Jeeze, all I do is point out some factual errors and people think I'm
making value judgments or have some evil agenda.

DSK wrote:
....
I have, however, been a beneficiary of their work on
numerous occasions, in particular, whenever I've raced.

How so?

I've raced quite a lot, from local clubs to international events, and
didn't feel that I benefitted at all from USSA.

So, are you saying that we'd be better off without a national
organization; that every club should make up its own rules, and
interpret as they saw fit?


In fact, on at least one occasion, their short-sightedness & nepotism
cost me several finishes. But that's probably the fault of individuals,
not the whole organization.

No. I'm sure a message was passed down from the head office that you
were late in paying dues.



That's the demographic (more or less) of those who are seeking the
keelboat certification offered by both USSailing and ASA. The
difference is that this is the only business of ASA, because that's
where the money is. USSailing, on the other hand, serves the entire
boating community.


And does US Sailing offer anything to the 'cruising education oriented'
boating community that ASA does not?

USSa offer services in many areas that ASA doesn't. Bart tells us
that in areas they overlap they are essentially the same. And why
shouldn't they be?



ASA was there first, in fact at one point US Sailing stated as their
official policy that they would rather not get involved in certification
for keelboat sailing & cruising education, since there were so many
other groups already doing this (ASA and the Power Squadron). Then they
saw the revenue potential and changed their minds.

Was it that, or was it that some schools didn't want to be extorted by
ASA, and so created their own version. I really don't know the
answer, But I don't think USSa would have made much headway in this
area if there weren't people that wanted an alternative.

.... And from my point of view, claiming the two organizations are
"identical" is ludicrous.


I don't think the claim was made that the two organizations were
identical. I think that the claim was made there there is small
difference between certifications offered by them... which is true.

The claim was that the two groups were "identical." What the intent
was is really only known be Bart. I was clarifying for the benefit of
reader who might believe the literal claim.

The rest of your material is interesting, but misses the point. US
Sailing IS the "National Governing Body" of the sport according to an
act of Congress. That is a matter of fact.


Big deal. Other than changing the rules unecessarily and mismanaging
protests, what do they actually DO? Collect money. Yeah, that's a
"service."

Big deal, little deal, its the truth.

... They are the folks that run the national team, send sailers to the
Olympics,

In other words, they sponge up money from many sources and hand it to
their favorite butt-kisser boy racers.

And that's not you, I'm guessing.


The last time the Olympic sailing team was decided on the water, by
cumulative series regatta results, a friend of mine ended representing
the US in his class... and the USSA favorites all screamed bloody
murder. Since then, it's been a nepotism system.

Don't get me wrong on this, the U.S. Olympic sailors are great athletes
and very skilled... but I would describe USSA's role in the selection
process as interfering, money-laundering, and playing favorites.

And your alternative is what, a knife fight behind the clubhouse? You
can argue all you want that the current leadership is incompetent or
corrupt or both. Maybe you're right. But are you actually claiming
with would be better off with nothing?


...trains the race committees, etc.


Don't get me started on that. I struggled on correcting their race
committee training for years. USSA has a habit of producing inflexible
big-headed tyrants for PROs.

yada, yada, yada.

Again, what's the alternative? Groups tend to have the leadership
they want and deserve. If you think you deserve better, then you
should do something about it rather than whine here.

USSailing IS the "National Governing Body" by act of Congress.

And I guess the benevolent Congress awarded them this distinction out of
recognition for their outstanding service to humanity?

No, US Sailing paid some lobbysits to get it done. A comment on the
state of both the Congress and US Sailing.

Actually it probably came through the Olympic Committee, another
organization known for its fair dealings!

But who else would take this role? ASA certainly wants no part.



The main reason for an individual sailor to join USSA is to avoid their
extortion on regatta entry fees. I don't understand any reason why a
club or class would join USSA, other than "recognition." The cost to
benefit ratio is totally out of whack IMHO.

And yet, most clubs do join. I guess they're not as smart as you.


I've had vice presidents of USSA tell me that dinghy sailing is a dying
sport and they don't want to waste money trying to bring it back. Yet
they are happy to collect money from all the centerboard one-designs!
I've also heard big boat sailors bitch that USSA uses their higher fees
to subsidize small one-design racing. So apparently both camps are
getting screwed.

BTW collegiate sailing is directly administered by the IYRA.


Yes, and their race committees are just as good/bad as USSailing.
(Actually, I think they are trained by USSailing, I'll have to check.)

If you want the facts, Jean, here they are. I remember when the
governing body for the sport of sailing (ie racing) was NAYRU and it's
been downhill since then.

Right. Kicking the Canadians out was the whole problem.

Jean Pudl wrote:
Jeeze, all I do is point out some factual errors and people think I'm
making value judgments or have some evil agenda.


Well, you *have* made some value judgements.

As for evil agenda, if you don't have one, would you like
one? There are several available in the lobby.




So, are you saying that we'd be better off without a national
organization; that every club should make up its own rules, and
interpret as they saw fit?


No, I'm saying that USSA has done a poor job. An
international body of sailing rules existed for a hundred
years or so before USSA came along, no doubt if USSA
withered & died then somehow we'd muddle along at least as
well without them until something better came along.



In fact, on at least one occasion, their short-sightedness & nepotism
cost me several finishes. But that's probably the fault of
individuals, not the whole organization.


No. I'm sure a message was passed down from the head office that you
were late in paying dues.


Yep, that was the year I dropped out.

Guess what, my dues are about 8 years late now.



And does US Sailing offer anything to the 'cruising education
oriented' boating community that ASA does not?


USSa offer services in many areas that ASA doesn't. Bart tells us that
in areas they overlap they are essentially the same. And why shouldn't
they be?


If they are essentially the same, and ASA was there first,
then why did USSA get into it unless they had something
better to offer? And how do you know that they haven't
simply copied material and passed it off as their own?




ASA was there first, in fact at one point US Sailing stated as their
official policy that they would rather not get involved in
certification for keelboat sailing & cruising education, since there
were so many other groups already doing this (ASA and the Power
Squadron). Then they saw the revenue potential and changed their minds.


Was it that, or was it that some schools didn't want to be extorted by
ASA, and so created their own version. I really don't know the answer,

I do. It was expressly stated by US Sailing. Same reason
that USYRU, one of their predecessor organizations, grabbed
control of windsurfing...

But I don't think USSa would have made much headway in this area if
there weren't people that wanted an alternative.


Really?
What if they simply use already existing influence to force
people who don't want to change? Sort of like Microsoft?





Big deal. Other than changing the rules unecessarily and mismanaging
protests, what do they actually DO? Collect money. Yeah, that's a
"service."


Big deal, little deal, its the truth.


Glad we agree on something.


... They are the folks that run the national team, send sailers to
the Olympics,


In other words, they sponge up money from many sources and hand it to
their favorite butt-kisser boy racers.


And that's not you, I'm guessing.


Should it be? At one time I was a member of a fairly serious
team aimed for the Olympics. That was long enough ago that
the selection process was vastly different... and the money
was provided almost 100% by the contenders. Since then I
have always remained very interested in Olympic sailing and
remained friends with a lot of sailors in those venues.


The last time the Olympic sailing team was decided on the water, by
cumulative series regatta results, a friend of mine ended representing
the US in his class... and the USSA favorites all screamed bloody
murder. Since then, it's been a nepotism system.

Don't get me wrong on this, the U.S. Olympic sailors are great
athletes and very skilled... but I would describe USSA's role in the
selection process as interfering, money-laundering, and playing
favorites.


And your alternative is what, a knife fight behind the clubhouse?

Ah, no. It should have been obvious that I would prefer a
selection system based on performance in regattas.

Right now we have a "secret points" system whereby the
selection committee can pick anybody (maybe I can bribe them
into picking me?). Needless to say, they have a vested
interest in picking sailors who will do well, but many times
they also seem to give the cold shoulder... in selection
points & in money... to sailors who seem to win more
regattas than their picks.

The selection process should first of all be simple &
aboveboard. Secondly it should be decided ON THE WATER.


... You
can argue all you want that the current leadership is incompetent or
corrupt or both. Maybe you're right. But are you actually claiming
with would be better off with nothing?


Actually, I'm not claiming they are any worse than
marginally competent, with a vested interest in tilting the
game certain ways & in gaining control of as much cash flow
as they can.

The sport of sailing is declining, and they whine about it
but don't seem to actually do much about it. Nor are they
willing to change any element of their grip on other
people's money.


yada, yada, yada.

Again, what's the alternative? Groups tend to have the leadership they
want and deserve. If you think you deserve better, then you should do
something about it rather than whine here.


I have done something about it.
I don't race as much, nor in as many different places. I
also have done a fair amount of Race Officer training and
helped shape programs at several different clubs, without
any assistance from USSA.

I suspect a fair percentage of the decline in sailing is
people like me who are not satisfied with the way the sport
has changed since the glory days & the boom years.


USSailing IS the "National Governing Body" by act of Congress.


And I guess the benevolent Congress awarded them this distinction out
of recognition for their outstanding service to humanity?

No, US Sailing paid some lobbysits to get it done. A comment on the
state of both the Congress and US Sailing.


Actually it probably came through the Olympic Committee, another
organization known for its fair dealings!

But who else would take this role? ASA certainly wants no part.


ASA has the limited purpose of offering certification to
cruising-oriented educational programs, both as a means of
providing additional & standardized material to the
instructors and an assurance of quality to the student.
That's all they do, that's all they want to do.

If the ASA started trying to grab control of sailboat
racing, I might be interested enough to attend some of their
events. They might do a better job.




The main reason for an individual sailor to join USSA is to avoid
their extortion on regatta entry fees. I don't understand any reason
why a club or class would join USSA, other than "recognition." The
cost to benefit ratio is totally out of whack IMHO.


And yet, most clubs do join. I guess they're not as smart as you.


Really? A lot of clubs & classes don't, which is another
thing that USSA constantly whines about.

USSA can't think of anything to do about it, other than to
try & extort them into joining by making events cost more
for them than for members.


BTW collegiate sailing is directly administered by the IYRA.


Yes, and their race committees are just as good/bad as USSailing.
(Actually, I think they are trained by USSailing, I'll have to check.)


No doubt many are.

OTOH where do you think the shorter time frame for start
sequences came from?


If you want the facts, Jean, here they are. I remember when the
governing body for the sport of sailing (ie racing) was NAYRU and it's
been downhill since then.


Right. Kicking the Canadians out was the whole problem.


Yeah, that must be it.

DSK

Everything you say may be true, but it doesn't change the fact that if
USSailing was torn down and reconstructed today, the most likely
outcome (though certainly not the only possibility) is something very
similar to what we have now.

But a few facts: since USSailing has been around since 1897, what
international rules are you claiming that goes back to the 18th
century? And the last Olympic selection that I followed was 1992 -
that seemed to be on the water (to the chagrin of a friend who had the
flu at a critical regatta); how has that changed?

And I hardly think you can blame any organization for the "decline" of
sailing. You can probably show a more causal relationship with the
the Internet, or cell phones, or sunspots.

Jean Pudl wrote:
But a few facts: since USSailing has been around since 1897

Excuse me?

That is not a fact.

U.S. Sailing is the successor organization to NAYRU and USYRU.

... what
international rules are you claiming that goes back to the 18th
century?

Heck, starboard tack right of way goes back to the Vikings.

... And the last Olympic selection that I followed was 1992 - that
seemed to be on the water (to the chagrin of a friend who had the flu at
a critical regatta); how has that changed?


Actually that selection was a last-minute change but it
didn't work out the way they thought it would. I am sorry
for your friend, I think I know who it is. Didn't the
selection in this case come down to a single light-air race?

Since then, they have changed the process and made it
secret, then published the rules, then made exceptions to
the rules, etc etc.


And I hardly think you can blame any organization for the "decline" of
sailing. You can probably show a more causal relationship with the the
Internet, or cell phones, or sunspots.

If there had been video games when I was a kid, I would not
have been interested in sailing either.

But as "the official governing body for the sport of
sailing" don't you think USSA should have a better idea what
to do about it, instead of shrugging & saying 'oh well'?

DSK