US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

Scotty wrote:
"Maxprop" wrote in message
ink.net...

Your point is correct. The vast majority of goods sold in

the USA are of

foreign manufacture now. I'm always a bit amazed when I

discover the

product I've bought is of local manufacture. Last figures

I saw said the

trade deficit between the US and China was something like

78-22. One only

has to watch container ships entering and leaving San

Francisco Bay to see

this--the incoming are loaded and way down on their

waterlines, while the

departing vessels have empty containers and are riding

high.

Actually, we're shipping a lot of 'stuff' to China. A lot of
machinery, that will be copied and then produced in China
for 1/4 the price.

Scotty


My brother just got back from 3 weeks in China for Alticor, which
has established a large niche there...

US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

In article , katy
wrote:

Maxprop wrote:
Your point is correct. The vast majority of goods sold in the USA are of
foreign manufacture now. I'm always a bit amazed when I discover the
product I've bought is of local manufacture. Last figures I saw said the
trade deficit between the US and China was something like 78-22. One only
has to watch container ships entering and leaving San Francisco Bay to see
this--the incoming are loaded and way down on their waterlines, while the
departing vessels have empty containers and are riding high.

Max


The major problem is that American manufactureres ignored the fact
that this was going to happen. When Mr Sails worked for Steelcase,
his team dragged in a desk made by HON to a presentation and
indicated that that was the future of office furniture and that
tghey should eatablish a competitive line. But the PTB's said
"absolutely not". We would be lowering our standards. Problem was,
though, that unless they bought used, the average small business
owner, which is still the heart of America but is fading fast, could
not afford Steelcase furniture. The average doctor could not
decorate his waiting room with Steelcase designs. So they ignored
the American public, holding out for governemnt contracts. And then
9/11 hit and it was all over. America has sold herself out by not
having the foresight to change with the changing world.

Bingo. We've been running this argument over on rec.crafts.metalworking
for years now. There are basically no US manufacturers of small
precision tools like lathes, mills etc left. South Bend didn't update
its lathe design in 50 years and that wasn't because it was perfect.

I have a mix of US and British machinery and I like it. But it's all
old. When I go to buy a new lathe or milling machine for my people at
work, I buy one made in Taiwan or China. They aren't as elegant or as
well finished, but they cut metal just fine and the accuracy is
satisfactory.

It didn't have to be that way, but it is.

Ditto for vehicles. Almost nobody in Australia would buy an imported US
made vehicle in preference to a Japanese or even Korean made one.

PDW

US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

In article , katy
wrote:

Peter Wiley wrote:
In article . net,
Maxprop wrote:


"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
m...



So - tell me why you own a French yacht when there are so many more
expensive and inferior US made ones available.


She bought her boat used, Pete. It was the best boat available in her
price
range at the time.


Oh, I don't doubt it. Point is, tho, that Katy coulda bought a new US
made boat for a higher price and thereby supported US industry. It
might have been a smaller boat, or a worse equipped boat, or whatever,
of course.

So - what's the difference with foodstuffs? Why insist that people have
to buy US grown produce instead of cheaper imported produce, when the
same logic isn't applied to other items - like boats.

That's my point.

PDW

No, we couldn't and wouldn't have bought a new boat for any reason
at all. Buying a new boat is stupid....the bugs haven't been worked
out of it, it's under-equipped, and usually has the factory
installed acoutrements, generally of a poorer quality than those
installed at a later date by the owner when he wants to upgrade.
Also, once it leaves the factory and is dumped in the slip, the
value drops dramatically. The other point is that Kirie
manufactured Elite's in the US...ours was a prototype from France,
but the company did invest here and employed American citizens. An
investment in this country is necessary for trade relations to be on
par.

No it's not. All you really need is a value exchange, and looking at it
strictly 2 way doesn't work real well.

I agree about buying a new boat. I apply that philosophy to vehicles as
well. The only new vehicle I've ever bought, I still drive after 23
years of ownership. Nobody else would want it now....

PDW

US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

"katy" wrote in message
...
Dave wrote:
On Mon, 27 Feb 2006 19:29:41 -0500, katy

said:


Michigan is still small farm based...as are several other states...


Perhaps. But according to a 1991 study at the University of Michigan the
number of family farms declined from 77,946 in 1969 to 51,172 by 1991. I
doubt that the trend has reversed itself in the last 15 years.

No, it hasn't...and for a very good reason. Developers have exploited
good farm land, forcing townships to raise the value of raw land to a
point where the tac structure alone became a burden to farmers, driving
them off the land. When your farm is making less and less profit and some
developer comes along and offers you a bushel of money for it, you take it
and to hell with the farm, even though you ahve no idea what else you'll
do for a living. Problem is, now that all taht good farmland has been
turned into residential and commercial development, real estate is now
devaluing rapidly. The economy in MI is at an alltime low and people are
leaving the state in droves because of the job market not being able to
support the population. We are in a fortunate position where we do not
have to make a low sale on our house just to get out from under it, but
many in the state will be taking big losses, especially those who bought
the over-inflated pricey real estate in the first place. The whole thing
is a sad situation...onl;y people who benefit are the devlopers and the
realtoes....

Katy, with the exception of waterfront property, there is probably no real
estate in the state of Michigan that's significantly overvalued. Even the
waterfront property, probably. Agreed, the real estate market in Michigan is
fairly poor, but there's the economy again. Now soCal and soFla are another
story entirely. I've read recently that some areas may be overvalued by as
much as 40%.

John Cairns

US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

In article , katy
wrote:

Peter Wiley wrote:

Ditto for vehicles. Almost nobody in Australia would buy an imported US
made vehicle in preference to a Japanese or even Korean made one.

PDW

We had a KIA and our son drives KIA's...junk cars....give me a GM
anyday...or even a Ford....

Give me a Subaru, Toyota, Mitsubishi etc. Korean cars here seem to be
pretty reliable and have long warranties. After that, you've said it
all.

PDW

US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

In article , katy
wrote:

John Cairns wrote:
"katy" wrote in message
...

Dave wrote:

On Mon, 27 Feb 2006 19:29:41 -0500, katy

said:



Michigan is still small farm based...as are several other states...


Perhaps. But according to a 1991 study at the University of Michigan the
number of family farms declined from 77,946 in 1969 to 51,172 by 1991. I
doubt that the trend has reversed itself in the last 15 years.

No, it hasn't...and for a very good reason. Developers have exploited
good farm land, forcing townships to raise the value of raw land to a
point where the tac structure alone became a burden to farmers, driving
them off the land. When your farm is making less and less profit and some
developer comes along and offers you a bushel of money for it, you take it
and to hell with the farm, even though you ahve no idea what else you'll
do for a living. Problem is, now that all taht good farmland has been
turned into residential and commercial development, real estate is now
devaluing rapidly. The economy in MI is at an alltime low and people are
leaving the state in droves because of the job market not being able to
support the population. We are in a fortunate position where we do not
have to make a low sale on our house just to get out from under it, but
many in the state will be taking big losses, especially those who bought
the over-inflated pricey real estate in the first place. The whole thing
is a sad situation...onl;y people who benefit are the devlopers and the
realtoes....


Katy, with the exception of waterfront property, there is probably no real
estate in the state of Michigan that's significantly overvalued. Even the
waterfront property, probably. Agreed, the real estate market in Michigan
is
fairly poor, but there's the economy again. Now soCal and soFla are another
story entirely. I've read recently that some areas may be overvalued by as
much as 40%.

John Cairns

Have a conversation with our realtor. He sends us gobs of articles
about it every week...I ahte realtors...wish we didn't have to use
one...

No such thing as overvalued or undervalued in a free market, except in
someone's perceptions. It's worth what you can sell it for, when you
want to or have to sell it. Period.

What a person paid for it is totally irrelevant.

I agree with you about changes in use driving up prices to where some
activities are no longer economic. Sydney, where I used to live, has
almost no industrial waterfront left because the yuppie scum all wanted
waterfront apartments and then didn't want their view disturbed by
industry, or their peace & quiet disturbed by power tools.

PDW

US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..

That's unsustainable in the longer term too, I think. We run trade
deficits with the USA. At the moment the Chinese demand for raw
materials is helping our economy along, haven't checked but I'd bet
we're running a fat surplus and our exports to China are in USD. You're
a nett importer of goods. I can't see how you can keep running a
country where your chief export seems to be US dollar debt.

My best guess is that we can't. To add complexity to the problem, our
consumptive habits are being taxed by increasing crude prices along with
higher demand for fossil fuels. One reason for this is that China will soon
become a larger consumer of Middle Eastern oil than the US. The influence
US demand for oil has on crude prices will ultimately be less important in
light of that of mainland China.

The USA is living in the past in many respects. Our labor force can't come
to grips with the boilerplate fact that in a world economy the wages they've
grown accustomed to are simply not reasonable if they wish to keep their
jobs from being exported. Further, as you imply, we've evolved into a net
importer of consumer goods with a continuing decline in exports. To further
compound the economic miasma the government has begun to shoulder larger and
larger financial obligations, straining an already-strained middle class to
pay for it all. It's a recipe for disaster, and no one, especially our
legislators, want to talk about it. It's not politically expedient to
discuss such things, apparently, but the next generation or two won't have
much choice. We're leaving our kids and grandkids a dismal legacy. Al
Qaeda won't have to destroy us--we seem to be on course for doing that to
ourselves.

Max

US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

"Scotty" wrote in message
...

"Maxprop" wrote in message
ink.net...

Your point is correct. The vast majority of goods sold in
the USA are of
foreign manufacture now. I'm always a bit amazed when I
discover the
product I've bought is of local manufacture. Last figures
I saw said the
trade deficit between the US and China was something like
78-22. One only
has to watch container ships entering and leaving San
Francisco Bay to see
this--the incoming are loaded and way down on their
waterlines, while the
departing vessels have empty containers and are riding
high.

Actually, we're shipping a lot of 'stuff' to China. A lot of
machinery, that will be copied and then produced in China
for 1/4 the price.

Whew. That makes me feel a whole lot better.

Max

US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

"katy" wrote in message
...
Maxprop wrote:
"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..

In article . net,
Maxprop wrote:


"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
news:270220062239050541%peter_d_wiley@hotmail. com...



So - tell me why you own a French yacht when there are so many more
expensive and inferior US made ones available.


She bought her boat used, Pete. It was the best boat available in her
price
range at the time.

Oh, I don't doubt it. Point is, tho, that Katy coulda bought a new US
made boat for a higher price and thereby supported US industry. It
might have been a smaller boat, or a worse equipped boat, or whatever,
of course.


They had just sold their smaller, US-built boat, and another smaller
US-built boat before that, IIRC. Chanteuse was a substantial size
upgrade.

27 feet to 30 ft and 4 inches is a substantial size difference? And both
the previous boats were very old...the upkeep on them was horrendous and
the 27 had an atomic 4 that was going to need to be replaced...Neither had
any great value and the 22' sailed for crap (shoal draft)...we upgraded to
a boat with diesel and a wheel (27 was a tiller boat and Mr Sails has had
rotator cuff surgery...)

Sorry. I was just being kind.

The major problem is that American manufactureres ignored the fact that
this was going to happen.

American manufacturing only? Doesn't American labor play a role in this?

When Mr Sails worked for Steelcase, his team dragged in a desk made by HON
to a presentation and indicated that that was the future of office
furniture and that tghey should eatablish a competitive line. But the
PTB's said "absolutely not". We would be lowering our standards. Problem
was, though, that unless they bought used, the average small business
owner, which is still the heart of America but is fading fast, could not
afford Steelcase furniture. The average doctor could not decorate his
waiting room with Steelcase designs. So they ignored the American public,
holding out for governemnt contracts. And then 9/11 hit and it was all
over. America has sold herself out by not having the foresight to change
with the changing world.

America can compete nicely with just about anyone, but some changes are
necessary. To compete with one's competitors, one must at the very least
emulate them. Better yet one should create a cost advantage for the same
quality, or create a quality advantage for the same cost. The US is capable
of doing either, or both. But labor is going to have to recognize some
major realignment, along with top-heavy industry. The $30 per hour jobs are
vanishing faster than spotted owls, and until organized labor acknowledges
that low-paying jobs are better than NO jobs, the situation will exacerbate.
And CEOs and other top-level execs are going to have to face the fact that
multi-million dollar annual salaries and golden parachutes aren't compatible
with the world economic markets of the day.

My take? Neither side will give an inch before the whole thing collapses
into a ruined American economy. I hope to be sailing somewhere in the
Caribbean with my money in offshore banks by then.

Max

US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..

I have a mix of US and British machinery and I like it. But it's all
old. When I go to buy a new lathe or milling machine for my people at
work, I buy one made in Taiwan or China. They aren't as elegant or as
well finished, but they cut metal just fine and the accuracy is
satisfactory.

Within the past three years I've purchased a cabinet saw, a wood lathe, a
larger band saw, and several other smaller machines, such as belt sanders,
planer, jointer, and the like. Each Taiwanese. I searched for
American-built counterparts, but nothing came close in either price or
quality for the same money. It's as if nobody stateside cares. But they
will---mark my word.


It didn't have to be that way, but it is.

Ditto for vehicles. Almost nobody in Australia would buy an imported US
made vehicle in preference to a Japanese or even Korean made one.

I'm amazed anyone in *America* would buy a US-built vehicle over a far
eastern example. Some still do, and those same folks raise hell with me for
buying foreign. But the numbers are slipping in favor of the imports.
Toyota's Camry is the #1 selling sedan of its size range here now. The next
three are comprised of two imports and an American.

Max