In article . com, Joe
wrote:

because option 3 may involve child slave labor in China and latino
sweat shops in S. America that pay labor 35 cents a day, and have no
rules and regulations that protect workers and the enviroment.

True, but now you're dealing with the cheap end of the market. The
really good stuff rarely - I hesitate to say never - comes from those
places. More likely Europe with at least as high oncosts as the USA.

As for China, I think you're *badly* underestimating the sophistication
of their manufacturing plant. Sure labour is still cheap, but they're
importing their raw materials and paying world prices for them. Their
energy costs are pretty close to international, certainly WRT oil. They
take those materials, put them through a magic process called a
'factory' and goods people want to buy emerge from the other end.

As for labour pay rates, I heard this back in the 70's and 80's about
Japan. Guess what Japan's pay scales are like these days? Compare
Toyota's car manufacturing quality and volume with GM or Ford. Why is
Toyota so successful these days, despite having a lot worse energy
budget and raw materials situation? The unpalatable answer, for you
guys, is that they can make better cars, cheaper.

China is doing the same thing.

How are we suppose to compete with that?

Umm, Joe, it's called 'investment of capital'. You don't try to compete
on a labourer for labourer basis because you're going to lose, either
economically or standard of living. You leverage your brains and
technology and automate production. That's the *only* way you're gonna
build better, cheaper.

Now we have a billion people in India going after the white collar
design jobs. How can corporate America resist a degreed engineer at
1/16th of the cost who can do the same job via the internet?

Shrug. Those guys in India are going after jobs in my areas of
expertise. I don't care, why should you? Fact is, it'll free up
resources to be used in other areas. Those areas may not be in the USA,
and they may not do your economy any good, but so sad, too bad, those
Indians need to spend money on something. Might be good for us.

And I'm all for fair trade, but if it's not dollar for dollar with the
trader then we need to fix the in-balance.

Riiiiight. Tell me how you're going to insist that China and India buy
overpriced American manufactures, then. Even software development is
going to India and anyone with half a brain would at least be looking
at Microsoft losing its near monopoly on operating systems and the
leverage it gives them to sell MS Office etc.

About the only stuff foreigners might be willing to buy are your
sophisticated military gear, at typical military prices. However,
Europe makes good stuff too, and there's a real strategic problem
selling huge and state of the art arms to potential enemies.

A real good start might be by fixing your own massive debt problem. The
fact is, you guys can't run a closed economy, it isn't an option for
you in the 21C. Therefore you can't run a real protectionist regime and
keep imports out, because if you do, so will other people do it to you,
and with the growth of China and India, I can't think offhand of
anything the USA actually makes that can't be sourced elsewhere quite
easily. You have little international economic leverage and what you
have, you're losing.

I'd care a lot more about your problems if they weren't almost 100% of
your own making. Every time I hear someone talking about fair trade, I
know I'm hearing someone who can't compete.

Barring a real and sustained environmental crash, China and India *are*
going to industrialise and their population's std of living *is* going
to rise. That means they'll have disposable income over what's needed
for subsistence. You can see this as a threat, as you do, or an
opportunity, as I do, but it's gonna happen. I really don't care if you
guys want to sit it out, but we're not going to.

BTW I use a premium priced computer from Apple Corp. Got nothing to do
with price, it's got the best o/s currently available, runs the s/ware
I need to use, is highly reliable as well as pretty, and is well made.
I used to despise Apple Corp because they had a POS of an o/s with a
nice GUI layered over it.

Why don't I use a made in China (or Malaysia etc etc) clone running
Linux or Windows? Got nothing to do with the price.....

PDW

On China........... today Jones introduces bill to raise tariff on
Chinese-made cars

(Sun Journal (New Bern, NC)(KRT) Via Thomson Dialog NewsEdge) Mar.
3--The Chinese government slapped a 28 percent tariff on American-made
cars, but the U.S tariff on Chinese-made cars is only 2.5 percent.

The disparity in the tariff prompted Rep. Walter B. Jones, R-3rd
District, to introduce a bill in Congress Wednesday aimed at leveling
the playing field for domestic auto manufacturers.

The bill, co-sponsored by Rep. Dale Kildee, D-Mich., would prevent
imports of passenger cars from China until U.S. and Chinese tariffs are
equal.

"China has enough trade advantages already," Jones said Thursday in a
press release that cited examples including currency manipulation,
intellectual property rights violations, heavy government subsidies,
and lower worker pay and environmental standards.



"The tariff disparity just gives China another unfair advantage -- an
advantage that threatens the job of every worker in the U.S. auto
industry," he said.

Two Chinese manufacturers -- Chery and Geely -- have announced plans to
begin exporting low-priced, Chinese-made cars to the United States as
soon as next year with plans to eventually sell 250,000 cars annually
in this country.

Geely reportedly plans to enter the U.S. market by 2008, and
anticipates sales of 100,000 by 2012, and other manufacturers already
exporting vehicles from China to Europe and elsewhere may also soon
export Chinese-made vehicles to America.

"U.S. auto workers deserve nothing less than the opportunity to compete
on a level playing field," Jones said. "This legislation would help
give U.S. auto workers a fighting chance."

The legislation does not require U.S. tariffs on passenger cars be
raised or Chinese tariffs be lowered, rather it states that until
tariff rates are equal, no Chinese-made cars may be imported into
America.

Thats just a little step forward. Lookout we are mad as hell and were
not going to take it anymore!

Joe

If Government really wanted to level the playing field they would reduce
taxes and regulations here in the US.

The current logic used is the same as cutting off everyone's left foot so
the handicapped won't be at a disadvantage.

Amen!



"Joe" wrote in message
oups.com...
On China........... today Jones introduces bill to raise tariff on
Chinese-made cars

(Sun Journal (New Bern, NC)(KRT) Via Thomson Dialog NewsEdge) Mar.
3--The Chinese government slapped a 28 percent tariff on American-made
cars, but the U.S tariff on Chinese-made cars is only 2.5 percent.

The disparity in the tariff prompted Rep. Walter B. Jones, R-3rd
District, to introduce a bill in Congress Wednesday aimed at leveling
the playing field for domestic auto manufacturers.

The bill, co-sponsored by Rep. Dale Kildee, D-Mich., would prevent
imports of passenger cars from China until U.S. and Chinese tariffs are
equal.

"China has enough trade advantages already," Jones said Thursday in a
press release that cited examples including currency manipulation,
intellectual property rights violations, heavy government subsidies,
and lower worker pay and environmental standards.



"The tariff disparity just gives China another unfair advantage -- an
advantage that threatens the job of every worker in the U.S. auto
industry," he said.

Two Chinese manufacturers -- Chery and Geely -- have announced plans to
begin exporting low-priced, Chinese-made cars to the United States as
soon as next year with plans to eventually sell 250,000 cars annually
in this country.

Geely reportedly plans to enter the U.S. market by 2008, and
anticipates sales of 100,000 by 2012, and other manufacturers already
exporting vehicles from China to Europe and elsewhere may also soon
export Chinese-made vehicles to America.

"U.S. auto workers deserve nothing less than the opportunity to compete
on a level playing field," Jones said. "This legislation would help
give U.S. auto workers a fighting chance."

The legislation does not require U.S. tariffs on passenger cars be
raised or Chinese tariffs be lowered, rather it states that until
tariff rates are equal, no Chinese-made cars may be imported into
America.

Thats just a little step forward. Lookout we are mad as hell and were
not going to take it anymore!

Joe

I think that's completely stupid at this point.

Lowering taxes and decreasing regs at this point will serve no purpose
except ruining what's left of the environment and increasing the wealth of
the already obscenely wealthy. Many valuable and effective programs have
been cut, all in the name of the war in Iraq. It would be far smarter to
figure out a better way to deal with that problem. Of course, that idiot and
his buddies in the White House don't have a clue. Bush should be impeached
for his fiscal irresponsibility alone.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Bob Crantz" wrote in message
ink.net...
If Government really wanted to level the playing field they would reduce
taxes and regulations here in the US.

The current logic used is the same as cutting off everyone's left foot so
the handicapped won't be at a disadvantage.

Amen!



"Joe" wrote in message
oups.com...
On China........... today Jones introduces bill to raise tariff on
Chinese-made cars

(Sun Journal (New Bern, NC)(KRT) Via Thomson Dialog NewsEdge) Mar.
3--The Chinese government slapped a 28 percent tariff on American-made
cars, but the U.S tariff on Chinese-made cars is only 2.5 percent.

The disparity in the tariff prompted Rep. Walter B. Jones, R-3rd
District, to introduce a bill in Congress Wednesday aimed at leveling
the playing field for domestic auto manufacturers.

The bill, co-sponsored by Rep. Dale Kildee, D-Mich., would prevent
imports of passenger cars from China until U.S. and Chinese tariffs are
equal.

"China has enough trade advantages already," Jones said Thursday in a
press release that cited examples including currency manipulation,
intellectual property rights violations, heavy government subsidies,
and lower worker pay and environmental standards.



"The tariff disparity just gives China another unfair advantage -- an
advantage that threatens the job of every worker in the U.S. auto
industry," he said.

Two Chinese manufacturers -- Chery and Geely -- have announced plans to
begin exporting low-priced, Chinese-made cars to the United States as
soon as next year with plans to eventually sell 250,000 cars annually
in this country.

Geely reportedly plans to enter the U.S. market by 2008, and
anticipates sales of 100,000 by 2012, and other manufacturers already
exporting vehicles from China to Europe and elsewhere may also soon
export Chinese-made vehicles to America.

"U.S. auto workers deserve nothing less than the opportunity to compete
on a level playing field," Jones said. "This legislation would help
give U.S. auto workers a fighting chance."

The legislation does not require U.S. tariffs on passenger cars be
raised or Chinese tariffs be lowered, rather it states that until
tariff rates are equal, no Chinese-made cars may be imported into
America.

Thats just a little step forward. Lookout we are mad as hell and were
not going to take it anymore!

Joe

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...


I think that's completely stupid at this point.

Only if you want to become less competitive in the world marketplace.



Lowering taxes and decreasing regs at this point will serve no purpose
except ruining what's left of the environment and increasing the wealth of
the already obscenely wealthy.

There's plenty left of the environment. China is the world's largest
polluter.



Many valuable and effective programs have been cut, all in the name of the
war in Iraq.

A good number of the government programs are unconstitutional, perhaps even
the war in Iraq.


It would be far smarter to figure out a better way to deal with that
problem.

It always is.


Of course, that idiot and his buddies in the White House don't have a clue.

I think they have a clue and are quite smart. They are doing a great job of
looking out for their best interests.


Bush should be impeached for his fiscal irresponsibility alone.

I prefer public hangings myself.



--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Bob Crantz" wrote in message
ink.net...
If Government really wanted to level the playing field they would reduce
taxes and regulations here in the US.

The current logic used is the same as cutting off everyone's left foot so
the handicapped won't be at a disadvantage.

Amen!



"Joe" wrote in message
oups.com...
On China........... today Jones introduces bill to raise tariff on
Chinese-made cars

(Sun Journal (New Bern, NC)(KRT) Via Thomson Dialog NewsEdge) Mar.
3--The Chinese government slapped a 28 percent tariff on American-made
cars, but the U.S tariff on Chinese-made cars is only 2.5 percent.

The disparity in the tariff prompted Rep. Walter B. Jones, R-3rd
District, to introduce a bill in Congress Wednesday aimed at leveling
the playing field for domestic auto manufacturers.

The bill, co-sponsored by Rep. Dale Kildee, D-Mich., would prevent
imports of passenger cars from China until U.S. and Chinese tariffs are
equal.

"China has enough trade advantages already," Jones said Thursday in a
press release that cited examples including currency manipulation,
intellectual property rights violations, heavy government subsidies,
and lower worker pay and environmental standards.



"The tariff disparity just gives China another unfair advantage -- an
advantage that threatens the job of every worker in the U.S. auto
industry," he said.

Two Chinese manufacturers -- Chery and Geely -- have announced plans to
begin exporting low-priced, Chinese-made cars to the United States as
soon as next year with plans to eventually sell 250,000 cars annually
in this country.

Geely reportedly plans to enter the U.S. market by 2008, and
anticipates sales of 100,000 by 2012, and other manufacturers already
exporting vehicles from China to Europe and elsewhere may also soon
export Chinese-made vehicles to America.

"U.S. auto workers deserve nothing less than the opportunity to compete
on a level playing field," Jones said. "This legislation would help
give U.S. auto workers a fighting chance."

The legislation does not require U.S. tariffs on passenger cars be
raised or Chinese tariffs be lowered, rather it states that until
tariff rates are equal, no Chinese-made cars may be imported into
America.

Thats just a little step forward. Lookout we are mad as hell and were
not going to take it anymore!

Joe

"Bob Crantz" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...


I think that's completely stupid at this point.

Only if you want to become less competitive in the world marketplace.

Huh? This makes no sense.

Lowering taxes and decreasing regs at this point will serve no purpose
except ruining what's left of the environment and increasing the wealth
of the already obscenely wealthy.

There's plenty left of the environment. China is the world's largest
polluter.

Again, this makes no sense. Just because another country has a bad record
does not mean we can just igore the situation.

Many valuable and effective programs have been cut, all in the name of the
war in Iraq.

A good number of the government programs are unconstitutional, perhaps
even the war in Iraq.

Who says? You?

Of course, that idiot and his buddies in the White House don't have a
clue.

I think they have a clue and are quite smart. They are doing a great job
of looking out for their best interests.

Not with poll number of 34%. Even their right wingnut buddies in Congress
are running for cover.

In article , Capt. JG
wrote:

I think that's completely stupid at this point.

Lowering taxes and decreasing regs at this point will serve no purpose
except ruining what's left of the environment

How? why?

and increasing the wealth of
the already obscenely wealthy.

Riiiight. I hear this all the time from the local left wing whackos
too. They'd rather have high theoretical tax rates on the 1% of rich
people, all of whom employ accountants to get out of paying it, than
give up their politics of envy and stop attempting futile confiscatory
tax rates. All that ends up happening is the salaried middle class gets
hit with the high tax rates, not the rich - unless you define 'rich' as
anyone earning more than you do.

Many valuable and effective programs have
been cut, all in the name of the war in Iraq. It would be far smarter to
figure out a better way to deal with that problem.

Yep. However California is a wonderful example of how not to go about
it, from where I sit. Energy in particular, you guys have some of the
most spectacular screwups around. You want your cake - abundant energy
- but you want someone else to pick up the environmental cost. There's
a word for that, starts with h........

Of course, that idiot and
his buddies in the White House don't have a clue. Bush should be impeached
for his fiscal irresponsibility alone.

Always easy to blame someone else. Even when true, as in this case, it
doesn't actually address the problems, Jon. Might make you feel better,
but it doesn't address the problems. Repeat as needed.

Now, do you want to feel better because you have someone to blame, or
do you want to attempt to deal with the issues?

PDW

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article , Capt. JG
wrote:

I think that's completely stupid at this point.

Lowering taxes and decreasing regs at this point will serve no purpose
except ruining what's left of the environment

How? why?

For example, fewer dollars for environmental cleanup, prevention, etc.

and increasing the wealth of
the already obscenely wealthy.

Riiiight. I hear this all the time from the local left wing whackos
too. They'd rather have high theoretical tax rates on the 1% of rich
people, all of whom employ accountants to get out of paying it, than
give up their politics of envy and stop attempting futile confiscatory
tax rates. All that ends up happening is the salaried middle class gets
hit with the high tax rates, not the rich - unless you define 'rich' as
anyone earning more than you do.

Huh? Are you saying that the middle and lower classes should be taxed at a
higher rate then the richies?

You need to stop ranting against liberals and start thinking.

Many valuable and effective programs have
been cut, all in the name of the war in Iraq. It would be far smarter to
figure out a better way to deal with that problem.

Yep. However California is a wonderful example of how not to go about
it, from where I sit. Energy in particular, you guys have some of the
most spectacular screwups around. You want your cake - abundant energy
- but you want someone else to pick up the environmental cost. There's
a word for that, starts with h........

Never claimed Cal was. What's your point? I have a very nice solar panel
system that insulates us from huge electic costs now and in the future.

Of course, that idiot and
his buddies in the White House don't have a clue. Bush should be
impeached
for his fiscal irresponsibility alone.

Always easy to blame someone else. Even when true, as in this case, it
doesn't actually address the problems, Jon. Might make you feel better,
but it doesn't address the problems. Repeat as needed.

Bushco is totally to blame for the current fiscal nightmare. Getting rid of
him and his bunk buddies would be a good first step. In fact, it's one of
the first essential steps.

Now, do you want to feel better because you have someone to blame, or
do you want to attempt to deal with the issues?

See previous. Impeach Bush, get us back on fiscally responsible behavior.

Bob Crantz wrote:
If Government really wanted to level the playing field they would reduce
taxes and regulations here in the US.

The current logic used is the same as cutting off everyone's left foot so
the handicapped won't be at a disadvantage.

Amen!



"Joe" wrote in message
oups.com...
On China........... today Jones introduces bill to raise tariff on
Chinese-made cars

(Sun Journal (New Bern, NC)(KRT) Via Thomson Dialog NewsEdge) Mar.
3--The Chinese government slapped a 28 percent tariff on American-made
cars, but the U.S tariff on Chinese-made cars is only 2.5 percent.

The disparity in the tariff prompted Rep. Walter B. Jones, R-3rd
District, to introduce a bill in Congress Wednesday aimed at leveling
the playing field for domestic auto manufacturers.

The bill, co-sponsored by Rep. Dale Kildee, D-Mich., would prevent
imports of passenger cars from China until U.S. and Chinese tariffs are
equal.

"China has enough trade advantages already," Jones said Thursday in a
press release that cited examples including currency manipulation,
intellectual property rights violations, heavy government subsidies,
and lower worker pay and environmental standards.



"The tariff disparity just gives China another unfair advantage -- an
advantage that threatens the job of every worker in the U.S. auto
industry," he said.

Two Chinese manufacturers -- Chery and Geely -- have announced plans to
begin exporting low-priced, Chinese-made cars to the United States as
soon as next year with plans to eventually sell 250,000 cars annually
in this country.

Geely reportedly plans to enter the U.S. market by 2008, and
anticipates sales of 100,000 by 2012, and other manufacturers already
exporting vehicles from China to Europe and elsewhere may also soon
export Chinese-made vehicles to America.

"U.S. auto workers deserve nothing less than the opportunity to compete
on a level playing field," Jones said. "This legislation would help
give U.S. auto workers a fighting chance."

The legislation does not require U.S. tariffs on passenger cars be
raised or Chinese tariffs be lowered, rather it states that until
tariff rates are equal, no Chinese-made cars may be imported into
America.

Thats just a little step forward. Lookout we are mad as hell and were
not going to take it anymore!

Joe



That's how we run our educational system....

"katy" wrote in message
...
:

The current logic used is the same as cutting off everyone's left foot so
the handicapped won't be at a disadvantage.




That's how we run our educational system....


Get the federal government and labor unions out of public education.