BoatBanter.com - State of the Onion Address

BoatBanter.com (https://www.boatbanter.com/)

- ASA (https://www.boatbanter.com/asa/)

- - State of the Onion Address (https://www.boatbanter.com/asa/65996-state-onion-address.html)

State of the Onion Address

Unfortunately, I was in my car last night and happen to hear several minutes
of Monkey Boy Bush delivering his State of the Onion Address.

It was just as I expected, Big Government offering solutions to all of the
problems it created in the first place.

Even more, Bush left out no group to benefit from the generous Treasury of
the People.

Some points that made no sense:

*Bush called for hydrogen powered cars. It takes more energy to create
hydrogen than it produces in cars, so there is a net energy deficit over
petroleum products. Unless electricity from Atomic Power Plants is used to
create the hydrogen.

*Why is corn, whip grass and other organic material even considered as a
fuel? Biomass is highly inefficient to use. This is obviously a subsidy to
agriculture.

*Why is he calling for more math and science majors? For the amount of work
that goes into getting a math/science/engineering degree the return is
skimpy. The starting salaries are high, but they don't go up much. Smart
kids should be studying law, maybe medicine, business administration or
multi level marketing. Good lawyers make 350K$+ , great engineers make less
than half. By encouring people to go into science/math fields, you are
creating a glut of labor and keeping salaries down. Ever hear of massive
layoffs of lawyers?

*Special tax laws have given larger corporations a distinct advantage in the
health insurance arena. They can pool the risk of the insured and offer
lower health insurance policies. Small companies can't do this. Individuals
can't do this. The market is distorted and favors people who work for large
companies. These people are not your risk takers or innovators. In fact,
large corporations are institutionalized collections of psycopaths. Now Bush
wants more breaks favor big business. This will only act to increase the
degree of psycopathic behavior. Why can't everyone be treated equally
regardless of who they work for? Where is the level playing field? Why must
those most disadvantaged be made to suffer even more at the hands of
government?

Bush went on and on about more stuff showing he is clearly lacking basic
principles, especially Conservative ones.

If Bush doesn't wind up in hell, I hope that Ronald Reagan and Barry
Goldwater will slap him silly at the pearly gates.

AMEN!!!!

State of the Onion Address

Bob:
You dissapoint me. The last thing this country needs is more lawyers.
At least a degree in engineering would teach people to think rationally
about THINGS instead of how to scew people. Do you really argue for
fewer science degrees? Look at the starting salaries for physics and
engineering types, very high and they just go higher as they go into
management. Engineers build the economy while lawyers are a net drain
on the economy.

As far as hydrogen goes, the best way to generate it is to use low
intensity replaceable sources such as wind or wave power. Use it to
make CH4 from the Co2 in air and water. Methane is far better to run
fuel cells than H2 and the net carbon gain to the atmosphere is zero.
This also eliminates the need to build power lines to all these small
distributed replaceable sources. Instead, just pressurize (liquefy)
thje methane and truck it out every week or so just like they do with
oil wells.

Your emotionalism over Bush has gotten in the way of your reasoning.

State of the Onion Address

wrote in message
ups.com...
Bob:
You dissapoint me. The last thing this country needs is more lawyers.
At least a degree in engineering would teach people to think rationally
about THINGS instead of how to scew people. Do you really argue for
fewer science degrees? Look at the starting salaries for physics and
engineering types, very high and they just go higher as they go into
management. Engineers build the economy while lawyers are a net drain
on the economy.

A good lawyer makes more than a great engineer. Society values lawyers more.
A lawyer can make you rich if you are a victim, or cause you to lose it all
if you are negligent. Lawyers are the feedback mechanism for poorly
engineered products. An engineer can create some new ringtones for your
phone or cause the lights to blink in some new sequence. All the popular TV
shows are about lawyers. Babes can be lawyers, but very rarely are
engineers.

As far as hydrogen goes, the best way to generate it is to use low
intensity replaceable sources such as wind or wave power.

In whose back yard? Lawyers will stop this if it ruins a view, harms a
species, endangers commerce, or is a nuisance.

Use it to
make CH4 from the Co2 in air and water.

Why not just drill a small diameter hole in the ground and pump out methane?
When you visualize wave/tidal generators think of oil platforms end to end
from horizon to horizon.

Methane is far better to run
fuel cells than H2 and the net carbon gain to the atmosphere is zero.

Only if the methane comes from the atmosphere. However, there is a net
thermal gain to the atmosphere, double that of just pumping methane out of
the ground.

This also eliminates the need to build power lines to all these small
distributed replaceable sources. Instead, just pressurize (liquefy)
thje methane and truck it out every week or so just like they do with
oil wells.

By economy of scale it is far cheaper to have centralized power production
and run power lines.

Your emotionalism over Bush has gotten in the way of your reasoning.

I believe your order is wrong. First I reasoned about Bush, then I became
emotional.

The less engineers, the better. That means more work and pay for existing
engineers.

I also encourage more people to smoke heavily. It will reduced the burden on
entitlement programs for senoirs by reducing lifespan.

Amen!

State of the Onion Address

"Bob Crantz" wrote
*Why is he calling for more math and science majors?

Because virtually every school district in the US, with PhD'd administrators
who know zero about technology preparation, are ok with vocational schools
filled with special ed students and behavioral problems. The real
technicians of tomorrow will hold engineering degrees. Everyone else will
just be pumping too much grease into zirc fittings because they can't read
the spec sheets.
Ken Gray, researcher at Penn State Univ, preaches against the misuse and
abuse of vocational schools by their sending districts, and argues that the
vocational schools should be populated by the middle 50% (by academic
performance) of students. The upper (gifted) and the lower (learning
disabled) should be left in the hands of the special education teachers, and
not in the hands of the engineers and technicians who've been hired to teach
their expertise. Sending schools do tend to keep the gifted students, but
purge their classes of problematic kids, rationalizing that kids who can't
read and won't do homework can learn hands-on how to build a working robot
or program a CNC milling machine.
I contend that a competent HVAC technician is better educated than most
guidance counselors!
Amen!
Scout

State of the Onion Address

"Scout" wrote in message
...
"Bob Crantz" wrote
*Why is he calling for more math and science majors?

Because virtually every school district in the US, with PhD'd
administrators who know zero about technology preparation, are ok with
vocational schools filled with special ed students and behavioral
problems. The real technicians of tomorrow will hold engineering degrees.
Everyone else will just be pumping too much grease into zirc fittings
because they can't read the spec sheets.
Ken Gray, researcher at Penn State Univ, preaches against the misuse and
abuse of vocational schools by their sending districts, and argues that
the vocational schools should be populated by the middle 50% (by academic
performance) of students. The upper (gifted) and the lower (learning
disabled) should be left in the hands of the special education teachers,
and not in the hands of the engineers and technicians who've been hired to
teach their expertise. Sending schools do tend to keep the gifted
students, but purge their classes of problematic kids, rationalizing that
kids who can't read and won't do homework can learn hands-on how to build
a working robot or program a CNC milling machine.
I contend that a competent HVAC technician is better educated than most
guidance counselors!
Amen!
Scout

Funny you mention this. I recently attended a charter school meeting where
the teachers discussed how they taught mathematics. Many parents were there.
Everyone sat around nodding to the importance of math education (like a
mantra). Yet, of the parents I knew, not one used math beyond addition and
subtraction in their jobs. I asked a few teachers to tell me what
mathematics is in one sentence. They couldn't.

Most learning comes from the home, with the school system being a
facilitator. These kids would learn mathematics better if they saw the
importance of it applied in life. Where will they see that?

Mathematics skills, to be kept must be practiced regularly.

Then, if one works hard at acquiring and maintaining the skills, they are
usually branded as an "overachiever".

First one is pushed to accomplish something difficult, then when it is done
they are earmarked with some dysfunction and pushed into the corner.

When I tell kids on how to become successful, I tell the to look for
loopholes and how to beat the system. Travel the road less travelled, think
out of the box. I even go as far to say that crime may pay and point out
many successful white collar and organizational criminals. Then I point out
that lawyers do all this and more legally!

Become a lawyer - people will fear and respect you!

Become a mathematician - people will laugh!

Amen!

Bob Crantz, preparing youth today to run the world tomorrow!

State of the Onion Address

200 years from now, nobody will remember the lawyers. The
mathematicians will be remembered as will the scientists and engineers.
If you care about society, you would push for fewer lawyers who are an
economic drain and for more scientists and engineers who cause economic
growth.
I hire and fire lawyers and think they are nothing more than hired
guns, Few of them are capable of any new thoughts. I am MS Physics,
MSEE, multiple patents and small business owner so I think I know what
I am talking about.

State of the Onion Address

Furthermore, I have a brother who is a lawyer and a sister who is a
lawyer. Both of them are stressed to the max and have no freedom at
all. I have far more freedom than them and can go sailing whenever I
please. Become a lawyer and you are just a well-off slave. Become an
engineer and you can start a hi tek company and do your own thing. In
my life I am torn between the three things I love, my work (which is
really play), sailing, and family. If you become a lawyer, you have no
choice, all you can do is work till you have a heart attack. My
lawyer friends bring their kids to my lab to show them that they dont
have to become lawyers but can become self supporting and do cool stuff
that is fun.

State of the Onion Address

As I was typing, I heard POP, POP which I recognized as high voltage
sparks and went into the other room where my technician was working on
an electron microscope. We spent a few minutes figuring where a cable
had broken down and decided to make a teflon bushing to go around it,
fun, fun. At the same time, I am waiting for a sputter system to pump
down so I can make an entirely new type of x-ray optic. I am excited
every morning when I come to work. Can lawyers say that?

State of the Onion Address

Part of the problem is the way math and science is taught as if they
were obscure theoretical subjects with little application to real life
and this is because most teachers do not understand the subjects. This
is even the case in college where the profs are great at theory but
have no understanding of how it all applies in real life. I have a
turn-of-the-century (1912) college physics text written by Millikan
(yes, that Millikan, you know, the electron charge measurement) and
it's tone is entirely different from the texts I learned from. My
texts were very strong on abstract theory and short on explaining the
real world. Millikans text is a great read explaining in detail how
steam engines work and the detailed thermodynamics behind them. He
explains EM waves and even explains how the spark-gap radio
transmitters of the time worked in great detail.
Today, Math and Physics are taught as if they are entirely theory
neglecting everyday real world problems. How many people have ever
gone around looking at their home appliances looking at the power
rating and figuring out how much it costs to run each one. This
excercise teaches the relation between power and energy and some
practical economics. How many kids have ever figured out how many
calories they burn by running up some stairs? Why doesnt this compare
correctly to the caloric content of food (one of the calorie units is
1000x the other is why).
Last year, I took my 15 yr old son on a long sailing trip during the
school year and had him plotting position, figuring out how leeway
would change our DR position, and doing coastal navigation. These real
world examples give a "feel" for trig relationships that you cannot get
just from books.
A person who know science, math and engineering can read a
psuedo-techie article in the paper and realize when the writer is full
of crap.

State of the Onion Address

wrote in message
ups.com...
As I was typing, I heard POP, POP which I recognized as high voltage
sparks and went into the other room where my technician was working on
an electron microscope. We spent a few minutes figuring where a cable
had broken down and decided to make a teflon bushing to go around it,
fun, fun. At the same time, I am waiting for a sputter system to pump
down so I can make an entirely new type of x-ray optic. I am excited
every morning when I come to work. Can lawyers say that?

I may be one of the few people reading this NG that knows what a sputter
system is.
I know what you're saying, having made an nerd "interest" into a bill paying
business and enjoying it all the way. Designed and built many, many optical
coating systems.
..
Dealt with many lawyers over the years and found that they basically
produced legalized versions of documents I wrote.

Good luck with your optics/coating business. Just don't sniff too much
thorium fluoride.

RCE

State of the Onion Address

On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 14:42:19 GMT, "Bob Crantz"
wrote:

"Scout" wrote in message
...
"Bob Crantz" wrote
*Why is he calling for more math and science majors?

Because virtually every school district in the US, with PhD'd
administrators who know zero about technology preparation, are ok with
vocational schools filled with special ed students and behavioral
problems. The real technicians of tomorrow will hold engineering degrees.
Everyone else will just be pumping too much grease into zirc fittings
because they can't read the spec sheets.
Ken Gray, researcher at Penn State Univ, preaches against the misuse and
abuse of vocational schools by their sending districts, and argues that
the vocational schools should be populated by the middle 50% (by academic
performance) of students. The upper (gifted) and the lower (learning
disabled) should be left in the hands of the special education teachers,
and not in the hands of the engineers and technicians who've been hired to
teach their expertise. Sending schools do tend to keep the gifted
students, but purge their classes of problematic kids, rationalizing that
kids who can't read and won't do homework can learn hands-on how to build
a working robot or program a CNC milling machine.
I contend that a competent HVAC technician is better educated than most
guidance counselors!
Amen!
Scout

Funny you mention this. I recently attended a charter school meeting where
the teachers discussed how they taught mathematics. Many parents were there.
Everyone sat around nodding to the importance of math education (like a
mantra). Yet, of the parents I knew, not one used math beyond addition and
subtraction in their jobs. I asked a few teachers to tell me what
mathematics is in one sentence. They couldn't.

You should expand your circle of parental acquaintences. I ran a
manufacturing plant making a woodworking machinery, had control of
design engineering and just about everyone who worked there used math
past simple addition and subtraction. Including machine operators on
the shop floor who were required to learn advanced metrology,
Geometric Dimensioning and Tolerancing, and statistics for SPC and
DOE. Contributing to value add

Before that I worked for a company that produced offshore oil field
equipment. Ever wonder how the trigonometry to convert the structure
designs to welded reality gets done? By some of those parents you
don't know. Contributing to value add.

Most learning comes from the home, with the school system being a
facilitator. These kids would learn mathematics better if they saw the
importance of it applied in life. Where will they see that?

Mathematics skills, to be kept must be practiced regularly.

Then, if one works hard at acquiring and maintaining the skills, they are
usually branded as an "overachiever".

First one is pushed to accomplish something difficult, then when it is done
they are earmarked with some dysfunction and pushed into the corner.

When I tell kids on how to become successful, I tell the to look for
loopholes and how to beat the system. Travel the road less travelled, think
out of the box. I even go as far to say that crime may pay and point out
many successful white collar and organizational criminals. Then I point out
that lawyers do all this and more legally!

Become a lawyer - people will fear and respect you!

Most people adopt the attitude that it is better to behave in a manner
that you never need a lawyer. The fear is that a circumstantial or
random encounter will put you in the position where the sharks can
start circling. There certainly is no respect for a profession where
the goal is to transfer money from one entity to another and skim 40
percent as it goes by. There is no value added with this process.

The best (or least ethical) of this breed do become wealthy. That is
not the same as garnering respect.

And of course the above is a gross generalization with approrpiate
apologies to those few ethical and productive members of the
profession. I know several.

Become a mathematician - people will laugh!

There is some truth to that. They laughed Demming right out of the
country. And he organized the Japanese to take over the auto and many
other industries. Wonder who laughed last.

Amen!

Bob Crantz, preparing youth today to run the world tomorrow!

And doing a wonderful job

Amen!

Frank

State of the Onion Address

In article ,
Bob Crantz wrote:
Funny you mention this. I recently attended a charter school meeting where
the teachers discussed how they taught mathematics. Many parents were there.
Everyone sat around nodding to the importance of math education (like a
mantra). Yet, of the parents I knew, not one used math beyond addition and
subtraction in their jobs. I asked a few teachers to tell me what
mathematics is in one sentence. They couldn't.

I don't think you can blame the teachers. They're struggling to teach
the basics. I think part of the problem, however, is low
expectations. It's been shown that if you expect more from students,
you tend to get more from them.

Most learning comes from the home, with the school system being a
facilitator. These kids would learn mathematics better if they saw the
importance of it applied in life. Where will they see that?

True in many ways. My pop was an engineer, master machinest, and
inventor. He forced me to learn the multiplication tables, when the
school didn't really press the issue. He also asked me to "help" him
figure out a trig problem of his when I was in grade school. I'll
never forget struggling with the concept, doing the research (which
confounded the math teacher I had when I started asking questions
about sine's, cosines, etc., and finally coming up with a very strange
answer for a dimension (1.00something), which was actually correct.

Mathematics skills, to be kept must be practiced regularly.

1+1 = ummmm...

Then, if one works hard at acquiring and maintaining the skills, they are
usually branded as an "overachiever".

In my case, I'm a chronic under-achiever. :-)

First one is pushed to accomplish something difficult, then when it is done
they are earmarked with some dysfunction and pushed into the corner.

Also true sometimes. My pop had to have a discussion with the teacher
to assure her that it was ok.

When I tell kids on how to become successful, I tell the to look for
loopholes and how to beat the system. Travel the road less travelled, think
out of the box. I even go as far to say that crime may pay and point out
many successful white collar and organizational criminals. Then I point out
that lawyers do all this and more legally!

Sounds like Robert Pirsig.

Become a lawyer - people will fear and respect you!

Correct, according to my mom. :-)

Become a mathematician - people will laugh!

Correct. We always laughed at them in college.

--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com

State of the Onion Address

In article . com,
wrote:
As I was typing, I heard POP, POP which I recognized as high voltage
sparks and went into the other room where my technician was working on
an electron microscope. We spent a few minutes figuring where a cable
had broken down and decided to make a teflon bushing to go around it,
fun, fun. At the same time, I am waiting for a sputter system to pump
down so I can make an entirely new type of x-ray optic. I am excited
every morning when I come to work. Can lawyers say that?

Interesting aside... I used to work for a EM company in the valley in
the early 80s. We had to go to UC Bezerkeley one day to figure out
what was wrong with one of the installed scopes. Turned out some idiot
grad student put a small tree frog in it to have a look. You can
imagine the results. Another time, there was a small fruit fly that
seemed to be destroying crops... called the Med Fly. The company was
asked to take some pictures of one in one of our scopes. That was
cool. Made the first page of the Mercury News. Interesting place to
work.

--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com

State of the Onion Address

In article , RCE wrote:

wrote in message
oups.com...
As I was typing, I heard POP, POP which I recognized as high voltage
sparks and went into the other room where my technician was working on
an electron microscope. We spent a few minutes figuring where a cable
had broken down and decided to make a teflon bushing to go around it,
fun, fun. At the same time, I am waiting for a sputter system to pump
down so I can make an entirely new type of x-ray optic. I am excited
every morning when I come to work. Can lawyers say that?

I may be one of the few people reading this NG that knows what a sputter
system is.
I know what you're saying, having made an nerd "interest" into a bill paying
business and enjoying it all the way. Designed and built many, many optical
coating systems.
.
Dealt with many lawyers over the years and found that they basically
produced legalized versions of documents I wrote.

Good luck with your optics/coating business. Just don't sniff too much
thorium fluoride.

Well, I sure do! I was also around for the first eximer laser ablation
system, currently being marketed as Lasix. I worked at Cooper
Lasersonics in the day.

--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com

State of the Onion Address

wrote in message
oups.com...
200 years from now, nobody will remember the lawyers. The
mathematicians will be remembered as will the scientists and engineers.
If you care about society, you would push for fewer lawyers who are an
economic drain and for more scientists and engineers who cause economic
growth.
I hire and fire lawyers and think they are nothing more than hired
guns, Few of them are capable of any new thoughts. I am MS Physics,
MSEE, multiple patents and small business owner so I think I know what
I am talking about.

What good is any personal recognition after you are dead? It may financially
benefit Dr. M.L. King's family to a great degree, but only very very few
mathematicians and engineers will ever be remembered. Who is Filo
Farnsworth? Frobenius?

I do care about society very much. Lawyers are not engines of economic
drain, just as engineers and scientists are not engines of economic growth.
Their presence assures nothing, it is the economic system in which they
operate that cause or hinder economic growth. Our society rewards lawyers
more and more, engineers and scientists less and less. Since the growth of
lawyers and decrease in engineers, our economy has grown immensely. We need
more lawyers!

I also have MS degrees, multiple patents in a variety of fields and own my
own business. We need more lawyers!

Amen!

State of the Onion Address

wrote in message
ps.com...
Furthermore, I have a brother who is a lawyer and a sister who is a
lawyer. Both of them are stressed to the max and have no freedom at
all. I have far more freedom than them and can go sailing whenever I
please. Become a lawyer and you are just a well-off slave. Become an
engineer and you can start a hi tek company and do your own thing. In
my life I am torn between the three things I love, my work (which is
really play), sailing, and family. If you become a lawyer, you have no
choice, all you can do is work till you have a heart attack. My
lawyer friends bring their kids to my lab to show them that they dont
have to become lawyers but can become self supporting and do cool stuff
that is fun.

Lawyers are in demand, engineers are underemployed.

That is the point!

State of the Onion Address

wrote in message
ups.com...
Part of the problem is the way math and science is taught as if they
were obscure theoretical subjects with little application to real life
and this is because most teachers do not understand the subjects. This
is even the case in college where the profs are great at theory but
have no understanding of how it all applies in real life. I have a
turn-of-the-century (1912) college physics text written by Millikan
(yes, that Millikan, you know, the electron charge measurement) and
it's tone is entirely different from the texts I learned from. My
texts were very strong on abstract theory and short on explaining the
real world. Millikans text is a great read explaining in detail how
steam engines work and the detailed thermodynamics behind them. He
explains EM waves and even explains how the spark-gap radio
transmitters of the time worked in great detail.

Millikan dry labbed the oil drop experiment. :

http://www.fofweb.com/Subscription/S...Pin=ffests0352

"Nobel Laureate physicist Robert Millikan (1868-1953) ignored some
observations in determining the charge on the electron because they violated
his expectations."

That's good lawyering if you ask me. Have the evidence thrown out!

Today, Math and Physics are taught as if they are entirely theory
neglecting everyday real world problems.

Modern physics is based upon ignorance of the real world. Invent a new
particle for every effect or invent dark matter that one can see or measure,
but it comes out in the math!

How many people have ever
gone around looking at their home appliances looking at the power
rating and figuring out how much it costs to run each one.

Unless they can measure/know power factor, not VARS, they can't!

This
excercise teaches the relation between power and energy and some
practical economics. How many kids have ever figured out how many
calories they burn by running up some stairs?

Science has brought them games boys. No need to exercise!

Why doesnt this compare
correctly to the caloric content of food (one of the calorie units is
1000x the other is why).

Last year, I took my 15 yr old son on a long sailing trip during the
school year and had him plotting position, figuring out how leeway
would change our DR position, and doing coastal navigation. These real
world examples give a "feel" for trig relationships that you cannot get
just from books.

You get the same feel from navigating or a text book. The text does give
real world examples. Navigation gives the immediacy, applicability and
practice of trigonometry. It is a more entertaining way to learn.

Did you know entertainers make more than lawyers!

A person who know science, math and engineering can read a
psuedo-techie article in the paper and realize when the writer is full
of crap.

The science crap in the newspaper is not the crap that one should be
worrying about.

Read the front of today's Wall Street Journal. They make a mockery of Bush's
State of the Union initiatives. Then go back and read my original post.

It's the crap that men of power espouse that one should be worried about.

Amen!

State of the Onion Address

25 yr old insulation with 25 KV going thru a sharp bend. You can
imagine the result. We just cut the cable, redid the connection and
increased the radius of the bend.

Normally we do not want adhesion to the piece being sputtereed onto.
If we did, we would use Cr to make gold stick. We want the Au (or Pd,
or Pt, etc.) to be a release layer for a subsequent electroformed layer.

State of the Onion Address

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 14:42:19 GMT, "Bob Crantz"
wrote:

"Scout" wrote in message
...
"Bob Crantz" wrote
*Why is he calling for more math and science majors?

Because virtually every school district in the US, with PhD'd
administrators who know zero about technology preparation, are ok with
vocational schools filled with special ed students and behavioral
problems. The real technicians of tomorrow will hold engineering
degrees.
Everyone else will just be pumping too much grease into zirc fittings
because they can't read the spec sheets.
Ken Gray, researcher at Penn State Univ, preaches against the misuse and
abuse of vocational schools by their sending districts, and argues that
the vocational schools should be populated by the middle 50% (by
academic
performance) of students. The upper (gifted) and the lower (learning
disabled) should be left in the hands of the special education teachers,
and not in the hands of the engineers and technicians who've been hired
to
teach their expertise. Sending schools do tend to keep the gifted
students, but purge their classes of problematic kids, rationalizing
that
kids who can't read and won't do homework can learn hands-on how to
build
a working robot or program a CNC milling machine.
I contend that a competent HVAC technician is better educated than most
guidance counselors!
Amen!
Scout

Funny you mention this. I recently attended a charter school meeting where
the teachers discussed how they taught mathematics. Many parents were
there.
Everyone sat around nodding to the importance of math education (like a
mantra). Yet, of the parents I knew, not one used math beyond addition and
subtraction in their jobs. I asked a few teachers to tell me what
mathematics is in one sentence. They couldn't.

You should expand your circle of parental acquaintences. I ran a
manufacturing plant making a woodworking machinery, had control of
design engineering and just about everyone who worked there used math
past simple addition and subtraction. Including machine operators on
the shop floor who were required to learn advanced metrology,
Geometric Dimensioning and Tolerancing, and statistics for SPC and
DOE. Contributing to value add

I know many people who have those skills. Most are unemployed. Those skills
are not advanced math. Those not unemployed are now paralegals or legal
secretaries.

Before that I worked for a company that produced offshore oil field
equipment. Ever wonder how the trigonometry to convert the structure
designs to welded reality gets done? By some of those parents you
don't know. Contributing to value add.

Today, by autocad. Back then, a very large framing square.

Most learning comes from the home, with the school system being a
facilitator. These kids would learn mathematics better if they saw the
importance of it applied in life. Where will they see that?

Mathematics skills, to be kept must be practiced regularly.

Then, if one works hard at acquiring and maintaining the skills, they are
usually branded as an "overachiever".

First one is pushed to accomplish something difficult, then when it is
done
they are earmarked with some dysfunction and pushed into the corner.

When I tell kids on how to become successful, I tell the to look for
loopholes and how to beat the system. Travel the road less travelled,
think
out of the box. I even go as far to say that crime may pay and point out
many successful white collar and organizational criminals. Then I point
out
that lawyers do all this and more legally!

Become a lawyer - people will fear and respect you!

Most people adopt the attitude that it is better to behave in a manner
that you never need a lawyer. The fear is that a circumstantial or
random encounter will put you in the position where the sharks can
start circling. There certainly is no respect for a profession where
the goal is to transfer money from one entity to another and skim 40
percent as it goes by. There is no value added with this process.

Great point. Where's the value added in government?

The value added in lawyers comes from future prevention of injury. Lawyers
reduce risk.

The best (or least ethical) of this breed do become wealthy. That is
not the same as garnering respect.

And of course the above is a gross generalization with approrpiate
apologies to those few ethical and productive members of the
profession. I know several.

With most people money, however gotten, earns respect. Those that can't get
money usually despise it.

Become a mathematician - people will laugh!

There is some truth to that. They laughed Demming right out of the
country. And he organized the Japanese to take over the auto and many
other industries. Wonder who laughed last.

The lawyers who sued for the x-cars and other Detroit crap.

Amen!

Bob Crantz, preparing youth today to run the world tomorrow!

And doing a wonderful job

Thank you kind sir!

Amen!
And AMEN to you too!

Frank

State of the Onion Address

On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 19:23:33 GMT, "Bob Crantz"
wrote:

Bunch snipped

I know many people who have those skills. Most are unemployed. Those skills
are not advanced math. Those not unemployed are now paralegals or legal
secretaries.

Once again, you demonstrate that those that you know do not make up a
statistically relevant sample. Those skills are in big demand where I
live. I had to hire against others seeking the same skill level and
we all had a tough time. Those still in the game continue to have
difficulty

Today, by autocad. Back then, a very large framing square.

Not quite right in either time frame. I've worked in both.

Frank

State of the Onion Address

Bob:

I am very happy you are not here mis-educating my kids. Notice that it
is not the lawyers who produce economic growth but is the technical
immigrants who do. Lawyers are necessary just as are convenience store
clerks but engineers actually cause the economy to grow. Left to
themselves, all lawyers would grow is mountains of paperwork.
I always learned very poorly from texts and very well from the real
world. A real world example where your life depends on it teaches far
more than any textbook.
Of course we will never see popular shows about scientists and
engineers because these people deal with abstract concepts that cannot
be easily shown on TV. Lawyers by nature are "people persons" whereas
scientists are oblivious to people. I am so bad with people that
someone at a cocktail party could introduce themselve to me and then 5
minutes later do it again under a different name and I would never know
it. I do well to recognize my own wife and kids.

State of the Onion Address

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 19:23:33 GMT, "Bob Crantz"
wrote:

Bunch snipped

I know many people who have those skills. Most are unemployed. Those
skills
are not advanced math. Those not unemployed are now paralegals or legal
secretaries.

Once again, you demonstrate that those that you know do not make up a
statistically relevant sample. Those skills are in big demand where I
live.

If those I know do not make a statistically significant sample, then why do
the ones you know do?

Do you live in Ohio?

.. I had to hire against others seeking the same skill level and
we all had a tough time. Those still in the game continue to have
difficulty

If you increase the pay, they will come.

You don't see the Federal Gov't subsidizing the growth of lawyers do you?

Why must the growth of engineers and scientists be subsidized?

Wouldn't outstanding pay make more great people go into engineering?

If there is an engineering shortage, then why isn't pay very high?

Starting RN's make more than starting engineers. There's a shortage of RN's.
Where is the shortage of engineers?

Today, by autocad. Back then, a very large framing square.

Not quite right in either time frame. I've worked in both.

Frank

State of the Onion Address

wrote in message
oups.com...
Bob:

I am very happy you are not here mis-educating my kids.

I'd set them straight.

Notice that it
is not the lawyers who produce economic growth but is the technical
immigrants who do.

Now it's the immigrants! What happened to engineers regardless of
background?

Immigrants because they work for less - cheap labor.

There's no shortage of engineers, there's a shortage of cheap engineers.

If engineers were organized like doctors in the AMA, would you see engineers
working cheap?

Lawyers are necessary just as are convenience store
clerks but engineers actually cause the economy to grow.

Without convenience stores, engineers would have no place to work when laid
off.

Left to
themselves, all lawyers would grow is mountains of paperwork.

Paper and cardboard - America's biggest industry! With computers there may
be less paper.

I always learned very poorly from texts and very well from the real
world. A real world example where your life depends on it teaches far
more than any textbook.

"Play for more than you can afford to lose and you will learn the nature of
the game." Churchill (Winston, not Ward)

Of course we will never see popular shows about scientists and
engineers because these people deal with abstract concepts that cannot
be easily shown on TV.

Actually we do. All the popular CSI shows are science driven, NCI is science
driven, there's a crime show featuring a mathematician, there's the
discovery channel, the science channel, Star Trek, etc. The most popular
shows are centered about science.

Lawyers by nature are "people persons" whereas
scientists are oblivious to people.

Lawyers are trained to listen. You can learn it too. Lawyers also argue
rationally and case law is built upon a foundation. There's laws of physics
and laws of society. There's actual underlying principles behind legal
reasoning and procedure.

I am so bad with people that
someone at a cocktail party could introduce themselve to me and then 5
minutes later do it again under a different name and I would never know
it.

I'm guilty of the same thing. It's simply because I fail to listen. It's a
matter of mental training.

I do well to recognize my own wife and kids.

Dave, you are in a different boat than most engineers. You own and operate a
small business. You are also a manager of people and a Captain of your Ship.
Most engineers will never experience that.

"Thousands of years ago, the first man discovered how to make fire. He was
probably burned at the stake he had taught his brothers to light. He was
considered an evildoer who had dealt with a demon mankind dreaded. But
thereafter men had fire to keep them warm, to cook their food, to light
their caves. He had left them a gift they had not conceived and he had
lifted darkness off the earth. Centuries later, the first man invented the
wheel. He was probably torn on the rack he had taught his brothers to build.
He was considered a transgressor who ventured into forbidden territory. But
thereafter, men could travel past any horizon. He had left them a gift they
had not conceived and he had opened the roads of the world.

"That man, the unsubmissive and first, stands in the opening chapter of
every legend mankind has recorded about its beginning. Prometheus was
chained to a rock and torn by vultures--because he had stolen the fire of
the gods. Adam was condemned to suffer--because he had eaten the fruit of
the tree of knowledge. Whatever the legend, somewhere in the shadows of its
memory mankind knew that its glory began with one and that that one paid for
his courage.

"Throughout the centuries there were men who took first steps down new roads
armed with nothing but their own vision. Their goals differed, but they all
had this in common: that the step was first, the road new, the vision
unborrowed, and the response they received--hatred. The great creators--the
thinkers, the artists, the scientists, the inventors--stood alone against
the men of their time. Every great new thought was opposed. Every great new
invention was denounced. The first motor was considered foolish. The first
airplane was considered impossible. The power loom was considered vicious.
Anesthesia was considered sinful. But the men of unborrowed vision went
ahead. They fought, they suffered and they paid. But they won.

"No creator was prompted by a desire to serve his brothers, for his brothers
rejected the gift he offered and that gift destroyed the slothful routine of
their lives. His truth was his only motive. His own truth, and his own work
to achieve it in his own motive. His own truth, and his own work to achieve
it in his own way. A symphony, a book, an engine, a philosophy, an airplane,
or a building--that was his goal and his life. Not those who heard, read,
operated, believed, flew or inhabited the thing he had created. The
creation, not its users. The creation, not the benefits others derived from
it. The creation which gave form to his truth. He held his truth above all
things and against all men.

"His vision, his strength, his courage cam from his own spirit. A man's
spirit, however, is his self. That entity which is his consciousness. To
think, to feel, to judge, to act are functions of the ego.

"The creators were not selfless. It is the whole secret of their power--
that it was self-sufficient, self-motivated, self-generated. A first cause,
a fount of energy, a life force, a Prime Mover. The creator served nothing
and no one. He had lived for himself.

"And only by living for himself was he able to achieve the things which are
the glory of mankind. Such is the nature of achievement.

"Man cannot survive except through his mind. He comes on earth unarmed. His
brain is his only weapon. Animals obtain food by force. Man has no claws, no
fangs, no horns, no great strength of muscle. He must plant his food or hunt
it. To plant, he needs a process of thought. To hunt, he needs weapons, and
to make weapons--a process of thought. From this simplest necessity to the
highest religious abstraction, from the wheel to the skyscraper, everything
we are and everything we have comes from a single attribute of man--the
function of his reasoning mind.

"But the mind is an attribute of the individual. There is no such thing as a
collective brain. There is no such thing as a collective thought. An
agreement reached by a group of men is only a compromise or an average drawn
upon many individual thoughts. it is a secondary consequence. The primary
act--the process of reason--must be performed by each man alone. We can
divide a meal among many men. We cannot digest it in a collective stomach.
No man con use his brain to think for another. All the functions of body and
spirit are private. They cannot be shared or transferred.

"We inherit the products of the thought of other men. We inherit the wheel.
We make a cart. The cart becomes an automobile. The automobile becomes an
airplane. But all through the process what we receive from others is only
the end product of their thinking. The moving force is the creative faculty
which takes this product as material, uses it and originates the nest step.
This creative faculty cannot be given or received, shared or borrowed. It
belongs to single individual men. That which it creates is the property of
the creator. Men learn from one another. But all learning is only the
exchange of material. No man can give another the capacity to think. Yet
that capacity is our only means of survival.

"Nothing is given to man on earth . Everything he needs has to be produced.
And here man faces his basic alternative: he can survive in only one of two
ways-- by the independent work of his own mind or as a parasite fed by minds
of others. The creator originates. The parasite borrows. The creator faces
nature alone. The parasite faces nature through an intermediary.

"The creator's concern is the conquest of nature. The parasite's concern is
the conquest of men.

"The creator lives for his work. He needs no other men. His primary goal is
within himself. The parasite lives second-hand. He needs others. Others
become his prime motive.

"The basic need of the creator is independence. The reasoning mind cannot
work under any form of compulsion. It cannot be curbed, sacrificed or
subordinated to any consideration whatsoever. It demands total independence
in function and in motive. To a creator, all relations with men are
secondary.

"The basic need of the second-hander is to secure his ties with men in order
to be fed. He places relations first. He declares that man exists in order
to serve others. He preaches altruism.

"Altruism is the doctrine which demands that man live for others and place
others above self.

"No man can live for another. He cannot share his spirit just as he cannot
share his body. But the second-hander has used altruism as a weapon of
exploitation and reversed the base of mankind's moral principles. Men have
been taught every precept that destroys the creator. Men have been taught
dependence as a virtue.

"The man who attempts to live for others is a dependent. He is a parasite in
motive and makes parasites of those he serves. The relationship produces
nothing but mutual corruption. It is impossible in concept. The nearest
approach to it in reality--the man who lives to serve others--is the slave.
If physical slavery is repulsive, how much more repulsive is the concept of
servility of the spirit? The conquered slave has a vestige of honor. He has
the merit of having resisted and of considering his condition evil. But the
man who enslaves himself voluntarily in the name of love is the basest of
creatures. He degrades the dignity of man and he degrades the conception of
love. But this is the essence of altruism.

"Men have been taught that the highest virtue is not to achieve, but to
give. Yet one cannot give that which has not been created. Creation comes
before distribution--or there will be nothing to distribute. The need of the
creator comes before the need of any possible beneficiary. Yet we are taught
to admire the second-hander who dispenses gifts he has not produced above
the man who made the gifts possible. We praise an act of charity. We shrug
at an act of achievement.

"Men have been taught that their first concern is to relieve the suffering
of others. But suffering is a disease. Should one come upon it, one tries to
give relief and assistance. To make that the highest test of virtue is to
make suffering the most important part of life. Then man must wish to see
others suffer--in order that he may be virtuous. Such is the nature of
altruism. The creator is not concerned with disease, but with life. Yet the
work of the creators has eliminated one form of disease after another, in
man's body and spirit, and brought more relief from suffering than any
altruist could ever conceive.

"Men have been taught that it is a virtue to agree with others. But the
creator is the man who disagrees. Men have been taught that it is a virtue
to swim with the current. But the creator is the man who goes against the
current. Men have been taught that it is a virtue to stand together. But the
creator is the man who stands alone.

"Men have been taught that the ego is the synonym of evil, and selflessness
the ideal of virtue. But the creator is the egotist in the absolute sense,
and the selfless man is the one who does not think, feel, judge, or act.
These are functions of the self.

"Here the basic reversal is most deadly. The issue has been perverted and
man has been left no alternative-and no freedom. As poles of good and evil,
he was offered two conceptions: egotism and altruism. Egotism was held to
mean the sacrifice of others to self. Altruism--the sacrifice of self to
others. This tied man irrevocably to other men and left him nothing but a
choice of pain: his own pain borne for the sake of others or pain inflicted
upon others for the sake of self. When it was added that man must find joy
in self-immolation, the trap was closed. Man was forced to accept masochism
as his ideal--under the threat that sadism was his only alternative. This
was the greatest fraud ever perpetrated on mankind.

"This was the device by which dependence and suffering were perpetuated as
fundamentals of life.

"The choice is not self-sacrifice or domination. The choice is independence
or dependence. The code of the creator or the code of the second-hander.
This is the basic issue. It rest upon the alternative of life or death. The
code of the creator is built on the needs of the reasoning mind which allows
man to survive. The code of the second-hander is built on the needs of a
mind incapable of survival. All that which proceeds from man's dependence
upon men is evil.

"The egoist in the absolute sense is not the man who sacrifices others. He
is the man who stands above the need of using others in any manner. He does
not function through them. He is not concerned with them in any primary
matter. Not in his aim, not in his motive, not in his thinking, not in his
desires, not in the source of his energy. He does not exist for any other
man--and he asks no man to exist for him. This is the only form of
brotherhood and mutual respect possible between men.

"Degrees of ability vary, but the basic principle remains the same: the
degree of a man's independence, initiative and personal love for his work
determines his talent as a worker and his worth as a man. Independence is
the only gauge of human virtue and value. What a man is and makes of
himself; not what he has or hasn't done for others. There is no substitute
for personal dignity. There is no standard of personal dignity except
independence.

"In all proper relationships there is no sacrifice of anyone to anyone. An
architect needs clients, but he does not subordinate his work to their
wishes. They need him, but they do not order a house just to give him a
commission. Men exchange their work by free, mutual consent to mutual
advantage when their personal interests agree and they both desire the
exchange. If they do not desire it, they are not forced to deal with each
other. They seek further. Anything else is a relation of slave to master, or
victim to executioner.

"No work is ever done collectively, by a majority decision. Every creative
job is achieved under the guidance of a single individual thought. An
architect requires a great many men to erect his building. But he does not
ask them to vote on his design. They work together by free agreement and
each is free in his proper function. An architect uses steel, glass,
concrete, produced by others. But the materials remain just so much steel,
glass and concrete until he touches them. What he does with them is his
individual product and his individual property. This is the only pattern for
proper co-operation among men.

"The first right on earth is the right of the ego. Man's first duty is to
himself. His moral law is never to place his prime goal within the persons
of others. His moral obligation is to do what he wishes, provided his wish
does not depend primarily upon other men. This includes the whole sphere of
his creative faculty, his thinking, his work. But it does not include the
sphere of the gangster, the altruist and the dictator.

"A man thinks and works alone. A man cannot rob, exploit or rule--alone.
Robbery, exploitation and ruling presuppose victims. They imply dependence.
They are the province of the second-hander.

"Rulers of men are not egoists. They create nothing. The exist entirely
through the persons of others. Their goal is in their subjects, in the
activity of enslaving. They are as dependent as the beggar, the social
worker and the bandit. The form of dependence does not matter.

"But men were taught to regard second-handers--tyrants, emperors,
dictators--as exponents of egotism. By this fraud they were made to destroy
the ego, themselves and others. The purpose of the fraud was to destroy the
creators. Or to harness them. Which is a synonym.

"From the beginning of history, the two antagonists have stood face to face:
the creator and the second-hander. When the first creator invented the
wheel, the first second-hander responded. He invented altruism.

""The creator--denied, opposed, persecuted, exploited--went on, moved
forward and carried all humanity along on his energy. The second-hander
contributed nothing to the process except the impediments. The contest has
another name: the individual against the collective.

"The 'common good' of a collective--a race, a class, a state-- was the claim
and justification of every tyranny ever established over men. Every major
horror of history was committed in the name of an altruistic motive. Has any
act of selfishness ever equaled the carnage perpetrated by disciples of
altruism? Does the fault lie in men's hypocrisy or in the nature of the
principle? The most dreadful butchers were the most sincere. They believed
in the perfect society reached through the guillotine and the firing squad.
Nobody questioned their right to murder since they were murdering for an
altruistic purpose. It was accepted that man must be sacrificed for other
men. Actors change, but the course of the tragedy remains the same. A
humanitarian who starts with declarations of love for mankind and ends with
a sea of blood. It goes on and will go on so long as men believe that an
action is good if it unselfish. That permits the altruist to act and forces
his victims to bear it. The leaders of collectivist movements ask nothing
for themselves. But observe the results.

"The only good which men can do to one another and the only statement of
their proper relationship is--Hands off!

"Now observe the results of a society built on the principle of
individualism. This, our country. The noblest country in the history of men.
The country of greatest achievement, greatest prosperity, greatest freedom.
This country was not based on selfless service, sacrifice, renunciation or
any precept of altruism. It was based on a man's right to the pursuit of
happiness. His own happiness. Not anyone else's. A private, personal,
selfish motive. Look at the results. Look into your own conscience.

"It is an ancient conflict. Men have come close to the truth, but it was
destroyed each time and one civilization fell after another. Civilization is
the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage's whole existence is
public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of
setting man free from men.

"Now, in our age, collectivism, the rule of the second-hander and
second-rater, the ancient monster, has broken loose and is running amuck. It
has brought men to a level of intellectual indecency never equaled on earth.
It has reached a scale of horror without precedent. It has poisoned every
mind. It has swallowed most of Europe. It is engulfing our country.

"I am an architect. I know what is to come by the principle on which it is
built. We are approaching a world in which I cannot permit myself to live.

"Now you know why I dynamited Cortlandt.

"I designed Cortlandt. I gave it to you. I destroyed it.

"I destroyed it because I did not choose to let it exist. It was a double
monster. In form and in implication. I had to blast both. The form was
mutilated by two second-handers who assumed the right to improve upon that
which they had not made and could not equal. They were permitted to do it by
the general implication that the altruistic purpose of the building
supersede all rights and that I had no claim to stand against it.

"I agreed to design Cortlandt for the purpose of seeing it erected as I
designed it and for no other reason. That was the price I set for my work. I
was not paid.

"I do not blame Peter Keating. He was helpless. He had a contract with his
employers. It was ignored. He had a promise that the structure he offered
would be built as designed. The promise was broken. The love of a man for
the integrity of his work and his right to preserve it are now considered a
vague intangible and an unessential. You have heard the prosecutor say that.
Why was the building disfigured? For no reason. Such acts never have any
reason, unless it's the vanity of some second-handers who feel they have a
right to anyone's property, spiritual or material. Who permitted them to do
it? No particular man among the dozens in authority. No one cared to permit
it or to stop it. No one was responsible. NO one can be held to account.
Such is the nature of all collective action.

"I did not receive the payment I asked. But the owners of Cortlandt got what
they need from me. they wanted a scheme devised to build a structure as
cheaply as possible. They found no one else who could do it to their
satisfaction. I could and did. they took the benefit of my work and made me
contribute it as a gift. But I am not an altruist. i do not contribute gifts
of this nature.

"It is said that I have destroyed the home of the destitute. It is forgotten
that but for me the destitute could not have had this particular home. Those
who were concerned with the poor had to come to me, who have never been
concerned, in order to help the poor. It is believed that the poverty of the
future tenants gave them a right to my work. that their need constituted a
claim on my life. That it was my duty to contribute anything demanded of me.
This is the second-hander's credo now swallowing the world.

"I came here to say that I do not recognize anyone's right to one minute of
my life. Nor to any part of my energy. Nor to any achievement of mine. No
matter who makes the claim, how large their number or how great their need.

"I wished to come here and say that I am a man who does not exist for
others.

"It had to be said. The world is perishing from an orgy of self-sacrificing.

"I wished to come here and say that the integrity of a man's creative work
is of greater importance than any charitable endeavor. Those of you who do
not understand this are the men who're destroying the world.

"I wished to come here and state my terms. I do not care to exist on any
others.

"I recognize no obligations toward men except one: to respect their freedom
and to take no part in a slave society. To my country, i wish to give the
ten years which I will spend in jail if my country exists no longer. I will
spend them in memory and in gratitude for what my country has been. It will
be my act of loyalty, my refusal to live or work in what has taken its
place.

"My act of loylty to every creator who ever lived and was made to suffer by
the force responsible for the Cortlandt I dynamited. To every tortured hour
of loneliness, denial, frustration, abuse he was made to spend--and to the
battles he won. To every creator who was destroyed in body or in spirit. To
Henry Cameron. To Steven Mallory. To a man who doesn't want to be named, but
who is sitting in this courtroom and knows that I am speaking of him."

State of the Onion Address

Bob Crantz wrote:
"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
...

On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 19:23:33 GMT, "Bob Crantz"
wrote:

Bunch snipped

I know many people who have those skills. Most are unemployed. Those
skills
are not advanced math. Those not unemployed are now paralegals or legal
secretaries.

Once again, you demonstrate that those that you know do not make up a
statistically relevant sample. Those skills are in big demand where I
live.

If those I know do not make a statistically significant sample, then why do
the ones you know do?

Do you live in Ohio?

. I had to hire against others seeking the same skill level and

we all had a tough time. Those still in the game continue to have
difficulty

If you increase the pay, they will come.

You don't see the Federal Gov't subsidizing the growth of lawyers do you?

Why must the growth of engineers and scientists be subsidized?

Wouldn't outstanding pay make more great people go into engineering?

If there is an engineering shortage, then why isn't pay very high?

My daughter, a manufacturing engineer, has been working at her
rpesent position for 3 years. She just now makes about what a
starting RN makes...and has a 4+ year degree vs. the usual
Associates or 3 year diploma program that most RN's complete.

Starting RN's make more than starting engineers. There's a shortage of RN's.
Where is the shortage of engineers?

Well, it sure isn;t in Michigan. They've laid off just about as
many as they could and shipped the rest to Mexico.

Today, by autocad. Back then, a very large framing square.

Not quite right in either time frame. I've worked in both.

Frank

State of the Onion Address

Katy, you have no mercy for an antisocial geek. I really had to train
myself to have what few social skills I do have. Looking people in the
eye is something I never did naturally and so had to force myself to
do. My wife tells me she can discern volumes about a person by their
eyes but I see nothing at all. My relationships with women were always
a disaster for this reason, thank God my wife is understanding.
Lawyers are overpaid because they have a monopoly. They make the laws
too. I know very few unemployed engineers. Most physicists and
engineers I have known having trouble finding jobs never even gave a
thought to starting their own business. I did not start mine by choice
but simply because it beat unemployment. I am the worlds worst manager
and if my employees cannot manage themselves they better go somewhere
else. I dont care when they work as long as they get stuff done and if
they say they work 40 hours I believe them but would never keep track.
Self motivated people seem to be able to find work.
OTOH, my wife is a teacher(Masters in Special ed Masters in counseling)
with years of experience and she puts up with the BS from the system.
I used to tell her she should start her own educational service but she
has no desire to work for herself. It baffles me but she seems happy.
The idea of becoming a lawyer always impressed me as an excercise in
mediocrity done by sorta smart people who simply couldnt think of
anything else to do. I'd call it a lack of imagination. My brother
became a lawyer which was no surprise to me as he has no imagination
but when my youngest and smartest sister (I have seven sisters) became
a lawyer I told her it was a waste of a good mind and was very
disappointed. About half of my friends are lawyers and their careers
seem really dull.
I stand corrected about the lack of scientists in TV and movies. My
ignorance is due to having almost no contact with TV or movies.
Katy, seeing what nurses do, I have no problem paying them well.

State of the Onion Address

wrote in message
ups.com...
Part of the problem is the way math and science is taught as if they
were obscure theoretical subjects with little application to real life
and this is because most teachers do not understand the subjects.

My point exactly; or at least one of them. I work in a school with many
gifted teachers, they are engineers, PhD'd scientists (biomed), nurses,
technicians, machinists, carpenters, IT specialists, and on and on. They're
older people but new teachers. They've had successful careers but many have
wanted to try teaching and this is a great way to try it on for size. They
can and do bring math (and academics in general) to life for kids who wants
to learn. They do help the problematic kids who are "dumped" into the
vo-techs, but at the expense of that middle 50% who are now displaced by the
practices of the system. What a waste of talent when you consider that kids
sitting in sending schools are in effect being denied wonderful
opportunities because their guidance counselors and administrators have done
the evil and selfish deed of populating the vo-techs with trouble makers,
and then telling the good kids they're too "smart" for vo-tech. First they
create the environment and then they condemn it! So now the traditional
(sending) high school has highly trained special ed teachers who are working
with manageable groups of the 6 or 7 spec ed kids they kept, while the
engineers with very little training in spec ed have labs with 25 kids, 50%
of whom are spec ed or emotional support. Having said all that, I think the
engineers do a better job at spec ed than the spec ed teachers do! Maybe the
universe is in balance afterall!
Scout

State of the Onion Address

"Bob Crantz" wrote
Education gives you the ability to anticipate problems you haven't
experienced, experience gives you a quiver of solutions to problems.

I'm framing this and hanging it or my office wall -
Amen!
Scout

State of the Onion Address

"Bob Crantz" wrote
{snipped}
We need more lawyers!

Bob Crantz - Master of verbal irony!
Scout

State of the Onion Address

wrote
{snip}
I am so bad with people {snip}

My partner (teaches physics) is an engineer and is as you say, bad with
people. He also has a problem with gas. Within 5 minutes of meeting a new
person, he typically farts loudly on them, and then, without a trace of
shame, he just smiles. He's brilliant, but I suspect he has a touch of
asbergers!
Scout

State of the Onion Address

spec ed teachers are... 'special'..

Scotty

"Scout" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
ups.com...
Part of the problem is the way math and science is taught as
if they
were obscure theoretical subjects with little application to
real life
and this is because most teachers do not understand the
subjects.

My point exactly; or at least one of them. I work in a school
with many
gifted teachers, they are engineers, PhD'd scientists (biomed),
nurses,
technicians, machinists, carpenters, IT specialists, and on and
on. They're
older people but new teachers. They've had successful careers
but many have
wanted to try teaching and this is a great way to try it on for
size. They
can and do bring math (and academics in general) to life for
kids who wants
to learn. They do help the problematic kids who are "dumped"
into the
vo-techs, but at the expense of that middle 50% who are now
displaced by the
practices of the system. What a waste of talent when you
consider that kids
sitting in sending schools are in effect being denied wonderful
opportunities because their guidance counselors and
administrators have done
the evil and selfish deed of populating the vo-techs with
trouble makers,
and then telling the good kids they're too "smart" for vo-tech.
First they
create the environment and then they condemn it! So now the
traditional
(sending) high school has highly trained special ed teachers
who are working
with manageable groups of the 6 or 7 spec ed kids they kept,
while the
engineers with very little training in spec ed have labs with
25 kids, 50%
of whom are spec ed or emotional support. Having said all that,
I think the
engineers do a better job at spec ed than the spec ed teachers
do! Maybe the
universe is in balance afterall!
Scout

State of the Onion Address - jobs

"Bob Crantz" wrote......
When I tell kids on how to become successful, I tell the to look for
loopholes and how to beat the system. ......

If they want to be entertainers (musicians, sports figures, actors) suggest they
instead consider the Jesus business. There a 1000s of failures for every
singer, rock band, etc. that makes it big time but even most small town
preachers earn good livings and top televangilists outearn rock stars. Good
news is you don't have to be superstitious yourself - just able to do a gig
every Sunday - nor have an expensive education.

State of the Onion Address

wrote...
If you care about society, ......

You are absolutely correct - IF you care about society. Most young people do
not, at least as much as they care about themselves. They've been told
correctly "If you think schools and teachers are tough wait til you get a job
and a boss!" so they are terrified of having to actually work, whether at a job
or for a technical degree.

Looking back at my own life, I struggled thru engineering courses while business
and liberal arts majors partied on dad's dime ... and ended up working for them.
Except for basics like math and physics most of what I learned was soon OBE
(Anybody need a vacuum tube circuit designed lately?). If I had it to do over
I'd opt for law then politics, or bag education entirely and go into the Jesus
business.

State of the Onion Address

"Vito" wrote in message
...
wrote...
If you care about society, ......

You are absolutely correct - IF you care about society. Most young people
do
not, at least as much as they care about themselves. They've been told
correctly "If you think schools and teachers are tough wait til you get a
job
and a boss!" so they are terrified of having to actually work, whether at
a job
or for a technical degree.

Looking back at my own life, I struggled thru engineering courses while
business
and liberal arts majors partied on dad's dime ... and ended up working for
them.
Except for basics like math and physics most of what I learned was soon
OBE
(Anybody need a vacuum tube circuit designed lately?). If I had it to do
over
I'd opt for law then politics, or bag education entirely and go into the
Jesus
business.

Praise the Lord!

I fall to my knees weeping!

Lord!

You have seen the light! Glory!

Vito, the Goldwater Conservative, sees with clear vision!

Amen! Amen! Amen!!!!

There is still one thing you left out. You can apply your science knowledge
to become wealthy and famous!

That's right!

The answer is PSEUDOSCIENCE.

That's right! Selling hope in the form of pseudoscience to willing victims
who will pay vast sums to be told, analyzed and treated with dubious
scientific practice!

Healing magnets!

Polarized water!

Meridian alignment!

Power line shields!

Healing crystals!

Sound therapy!

Aroma therapy!

Color therapy!

Fung Shui!

It's all there!

Putting the great discoveries of SCIENCE to dubious and questionable
practice!

This exciting growth industry merges SCIENCE, FAITH, MYSTICISM, and SLIGHTLY
ILLEGAL PRACTICES to make you RICH!

Cash in on your science training now!

Amen!

State of the Onion Address - jobs

Amen!

"Vito" wrote in message
...
"Bob Crantz" wrote......
When I tell kids on how to become successful, I tell the to look for
loopholes and how to beat the system. ......

If they want to be entertainers (musicians, sports figures, actors)
suggest they
instead consider the Jesus business. There a 1000s of failures for every
singer, rock band, etc. that makes it big time but even most small town
preachers earn good livings and top televangilists outearn rock stars.
Good
news is you don't have to be superstitious yourself - just able to do a
gig
every Sunday - nor have an expensive education.