Lessons of a tragedy....Roller furlers suck
 

Lessons From a Tragedy
Monday, February 27, 2006 - Bangor Daily News

It was a boat accident that shouldn't have happened - for several
reasons. Here's how things went wrong, as pieced together by the Coast
Guard in a final report issued recently:

A 55-year-old Stratham, N.H., man and his son, 20, started out from
Rockland last Oct. 15, a Saturday, on their 41-foot sailboat, Naobi,
for Rye, N.H., to have the boat hauled for the winter.

The forecast was for bad weather. They had trouble starting the engine
on their dinghy, and their diesel engine sputtered and died, but they
went ahead under sail. They had lifejackets and safety harnesses
onboard but never put them on. Safety flares were onboard but weren't
used.

By nightfall, it was raining hard, the wind was gusting at perhaps 30
knots and they were being buffeted by nearly 5-foot seas. The son, new
to the boat, slept below and occasionally spelled his father at the
helm.

At about 9:30 p.m., with the weather worsening, the father summoned the
son on deck to help furl the sails. The father crawled out on the
bowsprit to try to fix the jammed furling mechanism on the jib sail
while the son tried to keep the boat headed into the wind.

It broached broadside to the wind and waves, took a lurch, and the stay
sail boom knocked the father overboard. He managed to grab the end of a
line, and the son tried to haul his father aboard, but the father lost
his grip and disappeared in the murk.

The son tried unsuccessfully to start the engine. He tried to use the
boat's shortwave radio but didn't know whether it was working. He tried
to call for help on his father's cell phone but could raise no one.

His mother became alarmed when she couldn't reach them by cell phone.
She called the Coast Guard on Monday, Oct. 17, and a search began
immediately of the long stretch of ocean between Rockland and Rye. On
the fourth day, a patrol plane finally spotted the battered sailboat
and radioed a nearby lobster boat for help. The crew found the son
still aboard and got him onto the lobster boat. The sailboat was towed
into Rockland harbor and examined by the Coast Guard.

The inspecting officer, Lt. Cdr. Michael Lindaitis, had these
recommendations for all sailors:

File a "float plan" with family or friends, giving the intended route
and time of arrival.

Make sure all necessary equipment is in order and all necessary safety
gear is aboard.

Make sure that crew members understand how to handle the boat and use
the safety gear.

Finally, if a boat is overdue, call the Coast Guard immediately.

Commercial boats and their captains are licensed, and crews may get
dockside safety training and inspection by the Coast Guard.

Maine has no similar requirements for recreational boating, but Cdr.
Lindaitis strongly recommends that pleasure sailors arrange with the
Coast Guard Auxiliary for training and inspection.

Adequate gear and training, prudent preparation and a float plan can
save lives and prevent tragedy.

Lessons of a tragedy....Roller furlers suck--no they don't
 

The five P's: Prior Planning Prevents Poor Performance.

Having an engine that works is a good idea.
Having extra crew is a good idea.
Wearing a lifejacket is a good idea.
Having a reliable means of communication is a good idea.
Making sure your equipement works is a good idea.

The bottom line is treat your boat like an airplane. Everything
should work, or you should be heading back to the dock if
you can't make repairs safely.

Roller furling is a great idea. This fellow should have struck
the jib instead of trying to furl it when they were overpowered.
Or he could have reefed the main prior to trying to fix the furling line.

The guy was a poor skipper and died because of his lack of
skill and intelligence.

Lessons of a tragedy....Roller furlers suck
 

"Nothing or little to do" yeah right. If he did not have to go out on
the bow in the first place he would not have been knocked overboard.

I never said it was the reason he died, I just said roller furlers
suck.

Seems they always fail in situations like this. Why chance a stuck
sail?

Hank on's rule. Tried and true, will not dis-appoint you in your moment
of need.

Joe

Lessons of a tragedy....Roller furlers suck
 

Joe,

One HUGE question with your story?

If the Father was on the Bowsprit working on a Jammed Furler; just how
in the Hell was he knocked overboard by the staysail boom?



http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage

http://community.webtv.net/tassail/Pneuma

Lessons of a tragedy....Roller furlers suck
 

Joe wrote:
"Nothing or little to do" yeah right. If he did not have to go out on
the bow in the first place he would not have been knocked overboard.

I never said it was the reason he died, I just said roller furlers
suck.

Seems they always fail in situations like this. Why chance a stuck
sail?

Hank on's rule. Tried and true, will not dis-appoint you in your moment
of need.

Joe

You're nuts, Joe. You have to go out on the deck with hank
ons....how do you do sail changes??? Or Llike I said, unscramble
problems that also arise with jank ons? Sometimes I wonder if you
ever really sail at all or if you just motor that thing around.

Lessons of a tragedy....Roller furlers suck
 

Don't know Thom, but if he was flying the proper head sail, he would
not have needed to fight a sail on the bow in bad weather.

A nice hanked on 25% to 50 % jib would have worked nicely IMO.

I don't know about you , but I hate fighting an out of control jib in
bad conditions.

Joe

Lessons of a tragedy....Roller furlers suck
 

I learned early to reef and swap head sails before the front or bad
weather hits. It's not that hard Katy.

True...RedCloud has the to ability to power out of trouble, but that
has nothing to do with roll up failures, and Ive seen so many roll up's
shreaded it isn't funny.

Next thing your going to try to tell me in-mast rollers systems are
great.

Bwahahahahahahahaaaa.

Joe

Lessons of a tragedy....Roller furlers suck
 

Joe wrote:
I learned early to reef and swap head sails before the front or bad
weather hits. It's not that hard Katy.

True...RedCloud has the to ability to power out of trouble, but that
has nothing to do with roll up failures, and Ive seen so many roll up's
shreaded it isn't funny.

Next thing your going to try to tell me in-mast rollers systems are
great.

Bwahahahahahahahaaaa.

Joe

Nope...I don't think they're great except for people that would
never venture out into anything but fair akies and fair seas...and
we sailed for years without a furler, so I do know what I'm talking
about. The erros in that story ahd nothing to do with furling and
everything to do with inept sailong...and yes, we reef
early...sometimes we reeft right at the dock or mooring, preferring
a controlled situation rather than getting out there and having
everything flying all over...it's always much easier to shake iot
all out if uneeded than to reef in under poor conditions...

Lessons of a tragedy....Roller furlers suck
 

Having a hanked on a 25% on that did not need reefing in high winds.

Joe

Lessons of a tragedy....Roller furlers suck
 

Hank on sails work fine, except that you are required to go forward to deal
with it (unless you have a downhaul). Furlers work fine, but have the
possibiilty that you may have to go forward to deal with it. Going forward
in bad conditions is something to be avoided if possible.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Joe" wrote in message
oups.com...
"Nothing or little to do" yeah right. If he did not have to go out on
the bow in the first place he would not have been knocked overboard.

I never said it was the reason he died, I just said roller furlers
suck.

Seems they always fail in situations like this. Why chance a stuck
sail?

Hank on's rule. Tried and true, will not dis-appoint you in your moment
of need.

Joe

Lessons of a tragedy....Roller furlers suck
 

This would have required planning that he was obviously incapable of doing.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Joe" wrote in message
ups.com...
Having a hanked on a 25% on that did not need reefing in high winds.

Joe

Lessons of a tragedy....Roller furlers suck
 

Joe wrote:
"Nothing or little to do" yeah right. If he did not have to go out on
the bow in the first place he would not have been knocked overboard.


How do you propose that he reduce sail out on the end of a
bowsprit, in the absence of a working roller furler?

Quite frankly, you're just being a belligerent dumb-ass here.

People have sailed around the world, literally battling Cape
Horn gales, with roller furlers. Those big steel "Wrong Way
Around" sloops have roller furlers.... of course, *those*
roller furlers get proper maintenance, while it would seem
that the boat in your story had maintnance issues with
everything. The roller furler was just one more thing on the
list.


I never said it was the reason he died, I just said roller furlers
suck.


Roller furlers suck if you're too stupid or lazy to make
sure they work properly.

Some people should not be allowed to operate any equipment
more complex than a shovel.


Seems they always fail in situations like this.

Wrong. They rarely fail in situations like this.



Hank on's rule. Tried and true, will not dis-appoint you in your moment
of need.


Why do you think a flogging, half-doused hank-on sail out at
the end of a bowsprit would be better than a roller furled one?

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Lessons of a tragedy....Roller furlers suck
 

I have had only one a roller furl fail. That was in horrific
winds. I was able to lower the sail without any trouble.

I can't count the number of times I've counted my blessings
as my jib easy furled and got rid of my problem in seconds.

"Joe" wrote

"Nothing or little to do" yeah right. If he did not have to go out on
the bow in the first place he would not have been knocked overboard.

I never said it was the reason he died, I just said roller furlers
suck.

Seems they always fail in situations like this. Why chance a stuck
sail?

Hank on's rule. Tried and true, will not dis-appoint you in your moment
of need.

Joe

Lessons of a tragedy....Roller furlers suck
 

Good question Thom. What was he doing on the
leeward side of the boat? Foolish place to be, unless
his son tacked the boat somehow. What the heck was
the staysail doing up if he was over-powered and couldn't
get the jib down????

My guess is he was going to the mast to ease the jib halyard
to lower the jib or else to reef the main.

More than likely he was over canvassed with a Genoa
in the first place.

Chances are high, he was trying to furl a big headsail when
sailing into the wind.

I'd be willing to bet, that if he had turned downwind he
could have furled the sail, or at least got it down and stowed
below easier. That means sailing away from your goal, but if
done smartly, only a little distance is lost.

I see many foolish sailors sailing when they feel they have
to hurry, to get a boat hauled. Late in the season the
winds are stronger, colder, and more dangerous.

"Thom Stewart" wrote

One HUGE question with your story?

If the Father was on the Bowsprit working on a Jammed Furler; just how
in the Hell was he knocked overboard by the staysail boom?

Lessons of a tragedy....Roller furlers suck
 

Joe wrote:
Having a hanked on a 25% on that did not need reefing in high winds.


And I guess having one of those magic forestays that can
have a sailed hanked onto it from the cockpit would help a
lot, too.

DSK

Lessons of a tragedy....Roller furlers suck
 

Thinking ahead, then relying on near fail proof equipment next.

Yes.... in that order.


Joe

Lessons of a tragedy....Roller furlers suck
 

Bart Senior wrote:
I have had only one a roller furl fail. That was in horrific
winds. I was able to lower the sail without any trouble.


I've never had a roller furler fail.
We were sailing in company with a friend who left his
dockline laying on the foredeck, and the tail of it jammed
the rollerfurler in a T-storm.
All the cases I know of roller furlers "failing"... at
least, after about 1990... was due to either improper
installation or poor maintenance. Now, back in the 1970s and
previous, materials were not avalable to build them strong
enough & with low enough friction. Those old-timey units
were a problem.

Maybe the problem here is that in addition to a lot of
people who shouldn't be trusted with machinery more complex
than a shovel, we have a lot of people whose grasp of
materials engineering includes just two substances... wood &
iron. All else is a mystery, not to be trusted!


I can't count the number of times I've counted my blessings
as my jib easy furled and got rid of my problem in seconds.


It's a really great way to slow the boat down, clear your
field of vision, and free up crew for maneuvering in close
quarters... when docking, say for example. And you don't
have to drag wet sails into the cabin.

But in all fairness, roller furlers certainly have their limits.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Lessons of a tragedy....Roller furlers suck
 

I agree with you on in-mast furlers. I had snag once and it
took a long time to clear it. I had only a few options, try to
furl, or try to un-furl. The thing was mostly furled so changing
halyard tension wouldn't have helped.

Thankfully, I was in a protected harbor at Jost Van Dyke at the
time. I hate to think what I would have had to do to clear it in
strong winds. Perhaps the wind would have helped it. Still I
would rather not have that problem ever again.

In boom furling, at least, gives you the option of dropping the
sail. Not that I am a big fan of this either.

My choice is a Dutchman System, with a good track system
--which gives you all the benefits of sail shaping, as well as easy
hoisting and lowering, and the benefit of keeping the sail where
you want it.

"Joe" wrote

I learned early to reef and swap head sails before the front or bad
weather hits. It's not that hard Katy.

True...RedCloud has the to ability to power out of trouble, but that
has nothing to do with roll up failures, and Ive seen so many roll up's
shreaded it isn't funny.

Next thing your going to try to tell me in-mast rollers systems are
great.

Bwahahahahahahahaaaa.

Joe

Lessons of a tragedy....Roller furlers suck
 

Only this loser probably had 140 on his furler as his
only headsail.

He could have rigged a downhaul for his jib. I've heard
of people doing that, but I've never seen anyone using
such a system.

"Joe" wrote

Having a hanked on a 25% on that did not need reefing in high winds.

Joe

Lessons of a tragedy....Roller furlers suck
 

What kind of limits do roller furlers have Doug?

Joe

Lessons of a tragedy....Roller furlers suck
 

"DSK" wrote

Bart Senior wrote:
I have had only one a roller furl fail. That was in horrific
winds. I was able to lower the sail without any trouble.

I've never had a roller furler fail.
We were sailing in company with a friend who left his dockline laying on
the foredeck, and the tail of it jammed the rollerfurler in a T-storm.
All the cases I know of roller furlers "failing"... at least, after about
1990... was due to either improper installation or poor maintenance. Now,
back in the 1970s and previous, materials were not avalable to build them
strong enough & with low enough friction. Those old-timey units were a
problem.

The boat was a Soling with retro fitting furling. It was a
custom system that caused me a bit of grief. I'd taken it
apart a few times and played with it. Truthfully, it should
have been thrown out.

Lessons of a tragedy....Roller furlers suck
 

Joe wrote:
What kind of limits do roller furlers have Doug?


Perhaps "limits" is the wrong word. Certainly there are
limits to the amount that a roll-up sail can be effectively
reefed, and (all else being equal) a sail on a roller furler
is not as effective as one on a luff foil or hanks.

Roller furlers are a maintenance item, and they prevent
access to the pins, toggles, & turnbuckles on the forestay.
It's possible to mis-install one so that it binds the
forestay or unlays the wire, and breaks the rig.

Roller furled sails need to be properly secured. I
personally like a sleeve, that protects the sail from UV so
that it doesn't need those strips of heavy canvas along
leach & foot. Many people secure with a sail tie at the
clew, which is not as good as a sleeve but better than
nothing (which seems to be what most people do).

A good roller furler is expensive... frankly I think that's
why a lot of "crusty old salt" type sailors dislike them,
that plus their opinion of roller-furling was formed in 1965
and they haven't learned a thing since.

Roller furlers aren't perfect, but if installed & maintained
properly, they are very reliable. That's why so many
round-the-world sailors use them.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Lessons of a tragedy....Roller furlers suck
 

"katy" wrote i
I landed on my rear on a padeye, but it did come
down...the
bruise was very interesting...never seen taht color purple
before.


It looked more 'crimson' in the pic you sent me.

Scotty

Lessons of a tragedy....Roller furlers suck
 

The only bummer about the Dutchman system is that you have to put holes in
your sail.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ...
I agree with you on in-mast furlers. I had snag once and it
took a long time to clear it. I had only a few options, try to
furl, or try to un-furl. The thing was mostly furled so changing
halyard tension wouldn't have helped.

Thankfully, I was in a protected harbor at Jost Van Dyke at the
time. I hate to think what I would have had to do to clear it in
strong winds. Perhaps the wind would have helped it. Still I
would rather not have that problem ever again.

In boom furling, at least, gives you the option of dropping the
sail. Not that I am a big fan of this either.

My choice is a Dutchman System, with a good track system
--which gives you all the benefits of sail shaping, as well as easy
hoisting and lowering, and the benefit of keeping the sail where
you want it.

"Joe" wrote

I learned early to reef and swap head sails before the front or bad
weather hits. It's not that hard Katy.

True...RedCloud has the to ability to power out of trouble, but that
has nothing to do with roll up failures, and Ive seen so many roll up's
shreaded it isn't funny.

Next thing your going to try to tell me in-mast rollers systems are
great.

Bwahahahahahahahaaaa.

Joe

Lessons of a tragedy....Roller furlers suck
 

"Joe" wrote in message
oups.com...
Lessons From a Tragedy
Monday, February 27, 2006 - Bangor Daily News

It was a boat accident that shouldn't have happened - for several
reasons. Here's how things went wrong, as pieced together by the Coast
Guard in a final report issued recently:

A 55-year-old Stratham, N.H., man and his son, 20, started out from
Rockland last Oct. 15, a Saturday, on their 41-foot sailboat, Naobi,
for Rye, N.H., to have the boat hauled for the winter.

The forecast was for bad weather. They had trouble starting the engine
on their dinghy, and their diesel engine sputtered and died, but they
went ahead under sail. They had lifejackets and safety harnesses
onboard but never put them on. Safety flares were onboard but weren't
used.

Adequate gear and training, prudent preparation and a float plan can
save lives and prevent tragedy.

Which are the "lessons" of this tragedy. Everything you need to know about
what went wrong is in the second and third paragraphs of the post.

John Cairns

Lessons of a tragedy....Roller furlers suck
 

Small holes, with reinforcing patches. The monofilament is
pretty thin stuff. It is certainly not something worth complaining
about compared to other systems with bigger hassles.

"Capt. JG" wrote
The only bummer about the Dutchman system is that you have to put holes in
your sail.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote
My choice is a Dutchman System, with a good track system
--which gives you all the benefits of sail shaping, as well as easy
hoisting and lowering, and the benefit of keeping the sail where
you want it.

Lessons of a tragedy....Roller furlers suck
 

Yeah, I do like the system... I guess it's just the idea of having to put
holes in every new main you get. Has to be custom done for each situation
right? Also, what's the effort like if you have to remove the sail from the
boat? I don't like the standard Lazy Jacks that much because they tend to
interfere with the sails going up sometimes. They do make the more
complicated setup that moves the LJs while the sail goes up and down, but
that yet another level of complexity.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ...
Small holes, with reinforcing patches. The monofilament is
pretty thin stuff. It is certainly not something worth complaining
about compared to other systems with bigger hassles.

"Capt. JG" wrote
The only bummer about the Dutchman system is that you have to put holes
in your sail.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote
My choice is a Dutchman System, with a good track system
--which gives you all the benefits of sail shaping, as well as easy
hoisting and lowering, and the benefit of keeping the sail where
you want it.

Lessons of a tragedy....Roller furlers suck
 

"DSK" wrote in message
. ..


Quite frankly, you're just being a belligerent dumb-ass here.

Hi there, Doug. Just thought I'd remind you when you engage in name
calling, since you seem to believe you seldom or never do.

Max

Lessons of a tragedy....Roller furlers suck
 

Quite frankly, you're just being a belligerent dumb-ass here.


Maxprop wrote:
Hi there, Doug. Just thought I'd remind you when you engage in name
calling, since you seem to believe you seldom or never do.


Not at all... did I say I *never* do? Just rarely, and only
when justified.

To blame this accident on the roller furler is just plain
stupid. To use this incident as "proof" that roller furlers
are no good, and insist on that proof loudly, is going a few
step further.... what would you call that?

DSK

Lessons of a tragedy....Roller furlers suck
 

To remove a Dutchman, you lower the sail. It self
flakes. Next you lower the toping lift and disconnect
the topping lift from the wire provided for the Dutchman.
Remove the sail from the boom.

How many mains do you have for a given boat? If you are
racing, you don't need it if you have a big crew. Still I have
seenn some racing boats with Dacron sails using Dutchman's.

It really is a nice system. It works best with newer sails.
Let the sail sit flaked up for a winter and it will fall perfectly
every time.

Combine this with a track system and you can make a nice
coil of main halyard, and simply throw the rope clutch off and
the sail will fall completely down. Rarely will you have to
tug the sail down. I find that if pointed directly into the wind
with this system it falls all the way down as fast as you can
snap your fingers twice.

A Dutchman, with a good track system, and roller furling on
the headsail, means easy sail dousing. The Dutchman also
holds the sail on the boom when the sail ties are removed.
No huge mess of sail falling everywhere.

Without a doubt it is a fabulous system for shorthanded or
solo sailing.

"Capt. JG" wrote
Yeah, I do like the system... I guess it's just the idea of having to put
holes in every new main you get. Has to be custom done for each situation
right? Also, what's the effort like if you have to remove the sail from
the boat? I don't like the standard Lazy Jacks that much because they tend
to interfere with the sails going up sometimes. They do make the more
complicated setup that moves the LJs while the sail goes up and down, but
that yet another level of complexity.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ...
Small holes, with reinforcing patches. The monofilament is
pretty thin stuff. It is certainly not something worth complaining
about compared to other systems with bigger hassles.

"Capt. JG" wrote
The only bummer about the Dutchman system is that you have to put holes
in your sail.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote
My choice is a Dutchman System, with a good track system
--which gives you all the benefits of sail shaping, as well as easy
hoisting and lowering, and the benefit of keeping the sail where
you want it.

Dutchman System
 

This topic deserves it's own thread.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ...
To remove a Dutchman, you lower the sail. It self
flakes. Next you lower the toping lift and disconnect
the topping lift from the wire provided for the Dutchman.
Remove the sail from the boom.

How many mains do you have for a given boat? If you are
racing, you don't need it if you have a big crew. Still I have
seenn some racing boats with Dacron sails using Dutchman's.

It really is a nice system. It works best with newer sails.
Let the sail sit flaked up for a winter and it will fall perfectly
every time.

Combine this with a track system and you can make a nice
coil of main halyard, and simply throw the rope clutch off and
the sail will fall completely down. Rarely will you have to
tug the sail down. I find that if pointed directly into the wind
with this system it falls all the way down as fast as you can
snap your fingers twice.

A Dutchman, with a good track system, and roller furling on
the headsail, means easy sail dousing. The Dutchman also
holds the sail on the boom when the sail ties are removed.
No huge mess of sail falling everywhere.

Without a doubt it is a fabulous system for shorthanded or
solo sailing.

"Capt. JG" wrote
Yeah, I do like the system... I guess it's just the idea of having to put
holes in every new main you get. Has to be custom done for each situation
right? Also, what's the effort like if you have to remove the sail from
the boat? I don't like the standard Lazy Jacks that much because they
tend to interfere with the sails going up sometimes. They do make the
more complicated setup that moves the LJs while the sail goes up and
down, but that yet another level of complexity.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ...
Small holes, with reinforcing patches. The monofilament is
pretty thin stuff. It is certainly not something worth complaining
about compared to other systems with bigger hassles.

"Capt. JG" wrote
The only bummer about the Dutchman system is that you have to put holes
in your sail.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote
My choice is a Dutchman System, with a good track system
--which gives you all the benefits of sail shaping, as well as easy
hoisting and lowering, and the benefit of keeping the sail where
you want it.

Lessons of a tragedy....Roller furlers suck
 

Seems they always fail in situations like this.

Wrong. They rarely fail in situations like this.


Dave wrote:
There's a classic case of ships passing in the night. Joe meant that when
they fail, it's usually in conditions like this. Doug replied that they
usually work, including usually working in conditions like this. Aside from
Doug's word "Wrong," the two statements are, of course, not mutually
exclusive.

If the roller furlers work only a small percent of the time
"in situations like this" then it is wrong to say that they
always fail. In other words, the two statements *are*
mutually exclusive.

When a survey taken of serious long-term passagemakers
includes gear, roller furlers are almost always regarded as
among the most reliable gear on the boat. In fact I recall
seeing a survey of a large group (20) of circumnavigators,
none of whom reported a single roller furler problem.

In other words, there is no reason to assume that roller
furlers suck, unless
1- you have another agenda wholly divorced from reality
2- you assume that the given roller furler is not sized,
installed, or maintained correctly
3- you can't afford a roller furler anyway and are bitter &
spiteful

I think Joe is somewhere between 1 & 2. The Crapton was a
strong 3. Maybe somebody should google up of Jax's
pronouncements on roller furlers, that might be amusing.

DSK

Lessons of a tragedy....Roller furlers suck
 

I agree actually. I used to rent boats from a place that had it on a couple
of their boats. Pop the halyard and you're pretty much done.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ...
To remove a Dutchman, you lower the sail. It self
flakes. Next you lower the toping lift and disconnect
the topping lift from the wire provided for the Dutchman.
Remove the sail from the boom.

How many mains do you have for a given boat? If you are
racing, you don't need it if you have a big crew. Still I have
seenn some racing boats with Dacron sails using Dutchman's.

It really is a nice system. It works best with newer sails.
Let the sail sit flaked up for a winter and it will fall perfectly
every time.

Combine this with a track system and you can make a nice
coil of main halyard, and simply throw the rope clutch off and
the sail will fall completely down. Rarely will you have to
tug the sail down. I find that if pointed directly into the wind
with this system it falls all the way down as fast as you can
snap your fingers twice.

A Dutchman, with a good track system, and roller furling on
the headsail, means easy sail dousing. The Dutchman also
holds the sail on the boom when the sail ties are removed.
No huge mess of sail falling everywhere.

Without a doubt it is a fabulous system for shorthanded or
solo sailing.

"Capt. JG" wrote
Yeah, I do like the system... I guess it's just the idea of having to put
holes in every new main you get. Has to be custom done for each situation
right? Also, what's the effort like if you have to remove the sail from
the boat? I don't like the standard Lazy Jacks that much because they
tend to interfere with the sails going up sometimes. They do make the
more complicated setup that moves the LJs while the sail goes up and
down, but that yet another level of complexity.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ...
Small holes, with reinforcing patches. The monofilament is
pretty thin stuff. It is certainly not something worth complaining
about compared to other systems with bigger hassles.

"Capt. JG" wrote
The only bummer about the Dutchman system is that you have to put holes
in your sail.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote
My choice is a Dutchman System, with a good track system
--which gives you all the benefits of sail shaping, as well as easy
hoisting and lowering, and the benefit of keeping the sail where
you want it.

Dutchman System
 

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ...
This topic deserves it's own thread.

Well, I'll start. I have a generic flaking system called a "Lazy Mate", came
with the boat. What a pos! It does keep the sail on the boom, however.

John Cairns


"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ...
To remove a Dutchman, you lower the sail. It self
flakes. Next you lower the toping lift and disconnect
the topping lift from the wire provided for the Dutchman.
Remove the sail from the boom.

How many mains do you have for a given boat? If you are
racing, you don't need it if you have a big crew. Still I have
seenn some racing boats with Dacron sails using Dutchman's.

It really is a nice system. It works best with newer sails.
Let the sail sit flaked up for a winter and it will fall perfectly
every time.

Combine this with a track system and you can make a nice
coil of main halyard, and simply throw the rope clutch off and
the sail will fall completely down. Rarely will you have to
tug the sail down. I find that if pointed directly into the wind
with this system it falls all the way down as fast as you can
snap your fingers twice.

A Dutchman, with a good track system, and roller furling on
the headsail, means easy sail dousing. The Dutchman also
holds the sail on the boom when the sail ties are removed.
No huge mess of sail falling everywhere.

Without a doubt it is a fabulous system for shorthanded or
solo sailing.

"Capt. JG" wrote
Yeah, I do like the system... I guess it's just the idea of having to
put holes in every new main you get. Has to be custom done for each
situation right? Also, what's the effort like if you have to remove the
sail from the boat? I don't like the standard Lazy Jacks that much
because they tend to interfere with the sails going up sometimes. They
do make the more complicated setup that moves the LJs while the sail
goes up and down, but that yet another level of complexity.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ...
Small holes, with reinforcing patches. The monofilament is
pretty thin stuff. It is certainly not something worth complaining
about compared to other systems with bigger hassles.

"Capt. JG" wrote
The only bummer about the Dutchman system is that you have to put
holes in your sail.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote
My choice is a Dutchman System, with a good track system
--which gives you all the benefits of sail shaping, as well as easy
hoisting and lowering, and the benefit of keeping the sail where
you want it.

Dutchman System
 

affiliation? what, with sailing?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 27 Feb 2006 20:14:01 -0500, "Bart Senior" .@. said:

This topic deserves it's own thread.

Hate to say it, Bart, but in view of your affiliation this repeat of your
earlier message is approaching spam.

I don't disagree about its being a nice system. But one must exercise a
little restraint with his enthusiasm.

Lessons of semantic quibbling
 

... Aside from
Doug's word "Wrong," the two statements are, of course, not mutually
exclusive.

If the roller furlers work only a small percent of the time
"in situations like this" then it is wrong to say that they
always fail. In other words, the two statements *are*
mutually exclusive.


Dave wrote:
If RF works only a small percentage of the time "in situations like this," I
don't think I'd want it regardless of whether or not the literal statement
that it always fails is an overstatement.


I guess the difference between "an overstatement" and
"wrong" is an ideological point, eh?


But Joe's statement is susceptible to two readings. The second reading is
that when RF fails it's always in situations like this.

Which would also be wrong, because sometimes roller furlers
fail in different circumstances.

If you're going to look at cases in the real world, I stand
by my asertion that nearly all (90%) of roller furler
failures are due to buying a cheap one (including one that
is undersized for the load), mis-installation of it, or
improper maintenance... or, of course, a combination of two
or more of the above. IMHO there is no weather or sailing
situation that directly leads to roller furler failure in
any measurable percentage of cases.

In other words, wrong.
Again.



... A slight hyperbole,
perhaps, but hyperbole is a perfectly valid way to make a point.

When the point is wrong to start with? And then hammering
that "slight hyperbole" into the ground?


...Not the
same as saying that in all situations like this RF fails.

Well, that's what Joe said.

In logic terms,
"all A is B" does not imply that "all B is A."


Of course not. Are you implying that I somehow said it was?

DSK

Lessons of a tragedy....Roller furlers suck
 

Thom Stewart wrote:
I'd call that name calling!


Good thing this isn't an election. I just lost another vote!

DSK

Lessons of semantic quibbling
 

Dave wrote:
I happen to like RF, but your last sentence evinces another logical fallacy:

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/posthocf.html

Joe asserts, correctly or not, a correspondence in time between RF failure
and adverse conditions. He does not assert a causal relationship.

Bull****.

That's *exactly* what Joe asserted.

DSK

Lessons of a tragedy....Roller furlers suck
 

If they use Profurl on the Southern Ocean it is good
enough for me. I'm waiting for my new unit to come
in. LC42 model. And I won't have to cut, modify,
or swag the forestay. Also I'll be able to install it with
the forestay attached to the top of the mast.

"DSK" wrote
Seems they always fail in situations like this.

Wrong. They rarely fail in situations like this.


Dave wrote:
There's a classic case of ships passing in the night. Joe meant that when
they fail, it's usually in conditions like this. Doug replied that they
usually work, including usually working in conditions like this. Aside
from
Doug's word "Wrong," the two statements are, of course, not mutually
exclusive.

If the roller furlers work only a small percent of the time "in situations
like this" then it is wrong to say that they always fail. In other words,
the two statements *are* mutually exclusive.

When a survey taken of serious long-term passagemakers includes gear,
roller furlers are almost always regarded as among the most reliable gear
on the boat. In fact I recall seeing a survey of a large group (20) of
circumnavigators, none of whom reported a single roller furler problem.

In other words, there is no reason to assume that roller furlers suck,
unless
1- you have another agenda wholly divorced from reality
2- you assume that the given roller furler is not sized, installed, or
maintained correctly
3- you can't afford a roller furler anyway and are bitter & spiteful

I think Joe is somewhere between 1 & 2. The Crapton was a strong 3. Maybe
somebody should google up of Jax's pronouncements on roller furlers, that
might be amusing.

DSK

Dutchman System
 

You need to get a Dutchman. If you want one let me
know I can probably get you a good price for one.

"John Cairns" wrote

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote
This topic deserves it's own thread.

Well, I'll start. I have a generic flaking system called a "Lazy Mate",
came with the boat. What a pos! It does keep the sail on the boom,
however.

John Cairns


"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ...
To remove a Dutchman, you lower the sail. It self
flakes. Next you lower the toping lift and disconnect
the topping lift from the wire provided for the Dutchman.
Remove the sail from the boom.

How many mains do you have for a given boat? If you are
racing, you don't need it if you have a big crew. Still I have
seenn some racing boats with Dacron sails using Dutchman's.

It really is a nice system. It works best with newer sails.
Let the sail sit flaked up for a winter and it will fall perfectly
every time.

Combine this with a track system and you can make a nice
coil of main halyard, and simply throw the rope clutch off and
the sail will fall completely down. Rarely will you have to
tug the sail down. I find that if pointed directly into the wind
with this system it falls all the way down as fast as you can
snap your fingers twice.

A Dutchman, with a good track system, and roller furling on
the headsail, means easy sail dousing. The Dutchman also
holds the sail on the boom when the sail ties are removed.
No huge mess of sail falling everywhere.

Without a doubt it is a fabulous system for shorthanded or
solo sailing.

"Capt. JG" wrote
Yeah, I do like the system... I guess it's just the idea of having to
put holes in every new main you get. Has to be custom done for each
situation right? Also, what's the effort like if you have to remove the
sail from the boat? I don't like the standard Lazy Jacks that much
because they tend to interfere with the sails going up sometimes. They
do make the more complicated setup that moves the LJs while the sail
goes up and down, but that yet another level of complexity.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote in message ...
Small holes, with reinforcing patches. The monofilament is
pretty thin stuff. It is certainly not something worth complaining
about compared to other systems with bigger hassles.

"Capt. JG" wrote
The only bummer about the Dutchman system is that you have to put
holes in your sail.

"Bart Senior" .@. wrote
My choice is a Dutchman System, with a good track system
--which gives you all the benefits of sail shaping, as well as easy
hoisting and lowering, and the benefit of keeping the sail where
you want it.