Steve, I don't think he is there any more. I didn't say he
was a CP instructor--he probably was. He did serve as
BK/BC IT outside of the Naval Academy for US Sailing
commerical keelboat school. Give me a call or pass your
phone number to Doug and I'll tell you whatever you want
to know.

Tell me Steve, do you think a keelboat instructor needs
to take yet another certification course to teach small
boats? I don't. That issue alone turned me away from
volunteering at one location.

Do you think that every single certification required
that someone take an evaluation course? The purpose
of which is to make money? Should there not be a
process where a committee review is sufficient to
grant such status? Take the Naval Academy guy.
It was presumed he was passed and he was not
evaluated to the same standard as I was. In my
opinion, he probably could have shown he taught
such courses, document this fact and be able to
submit a resume to place out of such a requirement.

Certainly if the presumption is everyone should be
evaluate to the same standard, they should all be
treated exactly the same. Everything should be
above board. If it's not, it needs to be fixed.
Those at fault need to be removed from such
authority.

Given the close similarities between ASA and bogUS
Sailing's keelboat programs, do you think ASA
certified instructor need to re-qualify for US Sailing?
I don't.

Do you think less qualified people should be
evaluating those with more comprehensive sailing
resumes? I don't.

Do you think a high percentage of the IT's should come
from one sailing school? I don't.

Do you think a man who runs a commercial sailing
school should be the training chair? I don't.

Do you think commercial sailing instructor's deserve
their own representation at US Sailing? I do.

You say there are lots of opportunities for feedback
on the small boat side. Why then is there a gap in the
grievance process in the By-Laws for instructors?

The bottom line is it seems most sailor wants to think
they are better than most everyone else. I've seen it
in racing crews, I've seen it in US Sailing. You have
so many ego's trying to drive others down in the pecking
order. What happened to developing skills?

I've said it many times in the past. You have to be
humble if you want to learn. US Sailing needs to
develop some humility.


"NotPony" wrote
Bart, who is this Navy guy who is now a CP
instructor? Cmdr. Vandenberg is the Director of
the NA's sailing program, and he isn't a CP
instructor. In fact, I don't see anyone in the
list that is associated with the NA.
I don't know about the keelboat side, but in the
small boat training side, there are many
opportunities for the instructors and host site to
be critiqued.
S.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message
...
: Steve, I don't think he is there any more. I
didn't say he
: was a CP instructor--he probably was. He did
serve as
: BK/BC IT outside of the Naval Academy for US
Sailing
: commerical keelboat school. Give me a call or
pass your
: phone number to Doug and I'll tell you whatever
you want
: to know.

You can find my email address and email me.
That's probably the best way to get me.

:
: Tell me Steve, do you think a keelboat
instructor needs
: to take yet another certification course to
teach small
: boats? I don't. That issue alone turned me
away from
: volunteering at one location.

I do. Most keel boat sailors I know haven't a
clue about capsizing or weight placement.

:
: Do you think that every single certification
required
: that someone take an evaluation course? The
purpose
: of which is to make money? Should there not be
a
: process where a committee review is sufficient
to
: grant such status? Take the Naval Academy guy.
: It was presumed he was passed and he was not
: evaluated to the same standard as I was. In my
: opinion, he probably could have shown he taught
: such courses, document this fact and be able to
: submit a resume to place out of such a
requirement.

I do. How else are you going to evaluate their
skills? Take their word for it? Most people I
know over estimate their skills.
:
: Certainly if the presumption is everyone should
be
: evaluate to the same standard, they should all
be
: treated exactly the same. Everything should be
: above board. If it's not, it needs to be fixed.
: Those at fault need to be removed from such
: authority.
:
: Given the close similarities between ASA and
bogUS
: Sailing's keelboat programs, do you think ASA
: certified instructor need to re-qualify for US
Sailing?
: I don't.

I don't know anything about the requirements for
ASA's keel boat instructors.

:
: Do you think less qualified people should be
: evaluating those with more comprehensive sailing
: resumes? I don't.

It depends. I know there are more qualified
sailors than me who have far less teaching
ability.

:
: Do you think a high percentage of the IT's
should come
: from one sailing school? I don't.

Doesn't matter as long as they meet the standard.
:
: Do you think a man who runs a commercial sailing
: school should be the training chair? I don't.

Who better to understand the training
requirements? Would a pencil pusher be better
qualified?

:
: Do you think commercial sailing instructor's
deserve
: their own representation at US Sailing? I do.

I might have an opinion if I were in a commercial
venture.

:
: You say there are lots of opportunities for
feedback
: on the small boat side. Why then is there a gap
in the
: grievance process in the By-Laws for
instructors?

Talk to your RTC.

:
: The bottom line is it seems most sailor wants to
think
: they are better than most everyone else. I've
seen it
: in racing crews, I've seen it in US Sailing.
You have
: so many ego's trying to drive others down in the
pecking
: order. What happened to developing skills?

That's why there are instructor evaluations.

:
: I've said it many times in the past. You have
to be
: humble if you want to learn. US Sailing needs
to
: develop some humility.
:
:

S.

: "NotPony" wrote
: Bart, who is this Navy guy who is now a CP
: instructor? Cmdr. Vandenberg is the Director
of
: the NA's sailing program, and he isn't a CP
: instructor. In fact, I don't see anyone in the
: list that is associated with the NA.
: I don't know about the keelboat side, but in
the
: small boat training side, there are many
: opportunities for the instructors and host
site to
: be critiqued.
: S.
:
:

"NotPony" wrote

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote
:
: Tell me Steve, do you think a keelboat instructor needs
: to take yet another certification course to teach small
: boats? I don't.

I do. Most keel boat sailors I know haven't a
clue about capsizing or weight placement.

Hahahaha! That is funny. If they don't they'll get wet!
I doubt they would have that problem for long. Why not
just turn them loose in a boat for a few days? The
principals are the same. They'd pick it up what they
need to know quickly.

In any event, why not accept the keelboat certification
if the instructor that can demonstrate the additional skills
of capsize recovery and weight and balance? They could
do that right off the dock in a few minutes right in front
of you.

Lots of keelboat people have started in dinks! What
about them? Should an experience adult have to sit
through a boring certification course with a bunch of
kids? I'm talking about someone who knows how
to sail a Laser, and has completed the instructors clinic
for US Sailing, ASA, RYA or the equivalent?

What about a guy who has competed in the Olympics
on skiff's and has a keelboat instructors certification?
Does he have to take the course too? That is the policy
now, AND IT MAKES NO SENSE!

US Sailing is either stupid and inflexible or else it is
purely and simply a functioning on a profit motivation!

The rules need to be changed to allow this sort of
thing. And income should not be a factor in the
decision!

: Do you think that every single certification requires
: that someone take an evaluation course? The purpose
: of which is to make money? Should there not be a
: process where a committee review is sufficient to
: grant such status?

I do. How else are you going to evaluate their
skills? Take their word for it? Most people I
know over estimate their skills.

How about putting them in an environment totally unlike
the relaxed environment of a teaching situation with a
ego-maniac and tyrant of an IT? If they don't kill the IT,
they can handle anything, right? Pass 'em!

I'm sure you realize that many students get nervous
if unnecessary pressure is put on them. The whole
idea is to help students feel comfortable on a boat.
That is an important characterist of an instructor.

If you want to evaluate someone on their teaching
skills, go along on a class and keep your mouth shut
and simply watch.

The same goes for instructors. Lots of people don't
perform well in an ambiguous role under a spotlight.
It is especially difficult when you use the standard for
teaching MOB's and suddenly find the IT has changed
the MOB procedure to his pet method without regard
to following the handbook. These things go on at US
Sailing clinics--I've seen it. US Sailing is not so good
that it can declare everyone else sucks.

If the methods are refined and the IT's are good, I am
not opposed to formal courses. I am opposed to forcing
people to take unnecessary courses, repetitions of what
they have taken before.

Certainly many things can be evaluated through tests
or written essays. And a short observation by an IT
or lead instructor, in the real world teaching real students
can fill in any remaining gaps. There should be some
flexibility in the program.

Lets get back to transfer credit.

What about the RYA? US Sailing based their program
on the RYA program. Would you accept transfer credit
from people who have successfully completed such
courses? If you do not agree then you better be willing
to back it up with a detailed explaination why not.

There are lots of programs out there. Colleges accept
transfer credit from other schools. You cannot ignore
the training people have received elsewhere.

US Sailing does that. The only reason can be they want
to make more money. While the declare, "Our standard
is tougher". What does that have to due with meeting a
standard that has been clearly defined and refined?

That is like MIT saying they are better than Cal Tech or
Berkeley. We won't accept your calculus course, you
have to take ours. Can't you see how ridiculous that is?
The truth is the differences are minor, and US Sailing
can't give a sound justification for their policy.

Just once I'd like to see US Sailing offer a Safety at Sea
seminar for free. They don't do that. They charge for
it. I think you could find volunteer instructors that could
do a slightly better job than the existing instructors. I
studied their sylabus and I remember seeing a hole in
it--I can't remember where now.

It is insulting to require a course of that nature, and then
charge for it. If it were free then more people would be
inclined to sit in. The USPS has the right idea there. They
keep there costs to a minimum. You pay for books, and
their seminars are free. The quality is higher than what
US Sailing offers. Trust me I know. The USPS Piloting
and Advanced Piloting blow the doors off US Sailing or
the ASA's course work. It is like comparing high school
to graduate school. All of the USPS textbooks are the
best material available on each of their topics.

Shouldn't US Sailing accept courses materials like these
that are of a higher standard than their own?

Their attitude to to develop there own books and charge
for them.

If they are a non-profit decicated to doing good, why
don't the work with the USPS? Unlike US Sailing, the
USPS would certainly offer their support and assistance
for free.

What about a USCG license? That should automatically
place people out of many things, and at least abbreviate
much of the course requirements for all the basic courses
including topics like Navigational Aids, Rules of the Road,
etc. A Coast Gurad license completely exceeds the
requirements for the Coastal Navigation course.

Why is there no committee at US Sailing looking at
advanced accreditation for members?

: Given the close similarities between ASA and bogUS
: Sailing's keelboat programs, do you think ASA
: certified instructor need to re-qualify for US Sailing?

I don't know anything about the requirements for
ASA's keel boat instructors.

I've done both and they are virtually identical. For
God's sake Steve this is not rocket science!

I've seen US Sailing IT's that were afraid to short tack in
a marina or God Forbid sail down a channel! I could not
believe it. These are the ones with no dingy experience
that have weaseled their way up in the organization while
having HOLES in there knowledge. Should they me the
ones evaluating instructors?

Trust me there is more variation between instructors than
there is between the courses. If US Sailing will accept
instructors and even IT's that are uncomfortable in such
situations, how can they deny equivalent courses?

: Do you think a high percentage of the IT's should come
: from one sailing school? I don't.

Doesn't matter as long as they meet the standard.

That means one group has not just a greater influence than
others, but nearly all the influence. Lets get rid of all
the Democrats or all the Republicans. Such control is
not healthy and you know it.

: Do you think a man who runs a commercial sailing
: school should be the training chair? I don't.

Who better to understand the training requirements?
Would a pencil pusher be better qualified?

No, but someone who does not have a profit motivation
might be better. Even if they are not biased, it certainly
woudl prevent giving that appearance.

A community boating director for example would be a
better choice. If US Sailing is about doing something for
the sport, the commercial side specifically, should not
exert undo influence. Would it be appropriate for US Sailing
to commerically quash ASA and take over all commercial
sailing in the US? What would happen to costs then?

One of my beefs is instructors have no say in things.
There is no instructor's advocate. And I think this is
because of the control exerted by commercial schools.

The instructors are expected to be professionals but
are not treated as such--no health care for example.
School are run like grocery stores. Commerical Sailing
Schools keep the hours to less than full time, or make them
independent contractors. I worked 152 days out of
161 for Rich. Nine days off in that stretch and I was
part-time. No severance, and no bonus when I left.
I was #2 in tips, so I was doing something right.

I do not rely on instruction for making a living, but some
people do. They deserve better.

I know one fellow who died of Skin Cancer. I doubt
his family got any kind of insurance settlement.

Who looks after the sailing instructors? Do you think
the sailing schools will if it means money out of their
pockets? Oh your have cancer? Where do we send
your last check?

Do you think their control of key positions at US Sailing
will allow for any changes that will benefit sailing instructors
as a group if it costs the schools money?

: You say there are lots of opportunities for feedback
: on the small boat side. Why then is there a gap in the
: grievance process in the By-Laws for instructors?

Talk to your RTC.

I have and supposedly that is changing. I'm skeptical.
Have you heard anything?

: Tell me Steve, do you think a keelboat instructor needs
: to take yet another certification course to teach small
: boats? I don't.

"NotPony" wrote
I do. Most keel boat sailors I know haven't a
clue about capsizing or weight placement.


Bart Senior wrote:
Hahahaha! That is funny. If they don't they'll get wet!
I doubt they would have that problem for long.

Depends on the sailor.
I've literally seen guys get angry and insist that something
was wrong with the boat, when putting them into a C-15 or JY
after years of sailing 30+' keel boats.


... Why not
just turn them loose in a boat for a few days? The
principals are the same. They'd pick it up what they
need to know quickly.


I think that's a good idea, but it could get costly if you
turn them loose in a shallow area.

One small boat club I was involved with, had 4 boats bend
and/or break their masts in one day. After that, club
leadership suddenly got serious about demostrating cpasize
drills before turning people loose in boats.

They also got serious about using mast floats, which I think
NotPony's program already is.

This club eventually bought mainsails with foam top panels,
which I think is an awesome idea. Using these, the boats
were *impossible* to turtle under almost any circumstances.






Lots of keelboat people have started in dinks!

That's true, but then lots of them have also been out of it
for years. IMHO your idea about demonstrating the skills
makes sense.


... What
about them? Should an experience adult have to sit
through a boring certification course with a bunch of
kids? I'm talking about someone who knows how
to sail a Laser, and has completed the instructors clinic
for US Sailing, ASA, RYA or the equivalent?

What about a guy who has competed in the Olympics
on skiff's and has a keelboat instructors certification?
Does he have to take the course too? That is the policy
now, AND IT MAKES NO SENSE!

US Sailing is either stupid and inflexible or else it is
purely and simply a functioning on a profit motivation!


Well "stupid & inflexible" is the default setting on most
organizations consisting of more than 5 people, IMHO.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"DSK" wrote

Depends on the sailor.
I've literally seen guys get angry and insist that something was wrong
with the boat, when putting them into a C-15 or JY after years of sailing
30+' keel boats.

I can think of a few people like that. Still, after that
someone without a patronizing attitude, could take them out
and really teach them something, and perhaps get them
excited about learning something really new and
exciting.


... Why not
just turn them loose in a boat for a few days? The
principals are the same. They'd pick it up what they
need to know quickly.

I think that's a good idea, but it could get costly if you turn them loose
in a shallow area.

Good point. Wouldn't want to stick those masts in the
mud!

One small boat club I was involved with, had 4 boats bend and/or break
their masts in one day. After that, club leadership suddenly got serious
about demostrating capsize drills before turning people loose in boats.

They also got serious about using mast floats, which I think NotPony's
program already is.

Mast floats are a great solution, and I think you nailed
the answer to the one weakness in my argument. Thanks.

This club eventually bought mainsails with foam top panels, which I think
is an awesome idea. Using these, the boats were *impossible* to turtle
under almost any circumstances.

Cool. What a fabulous idea!


Lots of keelboat people have started in dinks!

That's true, but then lots of them have also been out of it for years.
IMHO your idea about demonstrating the skills makes sense.

Thanks. It also takes away some of the power from
the "Holier than Thou" crowd who want to protect
their fiefdoms through silly rules and over-regulation.


Should an experience adult have to sit
through a boring certification course with a bunch of
kids? I'm talking about someone who knows how
to sail a Laser, and has completed the instructors clinic
for US Sailing, ASA, RYA or the equivalent?
What about a guy who has competed in the Olympics
on skiff's and has a keelboat instructors certification?
Does he have to take the course too? That is the policy
now, AND IT MAKES NO SENSE!

US Sailing is either stupid and inflexible or else it is
purely and simply a functioning on a profit motivation!


Well "stupid & inflexible" is the default setting on most organizations
consisting of more than 5 people, IMHO.

Perhap the Training Department should be renamed the
"Stupid and Senseless Home for the Inflexible."