No apology needed - a good time was had by all.

I wouldn't want to get into the middle of USSa/ASA discussion; then I
would truly make an ass of myself.

I do wonder how autonomous the "commercial" sail training committee
is. The impression I've had (based on little real evidence) was that
it was created by and for one group of schools because they didn't
want to pay ASA for an "official" piece of paper. Does this make any
difference to the student? Does it make any difference to the charter
companies? Actually, it seems it only makes a difference to the
instructors who have to go through the process of being certified by
one or the other, or both. Just curious, when someone pays $400 for a
basic keelboat course, how much of that goes back to ASA or USSa?

As to the "governing body" issue, this is a byproduct of the Olympic
Committee process, where one and only one group (and I assume it must
be non-profit) must be designated as the governing body for each
sport, and is responsible for the Olympic and Pan-American teams, plus
certain other functions. For better or worse, USSailing is the
organization the fits this role.

All of the behind the scenes ego trips, back stabbing, conflicts of
interest, power plays, pseudo-scandals, etc. seem to be par for the
course with large (or small) non-profits. As opposed to for-profits
which have the same mishigas, but its called "business."



Bart Senior wrote:
Let me start by apologizing to you Jean. I let my deep
seated anger towards US Sailing spill over into my
response to you. You seemed to represent US Sailing
so I directed my anger towards you. My behavior was
rude and unacceptable--unbecoming of an officer. Please
accept my sincere, humble, apology for my rude behavior.

In my defense, I can only state that I have sound reasons
for my enmity towards US Sailing. I'd be happy to relate
them to you.

I hold US Sailing's keelboat training organization in contempt.
To a lesser degree, I hold the management of US Sailing in
contempt for not fixing the many problems they have within
the organization. Based on my experience, Sail Training is
much less important to US Sailing relative to it's root activities
in racing.

These things have nothing to do with you, or the fine job US
Sailing does with respect to the US Olympics, their small boat
training program, or their excellent work in the area of racing.

One beef I have is that US Sailing does not represent sailing
instructors. The people that run the program represent the
commercial sailing schools.

For example the present US Sailing Training Chairman owns a
sailing school. I have a degree of respect for him in that he started
the program and along with the owners of several other sailing
schools. The majority the IT's were picked from these sailing
schools without a standards based selection process. So now
you have a situation where, a few commerical sailing school
owners control the US Sailing Training Program. Many of the
IT's are close minded and assumed. The title IT gives them an
arrogant air and my experience is they refuse to accept any opinion but
there own.

While US Sailing is Non-Profit. Sail Training is being run by
individuals who own For-Profit concerns. It is clear their
motivations are biased.

This profound bias is the underlying cause for many of the
complaints I have with US Sailing. Unqualifed people have been
put in charge of training programs. The egos of some of these
people put their own opinions ahead of the standards that have
been developed. Any outside suggestions are now shoved aside.
Many instructors I know, have given up on trying to reason with
this unwieldy buracracy.

I've witnessed situations where co-IT's have disagreed on
training methods. I've seens some of these ego-centric instructor
demand instructor candidates follow and be evaluated on their
methods, in direct contradiction to documented US Sailng procedures.

I've seen blantant favoritism given towards one individual. On
the other hand, I was chastized by two IT's for simply demanding
equal fair treatment. After this I was hounded by one IT for
the rest of the course. My repeated attempt to discuss this
matter with US Sailing official fell on deaf ears. I never recieved
the refund I demanded.

I feel the Man-Overboard diagram in the US Sailing manual
needs to be changed. Three years ago I wrote the President
of US Sailing about this and was brushed off. I recently
brought the subject up again and it was quashed again. It is
important enough that I feel it deserves more study. Don't
you agree that potentially life saving safety issues should be
reviewed with an open mind, and given an opportunity to
for more than a brief review?

Each time I've raised an issue through proper channels with
US Sailing, I have been brushed off, ignored and treated with
contempt. The single time I've gotten a response from US Sailing
was when I wrote an letter to the editor submitting US Sailing for
a Moosehead Award. And in this case I again felt brushed off,
and was never given the formal written response that was
promised to me by the Training Chair.

US Sailing is reluctant to put anything in writing because like any
bureacracy the staff is playing CYA.

I spent a career in the US Air Force where integrity, and a
standard of excellence was the norm. My experience with US
Sailing is that of a bumbling bureaucracy unwilling to take a hard
look at itself to fix's it's own problems. Until they do I shall
speak out and let the world know that US Sailing is not lily
white, not God's gift to sailing, and inept with respect to their
sail training program.

I want to thank you also for making it clear to me that I should
continue my crusade against US Sailing. I shall reopen my dialog
with US Sailing and press my issues.

US Sailing versus ASA

I still feel that US Sailings Keelboat program is virtually
identical to the ASA program for the reasons I stated earlier.
I don't see how you cannot agree with me on this point
given the material, course content, course names, and the
identical RYA source of each program.

I will agree with you that ASA is not involved in community
sailing. I am not aware of any community program that uses
keelboats, except for the US Navy's Morale Welfare and
Recreational organization, which is specifically designed for
Active Duty US Military and Retirees, and supported by
US Navy funding. I do not know of any other community
progarm that uses small boats.

In the narrow area of what ASA does, keelboat training, US
Sailing's program is no different. US Sailing certifying keelboat
schools are, in fact, commercial ventures.

Can you give me one good reason why instructor and student
certifications from ASA should not be accepted in US Sailing?

In the area of Keelboat Training. How is US Sailing different
than ASA given that the owners of US Sailing certifed commerical
sailing schools control US Sailing keelboat training program to the
same degree as ASA?

CONGRESS

I was unaware that Congress granted US Sailing the Title
of Governing Body of the Sport. I still feel strongly that it
an unfair competitive advantage Congress has given to US
Sailing over the ASA. Congress should specifically exclude
this title in the area of keelboat training as this gives an unfair
competitive advantage to US Sailing keelboat training schools.
Thanks for making me aware of this.

While I am not in favor of ASA in particular, I shall be sure to
write my representatives to discuss this matter with them.

In any event, if this title is ever disputed by ASA in the courts,
and I sincerely hope they do so, I feel confident this point would
be legally overturned for the reasons I've stated.

"Jean Pudl" wrote

I do wonder how autonomous the "commercial" sail training committee is.
The impression I've had (based on little real evidence) was that it was
created by and for one group of schools because they didn't want to pay
ASA for an "official" piece of paper.

Correct. It started with three school in the SF Bay area. The Training
Chairman owns one of these schools. He has several of the IT's on
his staff and in his back pocket. He pays there expenses and owns
their votes. One of them should be fired from his position as an IT
on ethics charges.

I have some hope the Training Chair will implement some changes.
However, nearly everything I've discussed with him has been brushed
off. I am unwilling to travel to their event at my expense just to be
ignored after I'm gone.

I dropped my membership and asked for my certification money back.
Which reminds me, I need to write them about that again. I'll have to
send it certified mail this time. They gave me a "screw you" on the
telephone when last I called them.

Does this make any difference to the student? Does it make any difference
to the charter companies?

Nope.

Actually, it seems it only makes a difference to the instructors who have
to go through the process of being certified by one or the other, or both.
Just curious, when someone pays $400 for a basic keelboat course, how much
of that goes back to ASA or USSa?

Schools pay a flat rate for membership. They have to join to be competitive
now that the "Certification" paper is what they are selling. Students feel
the paper means something and don't understand it is the skills that are
important and the paper is meaningless.

Student fees include book costs, tests, and the log book. I'll can only
guess what the total is.

Insurance is a muddy issue. Instructor are forced to pay for insurance.
This is a scam since the schools already have insurance. bogUS Sailing
both claims this fee is both insurance and not for insurance, but insists
instructors pay it anyway to be recertified. I lost my cool over this
last year. How can they say it is and that it isn't for insurance? What
hogwash! I want a written answer on this one.

When I signed up the only requirement for recertification was up to date
First Aid and CPR certifications. Now a bogus insurance fee is attached.
Again, they say it is not for insurance, but that is what it pays for--so
that
is what it is. Try to get a straight answer out of them on that one. And
they won't put and answer down on paper either!


As to the "governing body" issue, this is a byproduct of the Olympic
Committee process, where one and only one group (and I assume it must be
non-profit) must be designated as the governing body for each sport, and
is responsible for the Olympic and Pan-American teams, plus certain other
functions. For better or worse, USSailing is the organization the fits
this role.

I don't think it is perfect, but it works, and you get something for your
money--race committees. However, I refuse to take a Safety at Sea
seminar from someone who knows less about it than I, when I know
the reason they won't place people out of such things is because of
the profits they make on these courses. I'd prefer to race unofficially
and display a "Boycott USSailing.org" decal on my boat, and offer to
take only it off if they pay me.

Did you know someone recently proposed raising the grievance fee
to raise more money at US Sailing? How could they even consider
such a thing. In the spirit of fairness there should not be any fee
associated with filing a grievance! Screw them. What a bunch of
asshole. It is clear US Sailing is all about money, not about improving
the sport.

I agree with Doug that there is an appearance that they support
and recognize certain sailor that are "in". Those can do no wrong.
The more awards the heap on them, the more valuable they are to
the organization. It's like blowing up a balloon. There is little to
back it up but what was already there.

All of the behind the scenes ego trips, back stabbing, conflicts of
interest, power plays, pseudo-scandals, etc. seem to be par for the course
with large (or small) non-profits. As opposed to for-profits which have
the same mishigas, but its called "business."

I disagree. Such an organization should have a standard of excellence.

I'd prefer to see US Sailing have delegates that actually represent
members. If I can sign up 1000 members I could then represent them
and fight their agendas. Does anyone want to be first to sign my list?
I'd love to battle US Sailing in their den. I'd love to fight to make them
change the ridiculous way they operate. They are so inept.

I purposely don't know much about the keelboat
training because I think it's kind of goofy. But,
I'm 100% behind US SAILING's small boat training.
As the director of a sailing center, I require all
my instructors to have SBSI level I and all my
coaches to have level II. I know every aspect of
the training they've received.
I also have a great deal of respect for Rich
Jepsen. He has done well in leading the training
committee in rewriting the level II training and
they are almost done the rewrite of the level I
and Start Sailing Right.
No, US SAILING isn't perfect, but I think it does
well with it's small staff and volunteers.
S.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message
...
:
: "Jean Pudl" wrote
:
: I do wonder how autonomous the "commercial"
sail training committee is.
: The impression I've had (based on little real
evidence) was that it was
: created by and for one group of schools
because they didn't want to pay
: ASA for an "official" piece of paper.
:
: Correct. It started with three school in the SF
Bay area. The Training
: Chairman owns one of these schools. He has
several of the IT's on
: his staff and in his back pocket. He pays there
expenses and owns
: their votes. One of them should be fired from
his position as an IT
: on ethics charges.
:
: I have some hope the Training Chair will
implement some changes.
: However, nearly everything I've discussed with
him has been brushed
: off. I am unwilling to travel to their event at
my expense just to be
: ignored after I'm gone.
:
: I dropped my membership and asked for my
certification money back.
: Which reminds me, I need to write them about
that again. I'll have to
: send it certified mail this time. They gave me a
"screw you" on the
: telephone when last I called them.
:
: Does this make any difference to the student?
Does it make any difference
: to the charter companies?
:
: Nope.
:
: Actually, it seems it only makes a difference
to the instructors who have
: to go through the process of being certified by
one or the other, or both.
: Just curious, when someone pays $400 for a
basic keelboat course, how much
: of that goes back to ASA or USSa?
:
: Schools pay a flat rate for membership. They
have to join to be competitive
: now that the "Certification" paper is what they
are selling. Students feel
: the paper means something and don't understand
it is the skills that are
: important and the paper is meaningless.
:
: Student fees include book costs, tests, and the
log book. I'll can only
: guess what the total is.
:
: Insurance is a muddy issue. Instructor are
forced to pay for insurance.
: This is a scam since the schools already have
insurance. bogUS Sailing
: both claims this fee is both insurance and not
for insurance, but insists
: instructors pay it anyway to be recertified. I
lost my cool over this
: last year. How can they say it is and that it
isn't for insurance? What
: hogwash! I want a written answer on this one.
:
: When I signed up the only requirement for
recertification was up to date
: First Aid and CPR certifications. Now a bogus
insurance fee is attached.
: Again, they say it is not for insurance, but
that is what it pays for--so
: that
: is what it is. Try to get a straight answer out
of them on that one. And
: they won't put and answer down on paper either!
:
:
: As to the "governing body" issue, this is a
byproduct of the Olympic
: Committee process, where one and only one
group (and I assume it must be
: non-profit) must be designated as the
governing body for each sport, and
: is responsible for the Olympic and
Pan-American teams, plus certain other
: functions. For better or worse, USSailing is
the organization the fits
: this role.
:
: I don't think it is perfect, but it works, and
you get something for your
: money--race committees. However, I refuse to
take a Safety at Sea
: seminar from someone who knows less about it
than I, when I know
: the reason they won't place people out of such
things is because of
: the profits they make on these courses. I'd
prefer to race unofficially
: and display a "Boycott USSailing.org" decal on
my boat, and offer to
: take only it off if they pay me.
:
: Did you know someone recently proposed raising
the grievance fee
: to raise more money at US Sailing? How could
they even consider
: such a thing. In the spirit of fairness there
should not be any fee
: associated with filing a grievance! Screw them.
What a bunch of
: asshole. It is clear US Sailing is all about
money, not about improving
: the sport.
:
: I agree with Doug that there is an appearance
that they support
: and recognize certain sailor that are "in".
Those can do no wrong.
: The more awards the heap on them, the more
valuable they are to
: the organization. It's like blowing up a
balloon. There is little to
: back it up but what was already there.
:
: All of the behind the scenes ego trips, back
stabbing, conflicts of
: interest, power plays, pseudo-scandals, etc.
seem to be par for the course
: with large (or small) non-profits. As opposed
to for-profits which have
: the same mishigas, but its called "business."
:
: I disagree. Such an organization should have a
standard of excellence.
:
: I'd prefer to see US Sailing have delegates that
actually represent
: members. If I can sign up 1000 members I could
then represent them
: and fight their agendas. Does anyone want to be
first to sign my list?
: I'd love to battle US Sailing in their den. I'd
love to fight to make them
: change the ridiculous way they operate. They
are so inept.
:
:

I like and admire Rich too. My only beef with him, and
it is a big one, is he refused to document 151 days of
sea time I had with him in 1995 which delayed getting
my USCG license considerably. The reason being he
was afraid of the USCG. I was not the only one hurt by
that policy. Is it favoritism to document sea time only
for employees with USCG licenses? I think so. Equal
credit for equal work. That is fair. If he was worried
about the consequences he should have taken action
himself to clarify the matter with the USCG.

Other than that. I'll give credit where it is due. His school
is probably the best in the world. And his techniques are
the best for instruction--thoroughly refined and perfected.
I'd send my own family members to learn there.

US Sailing is, I'm told, working with the USCG to make
some changes to give exemptions to the licensing requirement
for sailing instructors. Frankly, I feel bogUS Sailing has
screwed up horribly by not having this done ten years ago,
given the problem was well known at that time. Frankly
I don't expect any progress in that area, because I've seen
nothing in print on the subject. Without documentation
there is never accountability.

If they can pay to lobby to be the "Governing Body of
the Sport, why can't they lobby to make important changes
that would benefit sailing instructors? It's because it won't
make them any money. An effort like this take a concerted
effort, constant pressure, public editorials, phone calls from
lots of people to make it happen--not one guy's part-time
effort. If I had the responsibility to make this happen I
could make it happen in one year. If I didn't I'd be working
to get someone fired in the USCG.

Lets watch. I'll bet nothing happens. Then will you agree that
bogUS Sailing is inept? Will you speak out about it to put
pressure on the subject? Ten years from now they will
still be talking about this and saying they are making progress.

Tell me Steve. Do you know who is paid at US Sailing? Do
you know how much they make? Have you seen an accurate
spreadsheet showing how all the money is spent? Why do they
hide this information? Why is it not displayed as a file on there
web site? Why are meeting minutes so terse?

Things I've been told about never show up in meeting minutes.
That is either proof they do not document things, or proof they
are not doing the things they claim to be doing.

I think their insurance is worth investigation. Why is there not
a more competitive process for insurance. They only have one
insurance provider. That smells like kickback to me.

One final point. I think bogUS Sailing should lose it's non-profit
status--because they do not represent their constituents.

I think I'll look up the tax laws on the subject. I'll bet I can
find an issue to support my assertion. Stirring the pot can only
improve bogUS Sailing and maybe it will make them into an
organization worth joining.


"NotPony" wrote
I also have a great deal of respect for Rich
Jepsen. He has done well in leading the training
committee in rewriting the level II training and
they are almost done the rewrite of the level I
and Start Sailing Right.
No, US SAILING isn't perfect, but I think it does
well with it's small staff and volunteers.
S.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message news:XbXTf.8



One final point. I think bogUS Sailing should lose it's non-profit
status--because they do not represent their constituents.

If that is part of their bylaws, you may have them. Usually a slim chance.

However if you can show that profits are directed back toward officers and
directors you do then have them. It may not have to be monetary profit,
maybe just some unusual perks or preferential treatment.

Also check for political bias.



I think I'll look up the tax laws on the subject. I'll bet I can
find an issue to support my assertion.

It may be better to audit their books.

US SAILING's financial statements and budgets are
available on their website.
S.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message
...
: I like and admire Rich too. My only beef with
him, and
: it is a big one, is he refused to document 151
days of
: sea time I had with him in 1995 which delayed
getting
: my USCG license considerably. The reason being
he
: was afraid of the USCG. I was not the only one
hurt by
: that policy. Is it favoritism to document sea
time only
: for employees with USCG licenses? I think so.
Equal
: credit for equal work. That is fair. If he
was worried
: about the consequences he should have taken
action
: himself to clarify the matter with the USCG.
:
: Other than that. I'll give credit where it is
due. His school
: is probably the best in the world. And his
techniques are
: the best for instruction--thoroughly refined and
perfected.
: I'd send my own family members to learn there.
:
: US Sailing is, I'm told, working with the USCG
to make
: some changes to give exemptions to the licensing
requirement
: for sailing instructors. Frankly, I feel bogUS
Sailing has
: screwed up horribly by not having this done ten
years ago,
: given the problem was well known at that time.
Frankly
: I don't expect any progress in that area,
because I've seen
: nothing in print on the subject. Without
documentation
: there is never accountability.
:
: If they can pay to lobby to be the "Governing
Body of
: the Sport, why can't they lobby to make
important changes
: that would benefit sailing instructors? It's
because it won't
: make them any money. An effort like this take a
concerted
: effort, constant pressure, public editorials,
phone calls from
: lots of people to make it happen--not one guy's
part-time
: effort. If I had the responsibility to make
this happen I
: could make it happen in one year. If I didn't
I'd be working
: to get someone fired in the USCG.
:
: Lets watch. I'll bet nothing happens. Then
will you agree that
: bogUS Sailing is inept? Will you speak out
about it to put
: pressure on the subject? Ten years from now
they will
: still be talking about this and saying they are
making progress.
:
: Tell me Steve. Do you know who is paid at US
Sailing? Do
: you know how much they make? Have you seen an
accurate
: spreadsheet showing how all the money is spent?
Why do they
: hide this information? Why is it not displayed
as a file on there
: web site? Why are meeting minutes so terse?
:
: Things I've been told about never show up in
meeting minutes.
: That is either proof they do not document
things, or proof they
: are not doing the things they claim to be doing.
:
: I think their insurance is worth investigation.
Why is there not
: a more competitive process for insurance. They
only have one
: insurance provider. That smells like kickback
to me.
:
: One final point. I think bogUS Sailing should
lose it's non-profit
: status--because they do not represent their
constituents.
:
: I think I'll look up the tax laws on the
subject. I'll bet I can
: find an issue to support my assertion. Stirring
the pot can only
: improve bogUS Sailing and maybe it will make
them into an
: organization worth joining.
:
:
: "NotPony" wrote
: I also have a great deal of respect for Rich
: Jepsen. He has done well in leading the
training
: committee in rewriting the level II training
and
: they are almost done the rewrite of the level
I
: and Start Sailing Right.
: No, US SAILING isn't perfect, but I think it
does
: well with it's small staff and volunteers.
: S.
:
: