I like the boats. Nice design. It is amazing he finds mid-life crisis
novices to pay him the big fees, when they could find cheaper ways
around the world.

When you consider the watches are only 1 hour long, it is light duty
watchkeeping.


"DSK" wrote

That does sound like an interesting dinner. Is Chay Blythe going to be
there himself? Does the Global Challenge group solicit donations to keep
the project going or do the paying passengers bring in enough to keep it
floating? I was pretty surprised they raised enough money to build those
boats and managed to keep it going this long. It's an outstanding ocean
racing event and seems to be under the radar of most of the sailing press.

Don't that have troble filling in spots for the people who bail out?

OzOne wrote

Sponsors for each boat pretty much cover costs and paying crew cover
theirs and the cost of paid crew.
Of course Challenge get their cut.
5-8000 English pound for each leg and crew of 18 on each yacht, so
they do alright.

Now that is worth repeating...


"DSK" wrote

The probability of your boat having been designed & built for the
Whitbread race is about the same as the probability of a green & purple
polka-dotted monkey flying out of my nose, playing 'Stairway To Heaven' on
a banjo.

The boats are very nice. I might consider being a skippper
depending on the pay. All you have to do is figure out how
to keep the crew busy, or sedated...

"Capt. Neal®" wrote

Big deal. A bunch of pompous rich fools trying to buy their
way around the world because they are too timid to attempt
doing it on their own.
Wussies!

OzOne wrote

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 "Bart Senior" wrote
I like the boats. Nice design. It is amazing he finds mid-life crisis
novices to pay him the big fees, when they could find cheaper ways
around the world.

Mid life crisis starts young these days in the US?

Most of the crews are from GB aren't they? These people are mostly
35-45 range are they not?

Tell me Bart, how would you go about racing around the world the wrong
way and saving dollars doing it?

I'd go the right way--downwind. And I wouldn't do it racing. I'm
not sure I'd call what Blythe is doing "racing".

There are lots of boats looking for crew. I'd start checking ads in
Latitude 38, and perhaps post one myself, find a boat and go. If
you want to race, then I'd recommend people starting with fleet racing.

When you consider the watches are only 1 hour long, it is light duty
watchkeeping.

Who told you that?
Helming is in one hour stints.

Correct. One hour stints at the helm.

What are the rest of them doing? Freezing while keeping watch?
Doing the occassional sail change? Of course these boats don't have
roller furling. The reason is they have got to find something for these
huge crews to do.

Can you tell me how you'd organise rest periods with one hour watches?

I wouldn't want such a big crew to start with. Big crews mean more
money for Chay Blythe. That is the purpose of big crews.

Depending on the size of the vessel, an optimal crew size would be
around six, five crew, including skipper, and a cook. 2 on 8 off,
with hands call on deck for sail changes. This gives plenty of crew
rest for a distant voyage. One person helming and standing watch.
If conditions were colder and rougher, pehaps 1 on and 4 off.

My understanding is Blythe takes people with relatively little experience.
The prinicipal qualification being--they have money.

If I was going to give advice to someone looking to make their life
more adventuresome, I tell them how to do it while keeping the bank
account intact. Or it they want to spend $35k+, these people could
buy a boat and at least be able to resell it at some point.

Why should sailing be expensive? It doesn't have to be. In fact
a do-it-your-sefler can find economical ways to live an
adventuresome life afloat.

I understand that some people need to be lead around like sheep.
I've also taught many students that are loners who find themselves at
a point in their life where they have worked hard and life feels like
it has passed them by to a certain extent--like Neal was saying in
the other thread. They search for meaning in life and need some
great adventure--just for something to talk about when they return
to the "real" world of work and business. Some turn to sailing, in
part to find a circle of friends to do things with. I think it is rooted
in loneliness.

I'll give Chay Blythe credit for giving these people a huge boost to
their self confidence. When you enter life and death situations, and
learn to rely on others while they rely on you, you do things you
might not otherwise do. It helps one find meaning in life. How could
it not? Offshore sailing like Dougs recent adventure has, I'm sure,
created crew bonds and memories for him that will last forever.

I think a more confident person could develop skills and set off
without guidance and handholding, and find even greater meaning
in the experience. What do you think?

Bart Senior

I could handle the skipper position. I'd do a better
job than Gary Jobson. All my crew would come back
alive. The question is would I want to. Probably not.
I would be a good team leader because I've done much
of this sort of work as a sailing instructor. I know how
to motivate people.

I don't want to denigrate the whole thing, but it is
obviously an event for inexperienced amateurs. I'm
sure the participants get a lot out of it--not necessarily
sailing skills.

This "race" is designed as "make work" for the crew,
while extracting the maximum amount of money out
of them for a phony race.

The race is phony because the crews are all novices,
and they don't win anything. It is more like an Outward
Bound experience. Even the losers win because they
have accomplished a circumnavigation! That is the
big carrot that Blythe offers his clients. If I was a
skipper, my goal would not be to win, but to complete
the event, without casualties, while making it extraordinary
for the clients.

I saw a TV special on this race. I looked it up online
and researched it a bit. I even posted on this subject
several years ago. The TV program was clear the
crew were not very experienced. Some had no
experience at all until they started prepping for the event.
Many had only very basic sailing skills on typically one
type of small boat.

I interviewed a Brit for that Valiant 37 delivery three years
ago. He had one of these "Legs" on his sailing resume. I
questioned him in detail about it. The rest of his resume
was pitiful. He was a nice guy, but his skills were weak.
He was not good at taking advantage of opportunities--he
bailed on the delivery. Contrast him with some other sailors
I know, like my friend Patty, that work double shifts to save
up time off for an ocean passage.

Why sedated? For the boring hours below while
pounding UPWIND for God's sake!

Bart


OzOne wrote
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 "Bart Senior" wrote:

The boats are very nice. I might consider being a skippper
depending on the pay. All you have to do is figure out how
to keep the crew busy, or sedated...


First you wouldn't qualify.
What is this crap about sedation and keeping busy?
This is a racing crew on an around the world race...they're busy
enough with running the yacht, navigating and weather routing.

When you consider the watches are only 1 hour long, it is light duty
watchkeeping.


OzOne wrote:
Who told you that?
Helming is in one hour stints.
Can you tell me how you'd organise rest periods with one hour watches?


1 hour watches would be crazy.

But I also think that 1 hour is too long on the helm. IMHO 20 to 30
minutes is about the most time anyone can really work hard at helming.

It may be that the 1 hour stints on the wheel are to keep the races more
even, so that no one boat can gain an advantage by having one particular
better helmsman.

DSK

I took a class a few years back with someone who had just completed
the Challenge. He was a hardy, middle aged man with considerable
coastal, and some ocean experience. He had recently traded in a Wall
Street career for boat deliveries, and having crewed on a few Capetown
to Annapolis runs he wanted to "take it to the next level."

I think the cost was about $45000 - a lot for most people, but not
that different from what many spend on a sabbatical. He did his
Yachtmaster training while they did the Challenge training. His wife
was with him in England, and met him at various ports of call.

I asked about how much of a "race" it was. He described it as a
"friendly competition." A few boats really wanted to win, others just
wanted to finish, but no one wanted to risk everything to gain a few
miles. As for the "ordeal factor," he said, "There's no way to go
6000 miles upwind in the Southern Ocean and not have it be an ordeal."

I described it as the experience of a lifetime.





OzOne wrote:
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 20:24:03 -0500, "Bart Senior"
scribbled thusly:


OzOne wrote


On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 "Bart Senior" wrote

I like the boats. Nice design. It is amazing he finds mid-life crisis
novices to pay him the big fees, when they could find cheaper ways
around the world.

Mid life crisis starts young these days in the US?

Most of the crews are from GB aren't they? These people are mostly
35-45 range are they not?


Nope, you could go to the website and check the teams but I'm sure
you'll find that most are between 25 and 35.
Many are from GB because the training, interviews and assessments
require you to be in the UK for whole weeks at a time.


Tell me Bart, how would you go about racing around the world the wrong
way and saving dollars doing it?

I'd go the right way--downwind. And I wouldn't do it racing. I'm
not sure I'd call what Blythe is doing "racing".


That's the challenge, going the wrong way.
And I can asure you that they are racing, racing hard, and damaging
boats in the process at times.
What makes you think they're not racing? Because that finish each leg
within close proximity, like an hour between 1 and 4?
It's because the boats are the same, sails are made by the one
sailmaker and are identical..it's as close as you can get to one
design ocean racing...that's the beauty of it!

There are lots of boats looking for crew. I'd start checking ads in
Latitude 38, and perhaps post one myself, find a boat and go. If
you want to race, then I'd recommend people starting with fleet racing.


Bart, these people want to circumnavigate.
And with the qualified coach on board, they get more than enough miles
and experience to qualify for most tickets, except yachtmasters where
they need miles as the skipper.
Think of it as a 6month full time sail training course for some.

When you consider the watches are only 1 hour long, it is light duty
watchkeeping.

Who told you that?
Helming is in one hour stints.

Correct. One hour stints at the helm.


Yep, helm, not watch!

What are the rest of them doing? Freezing while keeping watch?


Freezing? Why? Think about the timing here, they're doing the southern
ocean in the warmest part og the southern summer...they do think about
these things Bart.

Doing the occassional sail change? Of course these boats don't have
roller furling. The reason is they have got to find something for these
huge crews to do.


Of course they don't have furlers, they are race boats and not
shorthanded!

Can you tell me how you'd organise rest periods with one hour watches?

I wouldn't want such a big crew to start with. Big crews mean more
money for Chay Blythe. That is the purpose of big crews.


No, the purpose is to make the journey fun, not exhausting.
How many passages have you made of say 6 days, shorthanded?
I can tell you its hard yakka!

Depending on the size of the vessel, an optimal crew size would be
around six, five crew, including skipper, and a cook. 2 on 8 off,
with hands call on deck for sail changes. This gives plenty of crew
rest for a distant voyage. One person helming and standing watch.
If conditions were colder and rougher, pehaps 1 on and 4 off.


Thayt my friend is absolute bull****!
These guys are sailing for 6 months, you try that on a 72' boat with 8
crew, most of whom are not ocean racers and you'll soon get the idea!

My understanding is Blythe takes people with relatively little experience.
The prinicipal qualification being--they have money.


They need money and a will to learn, a sense of adventure and a
toughness that is required for 35 days at sea in the souther ocean.

If I was going to give advice to someone looking to make their life
more adventuresome, I tell them how to do it while keeping the bank
account intact. Or it they want to spend $35k+, these people could
buy a boat and at least be able to resell it at some point.


Bart, these people are not ocean racers, think of the cost of owning a
yacht for all the years it takes for you to learn to sail, then build
up skill to the time that you can circumnavigate safely.
Jesus, for many, $35K wouldn't cover a years interest on the loan!

Why should sailing be expensive? It doesn't have to be. In fact
a do-it-your-sefler can find economical ways to live an
adventuresome life afloat.


You still don't get it, they don't want "an adventuresome life
afloat", they want to sail around the world safely, and for many,
learn to sail, for others, vastly improve their skills.
They have lives, careers and families to return to after the 6 months
of adventure..call it a sabattical if you like.

I understand that some people need to be lead around like sheep.
I've also taught many students that are loners who find themselves at
a point in their life where they have worked hard and life feels like
it has passed them by to a certain extent--like Neal was saying in
the other thread. They search for meaning in life and need some
great adventure--just for something to talk about when they return
to the "real" world of work and business. Some turn to sailing, in
part to find a circle of friends to do things with. I think it is rooted
in loneliness.


And many chose to jump into something that they'd never normally do,
to test themselves and develop from it.

I'll give Chay Blythe credit for giving these people a huge boost to
their self confidence. When you enter life and death situations, and
learn to rely on others while they rely on you, you do things you
might not otherwise do. It helps one find meaning in life. How could
it not? Offshore sailing like Dougs recent adventure has, I'm sure,
created crew bonds and memories for him that will last forever.


Ahhh, now you're starting to see the point.

I think a more confident person could develop skills and set off
without guidance and handholding, and find even greater meaning
in the experience. What do you think?


I think many of the most confident people in the world are smart
enough to rely on someone who knows what they are doing when they step
into something new.
People don't climb Everest because they want to live up there, they do
it to prove to themselves that they are capable of doing it..even
though most don't summit.
They take the best climbers they can find, and use locals with
intimate knowledge to make their climd as safe as possible.

Chay gives people that same opportunity, afloat.


Bart Senior





Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

Bart Senior wrote:
Most of the crews are from GB aren't they?

Sure, but then it's a British enterprise.

... These people are mostly
35-45 range are they not?


Take a look at the web site. A lot of 20-30s in there, including women.
Some older, too.

It's expensive, you can't expect teenagers to pony up tens of thousands
of dollars to sail around the world.



Tell me Bart, how would you go about racing around the world the wrong
way and saving dollars doing it?


I'd go the right way--downwind.

Well, don't take offense but you're not Chay Blythe! Going upwind... the
"wrong way"... is a big part of the challenge of this event.


There are lots of boats looking for crew. I'd start checking ads in
Latitude 38, and perhaps post one myself, find a boat and go. If
you want to race, then I'd recommend people starting with fleet racing.


Sure... but this isn't intended as a beginner sailing/racing course, or
even as a beginner ocean sailing course; any more than the guided "Climb
Mt Everest For $50K (or whatever it costs)" are instructional.



What are the rest of them doing? Freezing while keeping watch?
Doing the occassional sail change?

Probably yes; from what I've seen at least the Challenge crews don't
have to huddle along the windward rail. If the boats are actively racing
then you need two trimmers (or trimmer & grinder) and this is a pretty
active role, as well as helming.




Can you tell me how you'd organise rest periods with one hour watches?


I wouldn't want such a big crew to start with. Big crews mean more
money for Chay Blythe. That is the purpose of big crews.


Of course. You say that like it's a bad thing. You're not turning
Socialist, are you Bart ;)

Depending on the size of the vessel, an optimal crew size would be
around six, five crew, including skipper, and a cook. 2 on 8 off,
with hands call on deck for sail changes. This gives plenty of crew
rest for a distant voyage. One person helming and standing watch.
If conditions were colder and rougher, pehaps 1 on and 4 off.


That would work well for voyaging but not racing IMHO; unless of course
the crew size is limited. All else being equal, more crew = faster.

My understanding is Blythe takes people with relatively little experience.
The prinicipal qualification being--they have money.


It's a capitalistic society. Having money is the main qualification for
almost anything!

Bus seriously, it sounds like your objection to Blythe's operation is
that it's not what you'd like... going the wrong way, charging money,
big crews, etc etc.

If I was going to give advice to someone looking to make their life
more adventuresome, I tell them how to do it while keeping the bank
account intact. Or it they want to spend $35k+, these people could
buy a boat and at least be able to resell it at some point.


But, by the time one bought a boat and equipped it for going around the
world and then acquired the skills to do it oneself, one would have
spent far more in unrecoverable expenses... not to mention a lot more
time lost off work. Blythe's operation is a way for people to take up a
very demanding task... be shepherded through it (possibly even baby-sat,
at least a little bit)... and then take up their normal lives again. Is
that entirely a bad thing? It's certainly more efficient than expecting
all those people to buy their own boats.

Why should sailing be expensive? It doesn't have to be. In fact
a do-it-your-sefler can find economical ways to live an
adventuresome life afloat.


I definitely agree, but again: that's not the point of Blythe's enterprise.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"DSK" wrote

Bart Senior wrote:

I'd go the right way--downwind.

Well, don't take offense but you're not Chay Blythe! Going upwind... the
"wrong way"... is a big part of the challenge of this event.

None taken. Still, the reason they sail upwind is because it is
safer sailing upwind than downwind.