State of the Onion Address
 

Keep him away from open flames!

"May the bright flame of his enthusiam never be extinguished"

J. Goebbels 1939

"Scout" wrote in message
...
wrote
{snip}
I am so bad with people {snip}

My partner (teaches physics) is an engineer and is as you say, bad with
people. He also has a problem with gas. Within 5 minutes of meeting a new
person, he typically farts loudly on them, and then, without a trace of
shame, he just smiles. He's brilliant, but I suspect he has a touch of
asbergers!
Scout

State of the Onion Address
 

State of the Onion Address
 

I am so bad with people {snip}


Scout wrote:
My partner (teaches physics) is an engineer and is as you say, bad with
people. He also has a problem with gas. Within 5 minutes of meeting a new
person, he typically farts loudly on them, and then, without a trace of
shame, he just smiles.

Is there something wrong with doing this? Is it the smiling
or the farting that bothers people?

DSK

State of the Onion Address
 

On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 22:52:12 GMT, "Bob Crantz"
wrote:


"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 19:23:33 GMT, "Bob Crantz"
wrote:

Bunch snipped

I know many people who have those skills. Most are unemployed. Those
skills
are not advanced math. Those not unemployed are now paralegals or legal
secretaries.

Once again, you demonstrate that those that you know do not make up a
statistically relevant sample. Those skills are in big demand where I
live.

If those I know do not make a statistically significant sample, then why do
the ones you know do?

I'm not trying to define a population with my isolated sample. you
are. I'm only challenging your definition.

Do you live in Ohio?

No. I live down the road from Dickie Scruggs and in a state that used
to have a single county with lawsuits per capita at approximately 1000
times the national average from venue setting based on a particular
product being sold at the local drugstore (even though no one in the
county has been damaged). With dirt poor jurors driving $50,000 cars.
That was before the first, rather feeble, attempt at tort reform. But
it is a start.



. I had to hire against others seeking the same skill level and
we all had a tough time. Those still in the game continue to have
difficulty

If you increase the pay, they will come.

Eventually. However, if the basic skills are not already there you
will be out of business by the time they get there. And increasing
pay past the level that the martket can support will only send work
overseas, eliminating value add entities in this country, a big
problem.

Wealth, as defined by increases in GDP or GNP is only created by those
who take someting that is mined or grown and add value to it. Lawyers
do not do that, generally just facilitate a forced, often invalid,
transfer and skim some as it goes by.

You don't see the Federal Gov't subsidizing the growth of lawyers do you?

Absolutely, the Federal Gov't created the environment that they
thrive in, made up the rules of the game so to speak. From there it
was self fulfilling. And most of those who participated in that
creation were lawyers themselves.

Why must the growth of engineers and scientists be subsidized?

Did I say that? I don't believe they, the farmers, the airlines, the
car companies or anyone else should be subsidized.

Wouldn't outstanding pay make more great people go into engineering?

Is there something wrong with the pay structure?

If there is an engineering shortage, then why isn't pay very high?

The starting pay is relatively high. And then, like any other
profession it becomes variable based on direction. Entreprenuers make
more. Those that leave the realm of individual contributor make more.
The best of the breed make more.

Starting RN's make more than starting engineers. There's a shortage of RN's.
Where is the shortage of engineers?

Depends, once again on market area. I have two sisters who are in or
have been in the nursing profession One used to teach nurses. It
does not seem to be a profession where the stress/satisfaction
relationship is terribly favorable for entry.





Today, by autocad. Back then, a very large framing square.

Not quite right in either time frame. I've worked in both.





Frank

State of the Onion Address
 

On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 22:45:18 GMT, "Bob Crantz"
wrote:


"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 19:13:55 GMT, "Bob Crantz"
wrote:


"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
...
On 2 Feb 2006 08:03:47 -0800, wrote:

Part of the problem is the way math and science is taught as if they
were obscure theoretical subjects with little application to real life
and this is because most teachers do not understand the subjects. This
is even the case in college where the profs are great at theory but
have no understanding of how it all applies in real life.

That's true but I think it is getting better. I was approached by a
professor who taught metalurgy of casting and joining to come to his
class and present a case study. Anything that I wanted that was real
world and practical. My case study was on the difficulty in
maintaining the appropriate post machining flatness with cast iron saw
tables. I presented the process from the foundry to the consumer and
let them determine what they would do to improve the process. The
students took to it with great enthusiasm. Although I provided them
with a video of the process, some came to the factory to observe. The
professor says he does that a lot and so do others in the Engineering
Department.

I can't remember anything like that happening when I was in school.

Now, if we could only keep the jobs for these students in this
country!

Frank


Try annealing or cooling in a magnetic field.



See there you go. Anyone can come up with a solution if cost is not
an issue. I said practical.

The solutions lie in the gating methods, shake out procedure, the
machining process itself. These are things that don't add cost.
Requires education and experience to come up with practical solutions.

No, it usually requires trial and error and a large scrap bin.

If education and experience were really a factor, you wouldn't have had the
problem in the first place.

Education gives you the ability to anticipate problems you haven't
experienced, experience gives you a quiver of solutions to problems.


Problems arise due to lack of foresight, education or experience (actually
poor management is the root of most problems). Most of the ways problems are
solved is through trial, error and luck.

Not a problem, Bob, a condition. A problem is when something changes
in an established process. A condition is your start state when you
want to achieve an end, maybe that has not been possible yet. And yes
there could be a lot of trial and error to get there. Education and
experience is what limits the amount of trial and error to get to the
end. And provides criteria for prioritizing the experiments. Makes
the process of improvement efficient.

If I currently can hold (by statistical capability study) .008"
diagonally measured flatness and I want to hold .004", I don't have a
problem, I have a current state and an improvement goal.

The only place education and experience really counts is for lawyers in the
courtroom. For that they are richly rewarded. An engineer with 30 or 40
years experience is over the hill.

Amen!

State of the Onion Address
 

Frank, it looks like your experience is in manufacturing and process
control. My background is in R&D. In R&D there's established processes but
the outcomes are not known. There's a bit more trial and error and luck.
Just because something works a few times doesn't mean it can get built in
volumes, or will ever work again. The manufacturing guys a ver important.
They're the ones that actually make the money for the company.

Amen!
"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 22:45:18 GMT, "Bob Crantz"
wrote:


"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 19:13:55 GMT, "Bob Crantz"
wrote:


"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
m...
On 2 Feb 2006 08:03:47 -0800, wrote:

Part of the problem is the way math and science is taught as if they
were obscure theoretical subjects with little application to real life
and this is because most teachers do not understand the subjects.
This
is even the case in college where the profs are great at theory but
have no understanding of how it all applies in real life.

That's true but I think it is getting better. I was approached by a
professor who taught metalurgy of casting and joining to come to his
class and present a case study. Anything that I wanted that was real
world and practical. My case study was on the difficulty in
maintaining the appropriate post machining flatness with cast iron saw
tables. I presented the process from the foundry to the consumer and
let them determine what they would do to improve the process. The
students took to it with great enthusiasm. Although I provided them
with a video of the process, some came to the factory to observe. The
professor says he does that a lot and so do others in the Engineering
Department.

I can't remember anything like that happening when I was in school.

Now, if we could only keep the jobs for these students in this
country!

Frank


Try annealing or cooling in a magnetic field.



See there you go. Anyone can come up with a solution if cost is not
an issue. I said practical.

The solutions lie in the gating methods, shake out procedure, the
machining process itself. These are things that don't add cost.
Requires education and experience to come up with practical solutions.

No, it usually requires trial and error and a large scrap bin.

If education and experience were really a factor, you wouldn't have had
the
problem in the first place.

Education gives you the ability to anticipate problems you haven't
experienced, experience gives you a quiver of solutions to problems.


Problems arise due to lack of foresight, education or experience (actually
poor management is the root of most problems). Most of the ways problems
are
solved is through trial, error and luck.

Not a problem, Bob, a condition. A problem is when something changes
in an established process. A condition is your start state when you
want to achieve an end, maybe that has not been possible yet. And yes
there could be a lot of trial and error to get there. Education and
experience is what limits the amount of trial and error to get to the
end. And provides criteria for prioritizing the experiments. Makes
the process of improvement efficient.

If I currently can hold (by statistical capability study) .008"
diagonally measured flatness and I want to hold .004", I don't have a
problem, I have a current state and an improvement goal.

The only place education and experience really counts is for lawyers in
the
courtroom. For that they are richly rewarded. An engineer with 30 or 40
years experience is over the hill.

Amen!

State of the Onion Address
 

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 22:52:12 GMT, "Bob Crantz"
wrote:


"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 19:23:33 GMT, "Bob Crantz"
wrote:

Bunch snipped

I know many people who have those skills. Most are unemployed. Those
skills
are not advanced math. Those not unemployed are now paralegals or legal
secretaries.

Once again, you demonstrate that those that you know do not make up a
statistically relevant sample. Those skills are in big demand where I
live.

I said "I know people who are.."

I did not say "I know all people" or "Everyone". I do know many people with
those skills who are now unemployed.


If those I know do not make a statistically significant sample, then why
do
the ones you know do?

I'm not trying to define a population with my isolated sample. you
are. I'm only challenging your definition.

Do you live in Ohio?

No. I live down the road from Dickie Scruggs and in a state that used
to have a single county with lawsuits per capita at approximately 1000
times the national average from venue setting based on a particular
product being sold at the local drugstore (even though no one in the
county has been damaged). With dirt poor jurors driving $50,000 cars.
That was before the first, rather feeble, attempt at tort reform. But
it is a start.

Mississippi?




. I had to hire against others seeking the same skill level and
we all had a tough time. Those still in the game continue to have
difficulty

If you increase the pay, they will come.

Eventually. However, if the basic skills are not already there you
will be out of business by the time they get there. And increasing
pay past the level that the martket can support will only send work
overseas, eliminating value add entities in this country, a big
problem.

Yes, but your initial assertion was that these value added employees were
hard to find in the first place. Was that because they were previously
overpaid? If you don't pay people enough for the work they put into a job,
they won't work in that field.

An engineer today compared to thirty years ago now does the work of his
secretary (MS Office), the work of a draftsman (Autocad), the work of a
mathematician (MatLab), the work of a computer engineer (Just running the
PC) plus his own engineering work.

Has the pay increased in relation to this great increase in productivity?


Wealth, as defined by increases in GDP or GNP is only created by those
who take someting that is mined or grown and add value to it. Lawyers
do not do that, generally just facilitate a forced, often invalid,
transfer and skim some as it goes by.

Does a patent attorney create wealth?




You don't see the Federal Gov't subsidizing the growth of lawyers do you?

Absolutely, the Federal Gov't created the environment that they
thrive in, made up the rules of the game so to speak. From there it
was self fulfilling. And most of those who participated in that
creation were lawyers themselves.

You're absolutely correct. Lawyers can sue the gov't for treble damages.
Amen!

That is why it pays to be a lawyer.


Why must the growth of engineers and scientists be subsidized?

Did I say that? I don't believe they, the farmers, the airlines, the
car companies or anyone else should be subsidized.

I agree. Even if there was an engineer shortage I would be against subsidy.

Wouldn't outstanding pay make more great people go into engineering?

Is there something wrong with the pay structure?

Yes, but that is not the fundamental problem. I think it is the ways
companies are managed, but not all companies.


If there is an engineering shortage, then why isn't pay very high?

The starting pay is relatively high. And then, like any other
profession it becomes variable based on direction. Entreprenuers make
more.

Because they run a business.

Those that leave the realm of individual contributor make more.
The best of the breed make more.

More than lawyers at the same level?

Starting RN's make more than starting engineers. There's a shortage of
RN's.
Where is the shortage of engineers?

Depends, once again on market area. I have two sisters who are in or
have been in the nursing profession One used to teach nurses. It
does not seem to be a profession where the stress/satisfaction
relationship is terribly favorable for entry.

So the pay is higher.






Today, by autocad. Back then, a very large framing square.

Not quite right in either time frame. I've worked in both.





Frank

State of the Onion Address
 

"DSK" wrote in message
.. .
I am so bad with people {snip}


Scout wrote:
My partner (teaches physics) is an engineer and is as you say, bad with
people. He also has a problem with gas. Within 5 minutes of meeting a new
person, he typically farts loudly on them, and then, without a trace of
shame, he just smiles.

Is there something wrong with doing this? Is it the smiling or the farting
that bothers people?

It's probably the combination of behaviors that strikes others as odd. He
actually thinks there is nothing wrong with farting loudly in front of any
and all. It doesn't matter if it's the Pope or the Queen of England,
provided the farter takes the blame and does not allow others to wonder if
the Queen had beans last night.
Scout

State of the Onion Address
 

"Scout" wrote in message
...
"DSK" wrote in message
.. .
I am so bad with people {snip}


Scout wrote:
My partner (teaches physics) is an engineer and is as you say, bad with
people. He also has a problem with gas. Within 5 minutes of meeting a
new person, he typically farts loudly on them, and then, without a trace
of shame, he just smiles.

Is there something wrong with doing this? Is it the smiling or the
farting that bothers people?

It's probably the combination of behaviors that strikes others as odd. He
actually thinks there is nothing wrong with farting loudly in front of any
and all. It doesn't matter if it's the Pope or the Queen of England,
provided the farter takes the blame and does not allow others to wonder if
the Queen had beans last night.
Scout

btw - I took this same fellow sailing with me on an overnighter and I paid
for that decision. At around 2 AM I woke up to hear him say, "man, you're
not gonna like this." And he was right!
Scout