"a.a.t." wrote
Mr. Oz, I am respectfully asking if you would kindly explain what causes
you to describe Los Angeles in such terms? Granted, as every mega
metropolis, Los Angeles has it's ugly areas, and granted, Los Angeles
is not like our European capitals with gracious architecture and tree
lined boulevards. However..........

Just what areas of Los Angeles were you in? ...

Yes! I'll bet he never visited beautiful downtown Compton - my home town. g

"Maxprop" wrote
The inspection of containers here is a sore subject. Many are angry because
they are not inspected. My personal belief is that a thorough inspection of
all incoming containers is not feasible or practical. ....

I think that's Ozzy's point. No *thorough* inspections of containers *or people*
is feasible, so why bother with cursory inspections that cannot forestall a
terrorist attack? If one has the resources and connections to aquire a WMD then
one can certainly sneak it past customs inspectors' brief partial inspections
the same as cocaine and illegal aliens get imported every day. Similarly, if
one has the resources and contacts to import drugs or aliens or WMDs, then one
can create a credible identity and get past the cursory but insulting entry
checks. Might as well save the $billions and make everybody welcome.

Besides, there were studies done back in the old war to determine how much the
USA would be hurt by the loss of a few major cities. The answer is "not much".
Look at 9/11. Stock market took a little dip (it was dropping anyway) then
business said ho-hum and back to work.

OzOne wrote
as isolationism becomes a reality.

It'd be bad enough if it ended there. I understand that German citizens are
required to keep their government informed of their whereabouts at all times
much as sex offenders are now required to do in the US. It's just a matter of
time ......

This is not merely restricted to your country Jl.... I have also toned down
my air travel in Canada. It's just plain ridiculous at times..... they
consider a nail clipper a lethal weapon!! I had to bite my tongue to refrain
from pointing out that I could beat 3/4 of the passengers on the flight into
a coma with my bare hands before I would consider deploying my "lethal nail
clipper"! I bet 4 men with Navy Seals training could take over a plane in
very little time with no weapons at all.

I can understand and respect proactive security measures..... but what they
are implementing is beyond bordering on ridiculous and I believe it is
nothing more than a facade.

The requirements for travel to the USA reeks of information gathering and
infringement of privacy... not to mention a gross trampling of individual
freedoms.

The very name "Homeland Security" resonates pre cold war Russia / Nazi
Germany.

CM

"jlrogers" wrote in message
. com...
For thirty years I traveled every week in the US by air. Sometimes 3
cities a week. I gave it up in 2004 because of 'Homeland Security." I no
longer fly because of the "security." I will not be treated in the
degrading and officious manner that is now imposed on flying passangers.
With my temperment, it would just be a matter of time before I decked one
of those officious *******s.




"Capt.Mooron" wrote in message
news:VIuLf.2314$M52.1274@edtnps89...

"Maxprop" wrote in message

Certainly, but the US sits on his nearby southern border. Jakarta
doesn't. I enter Canada from two to five times per year, and its
disappointing that the border constraints are in place, but that won't
stop me. Petty bureaucracies exist in nearly every place in the world,
and unless you choose to become a self-isolationist you simply deal with
them and go about your business.

Seems to me you assume that because you find Canada worth visiting
repeatitly... I should feel the same way about the USA. I don't..... and
you shouldn't take that personally... get all insulted, and claim I'm
anti American.


But this really has nothing to do with Moroon's inconvenience or his
principles. He loves to grind the anti-US axe with those of us here
from the US. So does Ozzy. It seems to be their cyber recreational
pleasure of late. And we'd be remiss if we didn't call them on
it--hell, they'd find no pleasure at all in a one-sided diatribe with no
opposition. So in my own way I'm making it possible for you, Moroon and
Ozzy to enjoy your time on ASA. You can thank me now or later.

Max.... if you consider getting fingerprinted merely an inconvenience...
we just have to agree to disagree. I can supply security documentation
and references... but this is not adequate to satisfy the US Customs. If
I view their requirements as beyond that which I am willing to
provide.... how can you state that as anti American? Does my personal
decision offend your national pride? What makes you think I am short
changing myself because I refuse to comply with a ridiculous request? I
wouldn't travel to any country requiring that level of infringement on my
privacy and freedoms.

CM

I lived in LA for years. It's a pit.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"a.a.t." wrote in message
...



On Sat. Feb. 18, 2006, 3:41pm (PST+19)
OzOne posted:

".......Flew in from that sewer called Los Angeles......"


and on Thu, Feb 23, 2006, 10:17am (PST + 19)
OzOne posted:

"..Unfortunately, you also have sewers like Los Angeles........"


Mr. Oz, I am respectfully asking if you would kindly explain what causes
you to describe Los Angeles in such terms? Granted, as every mega
metropolis, Los Angeles has it's ugly areas, and granted, Los Angeles
is not like our European capitals with gracious architecture and tree
lined boulevards. However..........

Just what areas of Los Angeles were you in? And perhaps you were
limited in time and did not have the time to see areas that would not
cause you to compare them to effluvia?

I really would appreciate your answer, as your reaction is not the
usual one that I hear from other visitors to Los Angeles.

Thanks.........a.a.t.

Amen, to every one of your points. Thank God, I was not born any later.

"Capt.Mooron" wrote in message
news:YvGLf.1188$dg.1146@clgrps13...
This is not merely restricted to your country Jl.... I have also toned
down my air travel in Canada. It's just plain ridiculous at times.....
they consider a nail clipper a lethal weapon!! I had to bite my tongue to
refrain from pointing out that I could beat 3/4 of the passengers on the
flight into a coma with my bare hands before I would consider deploying my
"lethal nail clipper"! I bet 4 men with Navy Seals training could take
over a plane in very little time with no weapons at all.

I can understand and respect proactive security measures..... but what
they are implementing is beyond bordering on ridiculous and I believe it
is nothing more than a facade.

The requirements for travel to the USA reeks of information gathering and
infringement of privacy... not to mention a gross trampling of individual
freedoms.

The very name "Homeland Security" resonates pre cold war Russia / Nazi
Germany.

CM

"jlrogers" wrote in message
. com...
For thirty years I traveled every week in the US by air. Sometimes 3
cities a week. I gave it up in 2004 because of 'Homeland Security." I
no longer fly because of the "security." I will not be treated in the
degrading and officious manner that is now imposed on flying passangers.
With my temperment, it would just be a matter of time before I decked one
of those officious *******s.




"Capt.Mooron" wrote in message
news:VIuLf.2314$M52.1274@edtnps89...

"Maxprop" wrote in message

Certainly, but the US sits on his nearby southern border. Jakarta
doesn't. I enter Canada from two to five times per year, and its
disappointing that the border constraints are in place, but that won't
stop me. Petty bureaucracies exist in nearly every place in the world,
and unless you choose to become a self-isolationist you simply deal
with them and go about your business.

Seems to me you assume that because you find Canada worth visiting
repeatitly... I should feel the same way about the USA. I don't.....
and you shouldn't take that personally... get all insulted, and claim
I'm anti American.


But this really has nothing to do with Moroon's inconvenience or his
principles. He loves to grind the anti-US axe with those of us here
from the US. So does Ozzy. It seems to be their cyber recreational
pleasure of late. And we'd be remiss if we didn't call them on
it--hell, they'd find no pleasure at all in a one-sided diatribe with
no opposition. So in my own way I'm making it possible for you, Moroon
and Ozzy to enjoy your time on ASA. You can thank me now or later.

Max.... if you consider getting fingerprinted merely an inconvenience...
we just have to agree to disagree. I can supply security documentation
and references... but this is not adequate to satisfy the US Customs. If
I view their requirements as beyond that which I am willing to
provide.... how can you state that as anti American? Does my personal
decision offend your national pride? What makes you think I am short
changing myself because I refuse to comply with a ridiculous request? I
wouldn't travel to any country requiring that level of infringement on
my privacy and freedoms.

CM

OzOne wrote in message ...
On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 01:14:08 GMT, "Maxprop"
scribbled thusly:



Eaxactly my point.
Every non US citizen is subject to the most rigorous scrutiny yet 95%
of containers are left untouched....homeland security is a sham.

Let me play the devil's advocate here for a moment: So we've established
that examining incoming containers is not feasible. For that reason, is
it
reasonable to simply ignore all other aspects of homeland security that
ARE
feasible, such as clearing individuals for entry?

Max

T's feasible....just look at the number of people employed to check
baggage, people and crdentials at every airport in the US.
Thing is, putting that same number of people into checking containers
has little political advantage because Joe Public won't see the work
being done and be able to wrap himself in that warm fuzzy security
blanket.


Have you ever looked at a shipping container packed full of, say, boxes with
electronics? There might be literally hundreds or thousands of cardboard
cartons in a single container packed wall-to-wall, floor-to-ceiling. How
does an inspector check each carton to be sure it contains what the label
specifies? A single carton could contains plastique or the makings of a
dirty bomb. Are you going to open each and every one? Some containers are
packed with loose items, and would be even more difficult to inspect. From
a cost effectivity standpoint, it isn't feasible to inspect the contents of
every container entering this country.


Ever thought that the level of personal inspection has lulled most
passengers into a very false sense of security so they are now not on
the lookout for stuff happening onboard?

I think about it every time I fly. But there is little or nothing the
average passenger can do if he spots something or someone suspicious once
airborne. Getting lulled into a false sense of security has obviously
helped the airlines avoid a plunge into the abyss of financial ruin. Most
of them, anyhow.

If, however, we abandon the personal inspections, what prevents a repeat of
9/11?

Max

OzOne wrote in message ...
On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 01:26:29 GMT, "Maxprop"
scribbled thusly:


OzOne wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 21:37:49 GMT, "Maxprop"
scribbled thusly:


Nope....
Homeland security is just smoke, mirrors and inconvenience.

Maybe that's all it takes to prevent another attack on the order of
9/11/01.

Bwaaahahhahahhahahhahhahaaaa!
You've swallowed that line?

What line? HS doesn't claim to be smoke and mirrors. That's your take,
not
theirs. And the evidence supports HS, not you. The US has been free of
terrorist attack since HS instituted its programs. HS may have absolutely
nothing to do with that, but you can't prove it doesn't. So your argument
is invalid.

The line that homeland security is the reason for no more
attacks....What was the reason in all the years prior to 911?

You seem to have conveniently ignored the other, failed al Qaeda attempt to
level the WTC some years before 9/11.


You're an ex-cop. How would you deal with terrorism in Australia?

Heh heh, there is none.
Maybe if Little Johnnie Howard keeps Americanising us...we will.

As I expected--you won't answer the question. Criticism without
alternative
suggestions is the mark of a chronic complainer, not a problem solver.
Save
your breath--we have plenty of those here already.

Max


Max, again you miss the point....First step toward stopping terrorism
in Oz would be to throw out a Govt that is leading us further into
current American political thinking....the out for you is the same,
**** off a Govt that is intolerant and interfering and try to smooth
over the huge rifts that have been opened up.

Hell, Iraq after all the interfering is now teetering on the very
brink of civil war...

I can't argue against your points--they have merit--but I still ask: if
your country faces terrorist activity, how would you deal with it? Like it
or not, we are where we are, and our government isn't likely to change its
course. Given that, we have to deal with terrorism effectively, or watch
another 3000 (or more) countrymen die periodically to terrorist attacks on
these shores.

Max

Max

"Mys Terry" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 01:26:29 GMT, "Maxprop" wrote:
What line? HS doesn't claim to be smoke and mirrors. That's your take,
not
theirs. And the evidence supports HS, not you. The US has been free of
terrorist attack since HS instituted its programs. HS may have absolutely
nothing to do with that, but you can't prove it doesn't. So your argument
is invalid.


My house was always very cold. This winter, I painted the house red, and
closed
all the open windows. Yep... Painting my house red sure made it a lot
warmer!

Unlikely, but since you failed to isolate your variables you, too, have no
evidence that the paint didn't raise the temp in your house as much or more
than closing the windows.

Max

OzOne wrote in message ...
On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 01:47:35 GMT, "Maxprop"
scribbled thusly:


"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
m...


Ummm, Max, it's not penalizing Mooron at all. It's a big world out
there, lotta interesting places.

Certainly, but the US sits on his nearby southern border. Jakarta
doesn't.
I enter Canada from two to five times per year, and its disappointing that
the border constraints are in place, but that won't stop me. Petty
bureaucracies exist in nearly every place in the world, and unless you
choose to become a self-isolationist you simply deal with them and go
about
your business.

But this really has nothing to do with Moroon's inconvenience or his
principles. He loves to grind the anti-US axe with those of us here from
the US. So does Ozzy. It seems to be their cyber recreational pleasure
of
late. And we'd be remiss if we didn't call them on it--hell, they'd find
no
pleasure at all in a one-sided diatribe with no opposition. So in my own
way I'm making it possible for you, Moroon and Ozzy to enjoy your time on
ASA. You can thank me now or later.

Max


Sensitive little sucker!

Don't be confused, I am and never have been anti American..though I
tended toward that when the American people re elected the guy who has
put the US in a position from which it is unlikely to recover.

I think you're being melodramatic, Ozzy. W has left us with a major
cluster****, and we won't be finding our way clear of it for some
time--possibly years. But time heals everything. WWI and WWII both came to
an end, and so will this fiasco. People tire of conflicts, especially old,
threadbare ones. The day will come when no one has the energy or the will
to continue to fight this war, and then it will disappear. Doomspeakers
said the same thing about Vietnam, but today American soldiers, who fought
there, visit the place and sit down over tea with those they were shooting
at just 25 years earlier.


I am, and have been since Bush was elected, firmly anti US Govt.

Well, you're just a rank novice at it then. There are those of us who've
despised the US government for decades. The line forms at the rear, around
the corner.

Max