"DSK" wrote
.... IMHO a shotgun would be much preferable.

http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh25-e.htm

I agree but stick to a Mossburg 500 or Remington 870 with a *wood* stock to
avoid the "Assault Rifle" stigma. http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh17-e.htm

"Scotty" wrote in message
...

"DSK" wrote
Understood. But there is no disaster so bad that the
lawyers
will be permanently gone.

Rats!

Also sharks, slime, pond scum, and vultures.

Or were you just issuing an expletive?

Max

Maxprop wrote:
"Scotty" wrote in message
...
"DSK" wrote
Understood. But there is no disaster so bad that the
lawyers
will be permanently gone.
Rats!

Also sharks, slime, pond scum, and vultures.

Or were you just issuing an expletive?

Max


You forgot the flies and cockroaches....

Amen!

"Maxprop" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Bob Crantz" wrote in message
. ..

"Ringmaster" wrote in message
oups.com...
one is better off with a different means of deterrent than a
gun.

Oh, I forgot to ask what better deterrent might be available under SHTF
conditions? SHTF conditions are no cops, no electricity, no
transportation, no nothing and roving bands of unafraid criminals are
coming. I'm not a gun nut so I'll truly listen.


Flamethrower.

What are you going to use to keep the cops at bay?

That .223 is good for pigs, coyotes and squirrels. Get a real gun that
shoots real bullets. H&K Model 91 is a good start:

http://www.hkpro.com/hk91.htm

Amen to that. Nothing quite like a .308 or 7.62x51 NATO for stopping a
thug with one shot.

Max

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article .com,
Ringmaster wrote:

one is better off with a different means of deterrent than a
gun.

Oh, I forgot to ask what better deterrent might be available under SHTF
conditions? SHTF conditions are no cops, no electricity, no
transportation, no nothing and roving bands of unafraid criminals are
coming. I'm not a gun nut so I'll truly listen.

My picks if I didn't care much about collateral damage:

1. flamethrower. Bit difficult to get hold of, tho.

2. pump action shotgun loaded with buckshot.

3. Any decent semiauto .308 loaded with 150 gr JHP

4. Any decent semiauto .223 loaded with 50gr JHP.

The 308 loaded with FMJ is going to go thru the bad guy, his buddy
behind him, the house behind *him* and maybe a few other items in the
way. With JHP or a nice Nosler solid base boat tail soft nose, the bad
guy is basically going to lose a limb with a hit there, or his chest is
gonna dissolve.

PDW

Nosler Partition or Speer Grand Slam!

For some real fun, try a 220 gr BTHP in a .308. Kicks like a mule!

Glory!

"katy" wrote in message
...
Peter Wiley wrote:
In article .com,
Ringmaster wrote:

one is better off with a different means of deterrent than a
gun.

Oh, I forgot to ask what better deterrent might be available under SHTF
conditions? SHTF conditions are no cops, no electricity, no
transportation, no nothing and roving bands of unafraid criminals are
coming. I'm not a gun nut so I'll truly listen.

My picks if I didn't care much about collateral damage:

1. flamethrower. Bit difficult to get hold of, tho.

2. pump action shotgun loaded with buckshot.

3. Any decent semiauto .308 loaded with 150 gr JHP

4. Any decent semiauto .223 loaded with 50gr JHP.

The 308 loaded with FMJ is going to go thru the bad guy, his buddy
behind him, the house behind *him* and maybe a few other items in the
way. With JHP or a nice Nosler solid base boat tail soft nose, the bad
guy is basically going to lose a limb with a hit there, or his chest is
gonna dissolve. PDW

You can make your own homemade flamethrower....you use a can of
hairspray...you have to be careful, though, because sometimes it backfires
and then....you're gone....

The beehive and rolling pin would make me run.

"Vito" wrote in message
...
"DSK" wrote
Scotty wrote:
In the SHTF situation that Loco is talking about, I'd worry
about staying alive first and lawsuits much later.

Understood. But there is no disaster so bad that the lawyers
will be permanently gone.

If you save your home from looters during a disaster, and
lose it to a lawsuit soon after, what good did you do?


That's a point that cannot be overemphasized. Massad Ayoob has written
several
books on the subject and I harp on it whenever I teach a firearms class.
Remember, the only LEGAL reason for using deadly force is that you
*believe*
that your (or a loved one's) life is endangered and that you will have to
prove
that. Simple robbery is not enough. So make it easy to prove - to police,
prosecutors and a jury if necessary. Make sure any/all witnesses believe
that
you acted out of justifiable fear. Tell police "that murderer forced me
to
shoot him. I was so scared". That's hard to pull off if you just happened
to
whack him, and the kid in the next block, with a military style weapon. A
pump
shotgun suitable for skeet shooting or a lever action 30-30, is alot
easier to
explain than a military rifle.


Ever read any Peter Kokalis?

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article .com,
Ringmaster wrote:

My first plan would also be to get out of town. But remember I said a
SHTF condition. Shotgun would be to unwieldy inside of a house. Cut
the barrel off and that's a problem with the law. AR15 packs plenty of
punch if you are using 65 or 75 gr ammo. Normal is 45 or 55 gr. Also
most AR15s shoot 5.56 which is harder hitting than 223. There's enough
dead Iraqs to prove the AR is a good enough weapon.

Do everyone a favour. DO NOT own a gun until you learn something (more)
about them.

1. Using a rifle inside a house is plain stupid. A short barrelled
shotgun is far more useful.

2. Using heavy FMJ bullets is also stupid. Use hollowpoints or soft
nose rounds. The object is to transfer the kinetic energy into the
target, not the wall, next house, etc etc.

3. There is NO DIFFERENCE between 5.56 NATO and .223 except the labels
on the boxes. Go look up the SAAMI ammo spec if you don't believe me.

I could dig out my reloading manuals and quote loads, bullet weights
etc but frankly, I don't give a damn. I do thank my situation tho,
which is not having you for a next door neighbour.

PDW

Don't forget bullet stability as a function twist rate and bullet weight for
the 5.56.

Amen!

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article .com,
Ringmaster wrote:

Do everyone a favour. DO NOT own a gun until you learn something
(more)
about them.

Another expert? Read on boy.

Hey, I've only been an active hunter, reloader and target shooter for
30+ years so far. I'm far from an expert. OTOH you admit you're a
newbie.

1. Using a rifle inside a house is plain stupid. A short barrelled

shotgun is far more useful.

I already said that's a problem with the law

Riiiight. So a rifle with a 16.01" bbl length is less unwieldy than a
pistol gripped shotgun with a 18.01" bbl length. Suuure. If you think
so.



2. Using heavy FMJ bullets is also stupid. Use hollowpoints or
soft
nose rounds. The object is to transfer the kinetic energy into the
target, not the wall, next house, etc etc.

When did I ever say I would be using FMJ for home protection? So
aparently you are stupid since you can't read or your mind make things
up.

Good, you've learnt something without having to ask. Your neighbours
may live to be pleased, even if you aren't.



3. There is NO DIFFERENCE between 5.56 NATO and .223 except the
labels
on the boxes. Go look up the SAAMI ammo spec if you don't believe me.


And here is where you prove that you don't know **** about what you
speak. You should read the SAAMI specs. Rifles that are chambered for
223 only can possibly go kaboom and mess up your face if an attempt is
made to fire 5.56.

Shrug. My memory is out about the chambers & pressures, but I'm right
about the case sizes. I've reloaded *heaps* of boxer primed ex military
brass, used to buy it for peanuts at gun shows, fired it
interchangeably with commercial brass in both a Rem 700 Varmint and a
Ruger Mini-14. However, it's quite safe to fire 223 Rem ammo in a
military 5.56 NATO chamber. Ruger Mini-14's have been chambered for
both and I used to use one regularly with ex mil 5.56 NATO ammo without
any noticeable ill effects. Maybe because the Rem 700 was a high
quality rifle not a cheap POS.

http://www.thegunzone.com/556v223.html has some interesting comments.

The most likely effect of an over pressure round is a backed out primer
and a possibly binding action, not a rifle going 'kaboom and messing up
your face'. Not desirable, but not the end of the world either. Ask any
serious handloader who's worked up 'hot' loads a bit at a time.

Still, you learn something new every day, hey? No need to thank me for
expanding your knowledge base. If I get bored I'll dig out my reloading
manuals and compare bullet weights & velocities. I assume you do
understand the TANSTAAFL concept insofar as it's pretty hard to get
higher MV with the same bullet weight and less chamber pressure. Of
course that depends somewhat on the powder you've used, but frankly,
I'm not that interested these days and if all you want to do is
endanger your neighbours, you don't need to reload your own ammo.

PDW

The military cases are thicker than commercial and the primer is swaged. The
military case holds a little less powder so the CUP (copper units of
pressure) is higher with a commercial load in a mil case. I've separated
cases with occurs just above the base. It can be a crack to complete
separation. I've done it in military semi autos and bolt action rifles. A
modern firearm is designed to blow the separation away from the face. The
gun does not blow up. You'll notice the headstamp flattened out and the
primer pocket flattened. With rifle rounds, you can't double charge the load
as in pistols so the chances of ever loading something that can burst a
receiver is almost non existent.
Glory!

"Ringmaster" wrote in message
oups.com...
Read if you don't want your rifle to go KABOOM.

http://www.winchester.com/lawenforce...spx?storyid=11


It didn't mention that military chamber are also .010" oversize in diameter
to allow for better case extraction.

It also does not mention the bullet weight. The 45 grain bullet is much
shorter than a 65 grain bullet. If you were to seat the 45 gr bullet to the
specificed length given in the article it would not be a mil spec round.

That article is just an attempt to disclaim liability.

Glory!