You don't need to use any special type of lure, I will
rise to any bait on the subject of US Sailing.

I hold US Sailing's Training Program in contempt. I
will continue to be vocal about it.

Please feel free to bait me on the subject any time.

Amen!

"Bob Crantz" wrote

I don't think I could possibly do a better job of landing a giant
Bart-fish than this!

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ...


"Bob Crantz" wrote

I don't think I could possibly do a better job of landing a giant
Bart-fish than this!



I didn't write the above.

Amen!

But I did say "Great smackdown"

Amen!

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ...
Let me start by apologizing to you Jean. I let my deep
seated anger towards US Sailing spill over into my
response to you. You seemed to represent US Sailing
so I directed my anger towards you. My behavior was
rude and unacceptable--unbecoming of an officer. Please
accept my sincere, humble, apology for my rude behavior.

In my defense, I can only state that I have sound reasons
for my enmity towards US Sailing. I'd be happy to relate
them to you.

I hold US Sailing's keelboat training organization in contempt.
To a lesser degree, I hold the management of US Sailing in
contempt for not fixing the many problems they have within
the organization. Based on my experience, Sail Training is
much less important to US Sailing relative to it's root activities
in racing.

These things have nothing to do with you, or the fine job US
Sailing does with respect to the US Olympics, their small boat
training program, or their excellent work in the area of racing.

One beef I have is that US Sailing does not represent sailing
instructors. The people that run the program represent the
commercial sailing schools.

For example the present US Sailing Training Chairman owns a
sailing school. I have a degree of respect for him in that he started
the program and along with the owners of several other sailing
schools. The majority the IT's were picked from these sailing
schools without a standards based selection process. So now
you have a situation where, a few commerical sailing school
owners control the US Sailing Training Program. Many of the
IT's are close minded and assumed. The title IT gives them an
arrogant air and my experience is they refuse to accept any opinion but
there own.

While US Sailing is Non-Profit. Sail Training is being run by
individuals who own For-Profit concerns. It is clear their
motivations are biased.

This profound bias is the underlying cause for many of the
complaints I have with US Sailing. Unqualifed people have been
put in charge of training programs. The egos of some of these
people put their own opinions ahead of the standards that have
been developed. Any outside suggestions are now shoved aside.
Many instructors I know, have given up on trying to reason with
this unwieldy buracracy.

I've witnessed situations where co-IT's have disagreed on
training methods. I've seens some of these ego-centric instructor
demand instructor candidates follow and be evaluated on their
methods, in direct contradiction to documented US Sailng procedures.

I've seen blantant favoritism given towards one individual. On
the other hand, I was chastized by two IT's for simply demanding
equal fair treatment. After this I was hounded by one IT for
the rest of the course. My repeated attempt to discuss this
matter with US Sailing official fell on deaf ears. I never recieved
the refund I demanded.

I feel the Man-Overboard diagram in the US Sailing manual
needs to be changed. Three years ago I wrote the President
of US Sailing about this and was brushed off. I recently
brought the subject up again and it was quashed again. It is
important enough that I feel it deserves more study. Don't
you agree that potentially life saving safety issues should be
reviewed with an open mind, and given an opportunity to
for more than a brief review?

Each time I've raised an issue through proper channels with
US Sailing, I have been brushed off, ignored and treated with
contempt. The single time I've gotten a response from US Sailing
was when I wrote an letter to the editor submitting US Sailing for
a Moosehead Award. And in this case I again felt brushed off,
and was never given the formal written response that was
promised to me by the Training Chair.

US Sailing is reluctant to put anything in writing because like any
bureacracy the staff is playing CYA.

I spent a career in the US Air Force where integrity, and a
standard of excellence was the norm. My experience with US
Sailing is that of a bumbling bureaucracy unwilling to take a hard
look at itself to fix's it's own problems. Until they do I shall
speak out and let the world know that US Sailing is not lily
white, not God's gift to sailing, and inept with respect to their
sail training program.

I want to thank you also for making it clear to me that I should
continue my crusade against US Sailing. I shall reopen my dialog
with US Sailing and press my issues.

US Sailing versus ASA

I still feel that US Sailings Keelboat program is virtually
identical to the ASA program for the reasons I stated earlier.
I don't see how you cannot agree with me on this point
given the material, course content, course names, and the
identical RYA source of each program.

I will agree with you that ASA is not involved in community
sailing. I am not aware of any community program that uses
keelboats, except for the US Navy's Morale Welfare and
Recreational organization, which is specifically designed for
Active Duty US Military and Retirees, and supported by
US Navy funding. I do not know of any other community
progarm that uses small boats.

In the narrow area of what ASA does, keelboat training, US
Sailing's program is no different. US Sailing certifying keelboat
schools are, in fact, commercial ventures.

Can you give me one good reason why instructor and student
certifications from ASA should not be accepted in US Sailing?

In the area of Keelboat Training. How is US Sailing different
than ASA given that the owners of US Sailing certifed commerical
sailing schools control US Sailing keelboat training program to the
same degree as ASA?

CONGRESS

I was unaware that Congress granted US Sailing the Title
of Governing Body of the Sport. I still feel strongly that it
an unfair competitive advantage Congress has given to US
Sailing over the ASA. Congress should specifically exclude
this title in the area of keelboat training as this gives an unfair
competitive advantage to US Sailing keelboat training schools.
Thanks for making me aware of this.

While I am not in favor of ASA in particular, I shall be sure to
write my representatives to discuss this matter with them.

In any event, if this title is ever disputed by ASA in the courts,
and I sincerely hope they do so, I feel confident this point would
be legally overturned for the reasons I've stated.

Have you ever worked in a large corporation?

Glory!

I worked for a major telecom firm and the US Air Force.

AMEN

"Bob Crantz" wrote

Have you ever worked in a large corporation?

Glory!

"Bob Crantz" wrote in message
news

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message
...
Let me start by apologizing to you Jean. I let my deep
seated anger towards US Sailing spill over into my
response to you. You seemed to represent US Sailing
so I directed my anger towards you. My behavior was
rude and unacceptable--unbecoming of an officer. Please
accept my sincere, humble, apology for my rude behavior.

In my defense, I can only state that I have sound
reasons
for my enmity towards US Sailing. I'd be happy to
relate
them to you.

I hold US Sailing's keelboat training organization in
contempt.
To a lesser degree, I hold the management of US Sailing
in
contempt for not fixing the many problems they have
within
the organization. Based on my experience, Sail Training
is
much less important to US Sailing relative to it's root
activities
in racing.

These things have nothing to do with you, or the fine
job US
Sailing does with respect to the US Olympics, their
small boat
training program, or their excellent work in the area of
racing.

One beef I have is that US Sailing does not represent
sailing
instructors. The people that run the program represent
the
commercial sailing schools.

For example the present US Sailing Training Chairman
owns a
sailing school. I have a degree of respect for him in
that he started
the program and along with the owners of several other
sailing
schools. The majority the IT's were picked from these
sailing
schools without a standards based selection process. So
now
you have a situation where, a few commerical sailing
school
owners control the US Sailing Training Program. Many of
the
IT's are close minded and assumed. The title IT gives
them an
arrogant air and my experience is they refuse to accept
any opinion but
there own.

While US Sailing is Non-Profit. Sail Training is being
run by
individuals who own For-Profit concerns. It is clear
their
motivations are biased.

This profound bias is the underlying cause for many of
the
complaints I have with US Sailing. Unqualifed people
have been
put in charge of training programs. The egos of some of
these
people put their own opinions ahead of the standards
that have
been developed. Any outside suggestions are now shoved
aside.
Many instructors I know, have given up on trying to
reason with
this unwieldy buracracy.

I've witnessed situations where co-IT's have disagreed
on
training methods. I've seens some of these ego-centric
instructor
demand instructor candidates follow and be evaluated on
their
methods, in direct contradiction to documented US Sailng
procedures.

I've seen blantant favoritism given towards one
individual. On
the other hand, I was chastized by two IT's for simply
demanding
equal fair treatment. After this I was hounded by one
IT for
the rest of the course. My repeated attempt to discuss
this
matter with US Sailing official fell on deaf ears. I
never recieved
the refund I demanded.

I feel the Man-Overboard diagram in the US Sailing
manual
needs to be changed. Three years ago I wrote the
President
of US Sailing about this and was brushed off. I
recently
brought the subject up again and it was quashed again.
It is
important enough that I feel it deserves more study.
Don't
you agree that potentially life saving safety issues
should be
reviewed with an open mind, and given an opportunity to
for more than a brief review?

Each time I've raised an issue through proper channels
with
US Sailing, I have been brushed off, ignored and treated
with
contempt. The single time I've gotten a response from
US Sailing
was when I wrote an letter to the editor submitting US
Sailing for
a Moosehead Award. And in this case I again felt
brushed off,
and was never given the formal written response that was
promised to me by the Training Chair.

US Sailing is reluctant to put anything in writing
because like any
bureacracy the staff is playing CYA.

I spent a career in the US Air Force where integrity,
and a
standard of excellence was the norm. My experience with
US
Sailing is that of a bumbling bureaucracy unwilling to
take a hard
look at itself to fix's it's own problems. Until they
do I shall
speak out and let the world know that US Sailing is not
lily
white, not God's gift to sailing, and inept with respect
to their
sail training program.

I want to thank you also for making it clear to me that
I should
continue my crusade against US Sailing. I shall reopen
my dialog
with US Sailing and press my issues.

US Sailing versus ASA

I still feel that US Sailings Keelboat program is
virtually
identical to the ASA program for the reasons I stated
earlier.
I don't see how you cannot agree with me on this point
given the material, course content, course names, and
the
identical RYA source of each program.
I hold US Sailing's keelboat training organization in
contempt.
To a lesser degree, I hold the management of US Sailing
in
contempt for not fixing the many problems they have
within
the organization. Based on my experience, Sail Training
is
much less important to US Sailing relative to it's root
activities
in racing.

These things have nothing to do with you, or the fine
job US
Sailing does with respect to the US Olympics, their
small boat
training program, or their excellent work in the area of
racing.

One beef I have is that US Sailing does not represent
sailing
instructors. The people that run the program represent
the
commercial sailing schools.

For example the present US Sailing Training Chairman
owns a
sailing school. I have a degree of respect for him in
that he started
the program and along with the owners of several other
sailing
schools. The majority the IT's were picked from these
sailing
schools without a standards based selection process. So
now
you have a situation where, a few commerical sailing
school
owners control the US Sailing Training Program. Many of
the
IT's are close minded and assumed. The title IT gives
them an
arrogant air and my experience is they refuse to accept
any opinion but
there own.

While US Sailing is Non-Profit. Sail Training is being
run by
individuals who own For-Profit concerns. It is clear
their
motivations are biased.

This profound bias is the underlying cause for many of
the
complaints I have with US Sailing. Unqualifed people
have been
put in charge of training programs. The egos of some of
these
people put their own opinions ahead of the standards
that have
been developed. Any outside suggestions are now shoved
aside.
Many instructors I know, have given up on trying to
reason with
this unwieldy buracracy.

I've witnessed situations where co-IT's have disagreed
on
training methods. I've seens some of these ego-centric
instructor
demand instructor candidates follow and be evaluated on
their
methods, in direct contradiction to documented US Sailng
procedures.

I've seen blantant favoritism given towards one
individual. On
the other hand, I was chastized by two IT's for simply
demanding
equal fair treatment. After this I was hounded by one
IT for
the rest of the course. My repeated attempt to discuss
this
matter with US Sailing official fell on deaf ears. I
never recieved
the refund I demanded.

I feel the Man-Overboard diagram in the US Sailing
manual
needs to be changed. Three years ago I wrote the
President
of US Sailing about this and was brushed off. I
recently
brought the subject up again and it was quashed again.
It is
important enough that I feel it deserves more study.
Don't
you agree that potentially life saving safety issues
should be
reviewed with an open mind, and given an opportunity to
for more than a brief review?

Each time I've raised an issue through proper channels
with
US Sailing, I have been brushed off, ignored and treated
with
contempt. The single time I've gotten a response from
US Sailing
was when I wrote an letter to the editor submitting US
Sailing for
a Moosehead Award. And in this case I again felt
brushed off,
and was never given the formal written response that was
promised to me by the Training Chair.

US Sailing is reluctant to put anything in writing
because like any
bureacracy the staff is playing CYA.

I spent a career in the US Air Force where integrity,
and a
standard of excellence was the norm. My experience with
US
Sailing is that of a bumbling bureaucracy unwilling to
take a hard
look at itself to fix's it's own problems. Until they
do I shall
speak out and let the world know that US Sailing is not
lily
white, not God's gift to sailing, and inept with respect
to their
sail training program.

I want to thank you also for making it clear to me that
I should
continue my crusade against US Sailing. I shall reopen
my dialog
with US Sailing and press my issues.

US Sailing versus ASA

I still feel that US Sailings Keelboat program is
virtually
identical to the ASA program for the reasons I stated
earlier.
I don't see how you cannot agree with me on this point
given the material, course content, course names, and
the
identical RYA source of each program.

I will agree with you that ASA is not involved in
community
sailing. I am not aware of any community program that
uses
keelboats, except for the US Navy's Morale Welfare and
Recreational organization, which is specifically
designed for
Active Duty US Military and Retirees, and supported by
US Navy funding. I do not know of any other community
progarm that uses small boats. I hold US Sailing's
keelboat training organization in contempt.
To a lesser degree, I hold the management of US Sailing
in
contempt for not fixing the many problems they have
within
the organization. Based on my experience, Sail Training
is
much less important to US Sailing relative to it's root
activities
in racing.

These things have nothing to do with you, or the fine
job US
Sailing does with respect to the US Olympics, their
small boat
training program, or their excellent work in the area of
racing.

One beef I have is that US Sailing does not represent
sailing
instructors. The people that run the program represent
the
commercial sailing schools.

For example the present US Sailing Training Chairman
owns a
sailing school. I have a degree of respect for him in
that he started
the program and along with the owners of several other
sailing
schools. The majority the IT's were picked from these
sailing
schools without a standards based selection process. So
now
you have a situation where, a few commerical sailing
school
owners control the US Sailing Training Program. Many of
the
IT's are close minded and assumed. The title IT gives
them an
arrogant air and my experience is they refuse to accept
any opinion but
there own.

While US Sailing is Non-Profit. Sail Training is being
run by
individuals who own For-Profit concerns. It is clear
their
motivations are biased.

This profound bias is the underlying cause for many of
the
complaints I have with US Sailing. Unqualifed people
have been
put in charge of training programs. The egos of some of
these
people put their own opinions ahead of the standards
that have
been developed. Any outside suggestions are now shoved
aside.
Many instructors I know, have given up on trying to
reason with
this unwieldy buracracy.

I've witnessed situations where co-IT's have disagreed
on
training methods. I've seens some of these ego-centric
instructor
demand instructor candidates follow and be evaluated on
their
methods, in direct contradiction to documented US Sailng
procedures.

I've seen blantant favoritism given towards one
individual. On
the other hand, I was chastized by two IT's for simply
demanding
equal fair treatment. After this I was hounded by one
IT for
the rest of the course. My repeated attempt to discuss
this
matter with US Sailing official fell on deaf ears. I
never recieved
the refund I demanded.

I feel the Man-Overboard diagram in the US Sailing
manual
needs to be changed. Three years ago I wrote the
President
of US Sailing about this and was brushed off. I
recently
brought the subject up again and it was quashed again.
It is
important enough that I feel it deserves more study.
Don't
you agree that potentially life saving safety issues
should be
reviewed with an open mind, and given an opportunity to
for more than a brief review?

Each time I've raised an issue through proper channels
with
US Sailing, I have been brushed off, ignored and treated
with
contempt. The single time I've gotten a response from
US Sailing
was when I wrote an letter to the editor submitting US
Sailing for
a Moosehead Award. And in this case I again felt
brushed off,
and was never given the formal written response that was
promised to me by the Training Chair.

US Sailing is reluctant to put anything in writing
because like any
bureacracy the staff is playing CYA.

I spent a career in the US Air Force where integrity,
and a
standard of excellence was the norm. My experience with
US
Sailing is that of a bumbling bureaucracy unwilling to
take a hard
look at itself to fix's it's own problems. Until they
do I shall
speak out and let the world know that US Sailing is not
lily
white, not God's gift to sailing, and inept with respect
to their
sail training program.

I want to thank you also for making it clear to me that
I should
continue my crusade against US Sailing. I shall reopen
my dialog
with US Sailing and press my issues.

US Sailing versus ASA

I still feel that US Sailings Keelboat program is
virtually
identical to the ASA program for the reasons I stated
earlier.
I don't see how you cannot agree with me on this point
given the material, course content, course names, and
the
identical RYA source of each program.

I will agree with you that ASA is not involved in
community
sailing. I am not aware of any community program that
uses
keelboats, except for the US Navy's Morale Welfare and
Recreational organization, which is specifically
designed for
Active Duty US Military and Retirees, and supported by
US Navy funding. I do not know of any other community
progarm that uses small boats.
I will agree with you that ASA is not involved in
community
sailing. I am not aware of any community program that
uses
keelboats, except for the US Navy's Morale Welfare and
Recreational organization, which is specifically
designed for
Active Duty US Military and Retirees, and supported by
US Navy funding. I do not know of any other community
progarm that uses small boats.

In the narrow area of what ASA does, keelboat training,
US
Sailing's program is no different. US Sailing
certifying keelboat
schools are, in fact, commercial ventures.

Can you give me one good reason why instructor and
student
certifications from ASA should not be accepted in US
Sailing?

In the area of Keelboat Training. How is US Sailing
different
than ASA given that the owners of US Sailing certifed
commerical
sailing schools control US Sailing keelboat training
program to the
same degree as ASA?

CONGRESS

I was unaware that Congress granted US Sailing the Title
of Governing Body of the Sport. I still feel strongly
that it
an unfair competitive advantage Congress has given to US
Sailing over the ASA. Congress should specifically
exclude
this title in the area of keelboat training as this
gives an unfair
competitive advantage to US Sailing keelboat training
schools.
Thanks for making me aware of this.

While I am not in favor of ASA in particular, I shall be
sure to
write my representatives to discuss this matter with
them.

In any event, if this title is ever disputed by ASA in
the courts,
and I sincerely hope they do so, I feel confident this
point would
be legally overturned for the reasons I've stated.

Have you ever worked in a large corporation?


Have you ever heard of 'snipping'?

SV

Why don't you introduce yourself. You must work for
US Sailing in some capacity. Please elaborate.


Jean Pudl wrote:
No connection at all, other than having been a member for several
periods. I have, however, been a beneficiary of their work on numerous
occasions, in particular, whenever I've raced.

How so?

I've raced quite a lot, from local clubs to international
events, and didn't feel that I benefitted at all from USSA.

In fact, on at least one occasion, their short-sightedness &
nepotism cost me several finishes. But that's probably the
fault of individuals, not the whole organization.






So you think the clients of ASA are yuppies? That is
funny!


That's the demographic (more or less) of those who are seeking the
keelboat certification offered by both USSailing and ASA. The
difference is that this is the only business of ASA, because that's
where the money is. USSailing, on the other hand, serves the entire
boating community.


And does US Sailing offer anything to the 'cruising
education oriented' boating community that ASA does not?

ASA was there first, in fact at one point US Sailing stated
as their official policy that they would rather not get
involved in certification for keelboat sailing & cruising
education, since there were so many other groups already
doing this (ASA and the Power Squadron). Then they saw the
revenue potential and changed their minds.




.... And from my point of view,
claiming the two organizations are "identical" is ludicrous.


I don't think the claim was made that the two organizations
were identical. I think that the claim was made there there
is small difference between certifications offered by
them... which is true.




The rest of your material is interesting, but misses the point. US
Sailing IS the "National Governing Body" of the sport according to an
act of Congress. That is a matter of fact.

Big deal. Other than changing the rules unecessarily and
mismanaging protests, what do they actually DO? Collect
money. Yeah, that's a "service."


... They are the folks that run
the national team, send sailers to the Olympics,

In other words, they sponge up money from many sources and
hand it to their favorite butt-kisser boy racers.

The last time the Olympic sailing team was decided on the
water, by cumulative series regatta results, a friend of
mine ended representing the US in his class... and the USSA
favorites all screamed bloody murder. Since then, it's been
a nepotism system.

Don't get me wrong on this, the U.S. Olympic sailors are
great athletes and very skilled... but I would describe
USSA's role in the selection process as interfering,
money-laundering, and playing favorites.



...trains the race
committees, etc.

Don't get me started on that. I struggled on correcting
their race committee training for years. USSA has a habit of
producing inflexible big-headed tyrants for PROs.






USSailing IS the "National Governing Body" by act of Congress.

And I guess the benevolent Congress awarded them this
distinction out of recognition for their outstanding service
to humanity?

No, US Sailing paid some lobbysits to get it done. A comment
on the state of both the Congress and US Sailing.


The main reason for an individual sailor to join USSA is to
avoid their extortion on regatta entry fees. I don't
understand any reason why a club or class would join USSA,
other than "recognition." The cost to benefit ratio is
totally out of whack IMHO.

I've had vice presidents of USSA tell me that dinghy sailing
is a dying sport and they don't want to waste money trying
to bring it back. Yet they are happy to collect money from
all the centerboard one-designs! I've also heard big boat
sailors bitch that USSA uses their higher fees to subsidize
small one-design racing. So apparently both camps are
getting screwed.

BTW collegiate sailing is directly administered by the IYRA.

If you want the facts, Jean, here they are. I remember when
the governing body for the sport of sailing (ie racing) was
NAYRU and it's been downhill since then.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"Mys Terry" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 19 Mar 2006 19:49:52 -0700, "Bob Crantz"
wrote:


"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ...


"Bob Crantz" wrote

I don't think I could possibly do a better job of landing a giant
Bart-fish than this!



I didn't write the above.

Amen!

But I did say "Great smackdown"

Amen!


If you want a REAL laugh at Bart's expense got to the website of the FOR
PROFIT
sailing school where he teaches and look at who their instructors are
accredited
by (slogan and all) at the top of the home page.

http://www.soundsailingcenter.com/


I have no reason to laugh at Bart. He likes sailing and goes and teaches it.
What's wrong with doing something for profit?

Amen!

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ...
I worked for a major telecom firm and the US Air Force.

AMEN

"Bob Crantz" wrote

Have you ever worked in a large corporation?

Glory!



There's a big difference between the military culture and "corporate"
culture.

There is a large degree of accountability in the military and if it doesn't
work out, you're out. The jobs rotate every two years.

In the corporate world, the employees(management) set the rules. The rules
are designed to protect their own positions. This type of structure attracts
weak people with personality disorders. The jobs can last for years and
fifedoms can be set up. The same goes with any large organization other than
the military. In other words, wierd dysfunctional people flourish in these
type of organizations. Anyone who applies logic, rationality and expects
integrity will soon be disappointed or even flushed out. Those who fail to
realize this will eventually suffer psychological damage to some degree. In
dealing with these organizations expect the worst and act upon their weak
spots or centers of gravity. Deal with people on their weaknesses, not their
strengths. It's not a mutual win-win, it's either you or them.

If you want sanity and integrity, find some small company or start your own
business.

Amen!

Bart,
US SAILING was awarded the title of NGB of sailing
by congress through the Armature Sports Act. It
is not a self-awarded title.
S.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message
...
: US Sailing has a lot of nerve calling themselves
: "The Governing Body of Sailing".
:
: I'm glad to see ASA is taking the same approach.
: Tit for tat.
:
: Self-awarded titles are meaningless.
:
:
: "ARG" wrote in
:
: The governing body of sailing within the
: USA, the American Sailing Association,
: has designed a number of courses aimed
: at differing levels of sailing ability.
: .
:
: Read Full Article
: At: http://tinyurl.com/r5ky3
:
:

Bart,
What's your gripe with US SAILING? Sounds like a
personal issue.
I have heard of more instructors moving from ASA
to US SAILING than visa versa.
S.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message
...
: You don't need to use any special type of lure,
I will
: rise to any bait on the subject of US Sailing.
:
: I hold US Sailing's Training Program in
contempt. I
: will continue to be vocal about it.
:
: Please feel free to bait me on the subject any
time.
:
: Amen!
:
: "Bob Crantz" wrote
:
: I don't think I could possibly do a better
job of landing a giant
: Bart-fish than this!
:
: