US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

"Scotty" wrote in message
...

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
news:010320060011210810% Bingo. We've been running this
argument over on rec.crafts.metalworking
for years now. There are basically no US manufacturers of
small
precision tools like lathes, mills etc left. South Bend
didn't update
its lathe design in 50 years and that wasn't because it
was perfect.

I have a mix of US and British machinery and I like it.
But it's all
old. When I go to buy a new lathe or milling machine for
my people at
work, I buy one made in Taiwan or China. They aren't as
elegant or as
well finished, but they cut metal just fine and the
accuracy is
satisfactory.


Rockwell, a local plant made small printing presses
($500,000 a piece ) . The Japs copied them and offered them
for half price. Customers told me that the USA press was
made better, more precise, & lasted longer but for half
price, if you didn't run them as hard, the Jap copy did the
job okay.

That's the way it typically works. My Taiwanese woodworking machinery isn't
up to the quality standards of the original US-built machines that were
copied, but they cost a fraction of the originals, and they work well
enough.

Max

US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

Has the pink paint faded?


"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
My jeep has 125K and runs fine.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 1 Mar 2006 13:26:56 -0500, "Scotty"
said:

What year? My '91 Explorer, with 110K on runs fine.

Hey, so does my '89 Acclaim. But it's only got 74K on
it.

US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

When I got it new, they had already painted over the undercoat, which I
believe _is_ pink. Interesting that you would know this... it is "forest
green." :-)

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Scotty" wrote in message
...
Has the pink paint faded?


"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
My jeep has 125K and runs fine.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 1 Mar 2006 13:26:56 -0500, "Scotty"
said:

What year? My '91 Explorer, with 110K on runs fine.

Hey, so does my '89 Acclaim. But it's only got 74K on
it.

US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

In article , Scotty
wrote:

"katy" wrote in message
...

Ditto for vehicles. Almost nobody in Australia would buy
an imported US
made vehicle in preference to a Japanese or even Korean
made one.

PDW

We had a KIA and our son drives KIA's...junk cars....give
me a GM
anyday...or even a Ford....

Both my Son and Daughter own KIAs. They couldn't afford much
more and I told them with the long warranty they were better
than a used 'Merican car. I also told them I was tired of
working on cars.

Me too. That's why I sold my Range Rover and bought a Mitsubishi. It's
why my car is a Subaru Liberty AWD that's 15 years old, 227,000 on the
clock and works just fine, thanks. If/when I retire I'll buy a Subaru
Forester and I reckon that'll see me out nicely.

PDW

US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

In article , Scotty
wrote:

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
news:010320060011210810% Bingo. We've been running this
argument over on rec.crafts.metalworking
for years now. There are basically no US manufacturers of
small
precision tools like lathes, mills etc left. South Bend
didn't update
its lathe design in 50 years and that wasn't because it
was perfect.

I have a mix of US and British machinery and I like it.
But it's all
old. When I go to buy a new lathe or milling machine for
my people at
work, I buy one made in Taiwan or China. They aren't as
elegant or as
well finished, but they cut metal just fine and the
accuracy is
satisfactory.


Rockwell, a local plant made small printing presses
($500,000 a piece ) . The Japs copied them and offered them
for half price. Customers told me that the USA press was
made better, more precise, & lasted longer but for half
price, if you didn't run them as hard, the Jap copy did the
job okay.

People on r.c.m keep on about how old American iron is so superior to
new Asian stuff. They're dreaming. There are exceptions - Hardinge,
Monarch etc - but the price of a new Monarch 10EE would pay for a
house.

As for South Bend - they were trying to sell a flat belt lathe bare of
tools for 3X the cost of a bigger, more powerful, geared head Asian
machine with chucks, faceplate, camlock spindle etc etc. Unless you
have more money than sense, you'd never buy one. They never modernised,
they never changed the design and they went under. So sad, too bad.

I think my US made Grob Bros 18" bandsaw is a wonderful bit of gear. I
use it all the time. But I bought it used for 1/3 the price of a new
Asian unit. If I'd had to try to find a modern one, I would have been
buying Asian.

PDW

US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

In article et,
Maxprop wrote:

America has sold herself out by not having the foresight to change
with the changing world.

America can compete nicely with just about anyone, but some changes are
necessary. To compete with one's competitors, one must at the very least
emulate them. Better yet one should create a cost advantage for the same
quality, or create a quality advantage for the same cost. The US is capable
of doing either, or both.

Yeah, but you don't. Instead you try to either convince your market
that an inferior prodict is somehow better via clever advertising, or
you run to the Govt and try to get the competition excluded from the
market somehow when option A doesn't work.

But labor is going to have to recognize some
major realignment, along with top-heavy industry. The $30 per hour jobs are
vanishing faster than spotted owls, and until organized labor acknowledges
that low-paying jobs are better than NO jobs, the situation will exacerbate.

I don't think this works either. You are then in a race to the bottom
with labor in other countries which have much lower living standards
and costs of living.

And CEOs and other top-level execs are going to have to face the fact that
multi-million dollar annual salaries and golden parachutes aren't compatible
with the world economic markets of the day.

Yeah, I agree. The cost of screwing up a business needs to be brought
home to those responsible. At the moment it seems that the stock
holders lose, and employees lose, but senior management are immune due
to their payment structures.

My take? Neither side will give an inch before the whole thing collapses
into a ruined American economy. I hope to be sailing somewhere in the
Caribbean with my money in offshore banks by then.

I plan on being in a nice 3rd World country with a good climate.
Fortunately for me NZ is only a week's sailing away. OTOH right where I
am is pretty good, too.

PDW

US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

Maxprop wrote:
He's not worth a debate, Dave. Binary Bill, aka MysTerry, is little more
than an uninformed agitator. You're attempting a logical discussion with
him. It's unlikely he'll do more than engage in personal attacks.


I hope not. If so, you and Dave will start thinking he's me.

DSK

US ports... now housing prices
 

I'm sure this makes you angry, since you are one of the outsiders who
bought high-priced land less than a stone's throw from Bugsquat.


Maxprop wrote:
Angry? Surely you jest. I bought when Bugsquat was cheap. It ain't any
more.


No, you bought land in a swamp that overpriced (or would be,
in the absence of aggressive marketing) five years before
you bought it.

As long as there is a flood of rich retirees with loads of
cash keep believing the advertising, there will be a demand
and prices will keep going up.



.... No one is talking generalities here, so
save the homespun economics lesson for your neighborhood kids. Bore
them, not us.


And what is the trend for local wages over the same period, hmm? What is
the overall cost of living relative to other areas?


Chicago--wages haven't come close to staying up with RE values. Income has,
for certain groups of people, however, mostly entrepreneurs.

In other words, a big shift of income distribution that
hides the decline in overall real income?


Cost of living
(exclusive of home ownership/renting) has remained relatively on par with
the rest of the country. The cost of living index is only a few tenths of a
point higher on average in Chicago than it is in South Bend, IN, with
shelter costs removed from the equation. Add shelter expense and it's a
whole different story.


Makes sense to me.



As long as it is a desirable place to live, real estate will do well. When
does that trend reverse?


I think I asked first, since you implied that RE did not always sustain an
upward trend over the long haul.


You yourself have pointed out the oil-rush towns that are
dead. Add to that the Dust Bowl towns, the gold rush towns,
waterfront in Port Royal, etc etc. Isolated examples, true,
but it doesn't help the people who paid for that land and
had it turn worthless on them.

Human natu If it happens to someone else, it's a minor
fluctuation in the overal trend. If it happens to you, it's
an economic crisis.



NC is doing relatively well--I'm well aware of that, being a land owner
there and keeping up with such matters. But there is a dichotomy of
substantial proportions between the highly prosperous urban areas, such as
Raleigh-Durham, Charlotte, etc. and the outlying rural areas where poverty
is and has been continuous for decades.

Don't know much about tobacco farming do you? Drive around
out in the country and see who has nice brick houses with
fancy toys in the yard.



... Subtract the urban factor and you
have a typically impoverished deep south state.

Really? You ignore the pharmeceutical & computer industries
stake, the financial development in Charlotte, etc etc.

The economy in NC is a good example of pretty smart
development, most ways.


... As for us tidewater (we
prefer that to swamp land, thank you kindly) types, we're crying all the way
to the bank.


Good. We wouldn't you to become one of the impoverished
rural types.


LOL. We're definitely not on the same page here.

Yep. Apparently you can't follow a chain of logic that far.
Sorry.




Of course it's happening elsewhere, but not anywhere near the same rate as
in the places mentioned. My property in Oriental has tripled in value since
Jan. '04.

Uh huh.
And you expect it to keep rising at that rate for how long?

What local economic development supports that high price?
What are average incomes in the area?


.... And for the record, Oriental is hardly swamp
land. The Neuse River has deposited soil at its mouth for centuries.

Who told you that? Where they laughing?



..... Next you're going to tell me that
someone is planning to backfill the sound to create more development land
all the way to the barrier islands (Outer Banks, for those who are curious).

Can't do that, then they couldn't advertise Oriental as "the
Sailing Capital of NC."


I think you're envious of those of us who bought when the prices were
reasonable.

Get real. I've owned land in the New Bern area and down the
county (not in downtown Oriental but close) for almost 25
years. It's gone up, and I expect to see it go down.




... Or perhaps your a xenophobe who hates any outsiders moving to
his precious state. Get over it.


Back to that again, eh?


... But as long as you raised the point, can you show me that the Dow
Jones Industrials average is lower now than, say 20 years ago? Or 50
years.

Easy enough to look it up. There have been long periods when the stock
marcket indexes were flat or downward.


Doug--you really need to learn to comprehend what you read.

???

I guess this is the sort of Jaxxian statement you can fall
back on when you've contradicted yourself multiple times and
been flat wrong the rest of the time (except for the part
about cycles).



...I'll ask again--show me any state where RE values are lower
today than 20 or 50 years ago. Same with the Dow.


Ahem, you said yourself that there were places land was
worth only 10% what it used to be.

As for the Dow, it's artificially manipulated to make it
look like it is going up when it really isn't. But you can
look at a graph of the S&P and find places where it is
flat... or drops cyclically to point below... over ten or
fifteen years. 20 or 50 years? Probably that would fall
pretty close to the all-time historical average of 12%
annual... which is one reason why I invest in the stock market.



You have missed the point. Is the value higher or lower *relative to
what*?


You've lost this argument, haven't you. You're grasping at straws.

Umm, no. I'm repeating a point you have repeatedly missed.

And you called me a Nazi, which means you've officially lost
anyway. I'm just carrying on with this discussion because
I'm a good sport.




Thanks, but I suspect we'll do fine without your titles. We all seem to be
able to identify the obvious.


???
Actually I would say that's one of your problems.

DSK

US ports... now housing prices
 

"katy" wrote in message
...
Maxprop wrote:
"DSK" wrote in message
.. .

Capt. JG wrote:

I think you're talking about Prop 13.



He's got it confused with Area 51


I've been afflicted with avian flu H5N1.

Max
I always knew you were bird-brained ; P

Kiss my tail feathers. g

Max

US ports... now housing prices
 

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 01 Mar 2006 20:16:02 GMT, "Maxprop"
wrote:


"katy" wrote in message
...
Maxprop wrote:
"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
...


My Mother in law has waterfront in Florida. Value has doubled each of
the last two years. And it is real because the house is not for sale
but she has people knocking on the door making offers. It is not a
good thing unless you are flipping real estate. If you just want to
live there eventually the taxes and insurance will drive you out.


I thought Florida had passed a law similar to California's Prop 51,
which
freezes property taxes at the buy-in level. Not true?


I
feel sorry for people who retired on a fixed income and their dream
was to live near the water in Florida. Even though Florida limits
the amount of tax increase per year for a homstead, I expect it will
eventually drive them out.


Guess I should have read on--so FL *can* raise property taxes, but at a
fixed rate for homesteads. Hmmm. Not good for those on fixed incomes.
Then again the real estate moguls control that state, lock, stock, and
barrel, and increasing property taxes may be their way of forcing folks
out of their homes, which puts them on the market for them to sell
profitably. No one ever accused FL of being altruistic w/r/t real
estate.
One has only to look at all the coastal wetlands that got backfilled
between the 60s and the present, all in the name of creating canals for
more "waterfront" property.

Max
And it's a renewable resource to boot. One massive hurricane like
Katrina, and whammo, they get to start all over again.

The builders love it. So do the shyster, fly-by-night remodeling types.

Max


Actually each hurricane seems initiate code creation that improves the
chances of a structure surviving the next one. My mother in laws
place was totaled during a hurricane about ten years ago. walking
down the beach I noticed that all the homes that had been built to the
new coastal codes survived with minimal damage and all like hers that
had been built before the coastal codes were pretty much toast. Her
replacement home is built to the new codes and has gone through a
couple of minor hurricanes with no damage.

I've recently seen ads for picture windows which will withstand winds and
flying debris up to 125mph or so. Necessity is the mother of invention,
apparently.

Max

US ports... now housing prices
 

"DSK" wrote in message
...
I'm sure this makes you angry, since you are one of the outsiders who
bought high-priced land less than a stone's throw from Bugsquat.


Maxprop wrote:
Angry? Surely you jest. I bought when Bugsquat was cheap. It ain't any
more.


No, you bought land in a swamp that overpriced (or would be, in the
absence of aggressive marketing) five years before you bought it.

As long as there is a flood of rich retirees with loads of cash keep
believing the advertising, there will be a demand and prices will keep
going up.

I couldn't care less the reason for the appreciation. And you seem to be
overlooking a simple fact: my view of the Neuse (about 5 statute miles wide
at that point) and Pamlico Sound is spectacular. You call it swamp land, I
call it gorgeous. My neighbors apparently do as well, otherwise they'd
probably not be building half million dollar homes on their land.




.... No one is talking generalities here, so save the homespun
economics lesson for your neighborhood kids. Bore them, not us.


And what is the trend for local wages over the same period, hmm? What is
the overall cost of living relative to other areas?


Chicago--wages haven't come close to staying up with RE values. Income
has, for certain groups of people, however, mostly entrepreneurs.

In other words, a big shift of income distribution that hides the decline
in overall real income?


Cost of living
(exclusive of home ownership/renting) has remained relatively on par
with the rest of the country. The cost of living index is only a few
tenths of a point higher on average in Chicago than it is in South Bend,
IN, with shelter costs removed from the equation. Add shelter expense
and it's a whole different story.


Makes sense to me.



As long as it is a desirable place to live, real estate will do well.
When does that trend reverse?


I think I asked first, since you implied that RE did not always sustain
an upward trend over the long haul.


You yourself have pointed out the oil-rush towns that are dead. Add to
that the Dust Bowl towns, the gold rush towns, waterfront in Port Royal,
etc etc. Isolated examples, true, but it doesn't help the people who paid
for that land and had it turn worthless on them.

Nope. But I didn't bring their situation up--you did. Had you stuck with
the original topic we might have made some progress in this debate.

Human natu If it happens to someone else, it's a minor fluctuation in
the overal trend. If it happens to you, it's an economic crisis.

You seem to have a knack for the obvious. What's your point?




NC is doing relatively well--I'm well aware of that, being a land owner
there and keeping up with such matters. But there is a dichotomy of
substantial proportions between the highly prosperous urban areas, such
as Raleigh-Durham, Charlotte, etc. and the outlying rural areas where
poverty is and has been continuous for decades.

Don't know much about tobacco farming do you? Drive around out in the
country and see who has nice brick houses with fancy toys in the yard.

You can come up with isolated examples all day, but they still have nothing
to do with the original premise of this discussion.




... Subtract the urban factor and you have a typically impoverished deep
south state.

Really? You ignore the pharmeceutical & computer industries stake, the
financial development in Charlotte, etc etc.

Are you for real? Go back and read my last post--the parts you deleted.
You'll find mention of the cities, including *Charlotte.* Those pharm
companies aren't sitting out in the middle of cotton fields near Bugsquat,
NC. By the way, Duke got beat tonight by Florida State, dammit. I'm a huge
fan of Coach K.

The economy in NC is a good example of pretty smart development, most
ways.

That may be true, but the rural areas are *generally* impoverished. I'm now
putting asterisks around key words, because you seem to enjoy ignoring them.



... As for us tidewater (we prefer that to swamp land, thank you kindly)
types, we're crying all the way to the bank.


Good. We wouldn't you to become one of the impoverished rural types.

LOL. We're definitely not on the same page here.

Yep. Apparently you can't follow a chain of logic that far. Sorry.

LOL again. Logic is not your long suit, Doug. Stick with engineering or
whatever it is you do for a living.





Of course it's happening elsewhere, but not anywhere near the same rate
as in the places mentioned. My property in Oriental has tripled in value
since Jan. '04.

Uh huh.
And you expect it to keep rising at that rate for how long?

As long as waterfront property remains scarce and demand for it remains
high. That has been the immutable trend for as long as I can remember.


What local economic development supports that high price?

See above.

What are average incomes in the area?

Irrelevant. Not far outside Oriental one can see the poverty that pervades
much of the deep south. The contrast between the impoverished areas and the
leisure/boating/vacation/development areas is poignant. Even more poignant
is that the poverty (and the area income levels) is irrelevant to such
development. You can see this up and down all three coasts of the US.
Local income doesn't drive the price of waterfront property. Are you naive
enough to believe that only locals buy up waterfront property in a locale?
Or more to the point, can any significant number of them afford it?


.... And for the record, Oriental is hardly swamp land. The Neuse
River has deposited soil at its mouth for centuries.

Who told you that? Where they laughing?

Your jealousy is showing. But for the sake of argument, swamp land is high
on the list of popular waterfront development currently. Check out the
coast of Georgia. Prices along those estuaries are nearly double what
Oriental is bringing today. That's probably because the rivers around
Oriental have a very small proportion of swamp compared with those same
regions in Georgia. Both Florida coasts were lined with swamps before the
developers filled them all in to make canals and limitless "waterfront"
property. Read John D. McDonald's "A Flash of Green" to gain some
perspective on how the residents of coastal FL felt about losing their
much-loved natural wetlands to bulldozers.




..... Next you're going to tell me that someone is planning to backfill
the sound to create more development land all the way to the barrier
islands (Outer Banks, for those who are curious).

Can't do that, then they couldn't advertise Oriental as "the Sailing
Capital of NC."

You don't hide envy well, Doug.



I think you're envious of those of us who bought when the prices were
reasonable.

Get real. I've owned land in the New Bern area and down the county (not in
downtown Oriental but close) for almost 25 years. It's gone up, and I
expect to see it go down.

If it's not on water, you're probably right.


... Or perhaps your a xenophobe who hates any outsiders moving to his
precious state. Get over it.


Back to that again, eh?

Some things never change. Like your attitude toward outsiders coming into
your precious state. Here's a bulletin for you, Doug--unless you own all of
NC, you really don't have much to say about it. Get over it.



... But as long as you raised the point, can you show me that the Dow
Jones Industrials average is lower now than, say 20 years ago? Or 50
years.

Easy enough to look it up. There have been long periods when the stock
marcket indexes were flat or downward.


Doug--you really need to learn to comprehend what you read.

???

I guess this is the sort of Jaxxian statement you can fall back on when
you've contradicted yourself multiple times and been flat wrong the rest
of the time (except for the part about cycles).

And this statement is tantamount to an admission that you've lost this
debate.



...I'll ask again--show me any state where RE values are lower today than
20 or 50 years ago. Same with the Dow.


Ahem, you said yourself that there were places land was worth only 10%
what it used to be.

Okay, Doug, I'm going to take this nice and slowly, so even you can
comprehend. Read my statement (above) again, word for word. Okay, have you
done that? Gooood. Now, did you happen to notice the word "state" in that
first sentence? Good. Now, when I was referring to those areas where
values plummeted, was I referring to an entire state, or just an isolated
locale? Okay. Now, let's take Michigan, for example, because that was one
of the examples I gave. Are you staying with me? Good. Now even though a
few spots near copper country have lost value, Michigan has experienced a
net property value increase, and has done so continuously for decades. THAT
is what I was talking about. Not just a few towns or locales. I hope that
helped. Good.


As for the Dow, it's artificially manipulated to make it look like it is
going up when it really isn't. But you can look at a graph of the S&P and
find places where it is flat... or drops cyclically to point below... over
ten or fifteen years. 20 or 50 years? Probably that would fall pretty
close to the all-time historical average of 12% annual... which is one
reason why I invest in the stock market.

Thank you for corroborating my point.


You have missed the point. Is the value higher or lower *relative to
what*?


You've lost this argument, haven't you. You're grasping at straws.

Umm, no. I'm repeating a point you have repeatedly missed.

And you called me a Nazi, which means you've officially lost anyway. I'm
just carrying on with this discussion because I'm a good sport.

You are a sensitive guy, aren't ya? I *asked* if you were the Thread Nazi
(with apologies to Jerry Seinfeld). I didn't call you anything, rather I
gave you the opportunity to confirm or deny. And yes, you have been a good
sport, if a bit contentious. I guess we both have been. I think we're
destined to be contentious with each other. Not likely we'd ever be
anything resembling friends, which is probably why I've not been concerned
with looking you up when I'm in New Bern or Oriental. I'll leave that to
Katy.


Thanks, but I suspect we'll do fine without your titles. We all seem to
be able to identify the obvious.


???
Actually I would say that's one of your problems.

Whatever.

Max

US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article , Scotty
wrote:

"katy" wrote in message
...

Ditto for vehicles. Almost nobody in Australia would buy
an imported US
made vehicle in preference to a Japanese or even Korean
made one.

PDW

We had a KIA and our son drives KIA's...junk cars....give
me a GM
anyday...or even a Ford....

Both my Son and Daughter own KIAs. They couldn't afford much
more and I told them with the long warranty they were better
than a used 'Merican car. I also told them I was tired of
working on cars.

Me too. That's why I sold my Range Rover and bought a Mitsubishi. It's
why my car is a Subaru Liberty AWD that's 15 years old, 227,000 on the
clock and works just fine, thanks. If/when I retire I'll buy a Subaru
Forester and I reckon that'll see me out nicely.

A lifelong friend in Vermont has a Subaru--sorry, can't recall the
model--with just a shade over half a million miles on it. Lots of
fiberglass and Bondo, and it sure ain't pretty, but it runs just fine. The
engine is original with two top overhauls plus a new transmission a while
back. He loves to complain about it, but if you say anything even remotely
disdainful about it, it's as if you've called his mother a whore.

Max

US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article et,
Maxprop wrote:

America has sold herself out by not having the foresight to change
with the changing world.

America can compete nicely with just about anyone, but some changes are
necessary. To compete with one's competitors, one must at the very least
emulate them. Better yet one should create a cost advantage for the same
quality, or create a quality advantage for the same cost. The US is
capable
of doing either, or both.

Yeah, but you don't. Instead you try to either convince your market
that an inferior prodict is somehow better via clever advertising,

No one with even a modicum of intelligence is buying that anymore. That's
why the companies building such products are struggling.

or
you run to the Govt and try to get the competition excluded from the
market somehow when option A doesn't work.

Sucks, doesn't it. Protectionism works both ways, but the companies with
inferior products don't seem to understand that principle.

But labor is going to have to recognize some
major realignment, along with top-heavy industry. The $30 per hour jobs
are
vanishing faster than spotted owls, and until organized labor
acknowledges
that low-paying jobs are better than NO jobs, the situation will
exacerbate.

I don't think this works either. You are then in a race to the bottom
with labor in other countries which have much lower living standards
and costs of living.

Dave pointed this out earlier, and I agree.


And CEOs and other top-level execs are going to have to face the fact
that
multi-million dollar annual salaries and golden parachutes aren't
compatible
with the world economic markets of the day.

Yeah, I agree. The cost of screwing up a business needs to be brought
home to those responsible. At the moment it seems that the stock
holders lose, and employees lose, but senior management are immune due
to their payment structures.

It only takes a few years at $20 million per, plus a golden parachute to
feather one's nest rather plushly. Again, it sucks, but what's a mother to
do?


My take? Neither side will give an inch before the whole thing collapses
into a ruined American economy. I hope to be sailing somewhere in the
Caribbean with my money in offshore banks by then.

I plan on being in a nice 3rd World country with a good climate.
Fortunately for me NZ is only a week's sailing away. OTOH right where I
am is pretty good, too.

I bought a piece of just-off-the-beachfront land on a small island a year
ago. You have to understand that in the Caribbean, the higher up on the
hill, the more expensive and desirable the property. So mine is at the
bottom of the food chain, so to speak. But a small dwelling with a good,
solid roof will do me fine. And a boat--gotta have a boat.

Max

US ports... now housing prices
 

Maxprop wrote:

"Martin Baxter" wrote in message
...
DSK wrote:


How about real estate in general--can you show me any state in the
country
where RE values are lower than they were 20 or 50 years ago?

I'll bet there are lots of places along Rte 66, (after adjustment for
inflation).

But as you certainly noted, I said "any state," not just a few spots or
locales. For example, when the oil shale fiasco hit the skids, the towns
that grew up around the proposed strip mines died completely. You could buy
a $60K house there for 10% of the original unimproved land cost. There are
some areas in the Upper Peninsula in Michigan where the copper mines have
shut down and homes are on the block for a fraction of their build costs.
But net RE values in Michigan have continued to escalate with only minor
burbles in the upward curve. Adjusted for inflation, the aggregate land
values in Michigan are still ahead of the curve.

Indeed, taken as a whole you are correct. It's really simple supply and
demand, the population continues to grow, more people want land, and, as
Will Rogers said about land, "They aint makin' no more.".

Cheers
Marty

US ports... now housing prices
 

some areas in the Upper Peninsula in Michigan where the copper mines have
shut down and homes are on the block for a fraction of their build costs.
But net RE values in Michigan have continued to escalate with only minor
burbles in the upward curve. Adjusted for inflation, the aggregate land
values in Michigan are still ahead of the curve.


Like I said, if it happens to the other guy, it's an
unfortunate aberration from the general trend. If it happens
to *you* it's a major crash.


Martin Baxter wrote:
Indeed, taken as a whole you are correct. It's really simple supply and
demand, the population continues to grow, more people want land, and, as
Will Rogers said about land, "They aint makin' no more.".


They are in Holland.

One thing that Maxprop utterly rejects about the
supply/demand situation is that in his particular case,
demand is largely created by advertising. For those who
don't believe it is possible to influence markets so
strongly, consider the relative prices & virtues of
different brands of beer.

Once the lots are all sold and the advertising goes away....
then what?

DSK

US ports... now housing prices
 

As long as there is a flood of rich retirees with loads of cash keep
believing the advertising, there will be a demand and prices will keep
going up.


Maxprop wrote:
I couldn't care less the reason for the appreciation. And you seem to be
overlooking a simple fact: my view of the Neuse (about 5 statute miles wide
at that point) and Pamlico Sound is spectacular. You call it swamp land, I
call it gorgeous. My neighbors apparently do as well, otherwise they'd
probably not be building half million dollar homes on their land.

Sounds like you're in Janeiro, not Oriental. Dawson's Landing?

Ah yes, come and join the flood of Yankees complaining that
that local workers are lazy & unreliable & charge too much.




Nope. But I didn't bring their situation up--you did. Had you stuck with
the original topic we might have made some progress in this debate.


Is this a debate? So far you seem intent on ignoring reality
& contradicting yourself.


Human natu If it happens to someone else, it's a minor fluctuation in
the overal trend. If it happens to you, it's an economic crisis.


You seem to have a knack for the obvious. What's your point?


That you lightly dismiss everything that disproves your
assertions, because it happened to somebody else.





NC is doing relatively well--I'm well aware of that, being a land owner
there and keeping up with such matters. But there is a dichotomy of
substantial proportions between the highly prosperous urban areas, such
as Raleigh-Durham, Charlotte, etc. and the outlying rural areas where
poverty is and has been continuous for decades.

Don't know much about tobacco farming do you? Drive around out in the
country and see who has nice brick houses with fancy toys in the yard.


You can come up with isolated examples all day, but they still have nothing
to do with the original premise of this discussion.


Aw shucks, you're just saying that.

No, really.

The "original premise" seems to be your advertising-driven
conviction that *your* land will go up astronomically in
value forever, and that anybody who says different is a
corn-pone munchin' hillbilly.






... Subtract the urban factor and you have a typically impoverished deep
south state.

Really? You ignore the pharmeceutical & computer industries stake, the
financial development in Charlotte, etc etc.


Are you for real?

Yes

... Go back and read my last post--the parts you deleted.
You'll find mention of the cities, including *Charlotte.*

Yep, sure did.

I never said you didn't *mention* the cities, including
*Charlotte* but I thought it was worth mentioning the reason
why they are prosperous... the economic underpinnings, if
you like the term. It's not just hi-rises & Wal-Mart.


...Those pharm
companies aren't sitting out in the middle of cotton fields near Bugsquat,
NC.

Heh heh, actually they sort of are. The "Research Triangle"
was considered a big joke by most people for decades.




the rural areas are *generally* impoverished.

Now who's making useless generalities?

And I think that I've probably spent a lot more time in
rural NC than you. I saw the tobacco auction/warehouses
close one by one, and now I'm watching hi-tech cotton
handling facilities sprout.

It's true that eastern NC is generally poorer, but it also
costs a lot less to live there (except in Oriental where you
have to drive 20 miles to a grocery store). And you have
priceless benefits... I happen to like a lot of elbow room.
Must be my pioneer genes.



... I'm now
putting asterisks around key words, because you seem to enjoy ignoring them.


Not at all.


LOL again. Logic is not your long suit, Doug. Stick with engineering or
whatever it is you do for a living.


Are your assertions & "proofs" more logical? You're the one
contradicting yourself at almost every turn.


Of course it's happening elsewhere, but not anywhere near the same rate
as in the places mentioned. My property in Oriental has tripled in value
since Jan. '04.

Uh huh.
And you expect it to keep rising at that rate for how long?


As long as waterfront property remains scarce and demand for it remains
high. That has been the immutable trend for as long as I can remember.


Really? That same waterfront land has been there for how
long now? And the upward trend just started when?

BTW you should explain how the Neuse River deposited that
land there, without any current and no silt load.

Actually, there is a lot of silt in the Neuse nowadays
because of upstream development... what I like to call the
bulldozer races... but for all of history up 'till now, that
hasn't been the case.




What local economic development supports that high price?


See above.


What are average incomes in the area?


Irrelevant.

Now there's some logic for you.

... Not far outside Oriental one can see the poverty that pervades
much of the deep south. The contrast between the impoverished areas and the
leisure/boating/vacation/development areas is poignant.

"Poignant" is it?!??

Just a couple of years ago, my wife and I were driving out
that way, and saw a genuine tarpaper shack. A bad reminder
of the old days, it's gone now. When I was a kid, a number
of my friends lived in tarpaper shacks and houses with dirt
floors. Now they are all gone & good riddance... to you I
suppose a mobile home is a sign of distressful poverty. To
others it's a big step up in the world.

Poverty? Let's talk about the South being kept as a 3rd
World country up thru the 1970s, by outside financial &
industrial interests, for the sake of cheap labor & lack of
environmental laws.

The South was then what the Pacific Rim is now.




... Even more poignant
is that the poverty (and the area income levels) is irrelevant to such
development.

Wrong again.

Developers seek out cheap land because that's where they can
make the most profit.



... You can see this up and down all three coasts of the US.
Local income doesn't drive the price of waterfront property. Are you naive
enough to believe that only locals buy up waterfront property in a locale?

No, did I say that?

Or more to the point, can any significant number of them afford it?


That's right, us ignorant hillbillies cain't 'ford no
waterfront home nor nuthin' like a fancy sailboat.

Next time you're in Oriental, take a pleasant stroll down
Front Street, and notice the architecture of the waterfront
homes. Stop at the Manning house, and ask one of the quaint
locals about the history of some of them.



.... And for the record, Oriental is hardly swamp land. The Neuse
River has deposited soil at its mouth for centuries.

Who told you that? Where they laughing?


Your jealousy is showing.

Yeah right.



I think you're envious of those of us who bought when the prices were
reasonable.

Get real. I've owned land in the New Bern area and down the county (not in
downtown Oriental but close) for almost 25 years. It's gone up, and I
expect to see it go down.


If it's not on water, you're probably right.


Get back to me when you've owned land in the area half as
long. There have been cycles of booms & busts (as you
pointed out) but no booms as big... and that leads me to
believe that the bust will also be big.




Some things never change. Like your attitude toward outsiders coming into
your precious state. Here's a bulletin for you, Doug--unless you own all of
NC, you really don't have much to say about it. Get over it.


Kinda like you'll have to get used to banjo music, huh?




And this statement is tantamount to an admission that you've lost this
debate.


Keep saying that over & over & over. Maybe somebody will
believe you.


Okay, Doug, I'm going to take this nice and slowly, so even you can
comprehend. Read my statement (above) again, word for word. Okay, have you
done that? Gooood. Now, did you happen to notice the word "state" in that
first sentence? Good. Now, when I was referring to those areas where
values plummeted, was I referring to an entire state, or just an isolated
locale?

Did you *buy* the entire state, or just a small part of an
isolated locale?

... Okay. Now, let's take Michigan, for example, because that was one
of the examples I gave. Are you staying with me? Good. Now even though a
few spots near copper country have lost value, Michigan has experienced a
net property value increase, and has done so continuously for decades. THAT
is what I was talking about. Not just a few towns or locales. I hope that
helped. Good.


I don't disagree, although I think with some research you
could find large areas with net declines.

My point is that you are a bright shining example of
thinking that if it happens to somebody else, it's an
isolated incident in an otherwise positive trend... and that
you also seem to think it can't possibly happen to you.

Actually I hope it doesn't.


.... And yes, you have been a good
sport, if a bit contentious.

Really? It seems to me like I have agreed with a lot of what
you said, after being accused of being a xenophobic
hillbilly and a Nazi. I am merely pointing out the places
where your "logic" takes a flying leap and your facts are
(shall we say) less veritable.



.... Not likely we'd ever be
anything resembling friends, which is probably why I've not been concerned
with looking you up when I'm in New Bern or Oriental.

Just as well. Actually I have enjoyed discussing issues with
you, but you seem to get very upset when people disagree
with you.

Regards
Doug King

US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

Careful Max, or he'll post your address. That's his ''big
gun''.

Bwahahahahahahahahah


"DSK" wrote in message
.. .
Maxprop wrote:
He's not worth a debate, Dave. Binary Bill, aka
MysTerry, is little more
than an uninformed agitator. You're attempting a
logical discussion with
him. It's unlikely he'll do more than engage in
personal attacks.


I hope not. If so, you and Dave will start thinking he's
me.

DSK

US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

"Joe" wrote in message
oups.com..
..

My little siter bought a house in Cape Coral Fla. 4 yrs
ago for 225K.
She sold it last week for 885K. Almost a 400% profit. She
still has a
duplex on the market that will rake in another 150-200K
profit. Her
property got so expensive she could not afford the taxes
anymore. She
going to retire in Alabama, no retirement income taxes.


Your little sister sure gets around.

Scotty

US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

Just in the right place at the right time.


Joe

US ports... now housing prices
 

In article , DSK
wrote:

some areas in the Upper Peninsula in Michigan where the copper mines have
shut down and homes are on the block for a fraction of their build costs.
But net RE values in Michigan have continued to escalate with only minor
burbles in the upward curve. Adjusted for inflation, the aggregate land
values in Michigan are still ahead of the curve.


Like I said, if it happens to the other guy, it's an
unfortunate aberration from the general trend. If it happens
to *you* it's a major crash.


Martin Baxter wrote:
Indeed, taken as a whole you are correct. It's really simple supply and
demand, the population continues to grow, more people want land, and, as
Will Rogers said about land, "They aint makin' no more.".


They are in Holland.

Until the sea levels rise. Then there will be *different* waterfront.
So you see it's all the land developers' fault. Now they've sold all
the existing waterfront, they need to create more.

PDW

US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

In article . net,
Maxprop wrote:

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article et,
Maxprop wrote:

America has sold herself out by not having the foresight to change
with the changing world.

America can compete nicely with just about anyone, but some changes are
necessary. To compete with one's competitors, one must at the very least
emulate them. Better yet one should create a cost advantage for the same
quality, or create a quality advantage for the same cost. The US is
capable
of doing either, or both.

Yeah, but you don't. Instead you try to either convince your market
that an inferior prodict is somehow better via clever advertising,

No one with even a modicum of intelligence is buying that anymore. That's
why the companies building such products are struggling.

Some of the power tools coming out of China really aren't too bad for
the price. I bought a 4 1/2" angle grinder for $25. It vibrates a bit
more than my 5" Metabo but that one cost 10X the price. Ditto with
circular saws - I bought a cheapie to use with a metal cutting blade. I
figured I'd destroy the bearings on the job and I did. Better a $59 saw
than my good $200 one. Besides the cheapie had a 2 year home handyman
warranty so I just took it back & got another one. I was upfront on
what I'd being using it for; the shop guy said the distributor just
replaces them without question. That gives me some idea of the markup
between manufacturer and me.

There's a place for lower quality stuff provided the price reflects it.
You're right tho - people have woken up to the advertising cons.

And CEOs and other top-level execs are going to have to face the fact
that
multi-million dollar annual salaries and golden parachutes aren't
compatible
with the world economic markets of the day.

Yeah, I agree. The cost of screwing up a business needs to be brought
home to those responsible. At the moment it seems that the stock
holders lose, and employees lose, but senior management are immune due
to their payment structures.

It only takes a few years at $20 million per, plus a golden parachute to
feather one's nest rather plushly. Again, it sucks, but what's a mother to
do?

Make misfeasance a civil offence and strip them of the protection of
bankruptcy laws. You could apply a floor so that the law only applied
to people running companies with more than $X capitalisation and in
receipt of more than $Y salary/bonuses/stock options.

Possibly pay them in stock options exercisable only 5 years after they
leave the company.

Lots of possibilities to concentrate their minds.......

My take? Neither side will give an inch before the whole thing collapses
into a ruined American economy. I hope to be sailing somewhere in the
Caribbean with my money in offshore banks by then.

I plan on being in a nice 3rd World country with a good climate.
Fortunately for me NZ is only a week's sailing away. OTOH right where I
am is pretty good, too.

I bought a piece of just-off-the-beachfront land on a small island a year
ago. You have to understand that in the Caribbean, the higher up on the
hill, the more expensive and desirable the property. So mine is at the
bottom of the food chain, so to speak. But a small dwelling with a good,
solid roof will do me fine. And a boat--gotta have a boat.

This is why I returned to Oz from Arizona. Got my waterfront place on a
few acres, got a small boat and a bigger one is on the list. Moderate
sized nice city with good facilities is 30 minute drive away. Modern
large city is 1 hour flying time - Melbourne - or 2 hours flying time
to Sydney.

I built my own house and a big shed/barn for all the tools is next.

PDW

US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
Katy, with the exception of waterfront property, there is probably no
real
estate in the state of Michigan that's significantly overvalued. Even
the
waterfront property, probably. Agreed, the real estate market in
Michigan
is
fairly poor, but there's the economy again. Now soCal and soFla are
another
story entirely. I've read recently that some areas may be overvalued by
as
much as 40%.

John Cairns

Have a conversation with our realtor. He sends us gobs of articles
about it every week...I ahte realtors...wish we didn't have to use
one...

No such thing as overvalued or undervalued in a free market, except in
someone's perceptions. It's worth what you can sell it for, when you
want to or have to sell it. Period.

What a person paid for it is totally irrelevant.

I agree with you about changes in use driving up prices to where some
activities are no longer economic. Sydney, where I used to live, has
almost no industrial waterfront left because the yuppie scum all wanted
waterfront apartments and then didn't want their view disturbed by
industry, or their peace & quiet disturbed by power tools.

PDW

That's what these fellas are referring to, what the thing is ultimately
worth. Do a little googling and check out real estate prices in soCal.
Houses that would sell for 250k USD anywhere else in the country with the
exception of a few other bubble areas are selling for 750k or more. The
pundits are concerned about what the the 750k houses might be worth down the
road, when the bubble bursts, mainly due to the fact that much of the US
economy is driven by the housing/retail sector. There are a LOT of folks out
there that are apparently living the good life off of the equity in their
houses!

John Cairns

US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

John Said:
There are a LOT of folks out
there that are apparently living the good life off of the equity in
their
houses!



yelp .....and they better get while the gettings good, if it's not to
late.

Joe

US ports... now housing prices
 

"DSK" wrote in message
...
As long as there is a flood of rich retirees with loads of cash keep
believing the advertising, there will be a demand and prices will keep
going up.


Maxprop wrote:
I couldn't care less the reason for the appreciation. And you seem to be
overlooking a simple fact: my view of the Neuse (about 5 statute miles
wide at that point) and Pamlico Sound is spectacular. You call it swamp
land, I call it gorgeous. My neighbors apparently do as well, otherwise
they'd probably not be building half million dollar homes on their land.

Sounds like you're in Janeiro, not Oriental. Dawson's Landing?

Nope. I'm within the city limits of Oriental.

Ah yes, come and join the flood of Yankees complaining that that local
workers are lazy & unreliable & charge too much.

Do you hear that in New Bern? Haven't heard anything of the sort in
Oriental. The locals there are an eclectic bunch of my sort of people. No
snobs or yuppies--just bright, creative folk.


The "original premise" seems to be your advertising-driven conviction that
*your* land will go up astronomically in value forever, and that anybody
who says different is a corn-pone munchin' hillbilly.

For the record, my original premise was that in San Francisco, Miami, and
Chicago (examples, all) the property has risen in value with only momentary
burbles. The long-term trend is always up. My land was simply an example
to contradict something you brought up, which, for the life of me I can't
recall at this late post.


Really? That same waterfront land has been there for how long now? And the
upward trend just started when?

Recently. Coastal NC is roughly half way between NYC and Miami. It is the
last of the Atlantic coastal waterfront to experience the
investment/vacation/leisure boom. And Oriental is on the Neuse, not the
Atlantic. Those areas up river have always been slow to catch on, but they
do eventually. You could buy an acre of land on the Tred Avon River in MD
for about $10K just ten years ago. Today that same acre will cost you
several million dollars. The fact remains that there is a limited amount of
waterfront land. The prime places have been popular for years. The
out-of-the-way places, such as Oriental, have remained below the radar until
recently. That's why I bought there--because it was still relatively
inexpensive, and I have the foresight to see that, like those rivers and
streams off the Chesapeake, the rivers along Pamlico sound will one day be
priced above my ability to pay. You denigrate my purchase, and ridicule
those of us who are perceptive enough to see good RE investments. Beyond
being unkind, you're myopic as well. My investment money has tripled since
January '04. Has your stock portfolio done as well during the same period?
Let's check back in about a decade and see who's ahead then, too.

BTW you should explain how the Neuse River deposited that land there,
without any current and no silt load.

Fly over it sometime, Doug. It's obvious. Despite your belief to the
contrary, the vast majority of land being sold there is NOT filled swamp
land.


Actually, there is a lot of silt in the Neuse nowadays because of upstream
development... what I like to call the bulldozer races... but for all of
history up 'till now, that hasn't been the case.

Then the Neuse and all its tributaries must have just cut through the land
there.

Just a couple of years ago, my wife and I were driving out that way, and
saw a genuine tarpaper shack. A bad reminder of the old days, it's gone
now. When I was a kid, a number of my friends lived in tarpaper shacks and
houses with dirt floors. Now they are all gone & good riddance... to you I
suppose a mobile home is a sign of distressful poverty. To others it's a
big step up in the world.

It's a mistake to make such suppositions. The poverty I was referring to
are homes that have never seen paint or repairs, and undoubtedly belonged to
sharecroppers in the past, if not currently.

Poverty? Let's talk about the South being kept as a 3rd World country up
thru the 1970s, by outside financial & industrial interests, for the sake
of cheap labor & lack of environmental laws.

It's always someone else's fault, isn't it?

... Even more poignant is that the poverty (and the area income levels)
is irrelevant to such development.

Wrong again.

Developers seek out cheap land because that's where they can make the most
profit.

That's interesting logic, if flawed. The developments I've seen in NC, or
anyplace else for that matter, are typically in the more desirable places to
live. It's difficult to make much of a profit selling lots in undesirable
areas, where there is little or no aesthetic value, an ambience of economic
sluggishness, or both.

That's right, us ignorant hillbillies cain't 'ford no waterfront home nor
nuthin' like a fancy sailboat.

Understood. You buy trawlers. (sorry, couldn't resist)

Get back to me when you've owned land in the area half as long. There have
been cycles of booms & busts (as you pointed out) but no booms as big...
and that leads me to believe that the bust will also be big.

LOL. Okay, Doug. But here are a few facts for you. When we bought our
property, there were literally hundreds of parcels of land, from development
lots to large acreage plots, for sale. Today there are a mere handful. And
the prices have skyrocketed, and have done so since before I bought there.
I receive periodic calls and snail mail from realtors asking if I'd like to
sell. They claim to have buyers waiting for something to open up. 2200 sq.
ft homes (avg.) in similar waterfront subdivisions to mine were listing for
roughly $200K to $300K when we bought. Today the same type homes are going
for $400K to over $600K. Only one factor drives values to double in just a
couple of years: demand. There simply is less supply than demand for
waterfront property. And tidewater NC is still considered "very affordable"
by the RE gurus. I doubt that Oriental property will ever come close to
similar parcels/estates along the Chesapeake, NJ, RI, MA, CT, VA, FL, or WV.
It may not even reach the values of similar properties in Maine or Georgia,
but it most certainly will rise. I have not the slightest doubt about that.
Nor do the potential buyers or investors who would like me to sell them my
land. What's even more ridiculous is I couldn't care less. I like Oriental
and the locals, I like the river and the sound, I like the fishing industry
there. I like the sleepy ambience of the town and the surrounding area.
The only thing I fear is not a RE bust, rather a *boom* so substantial that
the small village character of Oriental disappears in a flurry of big money
and tourism. Oriental has far more to lose than to gain at this point, IMO.



Did you *buy* the entire state, or just a small part of an isolated
locale?

Okay, I'll acknowledge that you just don't seem to follow, and let it go at
that.

My point is that you are a bright shining example of thinking that if it
happens to somebody else, it's an isolated incident in an otherwise
positive trend... and that you also seem to think it can't possibly happen
to you.

Not even close. Economists speak daily about large-scale trends. They use
phrases like "the economic indicators all seem to be pointing to a solid
economy over the next quarter," and such. And during the next quarter,
there will be individuals who go broke, declare bankruptcy, lose their
personal possessions, end up on the street. So are the economists wrong?
Would you have them say instead, "the economic indicators all seem to be
pointing to a solid economy over the next quarter, however the Miller family
in Duluth will suffer a substantial setback when Bob loses his job at the
taconite mill, and Geoge and Henrietta Wellcamp of Denton, TX, will face
foreclosure . . ." blah, blah, blah. Even my example of Chicago isn't free
of such variations. While downtown RE has gone through the roof, the south
side properties have remained relatively stagnant. Some regions probably
have fallen in value. But that doesn't have sufficient force to effect the
net RE market trend. (whew, this is becoming cumbersome)

Really? It seems to me like I have agreed with a lot of what you said,
after being accused of being a xenophobic hillbilly and a Nazi. I am
merely pointing out the places where your "logic" takes a flying leap and
your facts are (shall we say) less veritable.

Jesus, Doug, did you, or did you not, see the Seinfeld episode, The Soup
Nazi????? It was quintessential Seinfeld, and the term "(something) Nazi"
is as common as dirt these days. When my wife takes the TV remote away from
me, she is The Remote Nazi. When I won't let the dogs roughhouse in the
living room, I'm The Canine Recreation Nazi. Get a life.

Just as well. Actually I have enjoyed discussing issues with you, but you
seem to get very upset when people disagree with you.

Despite what you and Mooron read into my posts, they are almost always typed
with a rather large grin. Nothing, absolutely nothing, about Usenet could
make me angry. Not even Binary Bill, albeit he's come close on an occasion
or two. I tire of putting smiley emoticons or a g behind my comments, but
you could literally assume they are there most of the time.

That said, this thread has deviated into the carnival of the ridiculous, I
think. You may have the last word, should you feel inclined to so do.

Max

US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

In article , John
Cairns wrote:

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
Katy, with the exception of waterfront property, there is probably no
real
estate in the state of Michigan that's significantly overvalued. Even
the
waterfront property, probably. Agreed, the real estate market in
Michigan
is
fairly poor, but there's the economy again. Now soCal and soFla are
another
story entirely. I've read recently that some areas may be overvalued by
as
much as 40%.

John Cairns

Have a conversation with our realtor. He sends us gobs of articles
about it every week...I ahte realtors...wish we didn't have to use
one...

No such thing as overvalued or undervalued in a free market, except in
someone's perceptions. It's worth what you can sell it for, when you
want to or have to sell it. Period.

What a person paid for it is totally irrelevant.

I agree with you about changes in use driving up prices to where some
activities are no longer economic. Sydney, where I used to live, has
almost no industrial waterfront left because the yuppie scum all wanted
waterfront apartments and then didn't want their view disturbed by
industry, or their peace & quiet disturbed by power tools.

PDW

That's what these fellas are referring to, what the thing is ultimately
worth. Do a little googling and check out real estate prices in soCal.
Houses that would sell for 250k USD anywhere else in the country with the
exception of a few other bubble areas are selling for 750k or more. The
pundits are concerned about what the the 750k houses might be worth down the
road, when the bubble bursts, mainly due to the fact that much of the US
economy is driven by the housing/retail sector. There are a LOT of folks out
there that are apparently living the good life off of the equity in their
houses!

Yeah, here, too, at least in the mainland capital cities. I ignore it
all. You have to live somewhere and the only people who make money out
of getting others to move house are the RE agents, the financial
institutions and the Govt. Pox on all 3 groups. They tell me my place
in Sydney is worth 10X what I paid for it. So what, it costs that much
to buy an equivalent place so where's the benefit to me? I bought my
land here in Tasmania right at the end of a decade long price slump.
That doesn't make me smart, just very lucky. It was good value to me
and that's all I cared about.

The only way to crystallise so-called wealth is to sell & move
somewhere cheaper. Some of my friends have done that, more are planning
on doing it. Few want to move to Tasmania, thank god. What we need here
is a real estate slump.

PDW

US ports... now housing prices
 

Sounds like you're in Janeiro, not Oriental. Dawson's Landing?


Maxprop wrote:
Nope. I'm within the city limits of Oriental.


Well, thye've expanded "city limits" considerable.



Ah yes, come and join the flood of Yankees complaining that that local
workers are lazy & unreliable & charge too much.


Do you hear that in New Bern?

I hear that pretty much everywhere, most recently in Chicago.


... Haven't heard anything of the sort in
Oriental. The locals there are an eclectic bunch of my sort of people. No
snobs or yuppies--just bright, creative folk.


Good.



The "original premise" seems to be your advertising-driven conviction that
*your* land will go up astronomically in value forever, and that anybody
who says different is a corn-pone munchin' hillbilly.


For the record, my original premise was that in San Francisco, Miami, and
Chicago (examples, all) the property has risen in value with only momentary
burbles.

Duh. Pretty much everything goes up, over the long run. Does
property go up faster than everything else, always & always?


... The long-term trend is always up.

It is if you extend "long-term" to encompass enough time.


... My land was simply an example
to contradict something you brought up, which, for the life of me I can't
recall at this late post.

Then why do you feel you have to contradict it? It's been
clear to me, all along, theat you really don't have much
idea of most of what I'm talking about (yet you claim to
have aced Econ 101).

DSK

US ports... now housing prices
 

"DSK" wrote
Duh. Pretty much everything goes up, over the long run. Does
property go up faster than everything else, always & always?

Not always, but generally, due to inflation and population growth. The latest
"bubble" was predictable when folks with $million and $10 million incomes found
themselves with lower taxes and more dispoable income.