US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

"katy" wrote in message
...
Peter Wiley wrote:
In article , katy
wrote:


Maxprop wrote:

Your point is correct. The vast majority of goods sold in the USA are
of foreign manufacture now. I'm always a bit amazed when I discover the
product I've bought is of local manufacture. Last figures I saw said
the trade deficit between the US and China was something like 78-22.
One only has to watch container ships entering and leaving San Francisco
Bay to see this--the incoming are loaded and way down on their
waterlines, while the departing vessels have empty containers and are
riding high.

Max


The major problem is that American manufactureres ignored the fact that
this was going to happen. When Mr Sails worked for Steelcase, his team
dragged in a desk made by HON to a presentation and indicated that that
was the future of office furniture and that tghey should eatablish a
competitive line. But the PTB's said "absolutely not". We would be
lowering our standards. Problem was, though, that unless they bought
used, the average small business owner, which is still the heart of
America but is fading fast, could not afford Steelcase furniture. The
average doctor could not decorate his waiting room with Steelcase
designs. So they ignored the American public, holding out for governemnt
contracts. And then 9/11 hit and it was all over. America has sold
herself out by not having the foresight to change with the changing
world.


Bingo. We've been running this argument over on rec.crafts.metalworking
for years now. There are basically no US manufacturers of small
precision tools like lathes, mills etc left. South Bend didn't update
its lathe design in 50 years and that wasn't because it was perfect.

I have a mix of US and British machinery and I like it. But it's all
old. When I go to buy a new lathe or milling machine for my people at
work, I buy one made in Taiwan or China. They aren't as elegant or as
well finished, but they cut metal just fine and the accuracy is
satisfactory.

It didn't have to be that way, but it is.

Ditto for vehicles. Almost nobody in Australia would buy an imported US
made vehicle in preference to a Japanese or even Korean made one. PDW

We had a KIA and our son drives KIA's...junk cars....give me a GM
anyday...or even a Ford....

Junk? Is that why Kia and Hyundai offer 100K mile/10year warranties, and
the US cars give you 3?

Max

US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article , katy
wrote:

Peter Wiley wrote:

Ditto for vehicles. Almost nobody in Australia would buy an imported US
made vehicle in preference to a Japanese or even Korean made one.

PDW

We had a KIA and our son drives KIA's...junk cars....give me a GM
anyday...or even a Ford....

Give me a Subaru, Toyota, Mitsubishi etc. Korean cars here seem to be
pretty reliable and have long warranties. After that, you've said it
all.

My daughter and son-in-law bought a Ford Explorer about 8 years back. The
engine, which they properly and carefully maintained via company maintenance
schedules, gave up after 60K miles--failed main bearings. Ford offered to
pay less than $1000 toward the purchase of a new engine. The kids scrapped
the vehicle. Ford now tops their "never again" list.

My second last Toyota pickup had in excess of 200K miles when I received $2K
for it in trade on a new one. The engine ran perfectly, the compression was
high on three cylinders and acceptable on one, and it burned less than a
quart of oil every 5K miles.

Max

US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

"Mys Terry" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 05:37:57 GMT, "Maxprop" wrote:


"Mys Terry" wrote in message
. ..
On 27 Feb 2006 19:31:02 -0600, Dave wrote:

On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 00:59:32 GMT, Mys Terry
said:

I live in Connecticut. There are many small working farms in my area
even
though
I am also within a roughly 30 minute drive of several pretty large
cities. This
is not Wyoming, it's crowded, incredibly expensive, Connecticut. My
back
yard
neighbor is a working horse farm. Just today I heard from someone who
is
STARTING a new small farm within a couple of miles of my house.

Hey, I keep my boat there, and we had a house in SE CT for about 15
years.
I
certainly love the Chester and Hamburg fairs, and used to also love the
Madison Sat. night auctions. But much though I regret it, I think my
statement is nevertheless accurate.

Last time I checked, there were STILL more cows than people in Vermont.

Not since the late 60s, actually.

http://www.outdoorjapan.com/features...grounds-1.html

Look under "Dairy Farming."

Max


Yes, I ALWAYS use a japanese travel article to verify the census figures
for
Vermont. They are usually written by one person, and that insures that
everything they spout is factual.

I'd trust them any day over you, Billy. It's bad enough you pass on bogus
info, but info not valid for over 40 years???

Hell, my grandparents, now dead for over twenty years, told me that Vt. had
fewer cows than people long before they passed on.

Max

US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

"Scotty" wrote in message
...

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 02:44:36 GMT, Mys Terry

said:

Last time I checked, there were STILL more cows than
people in Vermont.

I suspect it won't be long before they're outnumbered by
former New Yorkers.

Yeah, most of them lawyers...there goes the neighborhood.

Some are guys like Ben and Jerry, who claim to make ice cream in VT, but
really churn the stuff out by the boatload right in good ol' NY.

Max

US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..

No such thing as overvalued or undervalued in a free market, except in
someone's perceptions. It's worth what you can sell it for, when you
want to or have to sell it. Period.

There is a lot of rhetoric here now about "overvalued" real estate. The
term is perhaps a misnomer, but it refers to what property will be worth
when the market cools and the prices readjust. This happens in places like
San Francisco, Miami, and Chicago from time to time. My brother's home in
SF, which he purchased in '74 for $58K, appreciated to over $400K, and then
readjusted in a slump to around $275K back in the 90s. Now it is over $850K
and still rising, but he strongly expects a readjustment somewhere down the
road. So the market gurus speak over "overvaluation." Ultimately, however,
the trend is always up over the long haul. That's why interest-only loans
are dispensed like candy in such areas these days.

Max

US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

Maxprop wrote:
"katy" wrote in message
...

Maxprop wrote:

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
om...


In article . net,
Maxprop wrote:



"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
news:270220062239050541%peter_d_wiley@hotmail .com...




So - tell me why you own a French yacht when there are so many more
expensive and inferior US made ones available.


She bought her boat used, Pete. It was the best boat available in her
price
range at the time.

Oh, I don't doubt it. Point is, tho, that Katy coulda bought a new US
made boat for a higher price and thereby supported US industry. It
might have been a smaller boat, or a worse equipped boat, or whatever,
of course.


They had just sold their smaller, US-built boat, and another smaller
US-built boat before that, IIRC. Chanteuse was a substantial size
upgrade.

27 feet to 30 ft and 4 inches is a substantial size difference? And both
the previous boats were very old...the upkeep on them was horrendous and
the 27 had an atomic 4 that was going to need to be replaced...Neither had
any great value and the 22' sailed for crap (shoal draft)...we upgraded to
a boat with diesel and a wheel (27 was a tiller boat and Mr Sails has had
rotator cuff surgery...)


Sorry. I was just being kind.


The major problem is that American manufactureres ignored the fact that
this was going to happen.


American manufacturing only? Doesn't American labor play a role in this?


When Mr Sails worked for Steelcase, his team dragged in a desk made by HON
to a presentation and indicated that that was the future of office
furniture and that tghey should eatablish a competitive line. But the
PTB's said "absolutely not". We would be lowering our standards. Problem
was, though, that unless they bought used, the average small business
owner, which is still the heart of America but is fading fast, could not
afford Steelcase furniture. The average doctor could not decorate his
waiting room with Steelcase designs. So they ignored the American public,
holding out for governemnt contracts. And then 9/11 hit and it was all
over. America has sold herself out by not having the foresight to change
with the changing world.


America can compete nicely with just about anyone, but some changes are
necessary. To compete with one's competitors, one must at the very least
emulate them. Better yet one should create a cost advantage for the same
quality, or create a quality advantage for the same cost. The US is capable
of doing either, or both. But labor is going to have to recognize some
major realignment, along with top-heavy industry. The $30 per hour jobs are
vanishing faster than spotted owls, and until organized labor acknowledges
that low-paying jobs are better than NO jobs, the situation will exacerbate.
And CEOs and other top-level execs are going to have to face the fact that
multi-million dollar annual salaries and golden parachutes aren't compatible
with the world economic markets of the day.

My take? Neither side will give an inch before the whole thing collapses
into a ruined American economy. I hope to be sailing somewhere in the
Caribbean with my money in offshore banks by then.

Max


Yep, Unions helped build manufacturing in the US and now they're
tearing it apart....

US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

Maxprop wrote:
"katy" wrote in message
...

Peter Wiley wrote:

In article , katy
wrote:



Maxprop wrote:


Your point is correct. The vast majority of goods sold in the USA are
of foreign manufacture now. I'm always a bit amazed when I discover the
product I've bought is of local manufacture. Last figures I saw said
the trade deficit between the US and China was something like 78-22.
One only has to watch container ships entering and leaving San Francisco
Bay to see this--the incoming are loaded and way down on their
waterlines, while the departing vessels have empty containers and are
riding high.

Max


The major problem is that American manufactureres ignored the fact that
this was going to happen. When Mr Sails worked for Steelcase, his team
dragged in a desk made by HON to a presentation and indicated that that
was the future of office furniture and that tghey should eatablish a
competitive line. But the PTB's said "absolutely not". We would be
lowering our standards. Problem was, though, that unless they bought
used, the average small business owner, which is still the heart of
America but is fading fast, could not afford Steelcase furniture. The
average doctor could not decorate his waiting room with Steelcase
designs. So they ignored the American public, holding out for governemnt
contracts. And then 9/11 hit and it was all over. America has sold
herself out by not having the foresight to change with the changing
world.


Bingo. We've been running this argument over on rec.crafts.metalworking
for years now. There are basically no US manufacturers of small
precision tools like lathes, mills etc left. South Bend didn't update
its lathe design in 50 years and that wasn't because it was perfect.

I have a mix of US and British machinery and I like it. But it's all
old. When I go to buy a new lathe or milling machine for my people at
work, I buy one made in Taiwan or China. They aren't as elegant or as
well finished, but they cut metal just fine and the accuracy is
satisfactory.

It didn't have to be that way, but it is.

Ditto for vehicles. Almost nobody in Australia would buy an imported US
made vehicle in preference to a Japanese or even Korean made one. PDW

We had a KIA and our son drives KIA's...junk cars....give me a GM
anyday...or even a Ford....


Junk? Is that why Kia and Hyundai offer 100K mile/10year warranties, and
the US cars give you 3?

Max


Wait until you go to use the warranty...it's very exclusive..

US ports... now housing prices
 

wrote
.... When your farm is making less and less profit and some
developer comes along and offers you a bushel of money for it, you take it
and to hell with the farm.

Yep. Why wouldn't they?


....The economy in MI is at an alltime low and people are
leaving the state in droves because of the job market not being able to
support the population. We are in a fortunate position where we do not
have to make a low sale on our house just to get out from under it, but
many in the state will be taking big losses, especially those who bought
the over-inflated pricey real estate in the first place. The whole thing
is a sad situation...onl;y people who benefit are the devlopers and the
realtoes....

I think some of them are going to be pretty hard hit too. It
might take a while for the effect to 'trickle down' (or is
it up?) but rest assured that they'll suffer too.

John Cairns wrote:
Katy, with the exception of waterfront property, there is
probably no real
estate in the state of Michigan that's significantly
overvalued. Even the
waterfront property, probably. Agreed, the real estate
market in Michigan is
fairly poor, but there's the economy again.

Well, if what Katysails says about the economy is true, then
there will be nothing to support high real estate prices.
People have to be able to earn enough money to afford their
mortgage, or they 1- sell for whatever they can get or 2-
just walk away (default). If enough of this happens, then
banks start to feel the squeeze.

..... Now soCal and soFla are another
story entirely. I've read recently that some areas may be
overvalued by as
much as 40%.

Optimist.

It all depends on a few highly subjective factors. What if
everybody who is planning to sell their house in South
Florida (or Michigan) decides to just wait a few weeks? What
if everybody who was thinking of buying decides they want to
go ahead? It's the supply/demand thing.

Now reverse the situation, with speculators. When lots of
people are trying to sell, some of whom are in a hurry, the
market can go into free fall. Prices literally hit the bottom.

And yes, it can happen here. Do I think it will? No, because
the worst-case scenario is rarely what occurs.


"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
No such thing as overvalued or undervalued in a free market, except in
someone's perceptions. It's worth what you can sell it for, when you
want to or have to sell it. Period.


Yep again.
But in this case there are some strong influencing factors.
Once a local housing market starts to drop, then banks
become ticklish about putting up big mortgages in that
market. If there are any speculators (and the entry of
speculators into *any* market is a bad sign) they all want
to sell in a hurry while they can still get their money out.
This puts downward pressure on a market that may be
otherwise normal & healthy... it will recover but will take
time.

And as John Maynard Keynes once remarked, "In the long run,
everything comes out fine, except that we'll all be dead by
then."

Maxprop wrote:
There is a lot of rhetoric here now about "overvalued" real estate. The
term is perhaps a misnomer, but it refers to what property will be worth
when the market cools and the prices readjust. This happens in places like
San Francisco, Miami, and Chicago from time to time.

Clue: it happens *everywhere* from time to time. Supply and
demand are in a constant state of seeking equilibrium.

... My brother's home in
SF, which he purchased in '74 for $58K, appreciated to over $400K, and then
readjusted in a slump to around $275K back in the 90s. Now it is over $850K
and still rising, but he strongly expects a readjustment somewhere down the
road. So the market gurus speak over "overvaluation."

And people who have strong reasons to sell their homes
during these periods of "correction" get hammered.

It's not a crash if it only happens to the other guy, right?

... Ultimately, however,
the trend is always up over the long haul.

Uh-huh.

Did the Tooth Fairy tell you so?

Did it ever occur to you that prices seek a level relative
to inflation? Did it ever occur to you that some goods &
services experience a permanent decline in demand?

If you think that long term trends are *always* up,
immutably & indubitably, then I have a great investment for
you in Acme Buggy Whip Co stock.

... That's why interest-only loans
are dispensed like candy in such areas these days.


Great idea: literally gambling with your home. Poker is for
wimps!

Gee this thread has come a long way. Started out at the
ports & worked it's way inland, I guess.

DSK

US ports... now housing prices
 

On Wed, 01 Mar 2006 08:43:16 -0500, DSK wrote:

wrote
.... When your farm is making less and less profit and some
developer comes along and offers you a bushel of money for it, you take it
and to hell with the farm.

Yep. Why wouldn't they?


....The economy in MI is at an alltime low and people are
leaving the state in droves because of the job market not being able to
support the population. We are in a fortunate position where we do not
have to make a low sale on our house just to get out from under it, but
many in the state will be taking big losses, especially those who bought
the over-inflated pricey real estate in the first place. The whole thing
is a sad situation...onl;y people who benefit are the devlopers and the
realtoes....



Happened to me in Oklahoma when crude and NG prices tanked in the mid
eighties. I was fortunate to more or less break even selling my house
that I had bought brand new and lived in for eight years. Many of my
friends, neighbors and people I had worked with were carrying money to
the closings to get out from under.

My Mother in law has waterfront in Florida. Value has doubled each of
the last two years. And it is real because the house is not for sale
but she has people knocking on the door making offers. It is not a
good thing unless you are flipping real estate. If you just want to
live there eventually the taxes and insurance will drive you out. I
feel sorry for people who retired on a fixed income and their dream
was to live near the water in Florida. Even though Florida limits
the amount of tax increase per year for a homstead, I expect it will
eventually drive them out.

Frank

US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

"katy" wrote in message
...

Yep, Unions helped build manufacturing in the US and now they're tearing
it apart....

But not all by themselves--not by any means. They're getting plenty of help
from greedy execs and our government, too.

Max

US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

"katy" wrote in message
...
Maxprop wrote:

Junk? Is that why Kia and Hyundai offer 100K mile/10year warranties, and
the US cars give you 3?

Wait until you go to use the warranty...it's very exclusive..

They all are, even domestic warranties. I've had no problems with Toyota
warranties. Then again Toyotas don't seem to break very often.

Max

US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

Maxprop wrote:
"katy" wrote in message
...

Maxprop wrote:


Junk? Is that why Kia and Hyundai offer 100K mile/10year warranties, and
the US cars give you 3?


Wait until you go to use the warranty...it's very exclusive..


They all are, even domestic warranties. I've had no problems with Toyota
warranties. Then again Toyotas don't seem to break very often.

Max


KIA's do....and it's like riding in a tin can...my sister has one
that she lets her teenagers drive...she won't get into it unless
there's absolutely no choice becasue she says it aggravates her
arthritis!

US ports... now housing prices
 

"DSK" wrote in message
. ..

Clue: it happens *everywhere* from time to time. Supply and demand are in
a constant state of seeking equilibrium.

Viewed pedantically, yes--that's true. From a more temporal viewpoint, the
hot real estate markets are where the term is being bandied about most
frequently. I doubt seriously if the supply and demand of land in Bugsquat,
NC, is of much concern to anyone beyond the locals.


... My brother's home in SF, which he purchased in '74 for $58K,
appreciated to over $400K, and then readjusted in a slump to around $275K
back in the 90s. Now it is over $850K and still rising, but he strongly
expects a readjustment somewhere down the road. So the market gurus
speak over "overvaluation."


And people who have strong reasons to sell their homes during these
periods of "correction" get hammered.

Especially those banks who've lent money on interest-only, nothing down
loans. But ultimately they tend to make out okay. They just hold the
repo'd property until the next RE boom takes the prices higher.


It's not a crash if it only happens to the other guy, right?

... Ultimately, however, the trend is always up over the long haul.

Uh-huh.

Did the Tooth Fairy tell you so?

Did it ever occur to you that prices seek a level relative to inflation?

Before sticking your thumbs behind your suspenders and looking smug, you
might wish to check out the history of RE values in San Francisco, for
example. The net price trend there has outstripped inflation manifold for
the past quarter century and shows no signs of slowing. Same in the other
two markets I mentioned. No one is talking generalities here, so save the
homespun economics lesson for your neighborhood kids. Bore them, not us.

Did it ever occur to you that some goods & services experience a permanent
decline in demand?

You mean like land values in the impoverished regions of NC, which encompass
about 80% of the state?

If you think that long term trends are *always* up, immutably &
indubitably, then I have a great investment for you in Acme Buggy Whip Co
stock.

Get with the program, Doug. Who's talking about stock? And I'm not talking
about RE in Buggy Whip, NC, either. I'm talking about San Francisco, Miami,
and Chicago, like I stated in the first place when you rudely had to open
mouth-insert foot and proclaim, while beating your chest as you are wont to
do regularly, that the phenomenon I was describing happened in ****kick, NC,
too. But as long as you raised the point, can you show me that the Dow
Jones Industrials average is lower now than, say 20 years ago? Or 50 years.
How about real estate in general--can you show me any state in the country
where RE values are lower than they were 20 or 50 years ago? You really
should give your statements some thought before citing something your Econ
101 professor told you years ago.

... That's why interest-only loans are dispensed like candy in such
areas these days.


Great idea: literally gambling with your home. Poker is for wimps!

Gee this thread has come a long way. Started out at the ports & worked
it's way inland, I guess.

That surprises you? Are you The Thread Nazi, the one who demands that
threads remain on track in Usenet?

Max

US ports... now housing prices
 

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
...

My Mother in law has waterfront in Florida. Value has doubled each of
the last two years. And it is real because the house is not for sale
but she has people knocking on the door making offers. It is not a
good thing unless you are flipping real estate. If you just want to
live there eventually the taxes and insurance will drive you out.

I thought Florida had passed a law similar to California's Prop 51, which
freezes property taxes at the buy-in level. Not true?

I
feel sorry for people who retired on a fixed income and their dream
was to live near the water in Florida. Even though Florida limits
the amount of tax increase per year for a homstead, I expect it will
eventually drive them out.

Guess I should have read on--so FL *can* raise property taxes, but at a
fixed rate for homesteads. Hmmm. Not good for those on fixed incomes.
Then again the real estate moguls control that state, lock, stock, and
barrel, and increasing property taxes may be their way of forcing folks out
of their homes, which puts them on the market for them to sell profitably.
No one ever accused FL of being altruistic w/r/t real estate. One has only
to look at all the coastal wetlands that got backfilled between the 60s and
the present, all in the name of creating canals for more "waterfront"
property.

Max

US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

"Joe" wrote in message
oups.com...

Maxprop wrote:
"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..

No such thing as overvalued or undervalued in a free market, except in
someone's perceptions. It's worth what you can sell it for, when you
want to or have to sell it. Period.

There is a lot of rhetoric here now about "overvalued" real estate. The
term is perhaps a misnomer, but it refers to what property will be worth
when the market cools and the prices readjust. This happens in places
like
San Francisco, Miami, and Chicago from time to time. My brother's home
in
SF, which he purchased in '74 for $58K, appreciated to over $400K, and
then
readjusted in a slump to around $275K back in the 90s. Now it is over
$850K
and still rising, but he strongly expects a readjustment somewhere down
the
road. So the market gurus speak over "overvaluation." Ultimately,
however,
the trend is always up over the long haul. That's why interest-only
loans
are dispensed like candy in such areas these days.

Max

My little siter bought a house in Cape Coral Fla. 4 yrs ago for 225K.
She sold it last week for 885K. Almost a 400% profit. She still has a
duplex on the market that will rake in another 150-200K profit. Her
property got so expensive she could not afford the taxes anymore. She
going to retire in Alabama, no retirement income taxes.

That's a sad testimony to the ills of a boom real estate market where
property taxes aren't adequately controlled. I'm sure the RE companies
relish the idea of homeowners being forced out of their homes, which
generates a continuous flow of properties to the market. For the
individual, however, their dream of living out their retirement years in the
home of their dreams becomes a pipe dream. I guess there is some
compensation in that they can move to Mudwallow, Somewhere, and own the
nicest home in town.

Max

US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

He must not live in a very good neighborhood. :-) That's cheap for SF these
days. Well, not cheap, but not the top of the market either.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Maxprop" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..

No such thing as overvalued or undervalued in a free market, except in
someone's perceptions. It's worth what you can sell it for, when you
want to or have to sell it. Period.

There is a lot of rhetoric here now about "overvalued" real estate. The
term is perhaps a misnomer, but it refers to what property will be worth
when the market cools and the prices readjust. This happens in places
like San Francisco, Miami, and Chicago from time to time. My brother's
home in SF, which he purchased in '74 for $58K, appreciated to over $400K,
and then readjusted in a slump to around $275K back in the 90s. Now it is
over $850K and still rising, but he strongly expects a readjustment
somewhere down the road. So the market gurus speak over "overvaluation."
Ultimately, however, the trend is always up over the long haul. That's
why interest-only loans are dispensed like candy in such areas these days.

Max

US ports... now housing prices
 

I think you're talking about Prop 13.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Maxprop" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
...

My Mother in law has waterfront in Florida. Value has doubled each of
the last two years. And it is real because the house is not for sale
but she has people knocking on the door making offers. It is not a
good thing unless you are flipping real estate. If you just want to
live there eventually the taxes and insurance will drive you out.

I thought Florida had passed a law similar to California's Prop 51, which
freezes property taxes at the buy-in level. Not true?

I
feel sorry for people who retired on a fixed income and their dream
was to live near the water in Florida. Even though Florida limits
the amount of tax increase per year for a homstead, I expect it will
eventually drive them out.

Guess I should have read on--so FL *can* raise property taxes, but at a
fixed rate for homesteads. Hmmm. Not good for those on fixed incomes.
Then again the real estate moguls control that state, lock, stock, and
barrel, and increasing property taxes may be their way of forcing folks
out of their homes, which puts them on the market for them to sell
profitably. No one ever accused FL of being altruistic w/r/t real estate.
One has only to look at all the coastal wetlands that got backfilled
between the 60s and the present, all in the name of creating canals for
more "waterfront" property.

Max

US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

Dave, you're trying to have conversation with a guy who pretends to be
someone else who is a woman, and then pretends to be a guy. It's really
quite confusing and pretty pathetic. Thought you should know.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 01 Mar 2006 11:57:00 GMT, Mys Terry
said:

It's bad enough you pass on bogus
info, but info not valid for over 40 years???


You have yet to prove that what I said was invalid for even 40 minutes.

What source confirms your claim that VT has more cows than people?

US ports... now housing prices
 

Clue: it happens *everywhere* from time to time. Supply and demand are in
a constant state of seeking equilibrium.


Maxprop wrote:
Viewed pedantically, yes--that's true. From a more temporal viewpoint, the
hot real estate markets are where the term is being bandied about most
frequently. I doubt seriously if the supply and demand of land in Bugsquat,
NC, is of much concern to anyone beyond the locals.


OTOH if land less than 20 miles from Bugsquat NC is being
aggressively marketed to outsiders at huge prices, then all
three parties (Bugsquat natives, outside buyers, and
sellers) all have an interest in the situation.

I'm sure this makes you angry, since you are one of the
outsiders who bought high-priced land less than a stone's
throw from Bugsquat.



... My brother's home in SF, which he purchased in '74 for $58K,
appreciated to over $400K, and then readjusted in a slump to around $275K
back in the 90s. Now it is over $850K and still rising, but he strongly
expects a readjustment somewhere down the road. So the market gurus
speak over "overvaluation."



And people who have strong reasons to sell their homes during these
periods of "correction" get hammered.


Especially those banks who've lent money on interest-only, nothing down
loans. But ultimately they tend to make out okay. They just hold the
repo'd property until the next RE boom takes the prices higher.


It's that long-term thing again. And banks do fold from time
to time.... or get bailed out by the taxpayer.



Did it ever occur to you that prices seek a level relative to inflation?


Before sticking your thumbs behind your suspenders and looking smug, you
might wish to check out the history of RE values in San Francisco, for
example. The net price trend there has outstripped inflation manifold for
the past quarter century and shows no signs of slowing. Same in the other
two markets I mentioned. No one is talking generalities here, so save the
homespun economics lesson for your neighborhood kids. Bore them, not us.


And what is the trend for local wages over the same period,
hmm? What is the overall cost of living relative to other areas?

As long as it is a desirable place to live, real estate will
do well. When does that trend reverse?




Did it ever occur to you that some goods & services experience a permanent
decline in demand?


You mean like land values in the impoverished regions of NC, which encompass
about 80% of the state?


??

You don't know much about current economic trends, do you.
NC is actually doing pretty well, relatively. And we
appreciate the influx of money for swamp land, thank you.


If you think that long term trends are *always* up, immutably &
indubitably, then I have a great investment for you in Acme Buggy Whip Co
stock.


Get with the program, Doug. Who's talking about stock?

I am. Aren't you paying attention?

The value of a stock is tied to the productivity &
profitability of the company, which in turn is tied to the
wages & benefits it can offer it's employees, which is tied
to what those employees can pay for local real estate.




...And I'm not talking
about RE in Buggy Whip, NC, either. I'm talking about San Francisco, Miami,
and Chicago, like I stated in the first place when you rudely had to open
mouth-insert foot and proclaim, while beating your chest as you are wont to
do regularly, that the phenomenon I was describing happened in ****kick, NC,
too.

It's also happening in a number of other places. Maybe you'd
rather pretend that only city slickers like yourself (who
somehow can't seem to follow a topic, and pay money for
swampland) can understand?


... But as long as you raised the point, can you show me that the Dow
Jones Industrials average is lower now than, say 20 years ago? Or 50 years.

Easy enough to look it up. There have been long periods when
the stock marcket indexes were flat or downward.


How about real estate in general--can you show me any state in the country
where RE values are lower than they were 20 or 50 years ago?

You have missed the point. Is the value higher or lower
*relative to what*?

... You really
should give your statements some thought before citing something your Econ
101 professor told you years ago.


Maybe I see what's irritating you. Did you flunk Econ 101?
Or maybe a cute girl in that class turned you down for date?

Sorry to bring up painful memories.


Gee this thread has come a long way. Started out at the ports & worked
it's way inland, I guess.


That surprises you? Are you The Thread Nazi, the one who demands that
threads remain on track in Usenet?


No, I just give them a title which actually reflects what is
being talked about.

DSK

US ports... now housing prices
 

Capt. JG wrote:
I think you're talking about Prop 13.



He's got it confused with Area 51

DSK

US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

"Maxprop" wrote in message
nk.net...

My daughter and son-in-law bought a Ford Explorer about 8
years back. The
engine, which they properly and carefully maintained via
company maintenance
schedules, gave up after 60K miles--failed main bearings.
Ford offered to
pay less than $1000 toward the purchase of a new engine.
The kids scrapped
the vehicle. Ford now tops their "never again" list.


What year? My '91 Explorer, with 110K on runs fine.

Scotty

US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
news:010320060011210810% Bingo. We've been running this
argument over on rec.crafts.metalworking
for years now. There are basically no US manufacturers of
small
precision tools like lathes, mills etc left. South Bend
didn't update
its lathe design in 50 years and that wasn't because it
was perfect.

I have a mix of US and British machinery and I like it.
But it's all
old. When I go to buy a new lathe or milling machine for
my people at
work, I buy one made in Taiwan or China. They aren't as
elegant or as
well finished, but they cut metal just fine and the
accuracy is
satisfactory.


Rockwell, a local plant made small printing presses
($500,000 a piece ) . The Japs copied them and offered them
for half price. Customers told me that the USA press was
made better, more precise, & lasted longer but for half
price, if you didn't run them as hard, the Jap copy did the
job okay.

Scotty

US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

We had a KIA and our son drives KIA's...junk cars....give
me a GM
anyday...or even a Ford....


Scotty wrote:
Both my Son and Daughter own KIAs. They couldn't afford much
more and I told them with the long warranty they were better
than a used 'Merican car. I also told them I was tired of
working on cars.


Me too. 'Cept in my case, I was also runnin' out of
cinderblocks ;)

DSK

US ports... now housing prices
 

DSK wrote:


How about real estate in general--can you show me any state in the country
where RE values are lower than they were 20 or 50 years ago?

I'll bet there are lots of places along Rte 66, (after adjustment for
inflation).

Cheers
Marty

US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

Read what I said again, and this time really CONCENTRATE.

I don't claim that Vermont has more cows than people. In fact Vermont
overall has NEVER had more cows than people. NEVER!


Dave wrote:
Perhaps you could then explicate further what you meant in Message-ID:
when you said:


Last time I checked, there were STILL more cows than people in Vermont.

And Bitty Bill gets mad when people think he's a sockpuppet
for Bob/Jax

DSK

US ports... now housing prices
 

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
I think you're talking about Prop 13.

Yup, thanks.

Max

US ports... now housing prices
 

"DSK" wrote in message
.. .
Capt. JG wrote:
I think you're talking about Prop 13.



He's got it confused with Area 51

I've been afflicted with avian flu H5N1.

Max

US ports... now housing prices
 

"katy" wrote in message
...
Maxprop wrote:
"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
...


My Mother in law has waterfront in Florida. Value has doubled each of
the last two years. And it is real because the house is not for sale
but she has people knocking on the door making offers. It is not a
good thing unless you are flipping real estate. If you just want to
live there eventually the taxes and insurance will drive you out.


I thought Florida had passed a law similar to California's Prop 51, which
freezes property taxes at the buy-in level. Not true?


I
feel sorry for people who retired on a fixed income and their dream
was to live near the water in Florida. Even though Florida limits
the amount of tax increase per year for a homstead, I expect it will
eventually drive them out.


Guess I should have read on--so FL *can* raise property taxes, but at a
fixed rate for homesteads. Hmmm. Not good for those on fixed incomes.
Then again the real estate moguls control that state, lock, stock, and
barrel, and increasing property taxes may be their way of forcing folks
out of their homes, which puts them on the market for them to sell
profitably. No one ever accused FL of being altruistic w/r/t real estate.
One has only to look at all the coastal wetlands that got backfilled
between the 60s and the present, all in the name of creating canals for
more "waterfront" property.

Max
And it's a renewable resource to boot. One massive hurricane like
Katrina, and whammo, they get to start all over again.

The builders love it. So do the shyster, fly-by-night remodeling types.

Max

US ports... now housing prices
 

On Wed, 01 Mar 2006 20:16:02 GMT, "Maxprop"
wrote:


"katy" wrote in message
...
Maxprop wrote:
"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
...


My Mother in law has waterfront in Florida. Value has doubled each of
the last two years. And it is real because the house is not for sale
but she has people knocking on the door making offers. It is not a
good thing unless you are flipping real estate. If you just want to
live there eventually the taxes and insurance will drive you out.


I thought Florida had passed a law similar to California's Prop 51, which
freezes property taxes at the buy-in level. Not true?


I
feel sorry for people who retired on a fixed income and their dream
was to live near the water in Florida. Even though Florida limits
the amount of tax increase per year for a homstead, I expect it will
eventually drive them out.


Guess I should have read on--so FL *can* raise property taxes, but at a
fixed rate for homesteads. Hmmm. Not good for those on fixed incomes.
Then again the real estate moguls control that state, lock, stock, and
barrel, and increasing property taxes may be their way of forcing folks
out of their homes, which puts them on the market for them to sell
profitably. No one ever accused FL of being altruistic w/r/t real estate.
One has only to look at all the coastal wetlands that got backfilled
between the 60s and the present, all in the name of creating canals for
more "waterfront" property.

Max
And it's a renewable resource to boot. One massive hurricane like
Katrina, and whammo, they get to start all over again.

The builders love it. So do the shyster, fly-by-night remodeling types.

Max


Actually each hurricane seems initiate code creation that improves the
chances of a structure surviving the next one. My mother in laws
place was totaled during a hurricane about ten years ago. walking
down the beach I noticed that all the homes that had been built to the
new coastal codes survived with minimal damage and all like hers that
had been built before the coastal codes were pretty much toast. Her
replacement home is built to the new codes and has gone through a
couple of minor hurricanes with no damage.

Frank

US ports... now housing prices
 

I left my aluminun foil hat in the car...

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"DSK" wrote in message
.. .
Capt. JG wrote:
I think you're talking about Prop 13.



He's got it confused with Area 51

DSK

US ports... now housing prices
 

Don't joke. I'm just getting over the Feel-like-bird-crap flu.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Maxprop" wrote in message
ink.net...

"DSK" wrote in message
.. .
Capt. JG wrote:
I think you're talking about Prop 13.



He's got it confused with Area 51

I've been afflicted with avian flu H5N1.

Max

US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

My jeep has 125K and runs fine.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 1 Mar 2006 13:26:56 -0500, "Scotty" said:

What year? My '91 Explorer, with 110K on runs fine.

Hey, so does my '89 Acclaim. But it's only got 74K on it.

US ports... now housing prices
 

"DSK" wrote in message
.. .
Clue: it happens *everywhere* from time to time. Supply and demand are in
a constant state of seeking equilibrium.


Maxprop wrote:
Viewed pedantically, yes--that's true. From a more temporal viewpoint,
the hot real estate markets are where the term is being bandied about
most frequently. I doubt seriously if the supply and demand of land in
Bugsquat, NC, is of much concern to anyone beyond the locals.


OTOH if land less than 20 miles from Bugsquat NC is being aggressively
marketed to outsiders at huge prices, then all three parties (Bugsquat
natives, outside buyers, and sellers) all have an interest in the
situation.

Awfully big *if.*

I'm sure this makes you angry, since you are one of the outsiders who
bought high-priced land less than a stone's throw from Bugsquat.

Angry? Surely you jest. I bought when Bugsquat was cheap. It ain't any
more.


Especially those banks who've lent money on interest-only, nothing down
loans. But ultimately they tend to make out okay. They just hold the
repo'd property until the next RE boom takes the prices higher.

It's that long-term thing again. And banks do fold from time to time....
or get bailed out by the taxpayer.

Do a little research and see how many banks in the areas I mentioned (SF,
Chicago, Miami) have folded in the past 25 years. Lots of mergers,
acquisitions, takeovers, but damn few failures.

Before sticking your thumbs behind your suspenders and looking smug, you
might wish to check out the history of RE values in San Francisco, for
example. The net price trend there has outstripped inflation manifold
for the past quarter century and shows no signs of slowing. Same in the
other two markets I mentioned. No one is talking generalities here, so
save the homespun economics lesson for your neighborhood kids. Bore
them, not us.

And what is the trend for local wages over the same period, hmm? What is
the overall cost of living relative to other areas?

Chicago--wages haven't come close to staying up with RE values. Income has,
for certain groups of people, however, mostly entrepreneurs. Cost of living
(exclusive of home ownership/renting) has remained relatively on par with
the rest of the country. The cost of living index is only a few tenths of a
point higher on average in Chicago than it is in South Bend, IN, with
shelter costs removed from the equation. Add shelter expense and it's a
whole different story.


As long as it is a desirable place to live, real estate will do well. When
does that trend reverse?

I think I asked first, since you implied that RE did not always sustain an
upward trend over the long haul.

You mean like land values in the impoverished regions of NC, which
encompass about 80% of the state?


??

You don't know much about current economic trends, do you. NC is actually
doing pretty well, relatively. And we appreciate the influx of money for
swamp land, thank you.

NC is doing relatively well--I'm well aware of that, being a land owner
there and keeping up with such matters. But there is a dichotomy of
substantial proportions between the highly prosperous urban areas, such as
Raleigh-Durham, Charlotte, etc. and the outlying rural areas where poverty
is and has been continuous for decades. Subtract the urban factor and you
have a typically impoverished deep south state. As for us tidewater (we
prefer that to swamp land, thank you kindly) types, we're crying all the way
to the bank.

If you think that long term trends are *always* up, immutably &
indubitably, then I have a great investment for you in Acme Buggy Whip Co
stock.


Get with the program, Doug. Who's talking about stock?

I am. Aren't you paying attention?

The value of a stock is tied to the productivity & profitability of the
company, which in turn is tied to the wages & benefits it can offer it's
employees, which is tied to what those employees can pay for local real
estate.

LOL. We're definitely not on the same page here. Miami and San Francisco
RE, for example, is hardly tied to local employee wages. For an eye-opener,
see who owns slightly less than half the high-priced RE is the Bay Area
these days. Let me help you--Chinese money (have you been in on the trade
imbalance thread elsewhere?) is buying up property and driving the values up
at a greater rate than ever before. Yes, there are a lot of workers in the
Bay Area, and many of them own property, but they aren't the driving force
behind the RE boom there. It's investors, both Chinese and American, but
predominantly Chinese, Japanese, and other Southeast Asians.

...And I'm not talking about RE in Buggy Whip, NC, either. I'm talking
about San Francisco, Miami, and Chicago, like I stated in the first place
when you rudely had to open mouth-insert foot and proclaim, while beating
your chest as you are wont to do regularly, that the phenomenon I was
describing happened in ****kick, NC, too.

It's also happening in a number of other places. Maybe you'd rather
pretend that only city slickers like yourself (who somehow can't seem to
follow a topic, and pay money for swampland) can understand?

Of course it's happening elsewhere, but not anywhere near the same rate as
in the places mentioned. My property in Oriental has tripled in value since
Jan. '04. Waterfront property in Miami has quadrupled in that same period.
Same along Chesapeake Bay. And for the record, Oriental is hardly swamp
land. The Neuse River has deposited soil at its mouth for centuries. No
one filled swamps to create my land. Next you're going to tell me that
someone is planning to backfill the sound to create more development land
all the way to the barrier islands (Outer Banks, for those who are curious).
I think you're envious of those of us who bought when the prices were
reasonable. Or perhaps your a xenophobe who hates any outsiders moving to
his precious state. Get over it.

... But as long as you raised the point, can you show me that the Dow
Jones Industrials average is lower now than, say 20 years ago? Or 50
years.

Easy enough to look it up. There have been long periods when the stock
marcket indexes were flat or downward.

Doug--you really need to learn to comprehend what you read. Go back and
read my original post. You'll note that I never implied there weren't
cyclical trends. In fact I stated such trends were the case in SF RE. I
said "ultimately" the market in RE is always up--that would be *over the
long haul.* I'll ask again--show me any state where RE values are lower
today than 20 or 50 years ago. Same with the Dow.



How about real estate in general--can you show me any state in the
country where RE values are lower than they were 20 or 50 years ago?

You have missed the point. Is the value higher or lower *relative to
what*?

You've lost this argument, haven't you. You're grasping at straws. Are you
one of those guys who needs a definition for the word "is?" Higher means
higher, realtive to the previous numbers. Even adjusted for inflation, the
numbers are substantially higher.


... You really should give your statements some thought before citing
something your Econ 101 professor told you years ago.


Maybe I see what's irritating you. Did you flunk Econ 101? Or maybe a cute
girl in that class turned you down for date?

Sorry to bring up painful memories.

I aced it, and she went out with me. She was the grad student TA. g

Gee this thread has come a long way. Started out at the ports & worked
it's way inland, I guess.


That surprises you? Are you The Thread Nazi, the one who demands that
threads remain on track in Usenet?


No, I just give them a title which actually reflects what is being talked
about.

Thanks, but I suspect we'll do fine without your titles. We all seem to be
able to identify the obvious.

Max

US ports... now housing prices
 

"Martin Baxter" wrote in message
...
DSK wrote:


How about real estate in general--can you show me any state in the
country
where RE values are lower than they were 20 or 50 years ago?

I'll bet there are lots of places along Rte 66, (after adjustment for
inflation).

But as you certainly noted, I said "any state," not just a few spots or
locales. For example, when the oil shale fiasco hit the skids, the towns
that grew up around the proposed strip mines died completely. You could buy
a $60K house there for 10% of the original unimproved land cost. There are
some areas in the Upper Peninsula in Michigan where the copper mines have
shut down and homes are on the block for a fraction of their build costs.
But net RE values in Michigan have continued to escalate with only minor
burbles in the upward curve. Adjusted for inflation, the aggregate land
values in Michigan are still ahead of the curve.

Max

US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 01 Mar 2006 11:57:00 GMT, Mys Terry
said:

It's bad enough you pass on bogus
info, but info not valid for over 40 years???


You have yet to prove that what I said was invalid for even 40 minutes.

What source confirms your claim that VT has more cows than people?

He's not worth a debate, Dave. Binary Bill, aka MysTerry, is little more
than an uninformed agitator. You're attempting a logical discussion with
him. It's unlikely he'll do more than engage in personal attacks.

Max

US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

Dave wrote:
On Wed, 01 Mar 2006 10:45:52 -0500, katy
said:


KIA's do....and it's like riding in a tin can...my sister has one
that she lets her teenagers drive...she won't get into it unless
there's absolutely no choice becasue she says it aggravates her
arthritis!


That sounds like serious mechanical breakdown.

Yeah...my sis's not doing too well....

US ports... now housing prices
 

Maxprop wrote:
"DSK" wrote in message
.. .

Capt. JG wrote:

I think you're talking about Prop 13.



He's got it confused with Area 51


I've been afflicted with avian flu H5N1.

Max


I always knew you were bird-brained ; P

US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 01 Mar 2006 04:50:54 GMT, "Maxprop" said:

The US is capable
of doing either, or both. But labor is going to have to recognize some
major realignment, along with top-heavy industry. The $30 per hour jobs
are
vanishing faster than spotted owls, and until organized labor acknowledges
that low-paying jobs are better than NO jobs, the situation will
exacerbate.

I think you're fighting yesterday's battle that's already been lost. We
probably have no business trying to compete in the manufacture of goods
that
have a major labor component.

I admit I probably haven't faced up to the reality of it, but I'd have to
agree. Wishful thinking won't correct the issue.

I'm more concerned with the country's
increased lack of competitiveness in the better-paying services and
software
sectors.

No doubt we are doomed to repeat earlier mistakes. And it doesn't help when
we incur the costs of development for higher-tech products and services,
only to have them pirated and sold for pennies on the dollar by our "most
favored nation" trading partners.

Max

US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
He must not live in a very good neighborhood. :-) That's cheap for SF
these days. Well, not cheap, but not the top of the market either.

It's a rather modest SF upper five in what used to be called Inner Sunset,
but now seems to be referred to as Golden Gate Heights. It's that area just
west of Mt. Sutro, but on the upslope toward the Pacific. He lives on 10th
Avenue, between Moraga and Noriega. Nice, quiet neighborhood, but the homes
slightly higher on the hill above him sell for double or triple what his
place would bring. And not far away, St. Francis Wood brings $2 million
plus, average. His next door neighbor died this past December, and his
house sold for just over $900K. The house was slightly larger than my
brother's place, but not as nice internally or externally. My brother and
his wife did a $150K remodeling upgrade to the kitchen and bath two years
ago. The place is gorgeous. And yes, it's toward the lower end of the SF
RE market.

Max

US ports turned over to Arabs?
 

"Scotty" wrote in message
...

"Maxprop" wrote in message
nk.net...

My daughter and son-in-law bought a Ford Explorer about 8
years back. The
engine, which they properly and carefully maintained via
company maintenance
schedules, gave up after 60K miles--failed main bearings.
Ford offered to
pay less than $1000 toward the purchase of a new engine.
The kids scrapped
the vehicle. Ford now tops their "never again" list.


What year? My '91 Explorer, with 110K on runs fine.

'98. Can ya believe it? They changed the oil every 3K miles, got all the
routine maintenance professionally done, and the bearings began to get noisy
at 56K miles. Gone at 60K. Ford admitted it was a defect, but since the
vehicle was out of warranty, they were unwilling to put much into it. They
said they "might" be willing to contribute about $900 toward a new short
block, but the dealership said, "I wouldn't count on that. They've made
such promises before and left the owners high and dry."

Max