Neal, you're just making an ass of yourself. But what else is new?

You've actually claimed that you're not bound by all of the rules, you
feel free to pick and choose which you want to follow. In your words:

"I'll make the choice of which rules
I will follow and since I sail, I will follow the sailing rules which
make Rule 13 unnecessary and superfluous. I will not be put in a
position to be liable for a poor set of rules that contradict each other
by embracing the contradictions."

Lest anyone thing that Neal might be correct, here's what the
acknowledged standard reference has to to say:

"It should be noted that International Rule 13 ... takes precedence over
all other rules in Part B, Section II, ... Therefore sailing vessels and
all other vessels given priority in Rule 18, even those hampered in some
way..., must consider themselves bound by Rule 13 and keep out of the
way of a vessel they are overtaking." Falwell's Rules of the Nautical Road.

Sad, Neal, sad. You probably even have the delusion that people believe
that you really have a license.




Capt. Neal® wrote:
You just don't understand how stupid and impossible your stance
is, do you?

It is not possible to follow all the Rules all the time. One must
decide which Rules apply to one's vessel and when they apply.
Once one does this one must ignore all the others that do not apply
or contradict.

To maintain that all Rules apply all the time is one of the most asinine
things I've ever heard. You've got a serious problem.

CN


"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...

Sorry Neal, all of the rules must be followed. Obviously, some imply
no action for some boats, but they all must be considered. You've
claimed that Rule 13 shouldn't even be considered because Rule 12
sometimes might be used. What other Rules need not be considered?
Rule 1? Rule 2? Are lookouts needed in your world?

You're claiming that a sailboat should ignore the rules for RAMs and
NUCs. Tell us Neal, just what rules are those? In fact, just about
the only rule that applies to NUCs and RAMs is Rule 13. The only rule
that mentions them by name says the sailboats must stay clear of them.

And what if a sailboat is also a NUC? Do we ignore Rule 18 because
Neal claims Rule 12 covers "all eventualities"? Nonsense!

One of the fundamental principles of marine law is that the rules are
mandatory. As Farwell puts it: "It will be recognized that a
disregard of any rule on the basis of convenience, courtesy, good
nature, or disbelief in its efficacy places the navigator under a
burden of proof that is almost impossible for him to carry."



Capt. Neal® wrote:



Most of these putzes are too confused by now to know of which they
speak.

Jeff is the worst. He makes the ludicrous statement that boats must
follow
ALL the rules.
Let's see now, Jeff thinks he has to follow the rules for a sailboat,
a fishing boat,
a Not Under Command boat, a boat aground, a boat in a fog, a boat
Restricted
in its Ability to Navigate and he has to follow all these rules at
the same time.

How warped is that kind of thinking, anyway?

The fact is, one follows the rules that concern certain boats in
certain circumstances.

Rule 12 deals with how two sailboats interact. Rule 12 covers all
eventualities. One
need not concern oneself with ALL the rules in order to operate
legally. This includes
Rule 13 because it does not apply just like Rule 9 does not apply in
open water.

CN




"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...

Neal,

I'm beginning to wonder about this group a little myself on this one.
There are enough racing people that must know "LUFFING RIGHTS" and the
rest should have seen it used in the America's Cup Races on Downwind
Legs.

I didn't think you were that tricky in your wording, but I guess you
were.

Ole Thom

Again, you miss the point. One is only bound by Rule 13 if one is in an
overtaking situation. This is the only situation where Rule 13 applies.

When two sailing vessels are following Rule 12, overtaking situations
do not occur because if the two vessels follow Rule 12 and avoid a
close quarters situation there is never any need to overtake. Any passing
can and should be done a distance. Mind you, the two vessels I am
talking about are sailing in open water. I think you, being a lubber,
are always thinking narrow channels, etc. where Rule 13 can and does
apply.

The reason Rule 13 does not apply between two sailing vessels in open
water is because if the two sailing vessels are following the dictates
of Rule 12 (and other applicable rules depending on the situation) Rule
13 does not come into play.

For example, I am sailing my fast, blue water, Coronado 27 of the starboard
tack, close-hauled. I am approaching another vessel such as a C&C 32 which
is a very slow boat, also sailing close-hauled on the starboard tack.

Rule 12 tells me that the C&C is the stand-on vessel because he is to weather.

Therefore, I follow Rule 12 and fall off and pass him at over a half mile of
distance. This does not meet the definition of overtaking in any way shape
or form. By adhering to the sailing rules, I avoid "overtaking" the C&C but
I still end up ahead of him. I am still downwind of him so he is still the
stand-on vessel. By virtue of the fact that I followed the dictates of Rule
12, Rule 13 was superfluous.

Try to understand these simple truths.

CN


"Jeff Morris" wrote in message ...
Neal, you're just making an ass of yourself. But what else is new?

You've actually claimed that you're not bound by all of the rules, you
feel free to pick and choose which you want to follow. In your words:

"I'll make the choice of which rules
I will follow and since I sail, I will follow the sailing rules which
make Rule 13 unnecessary and superfluous. I will not be put in a
position to be liable for a poor set of rules that contradict each other
by embracing the contradictions."

Lest anyone thing that Neal might be correct, here's what the acknowledged standard reference has to to say:

"It should be noted that International Rule 13 ... takes precedence over all other rules in Part B, Section II, ... Therefore
sailing vessels and all other vessels given priority in Rule 18, even those hampered in some way..., must consider themselves
bound by Rule 13 and keep out of the way of a vessel they are overtaking." Falwell's Rules of the Nautical Road.

Sad, Neal, sad. You probably even have the delusion that people believe that you really have a license.




Capt. Neal® wrote:
You just don't understand how stupid and impossible your stance
is, do you?

It is not possible to follow all the Rules all the time. One must
decide which Rules apply to one's vessel and when they apply.
Once one does this one must ignore all the others that do not apply
or contradict.

To maintain that all Rules apply all the time is one of the most asinine
things I've ever heard. You've got a serious problem.

CN


"Jeff Morris" wrote in message ...

Sorry Neal, all of the rules must be followed. Obviously, some imply no action for some boats, but they all must be considered.
You've claimed that Rule 13 shouldn't even be considered because Rule 12 sometimes might be used. What other Rules need not be
considered? Rule 1? Rule 2? Are lookouts needed in your world?

You're claiming that a sailboat should ignore the rules for RAMs and NUCs. Tell us Neal, just what rules are those? In fact,
just about the only rule that applies to NUCs and RAMs is Rule 13. The only rule that mentions them by name says the sailboats
must stay clear of them.

And what if a sailboat is also a NUC? Do we ignore Rule 18 because Neal claims Rule 12 covers "all eventualities"? Nonsense!

One of the fundamental principles of marine law is that the rules are mandatory. As Farwell puts it: "It will be recognized
that a disregard of any rule on the basis of convenience, courtesy, good nature, or disbelief in its efficacy places the
navigator under a burden of proof that is almost impossible for him to carry."



Capt. Neal® wrote:



Most of these putzes are too confused by now to know of which they speak.

Jeff is the worst. He makes the ludicrous statement that boats must follow
ALL the rules.
Let's see now, Jeff thinks he has to follow the rules for a sailboat, a fishing boat,
a Not Under Command boat, a boat aground, a boat in a fog, a boat Restricted
in its Ability to Navigate and he has to follow all these rules at the same time.

How warped is that kind of thinking, anyway?

The fact is, one follows the rules that concern certain boats in certain circumstances.

Rule 12 deals with how two sailboats interact. Rule 12 covers all eventualities. One
need not concern oneself with ALL the rules in order to operate legally. This includes
Rule 13 because it does not apply just like Rule 9 does not apply in open water.

CN




"Thom Stewart" wrote in message ...

Neal,

I'm beginning to wonder about this group a little myself on this one.
There are enough racing people that must know "LUFFING RIGHTS" and the
rest should have seen it used in the America's Cup Races on Downwind
Legs.

I didn't think you were that tricky in your wording, but I guess you
were.

Ole Thom

"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message

Rule 12 tells me that the C&C is the stand-on vessel because he is to
weather. ...
... I am still downwind of him so he is still the
stand-on vessel. By virtue of the fact that I followed the dictates
of Rule 12, ...

....which states...

Rule 12
Sailing Vessels
(a) when two sailing vessels are approaching one another, so as to involve
risk of collision, one of them shall keep out of the way of the other as
follows:
b.. (ii) When both have the wind on the same side, the vessel which is to
windward shall keep out of the way of the vessel which is to leeward;


Try to understand these simple truths.

Bwahahahahaha!!

Wally wrote in message
...
"Edgar" wrote in message news:C_7Ld.6675

I find it hard to believe some of the posts in this thread, especially
when
one poster admits he does not know what is in the colregs!

Get a clue, dummy - I said I didn't know what the colregs had for defining
'overtaking'.

No you did not, and I quote from your post on 30/01/ 05 "I don't know what
it says in the Colregs..."
You then go on to talk about overlaps in racing. Get a clue.




In a non-racing
situation why should anyone seriously suggest that a boat which is being
overtaken by another should 'tack away'?

Get another clue, dummy - I was referring to the overtakING boat. If he's
upwind and can't point any higher, he can tack away to avoid a collision.


That is nonsense. Why should an overtakING boat tack right away from his
desired course when he can ease sheets, pick up speed and pass clear to
leeward of the overtaken boat? Think about it. Go or a sail sometime. Be
careful out there...

"Edgar" wrote in message news:3vxLd.6799

Get a clue, dummy - I said I didn't know what the colregs had for
defining
'overtaking'.

No you did not, and I quote from your post on 30/01/ 05 "I don't know
what
it says in the Colregs..."
You then go on to talk about overlaps in racing. Get a clue.

Selective, decontextualised bull****. You're grasping at straws already.


Get another clue, dummy - I was referring to the overtakING boat. If
he's
upwind and can't point any higher, he can tack away to avoid a
collision.

That is nonsense. Why should an overtakING boat tack right away from his
desired course when he can ease sheets, pick up speed and pass clear to
leeward of the overtaken boat? Think about it. Go or a sail sometime.
Be
careful out there...

Where did I say that tacking away was his only choice?

So what? In my haste I SWITCHED the stand-on and give-way vessels.

The point is that, if sailing vessels adhere to Rule 12, Rule 13 is superfluous
because an overtaking situation is avoided.

Try arguing the point. You will find it more difficult than laughing at mistakes.

CN

"Wally" wrote in message ...
"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message

Rule 12 tells me that the C&C is the stand-on vessel because he is to
weather. ...
... I am still downwind of him so he is still the
stand-on vessel. By virtue of the fact that I followed the dictates
of Rule 12, ...

...which states...

Rule 12
Sailing Vessels
(a) when two sailing vessels are approaching one another, so as to involve
risk of collision, one of them shall keep out of the way of the other as
follows:
b.. (ii) When both have the wind on the same side, the vessel which is to
windward shall keep out of the way of the vessel which is to leeward;


Try to understand these simple truths.

Bwahahahahaha!!

"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message

The point is that, if sailing vessels adhere to Rule 12, Rule 13 is
superfluous
because an overtaking situation is avoided.

Try arguing the point. You will find it more difficult than laughing at
mistakes.

So, your contention now is that Rule 12's negation of Rule 13 is only
applicable in open water. Do the colregs only apply in open water?

International Rules apply on open water.
Inland Rules apply on inland water.

Rule 12 makes Rule 13 superfluous in any case where
there is enough water to make overtaking unnecessary
because there is plenty of space to avoid being close
enough to have to overtake and pass at close quarters.

This is extremely logical and evident. I fail to see why
people can't seem to get it.

CN

"Wally" wrote in message k...
"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message

The point is that, if sailing vessels adhere to Rule 12, Rule 13 is
superfluous
because an overtaking situation is avoided.

Try arguing the point. You will find it more difficult than laughing at
mistakes.

So, your contention now is that Rule 12's negation of Rule 13 is only
applicable in open water. Do the colregs only apply in open water?

"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message

International Rules apply on open water.
Inland Rules apply on inland water.

Are you saying that the only water that isn't inland water is open water? Is
an estuary inland water? Which rules apply to the Firth Of Forth in
Scotland?


Rule 12 makes Rule 13 superfluous in any case where
there is enough water to make overtaking unnecessary
because there is plenty of space to avoid being close
enough to have to overtake and pass at close quarters.

Rubbsh. Rubbish of the highest order. The colregs apply in situations where
close quarters can occur - during a sailboat race, for example. You're
basically saying that you're terrified of getting within half a mile of
another sailboat, either in case there's a collision, or because you are
incapable of applying Rule 13.

"Wally" wrote in message news
"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message

International Rules apply on open water.
Inland Rules apply on inland water.

Are you saying that the only water that isn't inland water is open water? Is
an estuary inland water? Which rules apply to the Firth Of Forth in
Scotland?

Rule 1
Application
(a) These Rules shall apply to all vessels upon the high seas and in all waters connected therewith navigable by seagoing vessels.

I would guess the Firth of Forth is covered under the International Rules but I would have to
see a chart and the demarcation line to know for sure.


Rule 12 makes Rule 13 superfluous in any case where
there is enough water to make overtaking unnecessary
because there is plenty of space to avoid being close
enough to have to overtake and pass at close quarters.

Rubbsh. Rubbish of the highest order. The colregs apply in situations where
close quarters can occur - during a sailboat race, for example. You're
basically saying that you're terrified of getting within half a mile of
another sailboat, either in case there's a collision, or because you are
incapable of applying Rule 13.


Negative, I am saying, in the circumstance where I am sailing out in International
Rule waters, like crossing the Gulf Stream, it is unnecessary and dangerous to
pass close to other vessels. A small course correction, done early and in accordance
to sailing rule 12, makes Rule 13 superfluous.

Why is that so hard to understand?


CN