My first plan would also be to get out of town. But remember I said a
SHTF condition. Shotgun would be to unwieldy inside of a house. Cut
the barrel off and that's a problem with the law. AR15 packs plenty of
punch if you are using 65 or 75 gr ammo. Normal is 45 or 55 gr. Also
most AR15s shoot 5.56 which is harder hitting than 223. There's enough
dead Iraqs to prove the AR is a good enough weapon.

In article .com,
Ringmaster wrote:

My first plan would also be to get out of town. But remember I said a
SHTF condition. Shotgun would be to unwieldy inside of a house. Cut
the barrel off and that's a problem with the law. AR15 packs plenty of
punch if you are using 65 or 75 gr ammo. Normal is 45 or 55 gr. Also
most AR15s shoot 5.56 which is harder hitting than 223. There's enough
dead Iraqs to prove the AR is a good enough weapon.

Do everyone a favour. DO NOT own a gun until you learn something (more)
about them.

1. Using a rifle inside a house is plain stupid. A short barrelled
shotgun is far more useful.

2. Using heavy FMJ bullets is also stupid. Use hollowpoints or soft
nose rounds. The object is to transfer the kinetic energy into the
target, not the wall, next house, etc etc.

3. There is NO DIFFERENCE between 5.56 NATO and .223 except the labels
on the boxes. Go look up the SAAMI ammo spec if you don't believe me.

I could dig out my reloading manuals and quote loads, bullet weights
etc but frankly, I don't give a damn. I do thank my situation tho,
which is not having you for a next door neighbour.

PDW

Do everyone a favour. DO NOT own a gun until you learn something
(more)
about them.

Another expert? Read on boy.

1. Using a rifle inside a house is plain stupid. A short barrelled

shotgun is far more useful.

I already said that's a problem with the law


2. Using heavy FMJ bullets is also stupid. Use hollowpoints or
soft
nose rounds. The object is to transfer the kinetic energy into the
target, not the wall, next house, etc etc.

When did I ever say I would be using FMJ for home protection? So
aparently you are stupid since you can't read or your mind make things
up.


3. There is NO DIFFERENCE between 5.56 NATO and .223 except the
labels
on the boxes. Go look up the SAAMI ammo spec if you don't believe me.


And here is where you prove that you don't know **** about what you
speak. You should read the SAAMI specs. Rifles that are chambered for
223 only can possibly go kaboom and mess up your face if an attempt is
made to fire 5.56. Yes the two rounds have basicly the same exterior
dimensions BUT the 5.56 is usually loaded to produce higher velocity
and chamber pressures. The difference comes in the chambering of the
rifle and that difference is in "leade". It may LOOK the same but a
5.56 round has a slightly longer lead than a 223. SAMMI considers the
use of 5.56 ammo in a rifle that is chambered for 223 only as AN UNSAFE
AMMUNITION COMBINATION. There are also a couple of additional minor
measurement differences. You do a web search and check it out. Now
you check out the SAAMI website and get an education.

In article .com,
Ringmaster wrote:

Do everyone a favour. DO NOT own a gun until you learn something
(more)
about them.

Another expert? Read on boy.

Hey, I've only been an active hunter, reloader and target shooter for
30+ years so far. I'm far from an expert. OTOH you admit you're a
newbie.

1. Using a rifle inside a house is plain stupid. A short barrelled

shotgun is far more useful.

I already said that's a problem with the law

Riiiight. So a rifle with a 16.01" bbl length is less unwieldy than a
pistol gripped shotgun with a 18.01" bbl length. Suuure. If you think
so.



2. Using heavy FMJ bullets is also stupid. Use hollowpoints or
soft
nose rounds. The object is to transfer the kinetic energy into the
target, not the wall, next house, etc etc.

When did I ever say I would be using FMJ for home protection? So
aparently you are stupid since you can't read or your mind make things
up.

Good, you've learnt something without having to ask. Your neighbours
may live to be pleased, even if you aren't.



3. There is NO DIFFERENCE between 5.56 NATO and .223 except the
labels
on the boxes. Go look up the SAAMI ammo spec if you don't believe me.


And here is where you prove that you don't know **** about what you
speak. You should read the SAAMI specs. Rifles that are chambered for
223 only can possibly go kaboom and mess up your face if an attempt is
made to fire 5.56.

Shrug. My memory is out about the chambers & pressures, but I'm right
about the case sizes. I've reloaded *heaps* of boxer primed ex military
brass, used to buy it for peanuts at gun shows, fired it
interchangeably with commercial brass in both a Rem 700 Varmint and a
Ruger Mini-14. However, it's quite safe to fire 223 Rem ammo in a
military 5.56 NATO chamber. Ruger Mini-14's have been chambered for
both and I used to use one regularly with ex mil 5.56 NATO ammo without
any noticeable ill effects. Maybe because the Rem 700 was a high
quality rifle not a cheap POS.

http://www.thegunzone.com/556v223.html has some interesting comments.

The most likely effect of an over pressure round is a backed out primer
and a possibly binding action, not a rifle going 'kaboom and messing up
your face'. Not desirable, but not the end of the world either. Ask any
serious handloader who's worked up 'hot' loads a bit at a time.

Still, you learn something new every day, hey? No need to thank me for
expanding your knowledge base. If I get bored I'll dig out my reloading
manuals and compare bullet weights & velocities. I assume you do
understand the TANSTAAFL concept insofar as it's pretty hard to get
higher MV with the same bullet weight and less chamber pressure. Of
course that depends somewhat on the powder you've used, but frankly,
I'm not that interested these days and if all you want to do is
endanger your neighbours, you don't need to reload your own ammo.

PDW

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article .com,
Ringmaster wrote:

Do everyone a favour. DO NOT own a gun until you learn something
(more)
about them.

Another expert? Read on boy.

Hey, I've only been an active hunter, reloader and target shooter for
30+ years so far. I'm far from an expert. OTOH you admit you're a
newbie.

1. Using a rifle inside a house is plain stupid. A short barrelled

shotgun is far more useful.

I already said that's a problem with the law

Riiiight. So a rifle with a 16.01" bbl length is less unwieldy than a
pistol gripped shotgun with a 18.01" bbl length. Suuure. If you think
so.



2. Using heavy FMJ bullets is also stupid. Use hollowpoints or
soft
nose rounds. The object is to transfer the kinetic energy into the
target, not the wall, next house, etc etc.

When did I ever say I would be using FMJ for home protection? So
aparently you are stupid since you can't read or your mind make things
up.

Good, you've learnt something without having to ask. Your neighbours
may live to be pleased, even if you aren't.



3. There is NO DIFFERENCE between 5.56 NATO and .223 except the
labels
on the boxes. Go look up the SAAMI ammo spec if you don't believe me.


And here is where you prove that you don't know **** about what you
speak. You should read the SAAMI specs. Rifles that are chambered for
223 only can possibly go kaboom and mess up your face if an attempt is
made to fire 5.56.

Shrug. My memory is out about the chambers & pressures, but I'm right
about the case sizes. I've reloaded *heaps* of boxer primed ex military
brass, used to buy it for peanuts at gun shows, fired it
interchangeably with commercial brass in both a Rem 700 Varmint and a
Ruger Mini-14. However, it's quite safe to fire 223 Rem ammo in a
military 5.56 NATO chamber. Ruger Mini-14's have been chambered for
both and I used to use one regularly with ex mil 5.56 NATO ammo without
any noticeable ill effects. Maybe because the Rem 700 was a high
quality rifle not a cheap POS.

http://www.thegunzone.com/556v223.html has some interesting comments.

The most likely effect of an over pressure round is a backed out primer
and a possibly binding action, not a rifle going 'kaboom and messing up
your face'. Not desirable, but not the end of the world either. Ask any
serious handloader who's worked up 'hot' loads a bit at a time.

Still, you learn something new every day, hey? No need to thank me for
expanding your knowledge base. If I get bored I'll dig out my reloading
manuals and compare bullet weights & velocities. I assume you do
understand the TANSTAAFL concept insofar as it's pretty hard to get
higher MV with the same bullet weight and less chamber pressure. Of
course that depends somewhat on the powder you've used, but frankly,
I'm not that interested these days and if all you want to do is
endanger your neighbours, you don't need to reload your own ammo.

PDW

The military cases are thicker than commercial and the primer is swaged. The
military case holds a little less powder so the CUP (copper units of
pressure) is higher with a commercial load in a mil case. I've separated
cases with occurs just above the base. It can be a crack to complete
separation. I've done it in military semi autos and bolt action rifles. A
modern firearm is designed to blow the separation away from the face. The
gun does not blow up. You'll notice the headstamp flattened out and the
primer pocket flattened. With rifle rounds, you can't double charge the load
as in pistols so the chances of ever loading something that can burst a
receiver is almost non existent.
Glory!

In article , Bob Crantz
wrote:

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..

Shrug. My memory is out about the chambers & pressures, but I'm right
about the case sizes. I've reloaded *heaps* of boxer primed ex military
brass, used to buy it for peanuts at gun shows, fired it
interchangeably with commercial brass in both a Rem 700 Varmint and a
Ruger Mini-14. However, it's quite safe to fire 223 Rem ammo in a
military 5.56 NATO chamber. Ruger Mini-14's have been chambered for
both and I used to use one regularly with ex mil 5.56 NATO ammo without
any noticeable ill effects. Maybe because the Rem 700 was a high
quality rifle not a cheap POS.

http://www.thegunzone.com/556v223.html has some interesting comments.

The most likely effect of an over pressure round is a backed out primer
and a possibly binding action, not a rifle going 'kaboom and messing up
your face'. Not desirable, but not the end of the world either. Ask any
serious handloader who's worked up 'hot' loads a bit at a time.

Still, you learn something new every day, hey? No need to thank me for
expanding your knowledge base. If I get bored I'll dig out my reloading
manuals and compare bullet weights & velocities. I assume you do
understand the TANSTAAFL concept insofar as it's pretty hard to get
higher MV with the same bullet weight and less chamber pressure. Of
course that depends somewhat on the powder you've used, but frankly,
I'm not that interested these days and if all you want to do is
endanger your neighbours, you don't need to reload your own ammo.

PDW

The military cases are thicker than commercial and the primer is swaged.

Yep. I used to use a primer pocket reamer to remove the crimp after
punching out the primer.

The
military case holds a little less powder so the CUP (copper units of
pressure) is higher with a commercial load in a mil case. I've separated
cases with occurs just above the base. It can be a crack to complete
separation. I've done it in military semi autos and bolt action rifles.

Never had this happen with 5.56, have seen it happen with .243 reloads.
I put it down to having my full length sizing die set too fine and
moving the case shoulder back a bit.

A
modern firearm is designed to blow the separation away from the face. The
gun does not blow up. You'll notice the headstamp flattened out and the
primer pocket flattened. With rifle rounds, you can't double charge the load
as in pistols so the chances of ever loading something that can burst a
receiver is almost non existent.

IIRC I was using a compressed load of WW 748 - *no* chance of a double
load at all.

OTOH using Unique in 44 Mag cases it was certainly possible. Never
happened to me tho.

PDW

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article , Bob Crantz
wrote:

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..

Shrug. My memory is out about the chambers & pressures, but I'm right
about the case sizes. I've reloaded *heaps* of boxer primed ex military
brass, used to buy it for peanuts at gun shows, fired it
interchangeably with commercial brass in both a Rem 700 Varmint and a
Ruger Mini-14. However, it's quite safe to fire 223 Rem ammo in a
military 5.56 NATO chamber. Ruger Mini-14's have been chambered for
both and I used to use one regularly with ex mil 5.56 NATO ammo without
any noticeable ill effects. Maybe because the Rem 700 was a high
quality rifle not a cheap POS.

http://www.thegunzone.com/556v223.html has some interesting comments.

The most likely effect of an over pressure round is a backed out primer
and a possibly binding action, not a rifle going 'kaboom and messing up
your face'. Not desirable, but not the end of the world either. Ask any
serious handloader who's worked up 'hot' loads a bit at a time.

Still, you learn something new every day, hey? No need to thank me for
expanding your knowledge base. If I get bored I'll dig out my reloading
manuals and compare bullet weights & velocities. I assume you do
understand the TANSTAAFL concept insofar as it's pretty hard to get
higher MV with the same bullet weight and less chamber pressure. Of
course that depends somewhat on the powder you've used, but frankly,
I'm not that interested these days and if all you want to do is
endanger your neighbours, you don't need to reload your own ammo.

PDW

The military cases are thicker than commercial and the primer is swaged.

Yep. I used to use a primer pocket reamer to remove the crimp after
punching out the primer.

The
military case holds a little less powder so the CUP (copper units of
pressure) is higher with a commercial load in a mil case. I've separated
cases with occurs just above the base. It can be a crack to complete
separation. I've done it in military semi autos and bolt action rifles.

Never had this happen with 5.56, have seen it happen with .243 reloads.
I put it down to having my full length sizing die set too fine and
moving the case shoulder back a bit.

It happens more often after 5 or so reloads. If the case is too long it will
happen too. I trim the cases with each reload and use a go/no go gauge each
time.



A
modern firearm is designed to blow the separation away from the face. The
gun does not blow up. You'll notice the headstamp flattened out and the
primer pocket flattened. With rifle rounds, you can't double charge the
load
as in pistols so the chances of ever loading something that can burst a
receiver is almost non existent.

IIRC I was using a compressed load of WW 748 - *no* chance of a double
load at all.

I use BLC-2. I've used 4046, 4350, and a few others. The BLC-2 does 7.62 and
5.56 ok.


OTOH using Unique in 44 Mag cases it was certainly possible. Never
happened to me tho.

PDW

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article .com,
Ringmaster wrote:

My first plan would also be to get out of town. But remember I said a
SHTF condition. Shotgun would be to unwieldy inside of a house. Cut
the barrel off and that's a problem with the law. AR15 packs plenty of
punch if you are using 65 or 75 gr ammo. Normal is 45 or 55 gr. Also
most AR15s shoot 5.56 which is harder hitting than 223. There's enough
dead Iraqs to prove the AR is a good enough weapon.

Do everyone a favour. DO NOT own a gun until you learn something (more)
about them.

1. Using a rifle inside a house is plain stupid. A short barrelled
shotgun is far more useful.

2. Using heavy FMJ bullets is also stupid. Use hollowpoints or soft
nose rounds. The object is to transfer the kinetic energy into the
target, not the wall, next house, etc etc.

3. There is NO DIFFERENCE between 5.56 NATO and .223 except the labels
on the boxes. Go look up the SAAMI ammo spec if you don't believe me.

I could dig out my reloading manuals and quote loads, bullet weights
etc but frankly, I don't give a damn. I do thank my situation tho,
which is not having you for a next door neighbour.

PDW

Don't forget bullet stability as a function twist rate and bullet weight for
the 5.56.

Amen!

In article , Bob Crantz
wrote:

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article .com,
Ringmaster wrote:

My first plan would also be to get out of town. But remember I said a
SHTF condition. Shotgun would be to unwieldy inside of a house. Cut
the barrel off and that's a problem with the law. AR15 packs plenty of
punch if you are using 65 or 75 gr ammo. Normal is 45 or 55 gr. Also
most AR15s shoot 5.56 which is harder hitting than 223. There's enough
dead Iraqs to prove the AR is a good enough weapon.

Do everyone a favour. DO NOT own a gun until you learn something (more)
about them.

1. Using a rifle inside a house is plain stupid. A short barrelled
shotgun is far more useful.

2. Using heavy FMJ bullets is also stupid. Use hollowpoints or soft
nose rounds. The object is to transfer the kinetic energy into the
target, not the wall, next house, etc etc.

3. There is NO DIFFERENCE between 5.56 NATO and .223 except the labels
on the boxes. Go look up the SAAMI ammo spec if you don't believe me.

I could dig out my reloading manuals and quote loads, bullet weights
etc but frankly, I don't give a damn. I do thank my situation tho,
which is not having you for a next door neighbour.

PDW

Don't forget bullet stability as a function twist rate and bullet weight for
the 5.56.

Yeah but not real relevant at sub-50m ranges AFAIK. And Vito's right,
if you start popping bad guys further away than that, it's going to be
real difficult explaining it to the cops as self defence.

PDW

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article , Bob Crantz
wrote:

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article .com,
Ringmaster wrote:

My first plan would also be to get out of town. But remember I said a
SHTF condition. Shotgun would be to unwieldy inside of a house. Cut
the barrel off and that's a problem with the law. AR15 packs plenty
of
punch if you are using 65 or 75 gr ammo. Normal is 45 or 55 gr. Also
most AR15s shoot 5.56 which is harder hitting than 223. There's
enough
dead Iraqs to prove the AR is a good enough weapon.

Do everyone a favour. DO NOT own a gun until you learn something (more)
about them.

1. Using a rifle inside a house is plain stupid. A short barrelled
shotgun is far more useful.

2. Using heavy FMJ bullets is also stupid. Use hollowpoints or soft
nose rounds. The object is to transfer the kinetic energy into the
target, not the wall, next house, etc etc.

3. There is NO DIFFERENCE between 5.56 NATO and .223 except the labels
on the boxes. Go look up the SAAMI ammo spec if you don't believe me.

I could dig out my reloading manuals and quote loads, bullet weights
etc but frankly, I don't give a damn. I do thank my situation tho,
which is not having you for a next door neighbour.

PDW

Don't forget bullet stability as a function twist rate and bullet weight
for
the 5.56.

Yeah but not real relevant at sub-50m ranges AFAIK. And Vito's right,
if you start popping bad guys further away than that, it's going to be
real difficult explaining it to the cops as self defence.

PDW

I wouldn't use a .223 for close in shooting people in a populated setting.
I'd use a 38 or 9 mm.