"Maxprop" wrote in message
k.net...

"Donal" wrote in message


ADOLPH HITLER, 1935

What's your point? Are you suggesting that Hitler got nothing at all
right?

What about the economic successes ... the Autobahns ... the railways
....
the Space Race?

Some of us find it difficult to give the guy credit for anything positive
in
light of the fact that he attempted to annihilate an entire ethnic
culture/race of people.

How hypocritical!

I bet that you are able to claim that you beat the Russians in the race to
the Moon.

Do you know the names of any of the scientists who developed your first
rockets?

IIRC, your leading scientist was a chap called Von Braun. You rescued him
from Hitler at the end of WW2 so that you could develop a space programme
based on German technology.


The current success of the Cassini/Huygens mission is a direct result of
research that Hitler funded. Your attitude is a direct result of PC
thinking. Hitler was an evil man. That doesn't mean that everything that
he did was evil. The Pope is a Good man ... that doesn't mean that he has
never done anything that he would be ashamed of.

The world isn't black and white. There are shades of grey.


Regards


Donal
--




Max

OzOne wrote in message

On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 05:13:10 GMT, "Maxprop"
scribbled thusly:


OzOne wrote in message

As opposed to dropping A bombs on cities "to save lives"

1. They started the war with us.
2. They vowed to fight to "the death of every Japanese man, woman, and
child," even when it was clearly obvious that they could not win.
3. We would have accomplished the same thing over a period of time with
conventional weapons, had the Japanese not surrendered, which was
unlikely.
4. It had to happen. Nuclear weapons had been developed, initially by
the
Germans and brought to fruition by the Americans. Someone at some time
had
to use a nuke, if for no other reason than to demonstrate to the world the
awesome destructive power of such weapons. The whole concept of MAD
(mutual
assured destruction), which kept the cold war from heating up for nearly
40
years, would not have been realized had no one ever dropped "the bomb."
It
was an inevitable step in the evolution of international relations, like
it
or not.
5. The Japanese deserved it.

Max


Max, have you ever heard anything about this
http://tinyurl.com/57pvh

"he first atomic bomb was exploded over Hiroshima on August 5, 1945;
the second was detonated over Nagasaki four days later. On August 8th,
the Soviet Union declared war on an already beaten Japan. But other
Japanese attempts to surrender had been coming fast and furious prior
to these historically important developments.

One of the most compelling was transmitted by General MacArthur to
President Roosevelt in January 1945, prior to the Yalta conference.
MacArthur's communiqué stated that the Japanese were willing to
surrender under terms which included:

. Full surrender of Japanese forces on sea, in the air, at home, on
island possessions, and in occupied countries.

. Surrender of all arms and munitions. · Occupation of the Japanese
homeland and island possessions by allied troops under American
direction.

. Japanese relinquishment of Manchuria, Korea, and Formosa, as well as
all territory seized during the war.

. Regulation of Japanese industry to halt present and future
production of implements of war.

. Turning over of Japanese which the United States might designate war
criminals.

. Release of all prisoners of war and internees in Japan and in areas
under Japanese control.

Amazingly, these were identical to the terms which were accepted by
our government for the surrender of Japan seven months later. Had they
been accepted when first offered, there would have been no heavy loss
of life on Iwo Jima (over 26,033 Americans killed or wounded,
approximately 21,000 Japanese killed) and Okinawa (over 39,000 U.S.
dead and wounded, 109,000 Japanese dead), no fire bombing of Japanese
cities by B-29 bombers (it is estimated that the dropping of 1,700
tons of incendiary explosives on Japanese cities during March 9th-10th
alone killed over 80,000 civilians and destroyed 260,000 buildings),
and no use of the atomic bomb.

Countless thousands of Japanese civilians perished as a result of the
atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And the world was
suddenly and violently brought into the atomic age."

Makes you think that the lives of all those, Japanese and Allies were
sacrificed because the bomb needed to be completed and tested.

Nice piece of revisionist history, Oz, but it won't fly.

On July 26, 1945 (it was 7/27 am in Tokyo) the Potsdam Proclaim was
broadcast in Japanese, demanding unconditional surrender. The Japanese
rejected it, complaining that no provision had been made to insure the
protection of Emperor Hirohito, whom they believed to be a god. At this
time Yoshijiro Umezu, Chief of Army General Staff, and a number of other
top-ranking officers, vowed to "fight to the death of every Japanese man,
woman, and child . . ." Soon thereafter American troop carriers, such as
the Indianapolis, were sunk, with substantial loss of life. On August 6,
1945, Hiroshima was bombed with a type of weapon previously unused in
combat. Nagasaki followed. On September 2, 1945, Japan surrendered
unconditionally, having indicated a desire to do so some three weeks
earlier.

The best independent (read: non-government) experts on WWII, South Pacific
Theater, are convinced that the war would have lingered for another 6 months
to a year, had the bombs not been used. Only the anti-US revisionists
believe otherwise. I have no doubt on which side of the issue you fall.

Max

1. They started the war with us.

Yep. It made sense, from their point of view, at the time. Japan in the
late 1920s and the 1930s headed down the same track that the U.S. is on
now ie gov't closely aligned with military industries.

2. They vowed to fight to "the death of every Japanese man, woman, and
child," even when it was clearly obvious that they could not win.

Also true, although it's hard to say wether every single Japanese man,
woman, and child, would have agreed.

3. We would have accomplished the same thing over a period of time with
conventional weapons, had the Japanese not surrendered, which was
unlikely.

We definitely could have accomplished the same thing over a longer
period of time.

4. It had to happen. Nuclear weapons had been developed, initially by
the
Germans and brought to fruition by the Americans.

Utter nonsense.

"It _had_ to happen" ??!?!!

The German nuclear research projects underway in the late 1930s was hurt
by the flight of some of their best scientists, most notably of course
Einstein, and most of the scientists remaining (while probably capable
of building a bomb, or at least radiation enhanced weapons) despised the
Nazis and would never have built such weapons for Hitler.

Remember, the fascist (or Bushist) state distrusts & shackles science,
sneers at intellect, and stamps out open enquiry.



It
was an inevitable step in the evolution of international relations, like
it
or not.

Jingoistic malarkey

5. The Japanese deserved it.

Possibly. But would you agree that had the Japanese developed the bomb
first (and they were closer than a lot of people think), tied one to one
of their strategic balloon bombers, and nuked the U.S. mainland, that we
"deserved it"?

Max, have you ever heard anything about this
http://tinyurl.com/57pvh

"he first atomic bomb was exploded over Hiroshima on August 5, 1945;
the second was detonated over Nagasaki four days later. On August 8th,
the Soviet Union declared war on an already beaten Japan. But other
Japanese attempts to surrender had been coming fast and furious prior
to these historically important developments.

There was no communication between the U.S. and Japanese gov'ts. There
were some attempts made by indirect channels to open negotiations, most
notably right after Pearl Harbor and early 1945. IIRC most of these
attempts went through Dutch colonial offices. The U.S. gov't rejected
these attempts to open negotiations, partly because there was no point
in negotiating peace when you're on the verge of victory (kind of like a
sports team down XXX to 0 in the last minute, offering a tie) and partly
because of commitments to the other Allies.



Amazingly, these were identical to the terms which were accepted by
our government for the surrender of Japan seven months later.

That is simply not true. The terms offered by the U.S. later in 1945
were rejected because we demanded that they give up the Emperor. Dozens
of historians, notably Shirer, have covered this point.


Makes you think that the lives of all those, Japanese and Allies were
sacrificed because the bomb needed to be completed and tested.


There was some motivation toward that by the military industrialists,
but I don't think it was the over riding factor at all. For one thing,
Truman became Vice President and then President because he had uncovered
the Manhatten Project in his Senate investigation of Army finances, and
he never considered *not* dropping the bomb.

Maxprop wrote:
Nice piece of revisionist history, Oz, but it won't fly.

On July 26, 1945 (it was 7/27 am in Tokyo) the Potsdam Proclaim was
broadcast in Japanese, demanding unconditional surrender.

I don't think the entire proclamation was broadcast, but that's a
quibble. More to the point, how good a translation do you think it was?
Possibly a bit like those garbled instruction manuals, hmm?


... The Japanese
rejected it, complaining that no provision had been made to insure the
protection of Emperor Hirohito, whom they believed to be a god.

Hmmph. You really swallow the whole package, don't you Max? The Japanese
revered the Emperor, in the same way that many in the U.S. revere
President Bush. However nobody seriously thought he was a god. Bear in
mind also that the military junta in charge of Japan used reverence for
the Emperor as a political tool, and juiced it all they could.

In short, lots of error and wishful thinking on both sides. No decision,
next inning please.

DSK

Max,

I do believe our friend has to be reminded that the recovery of EUROPE
was master-minded by Marshall & Truman. Also, He needs the look at the
recovery of Japan today. Done without the belief of the Emperor being a
God

Ole Thom


http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomsHomePage

It is still bull ****.

Scotty


OzOne wrote in message
...
On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 07:20:12 -0500, "Scott Vernon"
scribbled thusly:


OzOne wrote

Yep, haven't you instituted a register and strict controls on the
purchase of fertilizer?


that's bull ****!

It was a question!
But I found the answer,
http://tinyurl.com/4rbjo

"Only two states - South Carolina and Nevada - require ID and track
purchases of ammonium nitrate.

In the rest of the country, a voluntary fertilizer industry safety
program warns sellers to beware of a customer who "avoids eye
contact"
or "doesn't know much about farming." Mixell said the ATF helped
develop the program. "

You're welcome!


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

Oz,

When the AXIS powers were winning the war they started, it was decided
that they would be beaten to a Unconditional Surrender. This was
approved by a mass majority of the people living under Allied Nations.
That meant NO TERMS!! That is what they got. They got to feel the HORROR
they dealt out to others. They deserved to feel the Bombing, the
occupation, the despair of defeat they had done to other. It was
decide;- NO DEALS! That is what they got.

Germany, Italy and Japan were taught the full weight of DEFEAT that
they deserved

Ole Thom


http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomsHomePage

Doug,

An awful lot I don't agree it but I certainly disagree about not
believing the emperor a God. They believed it. He was a God on a White
Horse. He had to issue a written statement to his people that he wasn't
a God.

Sorry Buddy, You're way off on that one

Ole Thom


http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomsHomePage

http://community.webtv.net/tassail/NutsysTelescopic

Thom Stewart wrote:
Doug,

An awful lot I don't agree it but I certainly disagree about not
believing the emperor a God. They believed it. He was a God on a White
Horse. He had to issue a written statement to his people that he wasn't
a God.

Sorry Buddy, You're way off on that one


Why are you so eager to believe that other people are stupid?

Would *you* believe the Emperor is a god?

The Japanese nation is (and was at the time) one of the best educated
people on the planet. They didn't build some of the most advanced
weapons of the time (and build all sorts of high tech gizmos since) by
believing in a lot of superstitious clap-trap.

Sorry buddy, I'm not off at all on this one. Think about it.

DSK

"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
Oz,


Germany, Italy and Japan were taught the full weight of DEFEAT that
they deserved

Ole Thom


http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomsHomePage


Problem with "collective guilt" is that it lets the real perpetrators hide
behind their country, and it allows for the indiscriminate slaughter of
civilians. Think 9-11.

John Cairns

OzOne wrote

Yep, did those hundreds of thousands of people whose Govt had taken
them to war desrve to be incinerated, and suffer the effects of
radiation even today?


Did we deserve Pearl Harbor?

Look at it this way Ozzy, the bomb saved a lot of Aussies, and USA got
the blame.