"Bart Senior" wrote

If you really want to save the Artic, the solution is to push for
legislation to develop and commericially market hydrogen fuels.

But Hydrogen is extracted from water using electricity that, in turn, must
be generated somehow.

That is bound hydrogen. The fuel is atomic hydrogen, which is unbound. The
energy cost is in breaking the bond. Did you know that gasoline has lots of
hydrogen in it?
"Horvath" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 02:19:21 GMT, "Gilligan"
wrote this crap:

Oil is created by bacteria from organic material. It does not take
thousands
of years to create. It can be created in a short time from biomass.

Where does hydrogen occur naturally?

Everywhere. The oceans are 2/3rds hydrogen. Your body is full of
hydrogen.


How can it be gotten and yet there be
a net energy gain?


Fusion.





Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now!

Ethanol is heavily subsidized in the US thanks to Cargill and Bob Dole. It
actually increases pollution by lowering the gas mileage and efficiency of a
car engine. Looking at the total production cycle ethanol is a bust as far
as cost and pollution.
"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:3m1Pd.44113$gA4.39345@edtnps89...

"Maxprop" wrote in message

Why is ethanol completely ignored? We can grow corn til the cows come
home (provided they don't take a shortcut through the cornfield). It's
the most practical renewable resource today, and would benefit one of
the
most beleagured segments of society: farmers. Our local ethanol plant
can produce a gallon of ethanol for less than 25 cents. Auto engines
can
be made to run on pure or slightly modified ethanol for less cost than
to
convert them to run on methane, and for a tiny fraction of the cost of
hydrogen fuel cell technology.

We sell ethanol at the pumps here in Canada..... it's not that cheap!

CM

Dinosaur tracks have lasted for millions of years and we still find their
turds laying around. Tundra smundra! The next ice age/global warming episode
will clean things up.



"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:Tk1Pd.44112$gA4.23254@edtnps89...
A couple of "corrections" Bart.... from someone experienced in the Arctic
and who has witnessed what total havoc can be accomplished even under
"strict guidelines"

"Bart Senior" wrote in message
...

Even if nothing was done to clean up damange, which would
not happen, Mother Nature would solve this problem all by herself.
The fact is there would be a clean up when we are done extracting
this oil.

Disagree.... take a look at the Dew Line sites. Still not cleaned up....
areas surrounding the sites have been subject to oil drum storage and
leaking of contaminants. Simple track marks from a dozer used 30 years ago
are still clearly visible. Destruction of ground cover from over 30 years
ago has still not recovered. For all it's formidable and hostile
environment.. the Tundra is 1000 times more susceptable to environmental
damage than Taiga or Boreal areas. The permafrost degradation alone is
massive at any excavation or penetration of the substrate. Migration
patterns are altered or distrupted causing severe problems in fauna
management. Even the current strict guidelines for the relatively clean
operation of diamond mining is having a negative impact. There has been no
"clean-up" of any sites used by companies since these sites are sold,
traded
and resold so many times that the original owners are not held accountable
and the last company in usually goes bankrupt ...leaving clean-up to the
taxpayers. I can assure you this is an industry wide standard in avioding
clean-up costs. It's exactly what will happen this time as well.... it's
still amazing to some that companies will promise whatever it will take to
access the sites..... what's even more amazing is that despite historical
data proving otherwise... they believe the corporate world to have a
concience and ethics.


There is nothing on the ocean that can long survive--no ship,
no mining structure, and no mineral oil spill that Mother Nature
won't clean up herself in a very short time. On land it takes a
little longer.

I take it you are referring to geological timelines... because a 100 years
is a very long time to me!


If you want to be concerned about the environment, be concerned
about toxic chemicals and radiological contaminants--you will
find those closer to home--not in the Artic.

If you can't control your own backyard... what makes you think you wll
have
any control in such a remote and isolated area?



Let them pump all the oil and natural gas they can out of there and
simply make sure they do a clean job of it and remove all the
damage when they leave! Given time, there will be nothing
significant to show we were there. If you really care, go up there
and monitor what they are doing. I doubt you care enough to leave
your warm home--heated with fossil fuel, and put action to your
words.

They won't clean it up.... a thousand years from now evidence of their
activities will still be seen and the impact on the ecosystem will still
be
ongoing.


In five years oil prices will be sharply higher, and you will be
mad at whoever is in office because fuel prices will be too high.
People will have bigger concerns--like how to stay warm.

Here's a clue... have everyone practise birth control and drastically
reduce
the population of the world.

CM

"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...
Birth control? But then what excuse would Moms have to drive an SUV?

SV

So they wouldn't need to pay $30 for someone to put chains on their sedan!??

CM

I think we should go to Pedal Cars... think of the advantage in health and
the environment... never mind the drastic reduction of fatal highway
accidents.

CM

"Gilligan" wrote in message
nk.net...
Ethanol is heavily subsidized in the US thanks to Cargill and Bob Dole. It
actually increases pollution by lowering the gas mileage and efficiency of
a
car engine. Looking at the total production cycle ethanol is a bust as far
as cost and pollution.
"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
news:3m1Pd.44113$gA4.39345@edtnps89...

"Maxprop" wrote in message

Why is ethanol completely ignored? We can grow corn til the cows come
home (provided they don't take a shortcut through the cornfield). It's
the most practical renewable resource today, and would benefit one of
the
most beleagured segments of society: farmers. Our local ethanol plant
can produce a gallon of ethanol for less than 25 cents. Auto engines
can
be made to run on pure or slightly modified ethanol for less cost than
to
convert them to run on methane, and for a tiny fraction of the cost of
hydrogen fuel cell technology.

We sell ethanol at the pumps here in Canada..... it's not that cheap!

CM

Horvath wants to be bound.... and gagged.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Gilligan" wrote in message
ink.net...
That is bound hydrogen. The fuel is atomic hydrogen, which is unbound. The
energy cost is in breaking the bond. Did you know that gasoline has lots
of
hydrogen in it?
"Horvath" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 02:19:21 GMT, "Gilligan"
wrote this crap:

Oil is created by bacteria from organic material. It does not take
thousands
of years to create. It can be created in a short time from biomass.

Where does hydrogen occur naturally?

Everywhere. The oceans are 2/3rds hydrogen. Your body is full of
hydrogen.


How can it be gotten and yet there be
a net energy gain?


Fusion.





Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now!

That's very gay of you...

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Horvath" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:00:00 -0800, "JG" wrote
this crap:

Actually, the answer is in the stars... or at least the moon and the
asteroids...


And watch out for the Klingons around Uranus.






Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now!

And it's been true and will continue to be true.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Horvath" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:03:53 -0500, "Bart Senior"
wrote this crap:

World fuel consumption [demand] is exceeding supply. Oil
reserves will run out in our lifetimes.


I've been hearing that since 1973.






Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now!

"JG" wrote in message
...
Horvath wants to be bound.... and gagged.

And I want to spank you with a big rubber paddle!

Gilligan