More info please.

Joe

"NotPony" wrote

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote
:
: Tell me Steve, do you think a keelboat instructor needs
: to take yet another certification course to teach small
: boats? I don't.

I do. Most keel boat sailors I know haven't a
clue about capsizing or weight placement.

Hahahaha! That is funny. If they don't they'll get wet!
I doubt they would have that problem for long. Why not
just turn them loose in a boat for a few days? The
principals are the same. They'd pick it up what they
need to know quickly.

In any event, why not accept the keelboat certification
if the instructor that can demonstrate the additional skills
of capsize recovery and weight and balance? They could
do that right off the dock in a few minutes right in front
of you.

Lots of keelboat people have started in dinks! What
about them? Should an experience adult have to sit
through a boring certification course with a bunch of
kids? I'm talking about someone who knows how
to sail a Laser, and has completed the instructors clinic
for US Sailing, ASA, RYA or the equivalent?

What about a guy who has competed in the Olympics
on skiff's and has a keelboat instructors certification?
Does he have to take the course too? That is the policy
now, AND IT MAKES NO SENSE!

US Sailing is either stupid and inflexible or else it is
purely and simply a functioning on a profit motivation!

The rules need to be changed to allow this sort of
thing. And income should not be a factor in the
decision!

: Do you think that every single certification requires
: that someone take an evaluation course? The purpose
: of which is to make money? Should there not be a
: process where a committee review is sufficient to
: grant such status?

I do. How else are you going to evaluate their
skills? Take their word for it? Most people I
know over estimate their skills.

How about putting them in an environment totally unlike
the relaxed environment of a teaching situation with a
ego-maniac and tyrant of an IT? If they don't kill the IT,
they can handle anything, right? Pass 'em!

I'm sure you realize that many students get nervous
if unnecessary pressure is put on them. The whole
idea is to help students feel comfortable on a boat.
That is an important characterist of an instructor.

If you want to evaluate someone on their teaching
skills, go along on a class and keep your mouth shut
and simply watch.

The same goes for instructors. Lots of people don't
perform well in an ambiguous role under a spotlight.
It is especially difficult when you use the standard for
teaching MOB's and suddenly find the IT has changed
the MOB procedure to his pet method without regard
to following the handbook. These things go on at US
Sailing clinics--I've seen it. US Sailing is not so good
that it can declare everyone else sucks.

If the methods are refined and the IT's are good, I am
not opposed to formal courses. I am opposed to forcing
people to take unnecessary courses, repetitions of what
they have taken before.

Certainly many things can be evaluated through tests
or written essays. And a short observation by an IT
or lead instructor, in the real world teaching real students
can fill in any remaining gaps. There should be some
flexibility in the program.

Lets get back to transfer credit.

What about the RYA? US Sailing based their program
on the RYA program. Would you accept transfer credit
from people who have successfully completed such
courses? If you do not agree then you better be willing
to back it up with a detailed explaination why not.

There are lots of programs out there. Colleges accept
transfer credit from other schools. You cannot ignore
the training people have received elsewhere.

US Sailing does that. The only reason can be they want
to make more money. While the declare, "Our standard
is tougher". What does that have to due with meeting a
standard that has been clearly defined and refined?

That is like MIT saying they are better than Cal Tech or
Berkeley. We won't accept your calculus course, you
have to take ours. Can't you see how ridiculous that is?
The truth is the differences are minor, and US Sailing
can't give a sound justification for their policy.

Just once I'd like to see US Sailing offer a Safety at Sea
seminar for free. They don't do that. They charge for
it. I think you could find volunteer instructors that could
do a slightly better job than the existing instructors. I
studied their sylabus and I remember seeing a hole in
it--I can't remember where now.

It is insulting to require a course of that nature, and then
charge for it. If it were free then more people would be
inclined to sit in. The USPS has the right idea there. They
keep there costs to a minimum. You pay for books, and
their seminars are free. The quality is higher than what
US Sailing offers. Trust me I know. The USPS Piloting
and Advanced Piloting blow the doors off US Sailing or
the ASA's course work. It is like comparing high school
to graduate school. All of the USPS textbooks are the
best material available on each of their topics.

Shouldn't US Sailing accept courses materials like these
that are of a higher standard than their own?

Their attitude to to develop there own books and charge
for them.

If they are a non-profit decicated to doing good, why
don't the work with the USPS? Unlike US Sailing, the
USPS would certainly offer their support and assistance
for free.

What about a USCG license? That should automatically
place people out of many things, and at least abbreviate
much of the course requirements for all the basic courses
including topics like Navigational Aids, Rules of the Road,
etc. A Coast Gurad license completely exceeds the
requirements for the Coastal Navigation course.

Why is there no committee at US Sailing looking at
advanced accreditation for members?

: Given the close similarities between ASA and bogUS
: Sailing's keelboat programs, do you think ASA
: certified instructor need to re-qualify for US Sailing?

I don't know anything about the requirements for
ASA's keel boat instructors.

I've done both and they are virtually identical. For
God's sake Steve this is not rocket science!

I've seen US Sailing IT's that were afraid to short tack in
a marina or God Forbid sail down a channel! I could not
believe it. These are the ones with no dingy experience
that have weaseled their way up in the organization while
having HOLES in there knowledge. Should they me the
ones evaluating instructors?

Trust me there is more variation between instructors than
there is between the courses. If US Sailing will accept
instructors and even IT's that are uncomfortable in such
situations, how can they deny equivalent courses?

: Do you think a high percentage of the IT's should come
: from one sailing school? I don't.

Doesn't matter as long as they meet the standard.

That means one group has not just a greater influence than
others, but nearly all the influence. Lets get rid of all
the Democrats or all the Republicans. Such control is
not healthy and you know it.

: Do you think a man who runs a commercial sailing
: school should be the training chair? I don't.

Who better to understand the training requirements?
Would a pencil pusher be better qualified?

No, but someone who does not have a profit motivation
might be better. Even if they are not biased, it certainly
woudl prevent giving that appearance.

A community boating director for example would be a
better choice. If US Sailing is about doing something for
the sport, the commercial side specifically, should not
exert undo influence. Would it be appropriate for US Sailing
to commerically quash ASA and take over all commercial
sailing in the US? What would happen to costs then?

One of my beefs is instructors have no say in things.
There is no instructor's advocate. And I think this is
because of the control exerted by commercial schools.

The instructors are expected to be professionals but
are not treated as such--no health care for example.
School are run like grocery stores. Commerical Sailing
Schools keep the hours to less than full time, or make them
independent contractors. I worked 152 days out of
161 for Rich. Nine days off in that stretch and I was
part-time. No severance, and no bonus when I left.
I was #2 in tips, so I was doing something right.

I do not rely on instruction for making a living, but some
people do. They deserve better.

I know one fellow who died of Skin Cancer. I doubt
his family got any kind of insurance settlement.

Who looks after the sailing instructors? Do you think
the sailing schools will if it means money out of their
pockets? Oh your have cancer? Where do we send
your last check?

Do you think their control of key positions at US Sailing
will allow for any changes that will benefit sailing instructors
as a group if it costs the schools money?

: You say there are lots of opportunities for feedback
: on the small boat side. Why then is there a gap in the
: grievance process in the By-Laws for instructors?

Talk to your RTC.

I have and supposedly that is changing. I'm skeptical.
Have you heard anything?

I volunteered a few years ago to help out.
Unfortunately the guy who ran it didn't want
any help. Now he wants to quit and there is
no one who wants to take over cold turkey.

I wish I could commit the amount of time needed to
run the thing by myself--I just can't do it right now.

So what was the CAP like? I've only flown a few
times. I did get up in a jet and do acrobatics once
when in the Air Force. Very cool, but more
nauseating than the Gulf Stream.

Say do you know the name of Ralph and Norton's
boat on the Honeymooner's?

"Joe" wrote

Never in the sea scouts, but you're right..I have been skipper of one
Sea Scout boat.

I was an airman in the C.A.P.

katy, I took a tow from a boat load of those guys.

The skipper knew his stuff somewhat. The rest
were keystone cops. I could not believe they were
wearing those extra big heavy lifejackets on a hot
flat calm day. It was hilarious. One of them kept
pointed to me and telling me to put on my lifejacket.
I ignored him. But it was the first clue to making me
nervous. I think I told the story earlier. They nearly
stove the side of my boat in.

"katy" wrote
Or people REALLY impressed with themselves...

Bart Senior wrote:
Warning! While many in the USCGA are sharp seaman.

Many more are untrained novices in the "keystone cop" category.

: Tell me Steve, do you think a keelboat instructor needs
: to take yet another certification course to teach small
: boats? I don't.

"NotPony" wrote
I do. Most keel boat sailors I know haven't a
clue about capsizing or weight placement.


Bart Senior wrote:
Hahahaha! That is funny. If they don't they'll get wet!
I doubt they would have that problem for long.

Depends on the sailor.
I've literally seen guys get angry and insist that something
was wrong with the boat, when putting them into a C-15 or JY
after years of sailing 30+' keel boats.


... Why not
just turn them loose in a boat for a few days? The
principals are the same. They'd pick it up what they
need to know quickly.


I think that's a good idea, but it could get costly if you
turn them loose in a shallow area.

One small boat club I was involved with, had 4 boats bend
and/or break their masts in one day. After that, club
leadership suddenly got serious about demostrating cpasize
drills before turning people loose in boats.

They also got serious about using mast floats, which I think
NotPony's program already is.

This club eventually bought mainsails with foam top panels,
which I think is an awesome idea. Using these, the boats
were *impossible* to turtle under almost any circumstances.






Lots of keelboat people have started in dinks!

That's true, but then lots of them have also been out of it
for years. IMHO your idea about demonstrating the skills
makes sense.


... What
about them? Should an experience adult have to sit
through a boring certification course with a bunch of
kids? I'm talking about someone who knows how
to sail a Laser, and has completed the instructors clinic
for US Sailing, ASA, RYA or the equivalent?

What about a guy who has competed in the Olympics
on skiff's and has a keelboat instructors certification?
Does he have to take the course too? That is the policy
now, AND IT MAKES NO SENSE!

US Sailing is either stupid and inflexible or else it is
purely and simply a functioning on a profit motivation!


Well "stupid & inflexible" is the default setting on most
organizations consisting of more than 5 people, IMHO.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"Bob Crantz" wrote in message
. ..

you saw all this , and did nothing?

SV


It was worse than what I described. I did plenty, but to
no apparent avail.
Time may tell otherwise.


That's too bad. If I have a problem with my boss, I wait
till we're in bed, then bring it up. Works like a charm!

Scotty

I rather take over cold turkey then deal with the guy for years. It is
a big commitment of time, but well worth the effort. I have taught
motorboat handling skills to the Sea Scouts here but just as a guest
instructor.

I was maybe 11 when in the CAP. It was fun, learned navigation, rock
climbing, repelling, ect..ect...We had a cessna but I moved on before I
was allowed to even think about getting in the plane. Thats OK my dad
was a pilot and we flew most weekends. I think most programs like CAP,
SeaScouts, BSA, GSA, Junior Achivement, ect are all great programs that
can make all the difference in a kids life.

So you got a ride on the vomit comet huh?

Joe

Go look. It's by the big metal building.

Amen!

"Joe" wrote in message
oups.com...
More info please.

Joe

Mys Terry wrote:

Junior High School starts in the 9th grade.

Its pretty clear you never got that far. Every junior high school
I've heard of started in 6th or 7th grade

Hit 3.5 negative G's and 4.5 positive in a loop.
Barrel Roll, Aileron Roll, Immelmann.

It was great fun cutting a piece out of a cloud.

I've watched fighters refuel flying over the Pacific,
sat on the flight deck behind and above the pilot
while flying over the Grand Canyon to name a
few other modest things I've done as an observer.

"Joe" wrote
I rather take over cold turkey then deal with the guy for years. It is
a big commitment of time, but well worth the effort. I have taught
motorboat handling skills to the Sea Scouts here but just as a guest
instructor.

I was maybe 11 when in the CAP. It was fun, learned navigation, rock
climbing, repelling, ect..ect...We had a cessna but I moved on before I
was allowed to even think about getting in the plane. Thats OK my dad
was a pilot and we flew most weekends. I think most programs like CAP,
SeaScouts, BSA, GSA, Junior Achivement, ect are all great programs that
can make all the difference in a kids life.

So you got a ride on the vomit comet huh?

Joe