"DSK" wrote in message

Why would a 'sugar scoop' transom be a problem in a seaway, given
mostly-competent design & construction of the boat?

Well... it's a fgree entry point for inwash. Not a terrible thing if you
have proper watertight companionway fittings and will drain as easily as it
fills .... but still the design allows much more water into the cockpit
than the standard enclosed type.

That's because they were either not fast boats to begin with, or because
they were incompetently sailed.

Well that would assume my competency and the assumption the other vessels
were crewed by incompetents. I doubt that was the case Doug. I attribute it
to the facility of my vessel in rough seas. They seemed to "pound" much more
to windward. They also seemed to lack momentum to overcome the sea state.

On it's best day, your boat is going to have a very hard time putting in
200+ miles days, which should be easily achievable with a racier boat in
good driving conditions.

I can maintain an easy 7 knots in good winds, even in roughest seas. Some of
the other vessels can surpass that ... but not continuously for long
durations. That may be my boat's advantage.


Would you call a Niagra 35 a "light to moderate displacement" boat? It's
SA/D is a whopping 16 and the D/L is 350! Very nice boat, but hardly what
anybody is going to consider "racy."

It's a much larger vessel..... I don't know enough about racing to know if
it's that fast or not. It has taken a lot of races in Yellowknife.


As for going DDW in a blow, it can be done... and is done... pretty
regularly by good racing crews, unless it's faster to reach. Shucks, I've
raced Lightnings and 470s, including a few memorable spinnaker runs, in
winds north of 40 knots. It's fun!

I met with the Captains after the race... none to a man would have dared try
that with their boats except for one really competitive racer... he dropped
a reef and changed headsails to catch up... he broached. Everyone was amazed
at the downwind tracking ability of my boat. She was a dream to sail during
that race and never taxed the crew. Boats ranged form a C&C27 to a Frasier
42. the Contessa 32s couldn't even qualify to be within reach of me and the
Niagara 35 was 2 miles behind when I crossed the line. They Niagara finished
2nd. place.

I can't match a fin keeler on harbour races... my vessel isn't designed for
that. Given the proper conditions.... it can achieve it's potential and
that will outstrip some racing designs. Overall it's a comfortable vessel
with an adequate turn of speed. It's forgiving and well mannered.

CM

Why would a 'sugar scoop' transom be a problem in a seaway, given
mostly-competent design & construction of the boat?


Capt.Mooron wrote:
Well... it's a fgree entry point for inwash.

Not if the boat is designed with good reserve bouyancy in the aft sections.

.... Not a terrible thing if you
have proper watertight companionway fittings and will drain as easily as it
fills .... but still the design allows much more water into the cockpit
than the standard enclosed type.


I disagree strongly. In fact, having sailed many open transom boats in
pretty good seas, I can remember very few times having water come in
astern. And those times were in waves steep enough (or breaking) that
they would have washed over top of any transom (or pointy stern) too.

In fact, the one boat I've sailed a lot and is mentionable as having a
tendency to stick her stern into following seas is an old classic
counter-stern sloop. Elegant, and from the looks of that long overhang
you'd think she'd lift readily to waves from astern. But that turned out
not to eb the case. A great boat in many other respects though, and
beautiful enough to be forgiven this flaw... besides, she also had the
classic small cockpit...



That's because they were either not fast boats to begin with, or because
they were incompetently sailed.


Amend that overly harsh statement to "not sailed with high degree of
racing competence."


Well that would assume my competency and the assumption the other vessels
were crewed by incompetents. I doubt that was the case Doug. I attribute it
to the facility of my vessel in rough seas. They seemed to "pound" much more
to windward. They also seemed to lack momentum to overcome the sea state.


If they're pounding and "lack momentum" then they're being sailed
wrong... specifically, they are pinching. There is a time to feather up
when overpowered, but it's not when consistently overpowered with seas
sweeping you to leeward. Also, boats don't pound (or at least, nowhere
near as much) when depowered & footed off.



On it's best day, your boat is going to have a very hard time putting in
200+ miles days, which should be easily achievable with a racier boat in
good driving conditions.


I can maintain an easy 7 knots in good winds, even in roughest seas. Some of
the other vessels can surpass that ... but not continuously for long
durations. That may be my boat's advantage.


What do you call "long duration"? All the way across? Why would any
competent crew stop driving their vessel when sailing conditions were good?




As for going DDW in a blow, it can be done... and is done... pretty
regularly by good racing crews, unless it's faster to reach. Shucks, I've
raced Lightnings and 470s, including a few memorable spinnaker runs, in
winds north of 40 knots. It's fun!


I met with the Captains after the race... none to a man would have dared try
that with their boats except for one really competitive racer... he dropped
a reef and changed headsails to catch up... he broached.

And didn't get going again?

Hell, I've raced some lightweight flyers that broached under spinnaker
every 5 minutes, and still hit 18 knots and passed boats on the run.

Like I said, the problem here is that you're apparently not racing
against guys that are driving hard & fast.



I can't match a fin keeler on harbour races... my vessel isn't designed for
that. Given the proper conditions.... it can achieve it's potential and
that will outstrip some racing designs.

Y'know, every crab crusher sailor says that, then when I ask "what
racing designs" it turns out that they consider a slightly less
crab-crushy boat to be a "hot-shot racer" and don't really want to put
it to the test.

I'm kind of surprised that the Contessa 32(s) sailed in your club can't
keep up with you in a blow, those are supposed to be good heavy weather
boats.


... Overall it's a comfortable vessel
with an adequate turn of speed. It's forgiving and well mannered.


And those are very good characteristics. Good steering characteristics,
especially in following seas, is also very desirable.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"DSK" wrote in message

Not if the boat is designed with good reserve bouyancy in the aft
sections.

Well that's the ringer isn't it? A sugar scoop would lend to waterline ...
but not nessecarily to boyancy

I disagree strongly. In fact, having sailed many open transom boats in
pretty good seas, I can remember very few times having water come in
astern. And those times were in waves steep enough (or breaking) that they
would have washed over top of any transom (or pointy stern) too.

Now there rears the head of the Dragon of Reserve Buoyancy.
I would take issue with that statement having experienced both types of
vessels in comparitive situations.


In fact, the one boat I've sailed a lot and is mentionable as having a
tendency to stick her stern into following seas is an old classic
counter-stern sloop. Elegant, and from the looks of that long overhang
you'd think she'd lift readily to waves from astern. But that turned out
not to eb the case. A great boat in many other respects though, and
beautiful enough to be forgiven this flaw... besides, she also had the
classic small cockpit...

More Reserve bouyancy than a sugar scoop??


Amend that overly harsh statement to "not sailed with high degree of
racing competence."

Maybe not......?


If they're pounding and "lack momentum" then they're being sailed wrong...
specifically, they are pinching. There is a time to feather up when
overpowered, but it's not when consistently overpowered with seas sweeping
you to leeward. Also, boats don't pound (or at least, nowhere near as
much) when depowered & footed off.

Although I agree with the base contention... mitigating factors are always a
reality.
Sea states can be vary with seasonal conditions. I sail in unprotected
waters... for the most part.
Steep short seas with breaking tops are common. So are 40ft+ waves entering
my harbour. Doug... those are a steep climb.
I've been in water that has impeded forward progress to a waypoint.


What do you call "long duration"? All the way across? Why would any
competent crew stop driving their vessel when sailing conditions were
good?

Well that depends dosen't it.... 12 hours could be a "duration". Depends on
watch times and crew condition.

And didn't get going again?

Of course... but in that type of wind......... minutes are hours lost


Hell, I've raced some lightweight flyers that broached under spinnaker
every 5 minutes, and still hit 18 knots and passed boats on the run.

I'm certain you have Doug.......


Like I said, the problem here is that you're apparently not racing against
guys that are driving hard & fast.

That could be......



Y'know, every crab crusher sailor says that, then when I ask "what racing
designs" it turns out that they consider a slightly less crab-crushy boat
to be a "hot-shot racer" and don't really want to put it to the test.

Heh... when you enter a race... you race the field

I'm kind of surprised that the Contessa 32(s) sailed in your club can't
keep up with you in a blow, those are supposed to be good heavy weather
boats.

Yeah they are.... I'm saying my boat is substantially faster. It's a proven
fact.

And those are very good characteristics. Good steering characteristics,
especially in following seas, is also very desirable.

I like my boat Doug....... :-)

CM

Not if the boat is designed with good reserve bouyancy in the aft
sections.


Capt.Mooron wrote:
Well that's the ringer isn't it? A sugar scoop would lend to waterline ...
but not nessecarily to boyancy


Not necessarily waterline either. But a major feature of a boat, like an
open transom (not the same thing as a sugar scoop), *must* be in
accordance with the rest of the design. Most racier boats with open
transoms happen to have pretty wide, bouyant stern sections. Not
necessarily a coincidence.


I disagree strongly. In fact, having sailed many open transom boats in
pretty good seas, I can remember very few times having water come in
astern. And those times were in waves steep enough (or breaking) that they
would have washed over top of any transom (or pointy stern) too.


Now there rears the head of the Dragon of Reserve Buoyancy.
I would take issue with that statement having experienced both types of
vessels in comparitive situations.


It may be that you're not looking back enough
I know that of the few times I've had water come into an open transom
boat from following seas, it's been when the seas were rather steep
and/or breaking, and stand by the assertion that most of them would have
rolled right in over a transom, too. Especially one without much reserve
bouyancy aft.



In fact, the one boat I've sailed a lot and is mentionable as having a
tendency to stick her stern into following seas is an old classic
counter-stern sloop. Elegant, and from the looks of that long overhang
you'd think she'd lift readily to waves from astern. But that turned out
not to eb the case. A great boat in many other respects though, and
beautiful enough to be forgiven this flaw... besides, she also had the
classic small cockpit...


More Reserve bouyancy than a sugar scoop??


Well, this was also a rather narrow & heavy boat. Reserve bouyancy is
relative to the overall displacement, and also to the moment of inertia.
A heavy boat, especially one with a lot of weight in the ends, will need
more reserve bouyancy to gain the same lift to following seas.


Although I agree with the base contention... mitigating factors are always a
reality.
Sea states can be vary with seasonal conditions. I sail in unprotected
waters... for the most part.
Steep short seas with breaking tops are common. So are 40ft+ waves entering
my harbour. Doug... those are a steep climb.


Sure. But OTOH a lighter boat with a more powerful rig ought to be able
to get up & over those waves easier. One disadvantage is that they tend
to get thrown to leeward by breaking crests, which means the boat must
be cleverly sailed to avoid that; but IMHO that's not the most
overriding factor. It suggests unless the skipper in the picture is not
using the right sailing techniques to minimize his disadvantage(s) and
maximize his advantages. Of course, I could be wrong... nah, I couldn't


Hell, I've raced some lightweight flyers that broached under spinnaker
every 5 minutes, and still hit 18 knots and passed boats on the run.


I'm certain you have Doug.......

It's fun, especially on somebody else's boat... You'd love it!


I like my boat Doug....... :-)

I like it too, and I've never even seen it in person.
BTW did I ever send you any pictures of the Vancouver 36 in our marina?
Very similar boat, at first I thought it was a bigger Nordica.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"DSK" wrote in message
I like it too, and I've never even seen it in person.
BTW did I ever send you any pictures of the Vancouver 36 in our marina?
Very similar boat, at first I thought it was a bigger Nordica.

Yes.... the Vancouvers are very nice vessels. Another vessel I really liked
was the Cabo Rico 38. I chartered one in Eluethra for 3 weeks.

CM