Wah wah wah! Poor Baby Neal is having a tantrum because someone used
a different paradigm from his!

Different vessels get on the list in different ways. Sailboats and
WIGs are built as one type, but become powerboats when used in that
mode. Ships can become fishing vessels or RAMs because of gear they
deploy. And not too many are built as NUCs, although any can end up
in that class. Overtaking is simply a class is is created by virtue
of the course and speed of a vessel.

This was not my mnemonic, it is simply the one I was taught. Frankly,
I would have preferred to put "Overtaken" at the other end of the
list, because even a NUC is required to stay clear of a vessel it
overtakes. If anything, CBD is the class that doesn't belong, because
it never becomes "stand-on" as defined by Rule 17. The pecking order
is a list of conditions that create stand-on/give-way relationships,
and overtaking should be on that list.

But this is simply a list to help people remember the rules. Why
should any such list bother Neal?

But there is a reason! Neal is trying to divert attention from his
own explanation of the pecking order, which is filled with blunders.
For instance, he claims RAMs must give way to NUCs. He says that a
fishing vessel trawling or pulling nets is a RAM, or a vessel towing
is a RAM. This last item is particularly egregious, because although
a tow may declare itself a RAM, it generally is the same as a
powerboat on the pecking order.

Neal goes on to similarly butcher the Narrow Channel rules, but that's
another story. Actually, my biggest complaint are the topics never
mentioned, such as the requirement to avoid collisions, or the need
for a lookout.

So its pretty clear why Neal is so obsessed about a non-issue; he's
just embarrassed about his own ignorance.



Capt. Neal® wrote:


You got it wrong AGAIN! Are you incapable of learning?

I told you plenty of times that your unilaterally adding 'overtaking'
to the bottom of the list is ludicrous.

Overtaking does not belong there, is not needed there, in incorrect
to place there and makes no sense there.

The pecking order lists classes of vessels. That's all it lists.
Any vessel can potentially overtake another. Overtaking is not
a class of vessels. Overtaking is an action of vessels.

STOP ADDING YOU OWN CRAP AND STOP CONFUSING THE
ISSUE WITH YOUR BULL****.

I've had it to here with amateurs like you attempting to re-write
the rules.

CN

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...

Bart Senior wrote:

List the precidence level for all possible types of precidence. 1 pt


Since don't seem to have any takers, here's my version:

The "Pecking Order" is often taught with a mnemonic device. The one I
learned was: "New Reels Catch Fish So Purchase Some Often." This
stands for

NUC - Not Under Command
RAM - Restricted Ability to Maneuver
CBD - Constrained By Draft
Fishing
Sail
Power
Seaplanes
Overtaking

Vessels lower on the list should give way to vessels higher.

Although this is the way it is taught, it is not quite accurate, nor
is it this simple. So here's points to keep in mind:

First of all, my "pet peeve" is that there is nothing in the rules
that puts NUCs above RAMs. They are considered equal in the rules.
Some will say the a NUC is more disabled than a RAM, but that isn't
necessarily true. Consider that a RAM could be a cable layer that
must follow a specific course, or even a dredge that can't move, while
a NUC might simple have a steering difficulty that limits
maneuverability somewhat. So what happens when a NUC meets a RAM?
They have to figure it out, they same way two RAMs would have to.

Next, the category of CBD simply does not exist in the US Inland
Rules. Why? I wouldn't want to second guess, but much of the US
Inland ship traffic is on the Western Rivers, which has it own rules,
based on long tradition. Also, most of the remaining Inland waters is
covered by Rule 9 (Narrow Channels) so in practice, little is changed.

The meaning of a "fishing boat" is sometimes confused. Rule 3 makes
it clear that this means having nets or gear deployed that restricts
maneuverability, but does not mean simply having a trolling line
deployed. In other words, a recreational fisher is generally not a
"vessel engaged in fishing." Similarly, a commercial boat without
gear deployed is simply a powerboat, but good luck explaining that to
a lobster boat headed for his next pot.

And drift fishermen should understand that they are still "underway."
Even if their engine is off, this cannot be determined other vessels,
so they are still required to stay clear of sailboats, etc.

It is worth noting that a recent change has added "Wing In Ground"
vessels. These are essentially very low flying airplanes, that skim
over the surface. They fall between Seaplanes and Overtaking in the
pecking order.

Another aspect worth considering is the meaning of "give way." For
several of the pecking order relationships, one vessel most "keep out
of the way" of the other, and Rule 16 is quite explicit that this
means: "take early and substantial action to keep well clear." This
means that the other vessel should be able to determine that you are
keeping clear, and should not even be tempted to alter course.

However, the CBD Rule is worded differently. It says other vessels
(not NUCS and RAMs) "shall avoid impeding" the passage of a CBD. The
same wording is used in Rules 9 and 10, concerning narrow channels and
TSS's. This is explained in Rule 8, and it means that you must allow
the other vessel the room to safely get around you. Of course, in
practice, if the CBD vessel is a 500 foot tanker, this could be taken
as meaning the same thing as "stay well clear," but its obvious that
this is different from the stand-on/give-way relationship of other
rules. In other words, a sailboat beating out a channel is still the
stand-on vessel with respect to a power boat coming in, however the
sailboat must give the powerboat a clear path to get around.

While I'm on the point of "shall not impede," some people have taken
the Narrow Channel Rule 8(b) ("A vessel of less than 20 meters in
length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel
which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway.")
as meaning that powerboats have right of way over sailboats in a
channel. This is simply not true. If the powerboat is under 20
meters, it falls under the same restriction as the sailboat.

One more thing: I was taught the rowboats have right of way over all
other boats. While this is true in some inland lakes not covered by
the Colregs or Inland rules, there is almost no mention of human
powered, or vessels under oars in the Colregs. Any "rights" rowboats
have come from the basic rules which apply to all vessels, and
especially Rule 2.

That's it for now.

Bart Senior wrote:
2 pts for Jeff

I thank you. These points will occupy a place of honor on my virtual
mantlepiece.


I was thinking he should add Overtaken to the top of the list.


Yes, I mention that in my rebuttal to Neal.


I've heard this method used to remember precidence.

Only Overtaken
New NUC -- Not Under Command
Reels RAM -- Restricted in Ability to Manuever
Catch CBD -- Constrainted By Draft
Fish Fishing
So Sailing
Purchase Power
Some Seaplane
Often Overtaking


The overtaking issue is one that needs to be reinforced. Its far more
important than NUCs, RAMs and CBDs.

You're too stupid to leave well enough alone. Pretty soon you're
going to add the kitchen sink to the list.

Just stop adding things to the list that don't belong there. That's
all I ask.

The more things you add the more confusion you cause.

Overtaking and Overtaken don't belong on the pecking order
list because Overtaken and Overtaking are not classes of
vessels described by their ability to maneuver. WIG
is a class so it does belong in the pecking order list. I
suppose it goes right above seaplane.

CN

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message ...
Wah wah wah! Poor Baby Neal is having a tantrum because someone used a different paradigm from his!

Different vessels get on the list in different ways. Sailboats and WIGs are built as one type, but become powerboats when used in
that mode. Ships can become fishing vessels or RAMs because of gear they deploy. And not too many are built as NUCs, although
any can end up in that class. Overtaking is simply a class is is created by virtue of the course and speed of a vessel.

This was not my mnemonic, it is simply the one I was taught. Frankly, I would have preferred to put "Overtaken" at the other end
of the list, because even a NUC is required to stay clear of a vessel it overtakes. If anything, CBD is the class that doesn't
belong, because it never becomes "stand-on" as defined by Rule 17. The pecking order is a list of conditions that create
stand-on/give-way relationships, and overtaking should be on that list.

But this is simply a list to help people remember the rules. Why should any such list bother Neal?

But there is a reason! Neal is trying to divert attention from his own explanation of the pecking order, which is filled with
blunders. For instance, he claims RAMs must give way to NUCs. He says that a fishing vessel trawling or pulling nets is a RAM, or
a vessel towing is a RAM. This last item is particularly egregious, because although a tow may declare itself a RAM, it generally
is the same as a powerboat on the pecking order.

Neal goes on to similarly butcher the Narrow Channel rules, but that's another story. Actually, my biggest complaint are the
topics never mentioned, such as the requirement to avoid collisions, or the need for a lookout.

So its pretty clear why Neal is so obsessed about a non-issue; he's just embarrassed about his own ignorance.



Capt. Neal® wrote:


You got it wrong AGAIN! Are you incapable of learning?

I told you plenty of times that your unilaterally adding 'overtaking'
to the bottom of the list is ludicrous.

Overtaking does not belong there, is not needed there, in incorrect
to place there and makes no sense there.

The pecking order lists classes of vessels. That's all it lists.
Any vessel can potentially overtake another. Overtaking is not
a class of vessels. Overtaking is an action of vessels.

STOP ADDING YOU OWN CRAP AND STOP CONFUSING THE
ISSUE WITH YOUR BULL****.

I've had it to here with amateurs like you attempting to re-write
the rules.

CN

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message ...

Bart Senior wrote:

List the precidence level for all possible types of precidence. 1 pt


Since don't seem to have any takers, here's my version:

The "Pecking Order" is often taught with a mnemonic device. The one I learned was: "New Reels Catch Fish So Purchase Some
Often." This stands for

NUC - Not Under Command
RAM - Restricted Ability to Maneuver
CBD - Constrained By Draft
Fishing
Sail
Power
Seaplanes
Overtaking

Vessels lower on the list should give way to vessels higher.

Although this is the way it is taught, it is not quite accurate, nor is it this simple. So here's points to keep in mind:

First of all, my "pet peeve" is that there is nothing in the rules that puts NUCs above RAMs. They are considered equal in the
rules. Some will say the a NUC is more disabled than a RAM, but that isn't necessarily true. Consider that a RAM could be a
cable layer that must follow a specific course, or even a dredge that can't move, while a NUC might simple have a steering
difficulty that limits maneuverability somewhat. So what happens when a NUC meets a RAM? They have to figure it out, they same
way two RAMs would have to.

Next, the category of CBD simply does not exist in the US Inland Rules. Why? I wouldn't want to second guess, but much of the
US Inland ship traffic is on the Western Rivers, which has it own rules, based on long tradition. Also, most of the remaining
Inland waters is covered by Rule 9 (Narrow Channels) so in practice, little is changed.

The meaning of a "fishing boat" is sometimes confused. Rule 3 makes it clear that this means having nets or gear deployed that
restricts maneuverability, but does not mean simply having a trolling line deployed. In other words, a recreational fisher is
generally not a "vessel engaged in fishing." Similarly, a commercial boat without gear deployed is simply a powerboat, but good
luck explaining that to a lobster boat headed for his next pot.

And drift fishermen should understand that they are still "underway." Even if their engine is off, this cannot be determined
other vessels, so they are still required to stay clear of sailboats, etc.

It is worth noting that a recent change has added "Wing In Ground" vessels. These are essentially very low flying airplanes,
that skim over the surface. They fall between Seaplanes and Overtaking in the pecking order.

Another aspect worth considering is the meaning of "give way." For several of the pecking order relationships, one vessel most
"keep out of the way" of the other, and Rule 16 is quite explicit that this means: "take early and substantial action to keep
well clear." This means that the other vessel should be able to determine that you are keeping clear, and should not even be
tempted to alter course.

However, the CBD Rule is worded differently. It says other vessels (not NUCS and RAMs) "shall avoid impeding" the passage of a
CBD. The same wording is used in Rules 9 and 10, concerning narrow channels and TSS's. This is explained in Rule 8, and it
means that you must allow the other vessel the room to safely get around you. Of course, in practice, if the CBD vessel is a
500 foot tanker, this could be taken as meaning the same thing as "stay well clear," but its obvious that this is different from
the stand-on/give-way relationship of other rules. In other words, a sailboat beating out a channel is still the stand-on
vessel with respect to a power boat coming in, however the sailboat must give the powerboat a clear path to get around.

While I'm on the point of "shall not impede," some people have taken the Narrow Channel Rule 8(b) ("A vessel of less than 20
meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow
channel or fairway.") as meaning that powerboats have right of way over sailboats in a channel. This is simply not true. If
the powerboat is under 20 meters, it falls under the same restriction as the sailboat.

One more thing: I was taught the rowboats have right of way over all other boats. While this is true in some inland lakes not
covered by the Colregs or Inland rules, there is almost no mention of human powered, or vessels under oars in the Colregs. Any
"rights" rowboats have come from the basic rules which apply to all vessels, and especially Rule 2.

That's it for now.

Last I checked, the rules don't mention "pecking order" either. That's a
bogus term made up by a bogus person.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
You posted the "pecking order" on your web site, but you got it wrong! I
thought I'd give you a chance to redeem yourself. But I guess you still
don't get it.

And you "broad sweeps" comment is more of your nonsense. The rules are
very simple. The pecking order applies, except for when rule 9, 10, or 13
applies.

Capt. Neal® wrote:
You lost one point, then because I'm not going to answer it, it's too.
easy.
What's this about 'rights' anyway? The Rules don't mention rights.

The Rules do go into detail on the pecking order of vessels and who
should give way to home. (Stand-on vs. give-way).

If Bart had asked the sensible question of which of these vessels
is the stand-on vessel in a certain situation, it could be answered
broadly but without more specifics, one cannot make broad sweeps
with the brush and do anything other than make a fool out of one's self.

For example, normally a sailboat is the stand-on vessel in a meeting
situation with a motorboat. However, if the sailboat is passing the
motorboat then the motorboat becomes the stand-on vessel.

You lost one point because you could not goad me into making rash,
broad statements which would be wrong is some cases. I'm too
smart to fall for it.

CN


"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...

I'll bet a point Neal gets this one wrong.


Bart Senior wrote:

1 pt each for Neal and Joe

Extra credit.

List the precidence level for these from most rights to least rights. 1
pt

List the precidence level for all possible types of precidence. 1 pt



INTERNATIONAL

Which vessel is to keep out of the way of the others?

A. A vessel constrained by her draft
B. A vessel engaged in underwater operations
C. A vessel engaged in trawling
D. A vessel not under command.

I hope you will read my post entitled Sunday Devotional. It concerns you . . .

CN

"JG" blathered
snip