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Evironmental Death via Bush
Dear NRDC BioGems Defender,
No one voted on Election Day to destroy the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. But President Bush is now claiming a mandate to do exactly that. Congressional leaders are pushing for a quick vote that would turn America's greatest sanctuary for Arctic wildlife into a vast, polluted oil field. Even worse, they are planning to avoid public debate on this devastating measure by hiding it in a must-pass budget bill. Please go to http://www.savebiogems.org/arctic/ta....asp?ms=RR0501 right now and send a message telling your U.S. senators and representative to reject this sneak attack on the Arctic Refuge. And please forward my message to your friends, family and colleagues. We must mobilize millions of Americans in opposition as quickly as possible. Don't believe for a second that the president is targeting the Arctic Refuge for the sake of America's energy security or to lower gas prices at the pump. President Bush knows full well that oil drilled in the Arctic Refuge would take ten years to get to market and would never equal more than a paltry one or two percent of our nation's daily consumption. Simply put, sacrificing the crown jewel of our wildlife heritage would do nothing to reduce gas prices or break our addiction to Persian Gulf oil. But if the raid on the Arctic Refuge isn't really about gas prices or energy security, then what is it about? It's the symbolism. The Arctic Refuge represents everything spectacular and everything endangered about America's natural heritage. It embodies a million years of ecological serenity . . . a vast stretch of pristine wilderness . . . an irreplaceable birthing ground for polar bears, caribou and white wolves. It is the greatest living reminder that conserving nature in its wild state is a core American value. It stands for every remnant of wilderness that we, as a people, have wisely chosen to protect from the relentless march of bulldozers, chain saws and oil rigs. And that's why the Bush administration is dead set on destroying it. By unlocking the Arctic Refuge, they hope to open the door for oil, gas and coal giants to invade our last and best wild places: our western canyonlands, our ancient forests, our coastal waters, even our national monuments. This is the real agenda behind the raid on the Arctic Refuge and the entire Bush-Cheney energy plan: to transfer our public estate into corporate hands so it can be liquidated for a quick buck. House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-TX) admitted as much when he said this battle over the Arctic Refuge is really a fight over whether energy exploration will be allowed in similarly sensitive areas in the future. "It's about precedent," Rep. DeLay said. I take him at his word. If we let the president and Congress plunder the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge for the sake of oil company profits, then no piece of our natural heritage will be safe from wholesale destruction. Please go to http://www.savebiogems.org/arctic/ta....asp?ms=RR0501 and tell your senators and representative they have no mandate to destroy the Arctic Refuge. Then please be sure to forward this message to as many people as you can. And thank you for speaking out at this critical time. Sincerely, Robert Redford Board of Trustees Natural Resources Defense Council (NRDC) |
Wow... you got a letter from Robert Redford.... you are well connected in
the movie industry aren't you Bob! BTW - tell Robert Redford that anyone who voted for Bush ... did indeed vote to turn the refuge into an oil field.... Duh!! CM "Bobsprit" wrote in message ... Dear NRDC BioGems Defender, No one voted on Election Day to destroy the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. But President Bush is now claiming a mandate to do exactly that. Congressional leaders are pushing for a quick vote that would turn America's greatest sanctuary for Arctic wildlife into a vast, polluted oil field. Even worse, they are planning to avoid public debate on this devastating measure by hiding it in a must-pass budget bill. Please go to http://www.savebiogems.org/arctic/ta....asp?ms=RR0501 right now and send a message telling your U.S. senators and representative to reject this sneak attack on the Arctic Refuge. And please forward my message to your friends, family and colleagues. We must mobilize millions of Americans in opposition as quickly as possible. Don't believe for a second that the president is targeting the Arctic Refuge for the sake of America's energy security or to lower gas prices at the pump. President Bush knows full well that oil drilled in the Arctic Refuge would take ten years to get to market and would never equal more than a paltry one or two percent of our nation's daily consumption. Simply put, sacrificing the crown jewel of our wildlife heritage would do nothing to reduce gas prices or break our addiction to Persian Gulf oil. But if the raid on the Arctic Refuge isn't really about gas prices or energy security, then what is it about? It's the symbolism. The Arctic Refuge represents everything spectacular and everything endangered about America's natural heritage. It embodies a million years of ecological serenity . . . a vast stretch of pristine wilderness . . . an irreplaceable birthing ground for polar bears, caribou and white wolves. It is the greatest living reminder that conserving nature in its wild state is a core American value. It stands for every remnant of wilderness that we, as a people, have wisely chosen to protect from the relentless march of bulldozers, chain saws and oil rigs. And that's why the Bush administration is dead set on destroying it. By unlocking the Arctic Refuge, they hope to open the door for oil, gas and coal giants to invade our last and best wild places: our western canyonlands, our ancient forests, our coastal waters, even our national monuments. This is the real agenda behind the raid on the Arctic Refuge and the entire Bush-Cheney energy plan: to transfer our public estate into corporate hands so it can be liquidated for a quick buck. House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-TX) admitted as much when he said this battle over the Arctic Refuge is really a fight over whether energy exploration will be allowed in similarly sensitive areas in the future. "It's about precedent," Rep. DeLay said. I take him at his word. If we let the president and Congress plunder the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge for the sake of oil company profits, then no piece of our natural heritage will be safe from wholesale destruction. Please go to http://www.savebiogems.org/arctic/ta....asp?ms=RR0501 and tell your senators and representative they have no mandate to destroy the Arctic Refuge. Then please be sure to forward this message to as many people as you can. And thank you for speaking out at this critical time. Sincerely, Robert Redford Board of Trustees Natural Resources Defense Council (NRDC) |
On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 11:21:51 GMT, "Capt. Mooron"
wrote this crap: Wow... you got a letter from Robert Redford.... you are well connected in the movie industry aren't you Bob! BTW - tell Robert Redford that anyone who voted for Bush ... did indeed vote to turn the refuge into an oil field.... Duh!! Better there, than in the Great Lakes. Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now! |
"Horvath" wrote in message ... On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 11:21:51 GMT, "Capt. Mooron" wrote this crap: Wow... you got a letter from Robert Redford.... you are well connected in the movie industry aren't you Bob! BTW - tell Robert Redford that anyone who voted for Bush ... did indeed vote to turn the refuge into an oil field.... Duh!! Better there, than in the Great Lakes. The Great Lakes are an environmental hazard... that's close enough! CM |
Bob,
Guess you never been fishing at an drilling or production rig have you? You dont know sqawt about the oilfield. It about time we reduce the dependence on other for our energy needs. More Nukes, More Drilling, More Solar, More wind. All made in America. Joe |
More like hot air.
-- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Joe" wrote in message oups.com... Bob, Guess you never been fishing at an drilling or production rig have you? You dont know sqawt about the oilfield. It about time we reduce the dependence on other for our energy needs. More Nukes, More Drilling, More Solar, More wind. All made in America. Joe |
World fuel consumption [demand] is exceeding supply. Oil
reserves will run out in our lifetimes. Scientists are now saying we will run out of fossil fuels before they have a significant impact on global warming. Get a clue. Every bit of mineral oil in the ground or under the sea, that can economically be extracted--will be extracted. No matter where it is. The entire world economy depends on it. You depend on it. If you really want to save the Artic, the solution is to push for legislation to develop and commericially market hydrogen fuels. Consider that from the prespective of geological time the life of Artic oil fields will be very short. Even if nothing was done to clean up damange, which would not happen, Mother Nature would solve this problem all by herself. The fact is there would be a clean up when we are done extracting this oil. There is nothing on the ocean that can long survive--no ship, no mining structure, and no mineral oil spill that Mother Nature won't clean up herself in a very short time. On land it takes a little longer. If you want to be concerned about the environment, be concerned about toxic chemicals and radiological contaminants--you will find those closer to home--not in the Artic. Let them pump all the oil and natural gas they can out of there and simply make sure they do a clean job of it and remove all the damage when they leave! Given time, there will be nothing significant to show we were there. If you really care, go up there and monitor what they are doing. I doubt you care enough to leave your warm home--heated with fossil fuel, and put action to your words. In five years oil prices will be sharply higher, and you will be mad at whoever is in office because fuel prices will be too high. People will have bigger concerns--like how to stay warm. "Bobsprit" wrote Dear NRDC BioGems Defender, No one voted on Election Day to destroy the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. But President Bush is now claiming a mandate to do exactly that. Congressional leaders are pushing for a quick vote that would turn America's greatest sanctuary for Arctic wildlife into a vast, polluted oil field. Even worse, they are planning to avoid public debate on this devastating measure by hiding it in a must-pass budget bill. Please go to http://www.savebiogems.org/arctic/ta....asp?ms=RR0501 right now and send a message telling your U.S. senators and representative to reject this sneak attack on the Arctic Refuge. And please forward my message to your friends, family and colleagues. We must mobilize millions of Americans in opposition as quickly as possible. Don't believe for a second that the president is targeting the Arctic Refuge for the sake of America's energy security or to lower gas prices at the pump. President Bush knows full well that oil drilled in the Arctic Refuge would take ten years to get to market and would never equal more than a paltry one or two percent of our nation's daily consumption. Simply put, sacrificing the crown jewel of our wildlife heritage would do nothing to reduce gas prices or break our addiction to Persian Gulf oil. But if the raid on the Arctic Refuge isn't really about gas prices or energy security, then what is it about? It's the symbolism. The Arctic Refuge represents everything spectacular and everything endangered about America's natural heritage. It embodies a million years of ecological serenity . . . a vast stretch of pristine wilderness . . . an irreplaceable birthing ground for polar bears, caribou and white wolves. It is the greatest living reminder that conserving nature in its wild state is a core American value. It stands for every remnant of wilderness that we, as a people, have wisely chosen to protect from the relentless march of bulldozers, chain saws and oil rigs. And that's why the Bush administration is dead set on destroying it. By unlocking the Arctic Refuge, they hope to open the door for oil, gas and coal giants to invade our last and best wild places: our western canyonlands, our ancient forests, our coastal waters, even our national monuments. This is the real agenda behind the raid on the Arctic Refuge and the entire Bush-Cheney energy plan: to transfer our public estate into corporate hands so it can be liquidated for a quick buck. House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-TX) admitted as much when he said this battle over the Arctic Refuge is really a fight over whether energy exploration will be allowed in similarly sensitive areas in the future. "It's about precedent," Rep. DeLay said. I take him at his word. If we let the president and Congress plunder the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge for the sake of oil company profits, then no piece of our natural heritage will be safe from wholesale destruction. Please go to http://www.savebiogems.org/arctic/ta....asp?ms=RR0501 and tell your senators and representative they have no mandate to destroy the Arctic Refuge. Then please be sure to forward this message to as many people as you can. And thank you for speaking out at this critical time. Sincerely, Robert Redford Board of Trustees Natural Resources Defense Council (NRDC) |
Oil is created by bacteria from organic material. It does not take thousands
of years to create. It can be created in a short time from biomass. Where does hydrogen occur naturally? How can it be gotten and yet there be a net energy gain? Whale blubber reserves are increasing. Using eco-statistical methods, before we die from global warming we will be crushed by excess whale blubber. "Bart Senior" wrote in message ... World fuel consumption [demand] is exceeding supply. Oil reserves will run out in our lifetimes. Scientists are now saying we will run out of fossil fuels before they have a significant impact on global warming. Get a clue. Every bit of mineral oil in the ground or under the sea, that can economically be extracted--will be extracted. No matter where it is. The entire world economy depends on it. You depend on it. If you really want to save the Artic, the solution is to push for legislation to develop and commericially market hydrogen fuels. Consider that from the prespective of geological time the life of Artic oil fields will be very short. Even if nothing was done to clean up damange, which would not happen, Mother Nature would solve this problem all by herself. The fact is there would be a clean up when we are done extracting this oil. There is nothing on the ocean that can long survive--no ship, no mining structure, and no mineral oil spill that Mother Nature won't clean up herself in a very short time. On land it takes a little longer. If you want to be concerned about the environment, be concerned about toxic chemicals and radiological contaminants--you will find those closer to home--not in the Artic. Let them pump all the oil and natural gas they can out of there and simply make sure they do a clean job of it and remove all the damage when they leave! Given time, there will be nothing significant to show we were there. If you really care, go up there and monitor what they are doing. I doubt you care enough to leave your warm home--heated with fossil fuel, and put action to your words. In five years oil prices will be sharply higher, and you will be mad at whoever is in office because fuel prices will be too high. People will have bigger concerns--like how to stay warm. "Bobsprit" wrote Dear NRDC BioGems Defender, No one voted on Election Day to destroy the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. But President Bush is now claiming a mandate to do exactly that. Congressional leaders are pushing for a quick vote that would turn America's greatest sanctuary for Arctic wildlife into a vast, polluted oil field. Even worse, they are planning to avoid public debate on this devastating measure by hiding it in a must-pass budget bill. Please go to http://www.savebiogems.org/arctic/ta....asp?ms=RR0501 right now and send a message telling your U.S. senators and representative to reject this sneak attack on the Arctic Refuge. And please forward my message to your friends, family and colleagues. We must mobilize millions of Americans in opposition as quickly as possible. Don't believe for a second that the president is targeting the Arctic Refuge for the sake of America's energy security or to lower gas prices at the pump. President Bush knows full well that oil drilled in the Arctic Refuge would take ten years to get to market and would never equal more than a paltry one or two percent of our nation's daily consumption. Simply put, sacrificing the crown jewel of our wildlife heritage would do nothing to reduce gas prices or break our addiction to Persian Gulf oil. But if the raid on the Arctic Refuge isn't really about gas prices or energy security, then what is it about? It's the symbolism. The Arctic Refuge represents everything spectacular and everything endangered about America's natural heritage. It embodies a million years of ecological serenity . . . a vast stretch of pristine wilderness . . . an irreplaceable birthing ground for polar bears, caribou and white wolves. It is the greatest living reminder that conserving nature in its wild state is a core American value. It stands for every remnant of wilderness that we, as a people, have wisely chosen to protect from the relentless march of bulldozers, chain saws and oil rigs. And that's why the Bush administration is dead set on destroying it. By unlocking the Arctic Refuge, they hope to open the door for oil, gas and coal giants to invade our last and best wild places: our western canyonlands, our ancient forests, our coastal waters, even our national monuments. This is the real agenda behind the raid on the Arctic Refuge and the entire Bush-Cheney energy plan: to transfer our public estate into corporate hands so it can be liquidated for a quick buck. House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-TX) admitted as much when he said this battle over the Arctic Refuge is really a fight over whether energy exploration will be allowed in similarly sensitive areas in the future. "It's about precedent," Rep. DeLay said. I take him at his word. If we let the president and Congress plunder the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge for the sake of oil company profits, then no piece of our natural heritage will be safe from wholesale destruction. Please go to http://www.savebiogems.org/arctic/ta....asp?ms=RR0501 and tell your senators and representative they have no mandate to destroy the Arctic Refuge. Then please be sure to forward this message to as many people as you can. And thank you for speaking out at this critical time. Sincerely, Robert Redford Board of Trustees Natural Resources Defense Council (NRDC) |
Bart Senior wrote:
World fuel consumption [demand] is exceeding supply. That's true, but it's somewhat of an artificially constructed political situation. At any given moment, producers could (if they wanted to) step up production to exceed demand. But it's doubtful that they could sustain it because demand is ramping up even with prices going up faster than inflation. So why go to the trouble, especially when it puts you and me (and all of the US) literally over a barrel? ... Oil reserves will run out in our lifetimes. Depends on how well you take care of yourself ;) ... Scientists are now saying we will run out of fossil fuels before they have a significant impact on global warming. ??? Which "scientists" are saying this? All but the paid shills are saying that our burning fossil fuels most likely have already had significant impact on the global climate. Get a clue. Every bit of mineral oil in the ground or under the sea, that can economically be extracted--will be extracted. No matter where it is. The entire world economy depends on it. You depend on it. That is exactly right. If you really want to save the Artic, the solution is to push for legislation to develop and commericially market hydrogen fuels. I dunno if hydrogen is closest on the horizon. Here's an important point: there are already off-the-shelf substitutes for fossil fuels. You could run your car on renewable methane tomorrow afternoon if you wanted to. Here's the problem... it's more expensive. So are all the current or forseeable alternatives. Why don't you put up a big solar panel and run your car off solar generated electricity? Because to get enough energy to drive very far or very fast, you'd spend thousands on soalr panels & fancy batteries, that's why! Etc etc etc. Until gasoline gets at least twice as expensive (and I'd be tempted to say 5X), there is no substitute. Consider that from the prespective of geological time the life of Artic oil fields will be very short. Agreed again. Even if nothing was done to clean up damange, which would not happen, Mother Nature would solve this problem all by herself. The fact is there would be a clean up when we are done extracting this oil. Yeah, but once the species livng there are wiped out, they're gone. Kaput. How are you going to "clean up" extinct species? There is nothing on the ocean that can long survive--no ship, no mining structure, and no mineral oil spill that Mother Nature won't clean up herself in a very short time. On land it takes a little longer. Now here I disagree. Prince William Sound has still not recovered fully from the Exxon Valdez spill. It is not at all easy to "clean up" a petroleum product spill. The best you can do it containerize it and put it someplace that's already ruined. If you want to be concerned about the environment, be concerned about toxic chemicals and radiological contaminants--you will find those closer to home--not in the Artic. Agreed again... with the caveat this is not a good excuse for trashing the arctic. Let them pump all the oil and natural gas they can out of there Naw, let's wait until it will be even more valuable. In five years oil prices will be sharply higher, and you will be mad at whoever is in office Most likely a Republican, if they reap all the campaign contributions that Wall Street is sure to shower on them when President Bush's Social Security plan goes through... But wait, I digress... agreed again. A good post Bart, thanks. Here's one added thing... if you think that fuel prices will get high enough for sailing ships to once again take over the world's commerce, that ain't gonna happen. As Phillip Bolger pointed out a long time ago, cargo ships are mortgaged, and they earn by the number of cargos they deliver... as long as motor ships (or steam ships) can average faster per ton/mile, they'll do the carrying. Regards Doug King because fuel prices will be too high. People will have bigger concerns--like how to stay warm. |
Actually, the answer is in the stars... or at least the moon and the
asteroids... -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Bart Senior" wrote in message ... World fuel consumption [demand] is exceeding supply. Oil reserves will run out in our lifetimes. Scientists are now saying we will run out of fossil fuels before they have a significant impact on global warming. Get a clue. Every bit of mineral oil in the ground or under the sea, that can economically be extracted--will be extracted. No matter where it is. The entire world economy depends on it. You depend on it. If you really want to save the Artic, the solution is to push for legislation to develop and commericially market hydrogen fuels. Consider that from the prespective of geological time the life of Artic oil fields will be very short. Even if nothing was done to clean up damange, which would not happen, Mother Nature would solve this problem all by herself. The fact is there would be a clean up when we are done extracting this oil. There is nothing on the ocean that can long survive--no ship, no mining structure, and no mineral oil spill that Mother Nature won't clean up herself in a very short time. On land it takes a little longer. If you want to be concerned about the environment, be concerned about toxic chemicals and radiological contaminants--you will find those closer to home--not in the Artic. Let them pump all the oil and natural gas they can out of there and simply make sure they do a clean job of it and remove all the damage when they leave! Given time, there will be nothing significant to show we were there. If you really care, go up there and monitor what they are doing. I doubt you care enough to leave your warm home--heated with fossil fuel, and put action to your words. In five years oil prices will be sharply higher, and you will be mad at whoever is in office because fuel prices will be too high. People will have bigger concerns--like how to stay warm. "Bobsprit" wrote Dear NRDC BioGems Defender, No one voted on Election Day to destroy the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. But President Bush is now claiming a mandate to do exactly that. Congressional leaders are pushing for a quick vote that would turn America's greatest sanctuary for Arctic wildlife into a vast, polluted oil field. Even worse, they are planning to avoid public debate on this devastating measure by hiding it in a must-pass budget bill. Please go to http://www.savebiogems.org/arctic/ta....asp?ms=RR0501 right now and send a message telling your U.S. senators and representative to reject this sneak attack on the Arctic Refuge. And please forward my message to your friends, family and colleagues. We must mobilize millions of Americans in opposition as quickly as possible. Don't believe for a second that the president is targeting the Arctic Refuge for the sake of America's energy security or to lower gas prices at the pump. President Bush knows full well that oil drilled in the Arctic Refuge would take ten years to get to market and would never equal more than a paltry one or two percent of our nation's daily consumption. Simply put, sacrificing the crown jewel of our wildlife heritage would do nothing to reduce gas prices or break our addiction to Persian Gulf oil. But if the raid on the Arctic Refuge isn't really about gas prices or energy security, then what is it about? It's the symbolism. The Arctic Refuge represents everything spectacular and everything endangered about America's natural heritage. It embodies a million years of ecological serenity . . . a vast stretch of pristine wilderness . . . an irreplaceable birthing ground for polar bears, caribou and white wolves. It is the greatest living reminder that conserving nature in its wild state is a core American value. It stands for every remnant of wilderness that we, as a people, have wisely chosen to protect from the relentless march of bulldozers, chain saws and oil rigs. And that's why the Bush administration is dead set on destroying it. By unlocking the Arctic Refuge, they hope to open the door for oil, gas and coal giants to invade our last and best wild places: our western canyonlands, our ancient forests, our coastal waters, even our national monuments. This is the real agenda behind the raid on the Arctic Refuge and the entire Bush-Cheney energy plan: to transfer our public estate into corporate hands so it can be liquidated for a quick buck. House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-TX) admitted as much when he said this battle over the Arctic Refuge is really a fight over whether energy exploration will be allowed in similarly sensitive areas in the future. "It's about precedent," Rep. DeLay said. I take him at his word. If we let the president and Congress plunder the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge for the sake of oil company profits, then no piece of our natural heritage will be safe from wholesale destruction. Please go to http://www.savebiogems.org/arctic/ta....asp?ms=RR0501 and tell your senators and representative they have no mandate to destroy the Arctic Refuge. Then please be sure to forward this message to as many people as you can. And thank you for speaking out at this critical time. Sincerely, Robert Redford Board of Trustees Natural Resources Defense Council (NRDC) |
"DSK" wrote in message Here's an important point: there are already off-the-shelf substitutes for fossil fuels. You could run your car on renewable methane tomorrow afternoon if you wanted to. Here's the problem... it's more expensive. So are all the current or forseeable alternatives. Why is ethanol completely ignored? We can grow corn til the cows come home (provided they don't take a shortcut through the cornfield). It's the most practical renewable resource today, and would benefit one of the most beleagured segments of society: farmers. Our local ethanol plant can produce a gallon of ethanol for less than 25 cents. Auto engines can be made to run on pure or slightly modified ethanol for less cost than to convert them to run on methane, and for a tiny fraction of the cost of hydrogen fuel cell technology. Until gasoline gets at least twice as expensive (and I'd be tempted to say 5X), there is no substitute. See above. Yeah, but once the species livng there are wiped out, they're gone. Kaput. How are you going to "clean up" extinct species? You don't. They become the oil for the next generation of higher beings, say, 20 billion years hence. g Now here I disagree. Prince William Sound has still not recovered fully from the Exxon Valdez spill. Some say it never will recover completely. Dig down into the beach sand and you'll find crude a few thousand years from now. Same with the bottom of the sound. An "ethanol spill" would have less than 10% the net deleterious effect of a crude spill, and the long-term effects would be negligible. So why is ethanol ignored? Simple: big oil wants it ignored. Far from perfect, alcohol possesses almost none of the negative environmental impact issues of petroleum. Max |
"JG" wrote in message Actually, the answer is in the stars... or at least the moon and the asteroids... Cosmic rays? Been wearing that foil beanie again, Jon? Max |
Read the book Moonrush. In the mean time, shut the **** up.
-- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Maxprop" wrote in message link.net... "JG" wrote in message Actually, the answer is in the stars... or at least the moon and the asteroids... Cosmic rays? Been wearing that foil beanie again, Jon? Max |
Here's an important point: there are already off-the-shelf substitutes for
fossil fuels. You could run your car on renewable methane tomorrow afternoon if you wanted to. Here's the problem... it's more expensive. So are all the current or forseeable alternatives. Maxprop wrote: Why is ethanol completely ignored? I don't know. ... We can grow corn til the cows come home (provided they don't take a shortcut through the cornfield). It's the most practical renewable resource today, and would benefit one of the most beleagured segments of society: farmers. Our local ethanol plant can produce a gallon of ethanol for less than 25 cents. Hmm.. Ethanol produces far less energy per unit burned, but not 85% less. So if this plant can really sell ethanol at 25c /gallon then it should be doing a booming business. ... Auto engines can be made to run on pure or slightly modified ethanol for less cost than to convert them to run on methane, and for a tiny fraction of the cost of hydrogen fuel cell technology. Agreed, the current approved mix is %15 ethanol by volume but for some reason pitch a fit about it. Yeah, but once the species livng there are wiped out, they're gone. Kaput. How are you going to "clean up" extinct species? You don't. They become the oil for the next generation of higher beings, say, 20 billion years hence. g You mean, when cockroaches finally replace us? Now here I disagree. Prince William Sound has still not recovered fully from the Exxon Valdez spill. Some say it never will recover completely. Dig down into the beach sand and you'll find crude a few thousand years from now. Same with the bottom of the sound. An "ethanol spill" would have less than 10% the net deleterious effect of a crude spill, and the long-term effects would be negligible. 2 points- ethanol evaporates quickly, so it's more likely to cause air pollution than water pollution; and since it's produced int eh cornfields we wouldn't be transporting it in huge ships anyway... well maybe to Japan ;) So why is ethanol ignored? Simple: big oil wants it ignored. Far from perfect, alcohol possesses almost none of the negative environmental impact issues of petroleum. Agreed. Why don't you send Cheney a memo on that. He won't return my calls. DSK |
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:03:53 -0500, "Bart Senior"
wrote this crap: World fuel consumption [demand] is exceeding supply. Oil reserves will run out in our lifetimes. I've been hearing that since 1973. Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now! |
On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 02:19:21 GMT, "Gilligan"
wrote this crap: Oil is created by bacteria from organic material. It does not take thousands of years to create. It can be created in a short time from biomass. Where does hydrogen occur naturally? Everywhere. The oceans are 2/3rds hydrogen. Your body is full of hydrogen. How can it be gotten and yet there be a net energy gain? Fusion. Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now! |
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:00:00 -0800, "JG" wrote
this crap: Actually, the answer is in the stars... or at least the moon and the asteroids... And watch out for the Klingons around Uranus. Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now! |
A couple of "corrections" Bart.... from someone experienced in the Arctic
and who has witnessed what total havoc can be accomplished even under "strict guidelines" "Bart Senior" wrote in message ... Even if nothing was done to clean up damange, which would not happen, Mother Nature would solve this problem all by herself. The fact is there would be a clean up when we are done extracting this oil. Disagree.... take a look at the Dew Line sites. Still not cleaned up.... areas surrounding the sites have been subject to oil drum storage and leaking of contaminants. Simple track marks from a dozer used 30 years ago are still clearly visible. Destruction of ground cover from over 30 years ago has still not recovered. For all it's formidable and hostile environment.. the Tundra is 1000 times more susceptable to environmental damage than Taiga or Boreal areas. The permafrost degradation alone is massive at any excavation or penetration of the substrate. Migration patterns are altered or distrupted causing severe problems in fauna management. Even the current strict guidelines for the relatively clean operation of diamond mining is having a negative impact. There has been no "clean-up" of any sites used by companies since these sites are sold, traded and resold so many times that the original owners are not held accountable and the last company in usually goes bankrupt ...leaving clean-up to the taxpayers. I can assure you this is an industry wide standard in avioding clean-up costs. It's exactly what will happen this time as well.... it's still amazing to some that companies will promise whatever it will take to access the sites..... what's even more amazing is that despite historical data proving otherwise... they believe the corporate world to have a concience and ethics. There is nothing on the ocean that can long survive--no ship, no mining structure, and no mineral oil spill that Mother Nature won't clean up herself in a very short time. On land it takes a little longer. I take it you are referring to geological timelines... because a 100 years is a very long time to me! If you want to be concerned about the environment, be concerned about toxic chemicals and radiological contaminants--you will find those closer to home--not in the Artic. If you can't control your own backyard... what makes you think you wll have any control in such a remote and isolated area? Let them pump all the oil and natural gas they can out of there and simply make sure they do a clean job of it and remove all the damage when they leave! Given time, there will be nothing significant to show we were there. If you really care, go up there and monitor what they are doing. I doubt you care enough to leave your warm home--heated with fossil fuel, and put action to your words. They won't clean it up.... a thousand years from now evidence of their activities will still be seen and the impact on the ecosystem will still be ongoing. In five years oil prices will be sharply higher, and you will be mad at whoever is in office because fuel prices will be too high. People will have bigger concerns--like how to stay warm. Here's a clue... have everyone practise birth control and drastically reduce the population of the world. CM |
"Maxprop" wrote in message Why is ethanol completely ignored? We can grow corn til the cows come home (provided they don't take a shortcut through the cornfield). It's the most practical renewable resource today, and would benefit one of the most beleagured segments of society: farmers. Our local ethanol plant can produce a gallon of ethanol for less than 25 cents. Auto engines can be made to run on pure or slightly modified ethanol for less cost than to convert them to run on methane, and for a tiny fraction of the cost of hydrogen fuel cell technology. We sell ethanol at the pumps here in Canada..... it's not that cheap! CM |
Birth control? But then what excuse would Moms have to drive an SUV?
SV "Capt. Mooron" wrote Here's a clue... have everyone practise birth control and drastically reduce the population of the world. CM |
"Bart Senior" wrote
If you really want to save the Artic, the solution is to push for legislation to develop and commericially market hydrogen fuels. But Hydrogen is extracted from water using electricity that, in turn, must be generated somehow. |
That is bound hydrogen. The fuel is atomic hydrogen, which is unbound. The
energy cost is in breaking the bond. Did you know that gasoline has lots of hydrogen in it? "Horvath" wrote in message ... On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 02:19:21 GMT, "Gilligan" wrote this crap: Oil is created by bacteria from organic material. It does not take thousands of years to create. It can be created in a short time from biomass. Where does hydrogen occur naturally? Everywhere. The oceans are 2/3rds hydrogen. Your body is full of hydrogen. How can it be gotten and yet there be a net energy gain? Fusion. Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now! |
Ethanol is heavily subsidized in the US thanks to Cargill and Bob Dole. It
actually increases pollution by lowering the gas mileage and efficiency of a car engine. Looking at the total production cycle ethanol is a bust as far as cost and pollution. "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message news:3m1Pd.44113$gA4.39345@edtnps89... "Maxprop" wrote in message Why is ethanol completely ignored? We can grow corn til the cows come home (provided they don't take a shortcut through the cornfield). It's the most practical renewable resource today, and would benefit one of the most beleagured segments of society: farmers. Our local ethanol plant can produce a gallon of ethanol for less than 25 cents. Auto engines can be made to run on pure or slightly modified ethanol for less cost than to convert them to run on methane, and for a tiny fraction of the cost of hydrogen fuel cell technology. We sell ethanol at the pumps here in Canada..... it's not that cheap! CM |
Dinosaur tracks have lasted for millions of years and we still find their
turds laying around. Tundra smundra! The next ice age/global warming episode will clean things up. "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message news:Tk1Pd.44112$gA4.23254@edtnps89... A couple of "corrections" Bart.... from someone experienced in the Arctic and who has witnessed what total havoc can be accomplished even under "strict guidelines" "Bart Senior" wrote in message ... Even if nothing was done to clean up damange, which would not happen, Mother Nature would solve this problem all by herself. The fact is there would be a clean up when we are done extracting this oil. Disagree.... take a look at the Dew Line sites. Still not cleaned up.... areas surrounding the sites have been subject to oil drum storage and leaking of contaminants. Simple track marks from a dozer used 30 years ago are still clearly visible. Destruction of ground cover from over 30 years ago has still not recovered. For all it's formidable and hostile environment.. the Tundra is 1000 times more susceptable to environmental damage than Taiga or Boreal areas. The permafrost degradation alone is massive at any excavation or penetration of the substrate. Migration patterns are altered or distrupted causing severe problems in fauna management. Even the current strict guidelines for the relatively clean operation of diamond mining is having a negative impact. There has been no "clean-up" of any sites used by companies since these sites are sold, traded and resold so many times that the original owners are not held accountable and the last company in usually goes bankrupt ...leaving clean-up to the taxpayers. I can assure you this is an industry wide standard in avioding clean-up costs. It's exactly what will happen this time as well.... it's still amazing to some that companies will promise whatever it will take to access the sites..... what's even more amazing is that despite historical data proving otherwise... they believe the corporate world to have a concience and ethics. There is nothing on the ocean that can long survive--no ship, no mining structure, and no mineral oil spill that Mother Nature won't clean up herself in a very short time. On land it takes a little longer. I take it you are referring to geological timelines... because a 100 years is a very long time to me! If you want to be concerned about the environment, be concerned about toxic chemicals and radiological contaminants--you will find those closer to home--not in the Artic. If you can't control your own backyard... what makes you think you wll have any control in such a remote and isolated area? Let them pump all the oil and natural gas they can out of there and simply make sure they do a clean job of it and remove all the damage when they leave! Given time, there will be nothing significant to show we were there. If you really care, go up there and monitor what they are doing. I doubt you care enough to leave your warm home--heated with fossil fuel, and put action to your words. They won't clean it up.... a thousand years from now evidence of their activities will still be seen and the impact on the ecosystem will still be ongoing. In five years oil prices will be sharply higher, and you will be mad at whoever is in office because fuel prices will be too high. People will have bigger concerns--like how to stay warm. Here's a clue... have everyone practise birth control and drastically reduce the population of the world. CM |
"Scott Vernon" wrote in message ... Birth control? But then what excuse would Moms have to drive an SUV? SV So they wouldn't need to pay $30 for someone to put chains on their sedan!?? CM |
I think we should go to Pedal Cars... think of the advantage in health and
the environment... never mind the drastic reduction of fatal highway accidents. CM "Gilligan" wrote in message nk.net... Ethanol is heavily subsidized in the US thanks to Cargill and Bob Dole. It actually increases pollution by lowering the gas mileage and efficiency of a car engine. Looking at the total production cycle ethanol is a bust as far as cost and pollution. "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message news:3m1Pd.44113$gA4.39345@edtnps89... "Maxprop" wrote in message Why is ethanol completely ignored? We can grow corn til the cows come home (provided they don't take a shortcut through the cornfield). It's the most practical renewable resource today, and would benefit one of the most beleagured segments of society: farmers. Our local ethanol plant can produce a gallon of ethanol for less than 25 cents. Auto engines can be made to run on pure or slightly modified ethanol for less cost than to convert them to run on methane, and for a tiny fraction of the cost of hydrogen fuel cell technology. We sell ethanol at the pumps here in Canada..... it's not that cheap! CM |
Horvath wants to be bound.... and gagged.
-- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Gilligan" wrote in message ink.net... That is bound hydrogen. The fuel is atomic hydrogen, which is unbound. The energy cost is in breaking the bond. Did you know that gasoline has lots of hydrogen in it? "Horvath" wrote in message ... On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 02:19:21 GMT, "Gilligan" wrote this crap: Oil is created by bacteria from organic material. It does not take thousands of years to create. It can be created in a short time from biomass. Where does hydrogen occur naturally? Everywhere. The oceans are 2/3rds hydrogen. Your body is full of hydrogen. How can it be gotten and yet there be a net energy gain? Fusion. Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now! |
That's very gay of you...
-- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Horvath" wrote in message ... On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:00:00 -0800, "JG" wrote this crap: Actually, the answer is in the stars... or at least the moon and the asteroids... And watch out for the Klingons around Uranus. Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now! |
And it's been true and will continue to be true.
-- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Horvath" wrote in message ... On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:03:53 -0500, "Bart Senior" wrote this crap: World fuel consumption [demand] is exceeding supply. Oil reserves will run out in our lifetimes. I've been hearing that since 1973. Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now! |
"JG" wrote in message ... Horvath wants to be bound.... and gagged. And I want to spank you with a big rubber paddle! Gilligan |
You are a genius!
"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message news:Qt3Pd.44150$gA4.4289@edtnps89... I think we should go to Pedal Cars... think of the advantage in health and the environment... never mind the drastic reduction of fatal highway accidents. CM "Gilligan" wrote in message nk.net... Ethanol is heavily subsidized in the US thanks to Cargill and Bob Dole. It actually increases pollution by lowering the gas mileage and efficiency of a car engine. Looking at the total production cycle ethanol is a bust as far as cost and pollution. "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message news:3m1Pd.44113$gA4.39345@edtnps89... "Maxprop" wrote in message Why is ethanol completely ignored? We can grow corn til the cows come home (provided they don't take a shortcut through the cornfield). It's the most practical renewable resource today, and would benefit one of the most beleagured segments of society: farmers. Our local ethanol plant can produce a gallon of ethanol for less than 25 cents. Auto engines can be made to run on pure or slightly modified ethanol for less cost than to convert them to run on methane, and for a tiny fraction of the cost of hydrogen fuel cell technology. We sell ethanol at the pumps here in Canada..... it's not that cheap! CM |
What's the matter? ****ed off that you got bounced because you use a bunch
of sockpuppets? -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Gilligan" wrote in message ink.net... "JG" wrote in message ... Horvath wants to be bound.... and gagged. And I want to spank you with a big rubber paddle! Gilligan |
"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message news:o93Pd.44140$gA4.18068@edtnps89... "Scott Vernon" wrote in message ... Birth control? But then what excuse would Moms have to drive an SUV? SV So they wouldn't need to pay $30 for someone to put chains on their sedan!?? Some of those soccer moms are pretty tuff. Most could beat up Gaynzy and not break a sweat. SV |
"Scott Vernon" wrote in message ... "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message news:o93Pd.44140$gA4.18068@edtnps89... "Scott Vernon" wrote in message ... Birth control? But then what excuse would Moms have to drive an SUV? SV So they wouldn't need to pay $30 for someone to put chains on their sedan!?? Some of those soccer moms are pretty tuff. Most could beat up Gaynzy and not break a sweat. Their kids could lay a can of whoop ass on Ganzy and not break a sweat!!! CM |
No, I think you are cute!
Love, Gilligan "JG" wrote in message ... What's the matter? ****ed off that you got bounced because you use a bunch of sockpuppets? -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Gilligan" wrote in message ink.net... "JG" wrote in message ... Horvath wants to be bound.... and gagged. And I want to spank you with a big rubber paddle! Gilligan |
Oh, so you're not ****ed off you got booted off... ok. Thanks for the
clarification. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Gilligan" wrote in message ink.net... No, I think you are cute! Love, Gilligan "JG" wrote in message ... What's the matter? ****ed off that you got bounced because you use a bunch of sockpuppets? -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Gilligan" wrote in message ink.net... "JG" wrote in message ... Horvath wants to be bound.... and gagged. And I want to spank you with a big rubber paddle! Gilligan |
Reported!
-- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message news:LabPd.44348$gA4.4274@edtnps89... "Scott Vernon" wrote in message ... "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message news:o93Pd.44140$gA4.18068@edtnps89... "Scott Vernon" wrote in message ... Birth control? But then what excuse would Moms have to drive an SUV? SV So they wouldn't need to pay $30 for someone to put chains on their sedan!?? Some of those soccer moms are pretty tuff. Most could beat up Gaynzy and not break a sweat. Their kids could lay a can of whoop ass on Ganzy and not break a sweat!!! CM |
Booted off where for what?
You're still a cutie! "JG" wrote in message ... Oh, so you're not ****ed off you got booted off... ok. Thanks for the clarification. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Gilligan" wrote in message ink.net... No, I think you are cute! Love, Gilligan "JG" wrote in message ... What's the matter? ****ed off that you got bounced because you use a bunch of sockpuppets? -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Gilligan" wrote in message ink.net... "JG" wrote in message ... Horvath wants to be bound.... and gagged. And I want to spank you with a big rubber paddle! Gilligan |
On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 13:47:23 GMT, "Gilligan"
wrote this crap: That is bound hydrogen. The fuel is atomic hydrogen, which is unbound. The energy cost is in breaking the bond. Did you know that gasoline has lots of hydrogen in it? I can write you the chemical formula for heptane, hexane, and octane. "Horvath" wrote in message .. . On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 02:19:21 GMT, "Gilligan" wrote this crap: Oil is created by bacteria from organic material. It does not take thousands of years to create. It can be created in a short time from biomass. Where does hydrogen occur naturally? Everywhere. The oceans are 2/3rds hydrogen. Your body is full of hydrogen. How can it be gotten and yet there be a net energy gain? Fusion. Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now! Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now! |
Plonk
"Gilligan" wrote in message nk.net... Booted off where for what? You're still a cutie! "JG" wrote in message ... Oh, so you're not ****ed off you got booted off... ok. Thanks for the clarification. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Gilligan" wrote in message ink.net... No, I think you are cute! Love, Gilligan "JG" wrote in message ... What's the matter? ****ed off that you got bounced because you use a bunch of sockpuppets? -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Gilligan" wrote in message ink.net... "JG" wrote in message ... Horvath wants to be bound.... and gagged. And I want to spank you with a big rubber paddle! Gilligan |
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