"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article . net,
Maxprop wrote:

Actually I have. I've watched the process at three separate slaughter
houses, and yes it ain't pretty. But it's hardly clubbing the animals,
skinning them while still alive, and allowing them to die in agony.

Nope, it's raising them in confined pens, feeding them rations
formulated to maximise weight gain and desired marbling, loading them
onto trucks using cattle prods and the like, transporting them to a
place of slaughter where they are usually deprived of food & water, or
at least on minimum rations, then forcing them through more races to a
place of slaughter, where they can smell the ones in front dying.

That's a far cry from the description I gave above. Downright humane by
comparison, actually. They may be able to hear and smell the death of their
fellow steers, but they cannot cognitively process that information beyond
simply becoming alarmed. The beef I saw being slaughtered simply resisted
being pushed toward the slaughter pit, no differently than they resisted
being pushed into the barn back at the feed lot or being pushed into a
trailer for transportation.

Perhaps, but the differences are profound. Perhaps you should view a
harp
seal harvest before making such ridiculous claims.

What ridiculous claims have I made? I said that *both* were abhorrent.
Is this a ridiculous claim?

IMO, it's ridiculous to compare a beef slaughterhouse with the harp seal
harvest. That's my opinion, and you won't change it. I've seen both.

I think clubbing, and then live-skinning, any animal should be a
criminal offence. I don't care if they're being killed, as long as it's
fast & humane and the kill is within sustainable harvest levels.

Agreed.

As for intensively farmed livestock, the *only* bit of their lives that
may be described as humane is the kill. The differences aren't as
profound as you might like to believe.

I think you've tended to anthropomorphize livestock. Steers are not
sentient, therefore don't really give a rat's posterior as to what
conditions they live in, nor for the congestion or crowding. But animals
can suffer pain and a lingering death. There are huge differences between
the way livestock is raised and slaughtered and the harp seal harvest.

Max

In article .net,
Maxprop wrote:

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article . net,
Maxprop wrote:

Actually I have. I've watched the process at three separate slaughter
houses, and yes it ain't pretty. But it's hardly clubbing the animals,
skinning them while still alive, and allowing them to die in agony.

Nope, it's raising them in confined pens, feeding them rations
formulated to maximise weight gain and desired marbling, loading them
onto trucks using cattle prods and the like, transporting them to a
place of slaughter where they are usually deprived of food & water, or
at least on minimum rations, then forcing them through more races to a
place of slaughter, where they can smell the ones in front dying.

That's a far cry from the description I gave above. Downright humane by
comparison, actually. They may be able to hear and smell the death of their
fellow steers, but they cannot cognitively process that information beyond
simply becoming alarmed. The beef I saw being slaughtered simply resisted
being pushed toward the slaughter pit, no differently than they resisted
being pushed into the barn back at the feed lot or being pushed into a
trailer for transportation.

Perhaps, but the differences are profound. Perhaps you should view a
harp
seal harvest before making such ridiculous claims.

What ridiculous claims have I made? I said that *both* were abhorrent.
Is this a ridiculous claim?

IMO, it's ridiculous to compare a beef slaughterhouse with the harp seal
harvest. That's my opinion, and you won't change it. I've seen both.

I think clubbing, and then live-skinning, any animal should be a
criminal offence. I don't care if they're being killed, as long as it's
fast & humane and the kill is within sustainable harvest levels.

Agreed.

As for intensively farmed livestock, the *only* bit of their lives that
may be described as humane is the kill. The differences aren't as
profound as you might like to believe.

I think you've tended to anthropomorphize livestock.

Not hardly. I took my first degree in biology and have been responsible
both directly and morally for killing more animals than probably anyone
else on this n/g. I was a fisheries biologist for years and used to
kill literally tonnes of fish. If the odd marine mammal drowned in the
process - cost of doing business. Ditto albatross etc we accidentally
caught on troll lines. Then I worked in animal production R&D for 10
years as a hands-on s/ware developer. Once again we killed a huge
amount of livestock - chickens, pigs, cattle, sheep - as a routine part
of the work. You'd have to look far & wide to find someone less likely
to anthropomorphise livestock.

Flip side is, my opinions are based on first hand observations over
quite a long period of time. What are yours based on? Ever worked in a
piggery? How about a battery chicken farm? Cattle feedlot holding
50,000 head? What do you know about the drug regimes necessary to
suppress diseases and the number of animals with subacute infections,
or the witholding periods? Acceptable death rates from being fed
rations that are designed to make the steers fat to meet a particular
market niche?

Steers are not
sentient,

Harp seals aren't sentient either. What's your point?

therefore don't really give a rat's posterior as to what
conditions they live in, nor for the congestion or crowding.

I'm sure that's a comforting belief for you, Max, but I firmly
disagree, and I've *worked* on feedlots. Steers most certainly do
suffer health problems from being crowded into small pens, having to
jostle to feed out of troughs instead of graze, having to play
dominance games to get adequate shade/shelter, etc etc. You'll never be
able to prove whether they care or not as the beasts can't talk, but
it's most certainly possible to prove the ill effects on health from
the intensive rearing practises.

And what about intensive rearing of pigs? If you're going to tell me
that pigs don't know about and suffer under the conditions we subject
them to, I'm going to laugh in your face. Pigs are smart & playful if
allowed to be.

But animals
can suffer pain and a lingering death. There are huge differences between
the way livestock is raised and slaughtered and the harp seal harvest.

As I said in the first place, there's a lot smaller difference than you
want to think, when it comes to comparing factory livestock rearing. I
understand why you want to hold onto your beliefs, but you're
convincing nobody, least of all me.

I'm done with this. Get back to me after you've worked in a feedlot,
intensive piggery or similar and then we'll see if your opinion is
still the same. As for the seal harvest, I already said that anyone who
doesn't make sure the animal is dead before skinning it is a barbarian
and a criminal IMO.

PDW

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..

Flip side is, my opinions are based on first hand observations over
quite a long period of time. What are yours based on? Ever worked in a
piggery? How about a battery chicken farm? Cattle feedlot holding
50,000 head? What do you know about the drug regimes necessary to
suppress diseases and the number of animals with subacute infections,
or the witholding periods? Acceptable death rates from being fed
rations that are designed to make the steers fat to meet a particular
market niche?

Only what I've read, which isn't much on the subjects you've raised. But
that has very little to do with anything in this discussion. You seem to
imply that animals cultured for food suffer mental turmoil at various points
along the process of raising them for slaughter. While I'm not fond of many
of the practices utilized in the meat and egg industries these days, I'm
certainly not worried about the psyche of a chicken crowded into a cage
along with five or six others, or a steer being roughly shoved toward the
kill station of a slaughterhouse.


Steers are not
sentient,

Harp seals aren't sentient either. What's your point?

No animals beyond humans are sentient. My point is that you've made a
comparison between the treatment a steer receives in a slaughterhouse and
that of a harp seal pup dying slowing from being clubbed and skinned. One
is a quick and relatively painless way to die; the other is an
excruciatingly painful, lingering death. I'm not concerned with the
psychological impact upon the animal of either.

therefore don't really give a rat's posterior as to what
conditions they live in, nor for the congestion or crowding.

I'm sure that's a comforting belief for you, Max, but I firmly
disagree, and I've *worked* on feedlots. Steers most certainly do
suffer health problems from being crowded into small pens, having to
jostle to feed out of troughs instead of graze, having to play
dominance games to get adequate shade/shelter, etc etc. You'll never be
able to prove whether they care or not as the beasts can't talk, but
it's most certainly possible to prove the ill effects on health from
the intensive rearing practises.

Animals don't have to "talk" to express distress and fear. With your
background that should be all too apparent to you. And I fully agree that
an animal will suffer physically if ill or abused. I'm no fan of feed lots.
But no one clubs them and skins them alive at the end, do they?

And what about intensive rearing of pigs? If you're going to tell me
that pigs don't know about and suffer under the conditions we subject
them to, I'm going to laugh in your face. Pigs are smart & playful if
allowed to be.

Are you actually attempting to justify the horrific harp seal slaughter by
telling me how swine suffer in pig farms?

But animals
can suffer pain and a lingering death. There are huge differences
between
the way livestock is raised and slaughtered and the harp seal harvest.


As I said in the first place, there's a lot smaller difference than you
want to think, when it comes to comparing factory livestock rearing. I
understand why you want to hold onto your beliefs, but you're
convincing nobody, least of all me.

Then you and I will have to agree to disagree. But you still have failed to
justify the methods used in harvesting harp seal pups for their fur.


I'm done with this. Get back to me after you've worked in a feedlot,
intensive piggery or similar and then we'll see if your opinion is
still the same. As for the seal harvest, I already said that anyone who
doesn't make sure the animal is dead before skinning it is a barbarian
and a criminal IMO.

On that we agree. But it is still done annually. I've seen three
disgustingly detailed films of harp seal harvests. The last one was after
the Finns claimed to have altered their methods of clubbing and skinning to
comply with new, humane methodology. And the pups still bayed pitifully for
almost an hour after being skinned. I was grateful for Greenpeace's action
as a watchdog on this issue, because assurances of compliance by the hunters
were bogus. Whether anything has been accomplished in enforcing compliance
is anyone's guess, but my guess is that it has not.

Max

"Maxprop" wrote in message
link.net..
..

On that we agree. But it is still done annually. I've
seen three
disgustingly detailed films of harp seal harvests. The
last one was after
the Finns claimed to have altered their methods of
clubbing and skinning to
comply with new, humane methodology. And the pups still
bayed pitifully for
almost an hour after being skinned. I was grateful for
Greenpeace's action
as a watchdog on this issue, because assurances of
compliance by the hunters
were bogus. Whether anything has been accomplished in
enforcing compliance
is anyone's guess, but my guess is that it has not.


Why don't they kill the pups before skinning them?

SBV

"Scotty" wrote in message

Why don't they kill the pups before skinning them?

Cuts down on the workload... they wriggle out of their own skins if they're
just stunned. Then again at -40c they probably can't feel a thing and only
cry for hours because they got scared... right before they freeze to death.
Everyone knows that freezing to death is a much more humane way to die... so
in effect the seal clubbers are doing those white coats a favour. See the
thanks they get.... urban tree huggers like Max whining PETA slogans like
they're goin' out of style!

CM

"Scotty" wrote in message
...
"Maxprop" wrote in message
link.net..
.

On that we agree. But it is still done annually. I've
seen three
disgustingly detailed films of harp seal harvests. The
last one was after
the Finns claimed to have altered their methods of
clubbing and skinning to
comply with new, humane methodology. And the pups still
bayed pitifully for
almost an hour after being skinned. I was grateful for
Greenpeace's action
as a watchdog on this issue, because assurances of
compliance by the hunters
were bogus. Whether anything has been accomplished in
enforcing compliance
is anyone's guess, but my guess is that it has not.


Why don't they kill the pups before skinning them?

That's an excellent question, to which the seal hunters have not offered an
answer. It seems that as long as the pup is stunned from a blow to the
head, the skinning begins. When the pup recovers from being clubbed, it
suffers horribly while bleeding out. Some die from the clubbing, but many
don't.

Max

"Maxprop" wrote in message

That's an excellent question, to which the seal hunters have not offered
an answer. It seems that as long as the pup is stunned from a blow to the
head, the skinning begins. When the pup recovers from being clubbed, it
suffers horribly while bleeding out. Some die from the clubbing, but many
don't.

....and Max knows this since he's been right out there on the ice...taking
pictures! Yup he saw the videos as well. You know.. the videos taken in 1973
when they banned white coat killing and since then have only taken
adolescents by clubbing them the required 3 times with a weighted 35 lb club
that has been proven to crush their skull. Never mind the fact that if such
a club was used on Max... he wouldn't be conscious nor alive long enough to
endure the required 20 min wait prior to skinning mandated since 1973.

Yup.. you just can't get better than 2nd hand tear jerk info from someone
who thinks "Trophy Hunting" is a sport and heart shots avoid spoiling the
mount....

Yup.... next thing you know Max will become the Masked Seal Avenger...
prowling the ice with his mighty katana... slicing the heads off of
Newfoundlanders trying to put food on the table for their family since the
same people who bitch so loudly about the seal hunt have had no problems
with fishing the Cod to the brink of extinction... with nary a complaint
from Max... since Cod don't look that cute and Bridgette Bardot never made
an appeal against it... and Paul McCartney never voiced objection to the
raping of our fishing grounds... since they both gorge themselves on fish...
like the seals they want to protect

Hoooooooo Bouy!!!

CM

"Capt.Mooron" wrote in message
news:_M0Wf.15161$K11.11263@clgrps12...

"Maxprop" wrote in message

That's an excellent question, to which the seal hunters have not offered
an answer. It seems that as long as the pup is stunned from a blow to
the head, the skinning begins. When the pup recovers from being clubbed,
it suffers horribly while bleeding out. Some die from the clubbing, but
many don't.

...and Max knows this since he's been right out there on the ice...taking
pictures! Yup he saw the videos as well. You know.. the videos taken in
1973 when they banned white coat killing and since then have only taken
adolescents by clubbing them the required 3 times with a weighted 35 lb
club that has been proven to crush their skull. Never mind the fact that
if such a club was used on Max... he wouldn't be conscious nor alive long
enough to endure the required 20 min wait prior to skinning mandated since
1973.

You're really pretty good at making this stuff up, aren't ya, Mooron. Like
the hunters would obey such rules, even if they actually existed.

Yup.. you just can't get better than 2nd hand tear jerk info from someone
who thinks "Trophy Hunting" is a sport and heart shots avoid spoiling the
mount....

Spoken like one who hasn't the slightest idea which end of the gun to place
against his shoulder. Figures.

Yup.... next thing you know Max will become the Masked Seal Avenger...
prowling the ice with his mighty katana... slicing the heads off of
Newfoundlanders trying to put food on the table for their family since the
same people who bitch so loudly about the seal hunt have had no problems
with fishing the Cod to the brink of extinction... with nary a complaint
from Max... since Cod don't look that cute and Bridgette Bardot never made
an appeal against it... and Paul McCartney never voiced objection to the
raping of our fishing grounds... since they both gorge themselves on
fish... like the seals they want to protect

The only raping going on near "your" fishing grounds is some cannuck
fishermen having their way with you when you make the poignant mistake of
strolling onto their dock at quitting time. Squeal like a pig, old boy.

Max

"Capt.Mooron" wrote ...
...and Max knows this since he's been right out there on
the ice...taking
pictures! Yup he saw the videos as well. You know.. the
videos taken in 1973
when they banned white coat killing and since then have
only taken
adolescents by clubbing them the required 3 times with a
weighted 35 lb club
that has been proven to crush their skull. Never mind the
fact that if such
a club was used on Max... he wouldn't be conscious nor
alive long enough to
endure the required 20 min wait prior to skinning mandated
since 1973.


Couldn't they use machetes and cut their heads off, or would
that damage the skin?

SV