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US ports turned over to Arabs?
What? It's fact check it out.
No way would the UAE allow an infidel country like America to run a port in the UAE. NO WAY ........NO HOW. Joe |
US ports turned over to Arabs?
I think there's some relevance, although not about the security issue. Seems
to me it's an open trade-like issue that should be examined. If they can own a company here, why is it so difficult to open one there.... -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Dave" wrote in message ... On 24 Feb 2006 08:23:38 -0800, "Joe" said: What? It's fact check it out. And of utterly no relevance to the present issue. |
US ports turned over to Arabs?
I don't think it's a matter of protectionism. It's a matter of other
countries opening up their markets. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Dave" wrote in message ... On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 09:28:35 -0800, "Capt. JG" said: I think there's some relevance, although not about the security issue. Seems to me it's an open trade-like issue that should be examined. If they can own a company here, why is it so difficult to open one there.... There are many countries of the world that are not nearly as open to foreign investment as we are. Whether we should be more protectionist in that regard, and whether we should seek to restrict foreign investment as a tool for opening others' capital markets is a different discussion. Generally, I think the answer is no, but that general discussion has little to do with the transaction under discussion, and it seems to me that the very act of looking for such excuses weakens the claims of opponents of the transaction. |
US ports turned over to Arabs?
"Scotty" wrote in message ... "Maxprop" wrote in message ink.net... A third question, which has not been addressed to my knowledge, is: are there no American or non-Middle East firms that can accomplish the same job, and if so why was the British, now UAE, firm chosen over the others? This is a business question, not related to the two questions you posed above. Payoffs, shhhhhh.... W's secret is safe with me. Max |
US ports turned over to Arabs?
This from a citizen of a country that does everything it can think of to keep agricultural produce *out* of the USA....... Ah, the irony. PDW In article , Capt. JG wrote: I don't think it's a matter of protectionism. It's a matter of other countries opening up their markets. |
US ports turned over to Arabs?
In article , Scotty
wrote: "Peter Wiley" wrote Never heard of Dubai. I go to a P&O port about 4 times a month. http://edition.cnn.com/2006/BUSINESS/02/21/port.europe/ When they say the port of Balt, or NJ, I wonder if it means all of them, as there are several different ports within each city. P&O is one of 5 'lines' inside Dundalk Marine Terminal, which is one of 5 different ports in Balt. I doubt most people know the difference between a port and a cargo terminal in a port. Joe certainly doesn't. They have to be talking about the terminals. The only time the 2 are the same thing is when there is only 1 cargo terminal at a port. PDW |
US ports turned over to Arabs?
Peter Wiley wrote:
This from a citizen of a country that does everything it can think of to keep agricultural produce *out* of the USA....... Ah, the irony. PDW In article , Capt. JG wrote: I don't think it's a matter of protectionism. It's a matter of other countries opening up their markets. We do import out-of-season produce from South America. And we grow enough here to supply our own needs. Why would we import? Why would I eat French or British apples when I can have a far superior (I've seen what the Brits call apples) apple from Michigan, Oregon, or Washington Why would we import potatoes from anywhere when you can get 20 lbs. of Michigan, Maine, or Idaho potatoes for 2.99/bag? Why would we import wheat, corn, or soy when we have acres upon acres of our own? And why would we import produce from countries so far away that the produce would have to be fixed with some type of preservative so it didn't become overly ripe along the way? Not to mention that the closer the fruit is to ripe on the vine, the more nutrients there are in it, thus making some imports less valuable as a food source? Why import beef when some countries have mad cow disease and we don't and we have the ability to raise it ourselves? We're a huge country, with many different climes and growing seasons, unlike some countries that are limited by their latitude. What do you want us to import that we don't already have? We are even growing our own kiwi fruit now. |
US ports turned over to Arabs?
"katy" wrote in message ... We do import out-of-season produce from South America. And we grow enough here to supply our own needs. Why would we import? Why would I eat French or British apples when I can have a far superior (I've seen what the Brits call apples) apple from Michigan, Oregon, or Washington Why would we import potatoes from anywhere when you can get 20 lbs. of Michigan, Maine, or Idaho potatoes for 2.99/bag? Why would we import wheat, corn, or soy when we have acres upon acres of our own? And why would we import produce from countries so far away that the produce would have to be fixed with some type of preservative so it didn't become overly ripe along the way? Not to mention that the closer the fruit is to ripe on the vine, the more nutrients there are in it, thus making some imports less valuable as a food source? Why import beef when some countries have mad cow disease and we don't and we have the ability to raise it ourselves? We're a huge country, with many different climes and growing seasons, unlike some countries that are limited by their latitude. What do you want us to import that we don't already have? We are even growing our own kiwi fruit now. Bananas? |
US ports turned over to Arabs?
Peter, compared to many (perhaps even most) other countries, we have far
more open markets. Sure, we're not perfect, especially given the current administration, but we're not that bad either. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Peter Wiley" wrote in message . .. This from a citizen of a country that does everything it can think of to keep agricultural produce *out* of the USA....... Ah, the irony. PDW In article , Capt. JG wrote: I don't think it's a matter of protectionism. It's a matter of other countries opening up their markets. |
US ports turned over to Arabs?
katy wrote:
We do import out-of-season produce from South America. And fruit And fish And lumber ... And we grow enough here to supply our own needs. Why would we import? Because it's cheaper and leaves more US land for parks & preserves. ... Why would I eat French or British apples when I can have a far superior (I've seen what the Brits call apples) apple from Michigan, Oregon, or Washington If you don't like what they call apples, don't ever take one of what they call "cookies." I can eat them out of politeness, but my wife can't. BTW what's up with apples from New Zealand? They're pretty good and usually they're about a dollar a pound... I would think that doesn't even pay for shipping. DSK |
US ports turned over to Arabs?
Jon, I agree with you. The USA is pretty good about open markets. Esp as compared with the EEC and Japan, just to pick 2 examples. It's really US agriculture that shows up as protectionist. We pretty much stopped doing it a long time ago as it distorts the market and the consumer or general taxpayer picks up the tab. Fine if you can afford it. One of these days the CAP is really going to cause the EEC some grief, it already costs a fortune and is rife with corruption. PDW In article , Capt. JG wrote: Peter, compared to many (perhaps even most) other countries, we have far more open markets. Sure, we're not perfect, especially given the current administration, but we're not that bad either. |
US ports turned over to Arabs?
Scotty wrote:
"katy" wrote in message ... We do import out-of-season produce from South America. And we grow enough here to supply our own needs. Why would we import? Why would I eat French or British apples when I can have a far superior (I've seen what the Brits call apples) apple from Michigan, Oregon, or Washington Why would we import potatoes from anywhere when you can get 20 lbs. of Michigan, Maine, or Idaho potatoes for 2.99/bag? Why would we import wheat, corn, or soy when we have acres upon acres of our own? And why would we import produce from countries so far away that the produce would have to be fixed with some type of preservative so it didn't become overly ripe along the way? Not to mention that the closer the fruit is to ripe on the vine, the more nutrients there are in it, thus making some imports less valuable as a food source? Why import beef when some countries have mad cow disease and we don't and we have the ability to raise it ourselves? We're a huge country, with many different climes and growing seasons, unlike some countries that are limited by their latitude. What do you want us to import that we don't already have? We are even growing our own kiwi fruit now. Bananas? We get them from the Caribbean...we do import some foodstuff that is not available here and that's fine but why import what we already raise ourselves? |
US ports turned over to Arabs?
Peter Wiley wrote:
In article , katy wrote: Peter Wiley wrote: This from a citizen of a country that does everything it can think of to keep agricultural produce *out* of the USA....... Ah, the irony. PDW In article , Capt. JG wrote: I don't think it's a matter of protectionism. It's a matter of other countries opening up their markets. We do import out-of-season produce from South America. And we grow enough here to supply our own needs. Why would we import? Why would I eat French or British apples when I can have a far superior (I've seen what the Brits call apples) apple from Michigan, Oregon, or Washington Why would we import potatoes from anywhere when you can get 20 lbs. of Michigan, Maine, or Idaho potatoes for 2.99/bag? Why would we import wheat, corn, or soy when we have acres upon acres of our own? And why would we import produce from countries so far away that the produce would have to be fixed with some type of preservative so it didn't become overly ripe along the way? Not to mention that the closer the fruit is to ripe on the vine, the more nutrients there are in it, thus making some imports less valuable as a food source? Why import beef when some countries have mad cow disease and we don't and we have the ability to raise it ourselves? We're a huge country, with many different climes and growing seasons, unlike some countries that are limited by their latitude. What do you want us to import that we don't already have? We are even growing our own kiwi fruit now. Shrug. Most US beef is from feedlots. IMHO feedlots are a disgusting aberration and rate as cruelty to animals. This is an informed opinion; I once spent 2 years designing & building cattle feedlot management software for Australia's top agro-science research group. During that 2 years I spent a *lot* of time working hands-on in feedlots. One of the most important modules in the software dealt with vetinary drugs, their effects & witholding periods from market etc. I quit the day V1.0 was finished when they wouldn't let me go to a different project. If you don't have some form of prion disease, you're very, very lucky because I know that your husbandry methods aren't the reasons. Or weren't 10 years ago when I was doing this stuff. As for fresh fruit & vegetables, I agree fully. Local is best. The problem with your acres & acres of wheat, corn soy etc isn't that you have too little, it's that it costs you too much. To prop up your farmers, you refuse to allow imports from places which can grow those foodstuffs more efficiently. Hence my comment WRT the irony of a US citizen complaining about protection. It is a *fact* that other countries can produce those foodstuffs more cheaply than you can, including delivery to the USA. Often those countries are 3rd World ones trying to get a better std of living for themselves by exporting agro-produce. Stopping them is doing 2 things, both bad. First, you're paying more than you need for domestic foodstuffs. Second, you're helping to keep others impoverished. Of course, it's actually worse than that because you use market subsidies to sell to o/s countries, thereby distorting the international markets. You probably waste enough money annually to pay for another invasion of, say, Syria. PDW I don't adhere to the Walmart mentality...importation of cheap goods to the US is driving US manufactureres out of business. And I am not an adherent to an a system of equal global economy, which IMO, smacks of socialism. |
US ports turned over to Arabs?
In article , katy
wrote: Peter Wiley wrote: In article , katy wrote: Peter Wiley wrote: This from a citizen of a country that does everything it can think of to keep agricultural produce *out* of the USA....... Ah, the irony. PDW In article , Capt. JG wrote: I don't think it's a matter of protectionism. It's a matter of other countries opening up their markets. We do import out-of-season produce from South America. And we grow enough here to supply our own needs. Why would we import? Why would I eat French or British apples when I can have a far superior (I've seen what the Brits call apples) apple from Michigan, Oregon, or Washington Why would we import potatoes from anywhere when you can get 20 lbs. of Michigan, Maine, or Idaho potatoes for 2.99/bag? Why would we import wheat, corn, or soy when we have acres upon acres of our own? And why would we import produce from countries so far away that the produce would have to be fixed with some type of preservative so it didn't become overly ripe along the way? Not to mention that the closer the fruit is to ripe on the vine, the more nutrients there are in it, thus making some imports less valuable as a food source? Why import beef when some countries have mad cow disease and we don't and we have the ability to raise it ourselves? We're a huge country, with many different climes and growing seasons, unlike some countries that are limited by their latitude. What do you want us to import that we don't already have? We are even growing our own kiwi fruit now. Shrug. Most US beef is from feedlots. IMHO feedlots are a disgusting aberration and rate as cruelty to animals. This is an informed opinion; I once spent 2 years designing & building cattle feedlot management software for Australia's top agro-science research group. During that 2 years I spent a *lot* of time working hands-on in feedlots. One of the most important modules in the software dealt with vetinary drugs, their effects & witholding periods from market etc. I quit the day V1.0 was finished when they wouldn't let me go to a different project. If you don't have some form of prion disease, you're very, very lucky because I know that your husbandry methods aren't the reasons. Or weren't 10 years ago when I was doing this stuff. As for fresh fruit & vegetables, I agree fully. Local is best. The problem with your acres & acres of wheat, corn soy etc isn't that you have too little, it's that it costs you too much. To prop up your farmers, you refuse to allow imports from places which can grow those foodstuffs more efficiently. Hence my comment WRT the irony of a US citizen complaining about protection. It is a *fact* that other countries can produce those foodstuffs more cheaply than you can, including delivery to the USA. Often those countries are 3rd World ones trying to get a better std of living for themselves by exporting agro-produce. Stopping them is doing 2 things, both bad. First, you're paying more than you need for domestic foodstuffs. Second, you're helping to keep others impoverished. Of course, it's actually worse than that because you use market subsidies to sell to o/s countries, thereby distorting the international markets. You probably waste enough money annually to pay for another invasion of, say, Syria. PDW I don't adhere to the Walmart mentality...importation of cheap goods to the US is driving US manufactureres out of business. And I am not an adherent to an a system of equal global economy, which IMO, smacks of socialism. Riiiiiiiiiight. So what you're saying is, you'd rather inefficient and expensive locally made goods than something of equal quality from overseas, at a lower price. So - tell me why you own a French yacht when there are so many more expensive and inferior US made ones available. PDW |
US ports turned over to Arabs?
Peter Wiley wrote:
In article , katy wrote: Peter Wiley wrote: In article , katy wrote: Peter Wiley wrote: This from a citizen of a country that does everything it can think of to keep agricultural produce *out* of the USA....... Ah, the irony. PDW In article , Capt. JG wrote: I don't think it's a matter of protectionism. It's a matter of other countries opening up their markets. We do import out-of-season produce from South America. And we grow enough here to supply our own needs. Why would we import? Why would I eat French or British apples when I can have a far superior (I've seen what the Brits call apples) apple from Michigan, Oregon, or Washington Why would we import potatoes from anywhere when you can get 20 lbs. of Michigan, Maine, or Idaho potatoes for 2.99/bag? Why would we import wheat, corn, or soy when we have acres upon acres of our own? And why would we import produce from countries so far away that the produce would have to be fixed with some type of preservative so it didn't become overly ripe along the way? Not to mention that the closer the fruit is to ripe on the vine, the more nutrients there are in it, thus making some imports less valuable as a food source? Why import beef when some countries have mad cow disease and we don't and we have the ability to raise it ourselves? We're a huge country, with many different climes and growing seasons, unlike some countries that are limited by their latitude. What do you want us to import that we don't already have? We are even growing our own kiwi fruit now. Shrug. Most US beef is from feedlots. IMHO feedlots are a disgusting aberration and rate as cruelty to animals. This is an informed opinion; I once spent 2 years designing & building cattle feedlot management software for Australia's top agro-science research group. During that 2 years I spent a *lot* of time working hands-on in feedlots. One of the most important modules in the software dealt with vetinary drugs, their effects & witholding periods from market etc. I quit the day V1.0 was finished when they wouldn't let me go to a different project. If you don't have some form of prion disease, you're very, very lucky because I know that your husbandry methods aren't the reasons. Or weren't 10 years ago when I was doing this stuff. As for fresh fruit & vegetables, I agree fully. Local is best. The problem with your acres & acres of wheat, corn soy etc isn't that you have too little, it's that it costs you too much. To prop up your farmers, you refuse to allow imports from places which can grow those foodstuffs more efficiently. Hence my comment WRT the irony of a US citizen complaining about protection. It is a *fact* that other countries can produce those foodstuffs more cheaply than you can, including delivery to the USA. Often those countries are 3rd World ones trying to get a better std of living for themselves by exporting agro-produce. Stopping them is doing 2 things, both bad. First, you're paying more than you need for domestic foodstuffs. Second, you're helping to keep others impoverished. Of course, it's actually worse than that because you use market subsidies to sell to o/s countries, thereby distorting the international markets. You probably waste enough money annually to pay for another invasion of, say, Syria. PDW I don't adhere to the Walmart mentality...importation of cheap goods to the US is driving US manufactureres out of business. And I am not an adherent to an a system of equal global economy, which IMO, smacks of socialism. Riiiiiiiiiight. So what you're saying is, you'd rather inefficient and expensive locally made goods than something of equal quality from overseas, at a lower price. So - tell me why you own a French yacht when there are so many more expensive and inferior US made ones available. PDW I didn't import it...we bought it used,,,and I don't think we should be isolationist...I am a proponent of the American farm movement, though, have had many friends who are small patch farmers eking out an existence...yes, big cities and large national food chains do use feed lot beef, but in the heartland of America, you'll find homegrown produce and homegrown meat in the stores. Some local chains make a point of buying all the 4-H animals and the FFA winners. It's your perspective of America. You think of big cities, etc. I think of the midwest and rural life. Selling out by importing cheap produce only anihilates a lifestyle that is part of our history that us struggling to exist. |
US ports turned over to Arabs?
Dave wrote:
On Mon, 27 Feb 2006 18:32:57 -0500, katy said: a lifestyle that is part of our history The notion has a certain romantic appeal, but the lifestyle passed 30 or 40 years ago. The family farm is today a creature of Madison Avenue used almost entirely in defense of large agribusinesses. Michigan is still small farm based...as are several other states... |
US ports turned over to Arabs?
"Peter Wiley" wrote in message . .. So - tell me why you own a French yacht when there are so many more expensive and inferior US made ones available. She bought her boat used, Pete. It was the best boat available in her price range at the time. Max |
US ports turned over to Arabs?
In article . net,
Maxprop wrote: "Peter Wiley" wrote in message . .. So - tell me why you own a French yacht when there are so many more expensive and inferior US made ones available. She bought her boat used, Pete. It was the best boat available in her price range at the time. Oh, I don't doubt it. Point is, tho, that Katy coulda bought a new US made boat for a higher price and thereby supported US industry. It might have been a smaller boat, or a worse equipped boat, or whatever, of course. So - what's the difference with foodstuffs? Why insist that people have to buy US grown produce instead of cheaper imported produce, when the same logic isn't applied to other items - like boats. That's my point. PDW |
US ports turned over to Arabs?
In article , katy
wrote: Dave wrote: On Mon, 27 Feb 2006 18:32:57 -0500, katy said: a lifestyle that is part of our history The notion has a certain romantic appeal, but the lifestyle passed 30 or 40 years ago. The family farm is today a creature of Madison Avenue used almost entirely in defense of large agribusinesses. Michigan is still small farm based...as are several other states... Lessee...... http://www.enchantedlearning.com/usa/states/michigan/ Population - 9,938,444 (as of 2000) [Michigan is the eighth most populous state in the USA, after California, New York, Texas, Florida, Illinois, Pennsylvania and Ohio] Major Industries - car manufacturing, farming (corn, soybeans, wheat), timber, fishing Somehow, Katy, I don't think that anyone can really claim that Michigan is small farm based. Even the farming listed - corn, soybeans & wheat - are broadacre agribusiness farming. Sorry, but you're wrong. There may well be a lot of small farms, but unless you can show some figures showing they produce a significant amount of food, they simply don't count economically. And, like it or not, you're in a global economy. Your oil comes from overseas. Increasingly minerals come from overseas. You aren't self sufficient in much if anything including food probably, once the lack of chemicals and fuels are factored in (broadacre farming only works with a high energy budget). Most 1st World economies are the same. I don't particularly like this myself, but it's still a fact. As a matter of national strategy I can see making a case for food self sufficiency in basic foodstuffs. However this *always* gets rorted and you end up with export mountains (funded by taxpayers) dumped to try to salvage something. In the process you trash other economies. That's both the USA and the EU. Don't even start me on sugar. PDW |
US ports turned over to Arabs?
"katy" wrote in message ... Dave wrote: On Mon, 27 Feb 2006 18:32:57 -0500, katy said: a lifestyle that is part of our history The notion has a certain romantic appeal, but the lifestyle passed 30 or 40 years ago. The family farm is today a creature of Madison Avenue used almost entirely in defense of large agribusinesses. Michigan is still small farm based...as are several other states... We still have a smattering of tiny, family farms here, too, especially among the Amish. But most, by far, are monstrous corporate farms encompassing thousands of acres. I'd be surprised if the little farms comprise 10% of the gross agricultural product of Indiana. Max |
US ports turned over to Arabs?
"Peter Wiley" wrote in message . .. In article . net, Maxprop wrote: "Peter Wiley" wrote in message . .. So - tell me why you own a French yacht when there are so many more expensive and inferior US made ones available. She bought her boat used, Pete. It was the best boat available in her price range at the time. Oh, I don't doubt it. Point is, tho, that Katy coulda bought a new US made boat for a higher price and thereby supported US industry. It might have been a smaller boat, or a worse equipped boat, or whatever, of course. They had just sold their smaller, US-built boat, and another smaller US-built boat before that, IIRC. Chanteuse was a substantial size upgrade. So - what's the difference with foodstuffs? Why insist that people have to buy US grown produce instead of cheaper imported produce, when the same logic isn't applied to other items - like boats. That's my point. Your point is correct. The vast majority of goods sold in the USA are of foreign manufacture now. I'm always a bit amazed when I discover the product I've bought is of local manufacture. Last figures I saw said the trade deficit between the US and China was something like 78-22. One only has to watch container ships entering and leaving San Francisco Bay to see this--the incoming are loaded and way down on their waterlines, while the departing vessels have empty containers and are riding high. Max |
US ports turned over to Arabs?
"Mys Terry" wrote in message ... On 27 Feb 2006 19:31:02 -0600, Dave wrote: On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 00:59:32 GMT, Mys Terry said: I live in Connecticut. There are many small working farms in my area even though I am also within a roughly 30 minute drive of several pretty large cities. This is not Wyoming, it's crowded, incredibly expensive, Connecticut. My back yard neighbor is a working horse farm. Just today I heard from someone who is STARTING a new small farm within a couple of miles of my house. Hey, I keep my boat there, and we had a house in SE CT for about 15 years. I certainly love the Chester and Hamburg fairs, and used to also love the Madison Sat. night auctions. But much though I regret it, I think my statement is nevertheless accurate. Last time I checked, there were STILL more cows than people in Vermont. Not since the late 60s, actually. http://www.outdoorjapan.com/features...grounds-1.html Look under "Dairy Farming." Max |
US ports turned over to Arabs?
"Dave" wrote in message ... On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 02:44:36 GMT, Mys Terry said: Last time I checked, there were STILL more cows than people in Vermont. I suspect it won't be long before they're outnumbered by former New Yorkers. You mean there are still some native Vermonters in Vermont??? Max |
US ports turned over to Arabs?
In article . net,
Maxprop wrote: "Peter Wiley" wrote in message . .. In article . net, Maxprop wrote: "Peter Wiley" wrote in message . .. So - tell me why you own a French yacht when there are so many more expensive and inferior US made ones available. She bought her boat used, Pete. It was the best boat available in her price range at the time. Oh, I don't doubt it. Point is, tho, that Katy coulda bought a new US made boat for a higher price and thereby supported US industry. It might have been a smaller boat, or a worse equipped boat, or whatever, of course. They had just sold their smaller, US-built boat, and another smaller US-built boat before that, IIRC. Chanteuse was a substantial size upgrade. Perfectly rational decision - as far as 'rational' can be used WRT boats anyway. Buy the best you can for the dollars you have available. So - what's the difference with foodstuffs? Why insist that people have to buy US grown produce instead of cheaper imported produce, when the same logic isn't applied to other items - like boats. That's my point. Your point is correct. The vast majority of goods sold in the USA are of foreign manufacture now. I'm always a bit amazed when I discover the product I've bought is of local manufacture. Last figures I saw said the trade deficit between the US and China was something like 78-22. One only has to watch container ships entering and leaving San Francisco Bay to see this--the incoming are loaded and way down on their waterlines, while the departing vessels have empty containers and are riding high. That's unsustainable in the longer term too, I think. We run trade deficits with the USA. At the moment the Chinese demand for raw materials is helping our economy along, haven't checked but I'd bet we're running a fat surplus and our exports to China are in USD. You're a nett importer of goods. I can't see how you can keep running a country where your chief export seems to be US dollar debt. PDW |
US ports turned over to Arabs?
"Dave" wrote in message ... On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 02:44:36 GMT, Mys Terry said: Last time I checked, there were STILL more cows than people in Vermont. I suspect it won't be long before they're outnumbered by former New Yorkers. Yeah, most of them lawyers...there goes the neighborhood. SV |
US ports turned over to Arabs?
"Maxprop" wrote in message ink.net... Your point is correct. The vast majority of goods sold in the USA are of foreign manufacture now. I'm always a bit amazed when I discover the product I've bought is of local manufacture. Last figures I saw said the trade deficit between the US and China was something like 78-22. One only has to watch container ships entering and leaving San Francisco Bay to see this--the incoming are loaded and way down on their waterlines, while the departing vessels have empty containers and are riding high. Actually, we're shipping a lot of 'stuff' to China. A lot of machinery, that will be copied and then produced in China for 1/4 the price. Scotty |
US ports turned over to Arabs?
Dave wrote:
On Mon, 27 Feb 2006 19:29:41 -0500, katy said: Michigan is still small farm based...as are several other states... Perhaps. But according to a 1991 study at the University of Michigan the number of family farms declined from 77,946 in 1969 to 51,172 by 1991. I doubt that the trend has reversed itself in the last 15 years. No, it hasn't...and for a very good reason. Developers have exploited good farm land, forcing townships to raise the value of raw land to a point where the tac structure alone became a burden to farmers, driving them off the land. When your farm is making less and less profit and some developer comes along and offers you a bushel of money for it, you take it and to hell with the farm, even though you ahve no idea what else you'll do for a living. Problem is, now that all taht good farmland has been turned into residential and commercial development, real estate is now devaluing rapidly. The economy in MI is at an alltime low and people are leaving the state in droves because of the job market not being able to support the population. We are in a fortunate position where we do not have to make a low sale on our house just to get out from under it, but many in the state will be taking big losses, especially those who bought the over-inflated pricey real estate in the first place. The whole thing is a sad situation...onl;y people who benefit are the devlopers and the realtoes.... |
US ports turned over to Arabs?
Peter Wiley wrote:
In article . net, Maxprop wrote: "Peter Wiley" wrote in message m... So - tell me why you own a French yacht when there are so many more expensive and inferior US made ones available. She bought her boat used, Pete. It was the best boat available in her price range at the time. Oh, I don't doubt it. Point is, tho, that Katy coulda bought a new US made boat for a higher price and thereby supported US industry. It might have been a smaller boat, or a worse equipped boat, or whatever, of course. So - what's the difference with foodstuffs? Why insist that people have to buy US grown produce instead of cheaper imported produce, when the same logic isn't applied to other items - like boats. That's my point. PDW No, we couldn't and wouldn't have bought a new boat for any reason at all. Buying a new boat is stupid....the bugs haven't been worked out of it, it's under-equipped, and usually has the factory installed acoutrements, generally of a poorer quality than those installed at a later date by the owner when he wants to upgrade. Also, once it leaves the factory and is dumped in the slip, the value drops dramatically. The other point is that Kirie manufactured Elite's in the US...ours was a prototype from France, but the company did invest here and employed American citizens. An investment in this country is necessary for trade relations to be on par. |
US ports turned over to Arabs?
Peter Wiley wrote:
In article , katy wrote: Dave wrote: On Mon, 27 Feb 2006 18:32:57 -0500, katy said: a lifestyle that is part of our history The notion has a certain romantic appeal, but the lifestyle passed 30 or 40 years ago. The family farm is today a creature of Madison Avenue used almost entirely in defense of large agribusinesses. Michigan is still small farm based...as are several other states... Lessee...... http://www.enchantedlearning.com/usa/states/michigan/ Population - 9,938,444 (as of 2000) [Michigan is the eighth most populous state in the USA, after California, New York, Texas, Florida, Illinois, Pennsylvania and Ohio] Major Industries - car manufacturing, farming (corn, soybeans, wheat), timber, fishing Somehow, Katy, I don't think that anyone can really claim that Michigan is small farm based. Even the farming listed - corn, soybeans & wheat - are broadacre agribusiness farming. Sorry, but you're wrong. There may well be a lot of small farms, but unless you can show some figures showing they produce a significant amount of food, they simply don't count economically. And, like it or not, you're in a global economy. Your oil comes from overseas. Increasingly minerals come from overseas. You aren't self sufficient in much if anything including food probably, once the lack of chemicals and fuels are factored in (broadacre farming only works with a high energy budget). Most 1st World economies are the same. I don't particularly like this myself, but it's still a fact. As a matter of national strategy I can see making a case for food self sufficiency in basic foodstuffs. However this *always* gets rorted and you end up with export mountains (funded by taxpayers) dumped to try to salvage something. In the process you trash other economies. That's both the USA and the EU. Don't even start me on sugar. PDW Michigan fruit farmers are almost all calssified as small farms" http://web1.msue.msu.edu/fruit/ same with sugar beet growers... http://www.ipmcenters.org/cropprofil...ugarbeets.html For that matter, most of the people I know who sow corn and wheat have 300-600 acre farms, are family run, and sell off to coops or at the local granary...same with beef production in Michigan. We have two farms that raise beef within 5 miles of our house. One farm has a herd of about 100 cattle while the other has less...that is the norm for beef and daity farms in Western Michigan. I've lived there for all but a short part of my life and am very familiar what does and does not exist there... |
US ports turned over to Arabs?
Maxprop wrote:
"Peter Wiley" wrote in message . .. In article . net, Maxprop wrote: "Peter Wiley" wrote in message om... So - tell me why you own a French yacht when there are so many more expensive and inferior US made ones available. She bought her boat used, Pete. It was the best boat available in her price range at the time. Oh, I don't doubt it. Point is, tho, that Katy coulda bought a new US made boat for a higher price and thereby supported US industry. It might have been a smaller boat, or a worse equipped boat, or whatever, of course. They had just sold their smaller, US-built boat, and another smaller US-built boat before that, IIRC. Chanteuse was a substantial size upgrade. 27 feet to 30 ft and 4 inches is a substantial size difference? And both the previous boats were very old...the upkeep on them was horrendous and the 27 had an atomic 4 that was going to need to be replaced...Neither had any great value and the 22' sailed for crap (shoal draft)...we upgraded to a boat with diesel and a wheel (27 was a tiller boat and Mr Sails has had rotator cuff surgery...) So - what's the difference with foodstuffs? Why insist that people have to buy US grown produce instead of cheaper imported produce, when the same logic isn't applied to other items - like boats. That's my point. Your point is correct. The vast majority of goods sold in the USA are of foreign manufacture now. I'm always a bit amazed when I discover the product I've bought is of local manufacture. Last figures I saw said the trade deficit between the US and China was something like 78-22. One only has to watch container ships entering and leaving San Francisco Bay to see this--the incoming are loaded and way down on their waterlines, while the departing vessels have empty containers and are riding high. Max The major problem is that American manufactureres ignored the fact that this was going to happen. When Mr Sails worked for Steelcase, his team dragged in a desk made by HON to a presentation and indicated that that was the future of office furniture and that tghey should eatablish a competitive line. But the PTB's said "absolutely not". We would be lowering our standards. Problem was, though, that unless they bought used, the average small business owner, which is still the heart of America but is fading fast, could not afford Steelcase furniture. The average doctor could not decorate his waiting room with Steelcase designs. So they ignored the American public, holding out for governemnt contracts. And then 9/11 hit and it was all over. America has sold herself out by not having the foresight to change with the changing world. |
US ports turned over to Arabs?
Scotty wrote:
"Maxprop" wrote in message ink.net... Your point is correct. The vast majority of goods sold in the USA are of foreign manufacture now. I'm always a bit amazed when I discover the product I've bought is of local manufacture. Last figures I saw said the trade deficit between the US and China was something like 78-22. One only has to watch container ships entering and leaving San Francisco Bay to see this--the incoming are loaded and way down on their waterlines, while the departing vessels have empty containers and are riding high. Actually, we're shipping a lot of 'stuff' to China. A lot of machinery, that will be copied and then produced in China for 1/4 the price. Scotty My brother just got back from 3 weeks in China for Alticor, which has established a large niche there... |
US ports turned over to Arabs?
In article , katy
wrote: Maxprop wrote: Your point is correct. The vast majority of goods sold in the USA are of foreign manufacture now. I'm always a bit amazed when I discover the product I've bought is of local manufacture. Last figures I saw said the trade deficit between the US and China was something like 78-22. One only has to watch container ships entering and leaving San Francisco Bay to see this--the incoming are loaded and way down on their waterlines, while the departing vessels have empty containers and are riding high. Max The major problem is that American manufactureres ignored the fact that this was going to happen. When Mr Sails worked for Steelcase, his team dragged in a desk made by HON to a presentation and indicated that that was the future of office furniture and that tghey should eatablish a competitive line. But the PTB's said "absolutely not". We would be lowering our standards. Problem was, though, that unless they bought used, the average small business owner, which is still the heart of America but is fading fast, could not afford Steelcase furniture. The average doctor could not decorate his waiting room with Steelcase designs. So they ignored the American public, holding out for governemnt contracts. And then 9/11 hit and it was all over. America has sold herself out by not having the foresight to change with the changing world. Bingo. We've been running this argument over on rec.crafts.metalworking for years now. There are basically no US manufacturers of small precision tools like lathes, mills etc left. South Bend didn't update its lathe design in 50 years and that wasn't because it was perfect. I have a mix of US and British machinery and I like it. But it's all old. When I go to buy a new lathe or milling machine for my people at work, I buy one made in Taiwan or China. They aren't as elegant or as well finished, but they cut metal just fine and the accuracy is satisfactory. It didn't have to be that way, but it is. Ditto for vehicles. Almost nobody in Australia would buy an imported US made vehicle in preference to a Japanese or even Korean made one. PDW |
US ports turned over to Arabs?
In article , katy
wrote: Peter Wiley wrote: In article . net, Maxprop wrote: "Peter Wiley" wrote in message m... So - tell me why you own a French yacht when there are so many more expensive and inferior US made ones available. She bought her boat used, Pete. It was the best boat available in her price range at the time. Oh, I don't doubt it. Point is, tho, that Katy coulda bought a new US made boat for a higher price and thereby supported US industry. It might have been a smaller boat, or a worse equipped boat, or whatever, of course. So - what's the difference with foodstuffs? Why insist that people have to buy US grown produce instead of cheaper imported produce, when the same logic isn't applied to other items - like boats. That's my point. PDW No, we couldn't and wouldn't have bought a new boat for any reason at all. Buying a new boat is stupid....the bugs haven't been worked out of it, it's under-equipped, and usually has the factory installed acoutrements, generally of a poorer quality than those installed at a later date by the owner when he wants to upgrade. Also, once it leaves the factory and is dumped in the slip, the value drops dramatically. The other point is that Kirie manufactured Elite's in the US...ours was a prototype from France, but the company did invest here and employed American citizens. An investment in this country is necessary for trade relations to be on par. No it's not. All you really need is a value exchange, and looking at it strictly 2 way doesn't work real well. I agree about buying a new boat. I apply that philosophy to vehicles as well. The only new vehicle I've ever bought, I still drive after 23 years of ownership. Nobody else would want it now.... PDW |
US ports turned over to Arabs?
"katy" wrote in message ... Dave wrote: On Mon, 27 Feb 2006 19:29:41 -0500, katy said: Michigan is still small farm based...as are several other states... Perhaps. But according to a 1991 study at the University of Michigan the number of family farms declined from 77,946 in 1969 to 51,172 by 1991. I doubt that the trend has reversed itself in the last 15 years. No, it hasn't...and for a very good reason. Developers have exploited good farm land, forcing townships to raise the value of raw land to a point where the tac structure alone became a burden to farmers, driving them off the land. When your farm is making less and less profit and some developer comes along and offers you a bushel of money for it, you take it and to hell with the farm, even though you ahve no idea what else you'll do for a living. Problem is, now that all taht good farmland has been turned into residential and commercial development, real estate is now devaluing rapidly. The economy in MI is at an alltime low and people are leaving the state in droves because of the job market not being able to support the population. We are in a fortunate position where we do not have to make a low sale on our house just to get out from under it, but many in the state will be taking big losses, especially those who bought the over-inflated pricey real estate in the first place. The whole thing is a sad situation...onl;y people who benefit are the devlopers and the realtoes.... Katy, with the exception of waterfront property, there is probably no real estate in the state of Michigan that's significantly overvalued. Even the waterfront property, probably. Agreed, the real estate market in Michigan is fairly poor, but there's the economy again. Now soCal and soFla are another story entirely. I've read recently that some areas may be overvalued by as much as 40%. John Cairns |
US ports turned over to Arabs?
In article , katy
wrote: Peter Wiley wrote: Ditto for vehicles. Almost nobody in Australia would buy an imported US made vehicle in preference to a Japanese or even Korean made one. PDW We had a KIA and our son drives KIA's...junk cars....give me a GM anyday...or even a Ford.... Give me a Subaru, Toyota, Mitsubishi etc. Korean cars here seem to be pretty reliable and have long warranties. After that, you've said it all. PDW |
US ports turned over to Arabs?
In article , katy
wrote: John Cairns wrote: "katy" wrote in message ... Dave wrote: On Mon, 27 Feb 2006 19:29:41 -0500, katy said: Michigan is still small farm based...as are several other states... Perhaps. But according to a 1991 study at the University of Michigan the number of family farms declined from 77,946 in 1969 to 51,172 by 1991. I doubt that the trend has reversed itself in the last 15 years. No, it hasn't...and for a very good reason. Developers have exploited good farm land, forcing townships to raise the value of raw land to a point where the tac structure alone became a burden to farmers, driving them off the land. When your farm is making less and less profit and some developer comes along and offers you a bushel of money for it, you take it and to hell with the farm, even though you ahve no idea what else you'll do for a living. Problem is, now that all taht good farmland has been turned into residential and commercial development, real estate is now devaluing rapidly. The economy in MI is at an alltime low and people are leaving the state in droves because of the job market not being able to support the population. We are in a fortunate position where we do not have to make a low sale on our house just to get out from under it, but many in the state will be taking big losses, especially those who bought the over-inflated pricey real estate in the first place. The whole thing is a sad situation...onl;y people who benefit are the devlopers and the realtoes.... Katy, with the exception of waterfront property, there is probably no real estate in the state of Michigan that's significantly overvalued. Even the waterfront property, probably. Agreed, the real estate market in Michigan is fairly poor, but there's the economy again. Now soCal and soFla are another story entirely. I've read recently that some areas may be overvalued by as much as 40%. John Cairns Have a conversation with our realtor. He sends us gobs of articles about it every week...I ahte realtors...wish we didn't have to use one... No such thing as overvalued or undervalued in a free market, except in someone's perceptions. It's worth what you can sell it for, when you want to or have to sell it. Period. What a person paid for it is totally irrelevant. I agree with you about changes in use driving up prices to where some activities are no longer economic. Sydney, where I used to live, has almost no industrial waterfront left because the yuppie scum all wanted waterfront apartments and then didn't want their view disturbed by industry, or their peace & quiet disturbed by power tools. PDW |
US ports turned over to Arabs?
"Peter Wiley" wrote in message . .. That's unsustainable in the longer term too, I think. We run trade deficits with the USA. At the moment the Chinese demand for raw materials is helping our economy along, haven't checked but I'd bet we're running a fat surplus and our exports to China are in USD. You're a nett importer of goods. I can't see how you can keep running a country where your chief export seems to be US dollar debt. My best guess is that we can't. To add complexity to the problem, our consumptive habits are being taxed by increasing crude prices along with higher demand for fossil fuels. One reason for this is that China will soon become a larger consumer of Middle Eastern oil than the US. The influence US demand for oil has on crude prices will ultimately be less important in light of that of mainland China. The USA is living in the past in many respects. Our labor force can't come to grips with the boilerplate fact that in a world economy the wages they've grown accustomed to are simply not reasonable if they wish to keep their jobs from being exported. Further, as you imply, we've evolved into a net importer of consumer goods with a continuing decline in exports. To further compound the economic miasma the government has begun to shoulder larger and larger financial obligations, straining an already-strained middle class to pay for it all. It's a recipe for disaster, and no one, especially our legislators, want to talk about it. It's not politically expedient to discuss such things, apparently, but the next generation or two won't have much choice. We're leaving our kids and grandkids a dismal legacy. Al Qaeda won't have to destroy us--we seem to be on course for doing that to ourselves. Max |
US ports turned over to Arabs?
"Scotty" wrote in message ... "Maxprop" wrote in message ink.net... Your point is correct. The vast majority of goods sold in the USA are of foreign manufacture now. I'm always a bit amazed when I discover the product I've bought is of local manufacture. Last figures I saw said the trade deficit between the US and China was something like 78-22. One only has to watch container ships entering and leaving San Francisco Bay to see this--the incoming are loaded and way down on their waterlines, while the departing vessels have empty containers and are riding high. Actually, we're shipping a lot of 'stuff' to China. A lot of machinery, that will be copied and then produced in China for 1/4 the price. Whew. That makes me feel a whole lot better. Max |
US ports turned over to Arabs?
"katy" wrote in message ... Maxprop wrote: "Peter Wiley" wrote in message . .. In article . net, Maxprop wrote: "Peter Wiley" wrote in message news:270220062239050541%peter_d_wiley@hotmail. com... So - tell me why you own a French yacht when there are so many more expensive and inferior US made ones available. She bought her boat used, Pete. It was the best boat available in her price range at the time. Oh, I don't doubt it. Point is, tho, that Katy coulda bought a new US made boat for a higher price and thereby supported US industry. It might have been a smaller boat, or a worse equipped boat, or whatever, of course. They had just sold their smaller, US-built boat, and another smaller US-built boat before that, IIRC. Chanteuse was a substantial size upgrade. 27 feet to 30 ft and 4 inches is a substantial size difference? And both the previous boats were very old...the upkeep on them was horrendous and the 27 had an atomic 4 that was going to need to be replaced...Neither had any great value and the 22' sailed for crap (shoal draft)...we upgraded to a boat with diesel and a wheel (27 was a tiller boat and Mr Sails has had rotator cuff surgery...) Sorry. I was just being kind. The major problem is that American manufactureres ignored the fact that this was going to happen. American manufacturing only? Doesn't American labor play a role in this? When Mr Sails worked for Steelcase, his team dragged in a desk made by HON to a presentation and indicated that that was the future of office furniture and that tghey should eatablish a competitive line. But the PTB's said "absolutely not". We would be lowering our standards. Problem was, though, that unless they bought used, the average small business owner, which is still the heart of America but is fading fast, could not afford Steelcase furniture. The average doctor could not decorate his waiting room with Steelcase designs. So they ignored the American public, holding out for governemnt contracts. And then 9/11 hit and it was all over. America has sold herself out by not having the foresight to change with the changing world. America can compete nicely with just about anyone, but some changes are necessary. To compete with one's competitors, one must at the very least emulate them. Better yet one should create a cost advantage for the same quality, or create a quality advantage for the same cost. The US is capable of doing either, or both. But labor is going to have to recognize some major realignment, along with top-heavy industry. The $30 per hour jobs are vanishing faster than spotted owls, and until organized labor acknowledges that low-paying jobs are better than NO jobs, the situation will exacerbate. And CEOs and other top-level execs are going to have to face the fact that multi-million dollar annual salaries and golden parachutes aren't compatible with the world economic markets of the day. My take? Neither side will give an inch before the whole thing collapses into a ruined American economy. I hope to be sailing somewhere in the Caribbean with my money in offshore banks by then. Max |
US ports turned over to Arabs?
"Peter Wiley" wrote in message . .. I have a mix of US and British machinery and I like it. But it's all old. When I go to buy a new lathe or milling machine for my people at work, I buy one made in Taiwan or China. They aren't as elegant or as well finished, but they cut metal just fine and the accuracy is satisfactory. Within the past three years I've purchased a cabinet saw, a wood lathe, a larger band saw, and several other smaller machines, such as belt sanders, planer, jointer, and the like. Each Taiwanese. I searched for American-built counterparts, but nothing came close in either price or quality for the same money. It's as if nobody stateside cares. But they will---mark my word. It didn't have to be that way, but it is. Ditto for vehicles. Almost nobody in Australia would buy an imported US made vehicle in preference to a Japanese or even Korean made one. I'm amazed anyone in *America* would buy a US-built vehicle over a far eastern example. Some still do, and those same folks raise hell with me for buying foreign. But the numbers are slipping in favor of the imports. Toyota's Camry is the #1 selling sedan of its size range here now. The next three are comprised of two imports and an American. Max |
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