the galavanic corrosion, if lead ballast is used it
must be very carefully insulated from the structural parts
of the boat (usually done with fiberglass, which was
originally invented as electrical insulation).

Steel punch shot is the way to go on a steel boat.

Alos because
steel is so heavy, it is difficult to design a steel boat
that can carry a high proportion of ballast. Don't forget
about rust.

Have you seen Around the Horn by Irving Johnson? Not enough ballest on
a sailing ship my ass...all the flying P's were steel..You pulling
these spec's outta thin air or what?



Almost every steel boat will have slight ripples in the
metal from welding,

Well a crappy mold will make a fiberglass hull look like crap, I've
seen such cheap FG hulls it looks like they used hatchets to make the
molds. You need skilled labor doing both tasks.
I assure you there are more skilled welders on earth that FG experts.

and it will look crummy or else be
filled with Bondo.

My DeVires has zero bondo, and I challenge anyone to find a weld on the
outside of my hull or cabin

This isn't really a bad problem as long
as the putty doesn't fall off from rust under it.

As a Navy veteran, I can tell you that infinite man hours
and oceans of red-lead primer are not enough to keep a steel
vessel from rusting away beneath your feet.

How old is Ol Ironsides?

The first ship I
was on actually had fiberglass patches on the hull where the
rust had eaten thru. What does that tell you?

1.)Total idiots were in command or your ship or they were inept.
2.) Total idiots were repairing your ship or they were inept.
3.) It was a throw away vessel on it's last leg, abused and neglected
all its life due to neglect.

I ran several fiberglass boats in the navy, they were the ones not able
to do any rough work. All the LCM's, LCVP's, were made of steel, cept
some of the old Higgins were marine plywood. Fiberglass was for the
delicate gig's, barges, and liberty boats.

Something like
"Build it out of fiberglass in the first place!"

More like.
"Dereliction of duty is a specifical offence in military law. It
includes various elements centred around the avoidance of any duty
which may be properly expected."

"In the US Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) it is contained
within the regulations governing the failure to obey an order or
regulation. It means that one willfully, through negligence or culpable
inefficiency fails to perform one's expected duties. Ineptitude is a
defence against the charge. The maximum penalty in the US is a
bad-conduct discharge, forfeiture of pay and six months confinement.
Acts which are derelict may be charged under more specific offences
such as missing movement, noncompliance with procedural rules,
misbehaviour, malingering, self-injury with intent to avoid service, or
straggling."


But if you're going to get shot at, a couple of steel plates
between you & the bullets is very nice. The only thing
better would be some Kevlar or some of that new fiberglass
tank armor.


yeah...right. Fiberglass tank armor.....

Joe

;)

DSK

Orta Vez
 

I wonder what the weight difference would be, say if Red
Cloud were fiber glass instead of steel.

As a steel boat rusts, does it weigh less?

Scotty


"DSK" wrote in message
...
Scotty wrote:
Think I'll stick with glass. I've heard that 'rust never
sleeps'.


I heard that too. In fact I've heard it several times,
real
REAL loud!

What is the biggest fiber glass boat built?
Is it conceivable that a large ship could be built of
glass?


Dunno about the biggest, the new super-yachts are being
built of fiberglass (well, "composite" but it's basically
fiberglass) upwards of 200' and 700 tons. The Navy had a
class of minesweeps built of fiberglass, don't think they
were as long but they were likely more tonnage.

There's no reason a big ship couldn't be built out of
fiberglass. Nobody's doing it because the facilities are
already in place to build them of steel. It would be
interesting to see if fiberglass commercial hulls could
have
a longer service life.

DSK

Orta Vez
 

DSK wrote:
Scotty wrote:
Think I'll stick with glass. I've heard that 'rust never
sleeps'.


I heard that too. In fact I've heard it several times, real
REAL loud!

What is the biggest fiber glass boat built?
Is it conceivable that a large ship could be built of glass?


Dunno about the biggest, the new super-yachts are being
built of fiberglass (well, "composite" but it's basically
fiberglass) upwards of 200' and 700 tons. The Navy had a
class of minesweeps built of fiberglass, don't think they
were as long but they were likely more tonnage.

There's no reason a big ship couldn't be built out of
fiberglass. Nobody's doing it because the facilities are
already in place to build them of steel. It would be
interesting to see if fiberglass commercial hulls could have
a longer service life.


The Navy typical sells it FG hulls at 10-15 yrs, were it's steel
vessels last an average 30-50 yrs. Check out the surplus auctions.

Fiberglass is way to expensive, fragile, and would have to be 1/2 a ft
thick to match the strength of a steel hull ship. Then the upkeep,
polishing, core rott, scratching, cracking, ect ect ect make's it a
maintance nightmare.

Joe


DSK

Orta Vez
 

Well, there's the rust. Then there's the fact that it's not
as easy to repair as fiberglass. And it rusts.


Joe wrote:
You are out of your mind, Steel is much easier nd cheaper to repair and
can be repaired in most ports around the world.

Fiberglass can be repaired with stuff from Lowes. You don't
even need to be in port. You don't need a welding machine.
Patches or rolls of fiberglass cloth & jugs of resin are a
lot easier to stow than spare steel plates, and they are
much easier to form into the desired shape.




... I could repaire a 3ft
hole in about 3-4 hrs with steel it. take weeks or months on fragile
glass

???

you need to find less lazy workmen.

A 3 ft hole in fiberglass should take about an hour to
repair, then a day to cure. And it wouldn't start rusting
before you'd finished the patch.







Steel punch shot is the way to go on a steel boat.


Cheap and no galvanic corrosion, but less effective as
ballast. Oh well, everything is a trade off.





Have you seen Around the Horn by Irving Johnson?

Yes

... Not enough ballest on
a sailing ship my ass...all the flying P's were steel..

They were also cargo ships. And yes, they would have sailed
much better (not to mention being safer) if they had a
higher ballast ratio.


.... You pulling
these spec's outta thin air or what?


Nope, basic physics.




Well a crappy mold will make a fiberglass hull look like crap, I've
seen such cheap FG hulls it looks like they used hatchets to make the
molds. You need skilled labor doing both tasks.

Agreed.

I assure you there are more skilled welders on earth that FG experts.


Maybe that's true in Texas. Fiberglass is hardly some new
cutting edge voodoo technology, it's only been around about
60 years now. Heck there are 20 year old carbon fiber &
Kevlar boats.

If steel were easier to work then more production boats
would be made of it, since labor cost is the highest factor
in commercial boatbuilding.



As a Navy veteran, I can tell you that infinite man hours
and oceans of red-lead primer are not enough to keep a steel
vessel from rusting away beneath your feet.


How old is Ol Ironsides?


News flash: the USS Constitution is made of wood. "Old
Ironsides" is just a nickname.


1.)Total idiots were in command or your ship or they were inept.

That may have been true

2.) Total idiots were repairing your ship or they were inept.

Also may have been true

3.) It was a throw away vessel on it's last leg, abused and neglected
all its life due to neglect.


That was certainly not true, it was the best in it's class
as determined by INSURV

However it was about 30 years old at that time and had seen
many many many sea miles & hard service.


I ran several fiberglass boats in the navy, they were the ones not able
to do any rough work.

And how many of them were 30 years old?
Actually some of them may have been approaching that, the
Navy started buying fiberglass boats in the mid 1950s.



But if you're going to get shot at, a couple of steel plates
between you & the bullets is very nice. The only thing
better would be some Kevlar or some of that new fiberglass
tank armor.



yeah...right. Fiberglass tank armor.....


Look it up. It's not even top secret any more. News flash:
look for the word "composite" when checking the specs. After
all, do they make bulletproof vests out of steel?

Joe since you already have a steel boat, I'm not going to
try and tell you it's lousy stuff. Besides, it isn't lousy,
it's just not as good (ie strong or durable). Steel is
stronger than wood, but there are more than two choices
these days.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Orta Vez
 

On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 10:28:39 -0400, DSK wrote:

Well, there's the rust. Then there's the fact that it's not
as easy to repair as fiberglass. And it rusts.


Joe wrote:
You are out of your mind, Steel is much easier nd cheaper to repair and
can be repaired in most ports around the world.

Fiberglass can be repaired with stuff from Lowes. You don't
even need to be in port. You don't need a welding machine.
Patches or rolls of fiberglass cloth & jugs of resin are a
lot easier to stow than spare steel plates, and they are
much easier to form into the desired shape.

Having made my living for a while as a welder (on offshore deck
sections) and having done a lot of glass work and chased a lot of core
rot, I'd say it depends on the type of repair. If I needed to repair
a holed hull, steel gets the vote for easier and more reliable. I
would not trust any yard in my area to do a holed (particularly below
the water line) hull in glass. If you don't feather back the edges
properly and back lap the repair, there will be a weak spot do to the
loss of the monolithic nature of the woven roving, mat and cloth. Not
sure I would ever trust it. Not an issue with steel.

That said, I'd still rather have a glass boat. Did someone mention
rust as an issue?

Frank




... I could repaire a 3ft
hole in about 3-4 hrs with steel it. take weeks or months on fragile
glass

???

you need to find less lazy workmen.

A 3 ft hole in fiberglass should take about an hour to
repair, then a day to cure. And it wouldn't start rusting
before you'd finished the patch.







Steel punch shot is the way to go on a steel boat.


Cheap and no galvanic corrosion, but less effective as
ballast. Oh well, everything is a trade off.





Have you seen Around the Horn by Irving Johnson?

Yes

... Not enough ballest on
a sailing ship my ass...all the flying P's were steel..

They were also cargo ships. And yes, they would have sailed
much better (not to mention being safer) if they had a
higher ballast ratio.


.... You pulling
these spec's outta thin air or what?


Nope, basic physics.




Well a crappy mold will make a fiberglass hull look like crap, I've
seen such cheap FG hulls it looks like they used hatchets to make the
molds. You need skilled labor doing both tasks.

Agreed.

I assure you there are more skilled welders on earth that FG experts.


Maybe that's true in Texas. Fiberglass is hardly some new
cutting edge voodoo technology, it's only been around about
60 years now. Heck there are 20 year old carbon fiber &
Kevlar boats.

If steel were easier to work then more production boats
would be made of it, since labor cost is the highest factor
in commercial boatbuilding.



As a Navy veteran, I can tell you that infinite man hours
and oceans of red-lead primer are not enough to keep a steel
vessel from rusting away beneath your feet.


How old is Ol Ironsides?


News flash: the USS Constitution is made of wood. "Old
Ironsides" is just a nickname.


1.)Total idiots were in command or your ship or they were inept.

That may have been true

2.) Total idiots were repairing your ship or they were inept.

Also may have been true

3.) It was a throw away vessel on it's last leg, abused and neglected
all its life due to neglect.


That was certainly not true, it was the best in it's class
as determined by INSURV

However it was about 30 years old at that time and had seen
many many many sea miles & hard service.


I ran several fiberglass boats in the navy, they were the ones not able
to do any rough work.

And how many of them were 30 years old?
Actually some of them may have been approaching that, the
Navy started buying fiberglass boats in the mid 1950s.



But if you're going to get shot at, a couple of steel plates
between you & the bullets is very nice. The only thing
better would be some Kevlar or some of that new fiberglass
tank armor.



yeah...right. Fiberglass tank armor.....


Look it up. It's not even top secret any more. News flash:
look for the word "composite" when checking the specs. After
all, do they make bulletproof vests out of steel?

Joe since you already have a steel boat, I'm not going to
try and tell you it's lousy stuff. Besides, it isn't lousy,
it's just not as good (ie strong or durable). Steel is
stronger than wood, but there are more than two choices
these days.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Orta Vez
 

If it doesn't move paint it. If it moves, salute it. If you're not sure,
salute it and cut down on the drinking.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Well, that's an issue for another discussion. Steel boats
have their disadvantages from my point of view, too ;)


Scotty wrote:
Besides the rust, and being heavy and slow, what are the
disadvantages of a steel boat.


Well, there's the rust. Then there's the fact that it's not as easy to
repair as fiberglass. And it rusts.

It can never be as strong as a well-engineered and well built fiberglass
hull & deck, much less carbon fiber. The biggest disadvantage is the rust,
howewver, which once it starts will never stop and eats away at every part
of the boat, especially the inaccessible crevices which are structurally
critical.

Then there's the issue of galvanic corrosion, not as bad as aluminum but a
dropped wire can eat right thru it, as can a penny in the bilge. The rust
is also a constant problem.

Because the galavanic corrosion, if lead ballast is used it must be very
carefully insulated from the structural parts of the boat (usually done
with fiberglass, which was originally invented as electrical insulation).
Alos because steel is so heavy, it is difficult to design a steel boat
that can carry a high proportion of ballast. Don't forget about rust.

Almost every steel boat will have slight ripples in the metal from
welding, and it will look crummy or else be filled with Bondo. This isn't
really a bad problem as long as the putty doesn't fall off from rust under
it.

As a Navy veteran, I can tell you that infinite man hours and oceans of
red-lead primer are not enough to keep a steel vessel from rusting away
beneath your feet. The first ship I was on actually had fiberglass patches
on the hull where the rust had eaten thru. What does that tell you?
Something like "Build it out of fiberglass in the first place!"

But if you're going to get shot at, a couple of steel plates between you &
the bullets is very nice. The only thing better would be some Kevlar or
some of that new fiberglass tank armor.

;)

DSK