"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..

The one I had was made in China. Chrome lined bbl. Very reliable,
acceptably accurate but the stock was too short for me. I had too many
toys to bother with it, so off it went.

The Chinese guns were okay, but not quite the quality or finish of the
Russian ones. Trouble is you can't find any Russian guns any more; only
Chinese. Same with AK-47s, which, by the way, are a more cheaply-built gun
than the SKS.

No, never been into shotguns. No real reason/prejudice, I just prefer
rifles.

95% of my hunting has been birds--ducks, geese, and quail, with a few
pheasant and grouse thrown in for good measure--so I've used shotguns
extensively. Also shot trap, skeet, and sporting clays for a while, but got
bored with that. My only current shotguns are a Ruger Red Label 12ga. with
26" barrels, and an 18" Mossberg Mariner (flat nickle finish) with a pistol
grip for carrying on the boat. We had a bad experience a couple of years
back, and now won't cruise unarmed. Beyond that, I mostly have
pistols--mostly target guns, but a few hunters as well and some personal
protection pieces. I like wheelguns, too, but a well-made semi-auto pistol
is hard to beat for target or plinking. I have a Hammerli .22 target pistol
with which I've competed for over 15 years and so far it's never had a
malfunction of any sort, beyond primer voids. It's a super gun, and you
don't have to scrounge brass.

Max

Ditto with handguns, except for 22RF I prefer revolvers. Tho
there it is prejudice; I hate looking for lost brass.

PDW

I believe you've hit on my problem. I don't have the Dolby 5.1, so
I'm
betting I'm getting everything compressed into two channels.
Thanx..

Max, even when watching a HD program and listening to the sound thru
your TVs stereo speakers the sound should appear normal. The sound
wouldn't be compressed you would be getting a normal stereo
presentation. Every Dolby 5.1 soundtrack also includes a stereo
soundtrack to allow for backwards compatability. I would check your
TVs menu under the section where sound adjustments can be made and see
if you can choose between something like "normal" "stereo" "surround"
etc. If you can, try choosing "normal" or "stereo" Sometimes those
other fake matrix surround selections can sound quite weird.

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article , Bob Crantz
wrote:

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..

Shrug. My memory is out about the chambers & pressures, but I'm right
about the case sizes. I've reloaded *heaps* of boxer primed ex military
brass, used to buy it for peanuts at gun shows, fired it
interchangeably with commercial brass in both a Rem 700 Varmint and a
Ruger Mini-14. However, it's quite safe to fire 223 Rem ammo in a
military 5.56 NATO chamber. Ruger Mini-14's have been chambered for
both and I used to use one regularly with ex mil 5.56 NATO ammo without
any noticeable ill effects. Maybe because the Rem 700 was a high
quality rifle not a cheap POS.

http://www.thegunzone.com/556v223.html has some interesting comments.

The most likely effect of an over pressure round is a backed out primer
and a possibly binding action, not a rifle going 'kaboom and messing up
your face'. Not desirable, but not the end of the world either. Ask any
serious handloader who's worked up 'hot' loads a bit at a time.

Still, you learn something new every day, hey? No need to thank me for
expanding your knowledge base. If I get bored I'll dig out my reloading
manuals and compare bullet weights & velocities. I assume you do
understand the TANSTAAFL concept insofar as it's pretty hard to get
higher MV with the same bullet weight and less chamber pressure. Of
course that depends somewhat on the powder you've used, but frankly,
I'm not that interested these days and if all you want to do is
endanger your neighbours, you don't need to reload your own ammo.

PDW

The military cases are thicker than commercial and the primer is swaged.

Yep. I used to use a primer pocket reamer to remove the crimp after
punching out the primer.

The
military case holds a little less powder so the CUP (copper units of
pressure) is higher with a commercial load in a mil case. I've separated
cases with occurs just above the base. It can be a crack to complete
separation. I've done it in military semi autos and bolt action rifles.

Never had this happen with 5.56, have seen it happen with .243 reloads.
I put it down to having my full length sizing die set too fine and
moving the case shoulder back a bit.

It happens more often after 5 or so reloads. If the case is too long it will
happen too. I trim the cases with each reload and use a go/no go gauge each
time.



A
modern firearm is designed to blow the separation away from the face. The
gun does not blow up. You'll notice the headstamp flattened out and the
primer pocket flattened. With rifle rounds, you can't double charge the
load
as in pistols so the chances of ever loading something that can burst a
receiver is almost non existent.

IIRC I was using a compressed load of WW 748 - *no* chance of a double
load at all.

I use BLC-2. I've used 4046, 4350, and a few others. The BLC-2 does 7.62 and
5.56 ok.


OTOH using Unique in 44 Mag cases it was certainly possible. Never
happened to me tho.

PDW

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article , Bob Crantz
wrote:

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article .com,
Ringmaster wrote:

My first plan would also be to get out of town. But remember I said a
SHTF condition. Shotgun would be to unwieldy inside of a house. Cut
the barrel off and that's a problem with the law. AR15 packs plenty
of
punch if you are using 65 or 75 gr ammo. Normal is 45 or 55 gr. Also
most AR15s shoot 5.56 which is harder hitting than 223. There's
enough
dead Iraqs to prove the AR is a good enough weapon.

Do everyone a favour. DO NOT own a gun until you learn something (more)
about them.

1. Using a rifle inside a house is plain stupid. A short barrelled
shotgun is far more useful.

2. Using heavy FMJ bullets is also stupid. Use hollowpoints or soft
nose rounds. The object is to transfer the kinetic energy into the
target, not the wall, next house, etc etc.

3. There is NO DIFFERENCE between 5.56 NATO and .223 except the labels
on the boxes. Go look up the SAAMI ammo spec if you don't believe me.

I could dig out my reloading manuals and quote loads, bullet weights
etc but frankly, I don't give a damn. I do thank my situation tho,
which is not having you for a next door neighbour.

PDW

Don't forget bullet stability as a function twist rate and bullet weight
for
the 5.56.

Yeah but not real relevant at sub-50m ranges AFAIK. And Vito's right,
if you start popping bad guys further away than that, it's going to be
real difficult explaining it to the cops as self defence.

PDW

I wouldn't use a .223 for close in shooting people in a populated setting.
I'd use a 38 or 9 mm.

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article .com,
Ringmaster wrote:

.... which makes it longer than an 18" barrelled shotgun. Good
choice.

How many times do I need to type "it's illegal" to own a sawed off
shotgun. At least in my state.

I dunno. Is it a mantra you chant? Anyway, while no doubt you're
incorrect, keep chanting.

Try a Google search on 'shotgun minimum legal barrel length USA' and
you'll find that the min legal length for a shotgun is 18", as I stated
above. Nowhere did I mention anything about a sawed off shotgun, and
either you know it and are trying to obfuscate, or you actually don't
know that an 18" barrelled gun is legal. So you've learnt something new
- again.

FWIW, in fact it is NOT illegal to own a sawed off shotgun, *unless*
you reduce the bbl length to less than 18". So you're wrong when you
make general statements, too.


Yep, just what you need for home defence, optics.....

I'm not talking 9x scopes here. Red dot or holigraphic optics are
perfect for defense, home or otherwise, since you shoot with both eyes
open. Have you seen those.

I've seen them, used them. A laser dot sight isn't generally referred
to as an optical sight. They have pluses & minuses but I don't think
one would be a bad thing to have on a gun used at 'point & shoot'
ranges, personally.

The military uses them every day.

Yeah and they *train* with them regularly too. How much range time are
you going to put in doing laser dot 'point & shoot'?

Your
trying to come off as an expert here but you continue to look
uneducated on the topic.

OK, fine. You've demonstrated the same level of knowledge of guns as
Bobsprit does about router bits. I'm happy to ignore you.

PDW

Thompson sold a 14" .410 barrel for the Contender pistol.

Glory!

In article , Bob Crantz
wrote:

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article , Bob Crantz
wrote:

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article .com,
Ringmaster wrote:

My first plan would also be to get out of town. But remember I said a
SHTF condition. Shotgun would be to unwieldy inside of a house. Cut
the barrel off and that's a problem with the law. AR15 packs plenty
of
punch if you are using 65 or 75 gr ammo. Normal is 45 or 55 gr. Also
most AR15s shoot 5.56 which is harder hitting than 223. There's
enough
dead Iraqs to prove the AR is a good enough weapon.

Do everyone a favour. DO NOT own a gun until you learn something (more)
about them.

1. Using a rifle inside a house is plain stupid. A short barrelled
shotgun is far more useful.

2. Using heavy FMJ bullets is also stupid. Use hollowpoints or soft
nose rounds. The object is to transfer the kinetic energy into the
target, not the wall, next house, etc etc.

3. There is NO DIFFERENCE between 5.56 NATO and .223 except the labels
on the boxes. Go look up the SAAMI ammo spec if you don't believe me.

I could dig out my reloading manuals and quote loads, bullet weights
etc but frankly, I don't give a damn. I do thank my situation tho,
which is not having you for a next door neighbour.

PDW

Don't forget bullet stability as a function twist rate and bullet weight
for
the 5.56.

Yeah but not real relevant at sub-50m ranges AFAIK. And Vito's right,
if you start popping bad guys further away than that, it's going to be
real difficult explaining it to the cops as self defence.

PDW

I wouldn't use a .223 for close in shooting people in a populated setting.
I'd use a 38 or 9 mm.

Hey, try telling Ringmaster. I've given up. Personally I'd use a 44Mag
carbine like my old Ruger. Not a military type weapon so no 'evil'
connotations, 18" bbl, light, handy & powerful. If I needed more than 5
rounds, it'd be a firefight against too many people and I'd lose
anyway, so wouldn't start.

One of the side effects of smashing my left elbow so badly is I can't
use a Weaver stance any more. Pretty much out of pistols these days,
tho I may take up black powder silhouette just to keep my eye in.
Always did like those Ruger Old Army's in s/s.

PDW

In article , Bob Crantz
wrote:

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article .com,
Ringmaster wrote:

.... which makes it longer than an 18" barrelled shotgun. Good
choice.

How many times do I need to type "it's illegal" to own a sawed off
shotgun. At least in my state.

I dunno. Is it a mantra you chant? Anyway, while no doubt you're
incorrect, keep chanting.

Try a Google search on 'shotgun minimum legal barrel length USA' and
you'll find that the min legal length for a shotgun is 18", as I stated
above. Nowhere did I mention anything about a sawed off shotgun, and
either you know it and are trying to obfuscate, or you actually don't
know that an 18" barrelled gun is legal. So you've learnt something new
- again.

FWIW, in fact it is NOT illegal to own a sawed off shotgun, *unless*
you reduce the bbl length to less than 18". So you're wrong when you
make general statements, too.


Yep, just what you need for home defence, optics.....

I'm not talking 9x scopes here. Red dot or holigraphic optics are
perfect for defense, home or otherwise, since you shoot with both eyes
open. Have you seen those.

I've seen them, used them. A laser dot sight isn't generally referred
to as an optical sight. They have pluses & minuses but I don't think
one would be a bad thing to have on a gun used at 'point & shoot'
ranges, personally.

The military uses them every day.

Yeah and they *train* with them regularly too. How much range time are
you going to put in doing laser dot 'point & shoot'?

Your
trying to come off as an expert here but you continue to look
uneducated on the topic.

OK, fine. You've demonstrated the same level of knowledge of guns as
Bobsprit does about router bits. I'm happy to ignore you.

PDW

Thompson sold a 14" .410 barrel for the Contender pistol.

Yeah but it wasn't a smoothbore was it? Never paid a lot of attention
to those so I dunno, but I'd have thought it'd fall under the
restricted class if it wasn't rifled.

PDW

"Bob Crantz" wrote
Ever read any Peter Kokalis?

Doesn't ring a bell, maybe. Should I?

"Ringmaster" wrote
That's only the Winchester statement. They are not the only ones who
speak on the topic. Read the SAAMI website. Anybody that tells you
there is no difference between a 223 and a 5.56 doesn't know what they
are talking about. Once again ...... SAAMI states that it is an unsafe
practice to shoot 5.56 in a gun that is only designes to shoot 223.
They are the experts.


OK, but that begs the question "Why design or buy a rifle designed to shoot only
223?". All my experience has been with AR-15s and clones the kids in our club
use to shoot military matches so I didn't know there were two seperate 223
rounds til now (Thanks for the info).

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article
. net,
Maxprop wrote:

"Ringmaster" wrote in message

oups.com..
..


How many times do I need to type "it's illegal" to own
a sawed off
shotgun. At least in my state.

Sawed-off? Nothing sawed-off about a shotgun with a
federally-legal 18"
barrel.

I don't think he knows that, Max, and he doesn't seem real
interested
in learning despite my saying it, so I quit.

Far as I can see, he's bought a new boy toy. Nothing wrong
with that
but it's like Bobsprit talking about using an angle
grinder to polish
gelcoat, or his famous powered router bits. Just because
you can or
might own something doesn't make it a good tool for a
particular job.

He's got a rifle that's at least as long as a legal
shotgun, fires ammo
with way excessive range and penetration for an
urban/suburban
situation, and won't be as effective at sub 50m ranges,
let alone sub
10m ranges, as the shotgun. But hey, it has a big
magazine, a folding
stock and a flash hider. Probably came in way cool black,
too. With a
laser dot sight, no less, just like the military use.


If he likes it, and it gives him piece of mind, then it's
the perfect weapon, for him.

SV