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#1
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Rule 12 - Sailing Rule
Rule 11
Rules in this section apply to vessels in sight of one another. Rule 12 (a) When two sailing vessels are approaching one another, so as to involve risk of collision, one of them shall keep out of the way of the other as follows: when each has the wind on a different side, the vessel which has the wind on the port side shall keep out of the way of the other; when both have the wind on the same side, the vessel which is to windward shall keep out of the way of the vessel which is to leeward; if a vessel with the wind on the port side sees a vessel to windward and cannot determine with certainty whether the other vessel has the wind on the port or on the starboard side, she shall keep out of the way of the other. (b) For the purposes of this Rule the windward side shall be deemed to be the side opposite that on which the mainsail is carried or, in the case of a square-rigged vessel, the side opposite to that on which the largest fore-and-aft sail is carried. Pretty simple, isn't it? Most interesting to me is this part: "when both have the wind on the same side, the vessel which is to windward shall keep out of the way of the vessel which is to leeward;" This says if one sailboat is overtaking another and both have the wind on the same side, then the sailboat to weather is the give way vessel. This tells me that the overtaking rule where the overtaken vessel is always the stand-on vessel does not apply to sailboats. CN |
#2
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Capt. Neal® wrote:
.... Most interesting to me is this part: "when both have the wind on the same side, the vessel which is to windward shall keep out of the way of the vessel which is to leeward;" This says if one sailboat is overtaking another and both have the wind on the same side, then the sailboat to weather is the give way vessel. This tells me that the overtaking rule where the overtaken vessel is always the stand-on vessel does not apply to sailboats. Why didn't you continue with the beginning of Rule 13: (a) Notwithstanding anything contained in the Rules of Part B, Sections I and II, any vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken. What part of "Notwithstanding anything contained" do you interpret as meaning Rule 12 takes priority over Rule 13? How do you expect anyone to believe that you passed the Master's exam, when you seem confused by this simple point? |
#3
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OzOne wrote in message ... On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 12:26:50 -0500, Capt. Neal® scribbled thusly: Rule 11 Rules in this section apply to vessels in sight of one another. Rule 12 (a) When two sailing vessels are approaching one another, so as to involve risk of collision, one of them shall keep out of the way of the other as follows: when each has the wind on a different side, the vessel which has the wind on the port side shall keep out of the way of the other; when both have the wind on the same side, the vessel which is to windward shall keep out of the way of the vessel which is to leeward; if a vessel with the wind on the port side sees a vessel to windward and cannot determine with certainty whether the other vessel has the wind on the port or on the starboard side, she shall keep out of the way of the other. (b) For the purposes of this Rule the windward side shall be deemed to be the side opposite that on which the mainsail is carried or, in the case of a square-rigged vessel, the side opposite to that on which the largest fore-and-aft sail is carried. Pretty simple, isn't it? Most interesting to me is this part: "when both have the wind on the same side, the vessel which is to windward shall keep out of the way of the vessel which is to leeward;" This says if one sailboat is overtaking another and both have the wind on the same side, then the sailboat to weather is the give way vessel. This tells me that the overtaking rule where the overtaken vessel is always the stand-on vessel does not apply to sailboats. CN Please indicate where anything is mentioned about overtaking? Rule 12 (a) When two sailing vessels are approaching one another. . . Does that statement not include overtaking? CN |
#4
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"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
(a) When two sailing vessels are approaching one another. . . Does that statement not include overtaking? One sailing vessel could be said to be approaching the other, but not the other way round - they're both heading in the same direction, and the notion of 'approach' rests in one travelling faster than the other. |
#5
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Tut tut! approaching one another means 'to move nearer to.' It cannot be denied that the two vessels are moving nearer to one another when they are approaching one another. Relative speeds of the vessels does not matter. CN "Wally" wrote in message k... "Capt. Neal®" wrote in message (a) When two sailing vessels are approaching one another. . . Does that statement not include overtaking? One sailing vessel could be said to be approaching the other, but not the other way round - they're both heading in the same direction, and the notion of 'approach' rests in one travelling faster than the other. |
#6
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"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
Tut tut! approaching one another means 'to move nearer to.' It cannot be denied that the two vessels are moving nearer to one another when they are approaching one another. Relative speeds of the vessels does not matter. If you are trying to run away from a gun nut who's running faster than you, it cannot be said that you are 'approaching' him. |
#7
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"Jeff Morris" wrote in message ... Capt. Neal® wrote: ... Most interesting to me is this part: "when both have the wind on the same side, the vessel which is to windward shall keep out of the way of the vessel which is to leeward;" This says if one sailboat is overtaking another and both have the wind on the same side, then the sailboat to weather is the give way vessel. This tells me that the overtaking rule where the overtaken vessel is always the stand-on vessel does not apply to sailboats. Why didn't you continue with the beginning of Rule 13: (a) Notwithstanding anything contained in the Rules of Part B, Sections I and II, any vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken. What part of "Notwithstanding anything contained" do you interpret as meaning Rule 12 takes priority over Rule 13? How do you expect anyone to believe that you passed the Master's exam, when you seem confused by this simple point? Good point but it is physically impossible for a sailboat to windward to stay out of the way of another to leeward if the leeward vessel is more weatherly. The windward vessel cannot point higher to avoid the leeward vessel. He cannot fall off without creating a close quarters situation, and he cannot speed up or slow down because those things depend on the speed of the wind. These facts alone negate rule 13 which works well for motor vessels but not for sailing vessels. It is plain to me if one follows the sailing rules then rule 13 is superfluous. Prove me wrong. Give me one situation where the sailing rules don't cover all eventualities even those in all overtaking situations. CN |
#8
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"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
Good point but it is physically impossible for a sailboat to windward to stay out of the way of another to leeward if the leeward vessel is more weatherly. The windward vessel cannot point higher to avoid the leeward vessel. He cannot fall off without creating a close quarters situation, and he cannot speed up or slow down because those things depend on the speed of the wind. These facts alone negate rule 13 which works well for motor vessels but not for sailing vessels. It is plain to me if one follows the sailing rules then rule 13 is superfluous. The vessel to windward is not neccessarily close-hauled, it's merely the vessel which is upwind of the other. The reason he is the give-way vessel is because he has a better chance of maintaining full control because the downwind boat may be in his wind shadow - the downwind boat may not be able to maneuvre out of trouble. Even if the windward boat was close-hauled, he can always tack away if he can't point higher to avoid the stand-on vessel. If you'd ever been racing, you'd see this happen a dozen or more times in every race. |
#9
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"Wally" wrote in message ... "Capt. Neal®" wrote in message Good point but it is physically impossible for a sailboat to windward to stay out of the way of another to leeward if the leeward vessel is more weatherly. The windward vessel cannot point higher to avoid the leeward vessel. He cannot fall off without creating a close quarters situation, and he cannot speed up or slow down because those things depend on the speed of the wind. These facts alone negate rule 13 which works well for motor vessels but not for sailing vessels. It is plain to me if one follows the sailing rules then rule 13 is superfluous. The vessel to windward is not neccessarily close-hauled, it's merely the vessel which is upwind of the other. The reason he is the give-way vessel is because he has a better chance of maintaining full control because the downwind boat may be in his wind shadow - the downwind boat may not be able to maneuvre out of trouble. I disagree with you. I say the reason the windward vessel in an overtaking situation is the give way vessel is precisely because he has more options. He has more options up until the time the overtaking vessel is abreast of him, that is. Therefore it's incumbent on the windward vessel to take action to avoid a close quarters situation. This all begs the question of at what point does an overtaking situation actually start? Where does the sailing rule end and the overtaking rule take over. I say it never does unless the windward vessel fails to follow the sailing rules and creates a close quarters situation. The entire point is rule 13 is superfluous if the sailing rules are followed. CN |
#10
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Capt. Neal® wrote:
"Jeff Morris" wrote in message ... Capt. Neal® wrote: ... Most interesting to me is this part: "when both have the wind on the same side, the vessel which is to windward shall keep out of the way of the vessel which is to leeward;" This says if one sailboat is overtaking another and both have the wind on the same side, then the sailboat to weather is the give way vessel. This tells me that the overtaking rule where the overtaken vessel is always the stand-on vessel does not apply to sailboats. Why didn't you continue with the beginning of Rule 13: (a) Notwithstanding anything contained in the Rules of Part B, Sections I and II, any vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken. What part of "Notwithstanding anything contained" do you interpret as meaning Rule 12 takes priority over Rule 13? How do you expect anyone to believe that you passed the Master's exam, when you seem confused by this simple point? Good point but it is physically impossible for a sailboat to windward to stay out of the way of another to leeward if the leeward vessel is more weatherly. Nonsense. He's approaching from behind. All you're saying is that if you ignore Rule 13 until its too late, then you might have to take some extreme action. Long before the windward vessel is "trapped" he could have borne off and passed to leeward. Or he could have tacked away. The windward vessel cannot point higher to avoid the leeward vessel. Why can't he tack? He cannot fall off without creating a close quarters situation, Why can't he pass to leeward? and he cannot speed up or slow down because those things depend on the speed of the wind. Why can't he let go of the sheets? These facts alone negate rule 13 which works well for motor vessels but not for sailing vessels. It is plain to me if one follows the sailing rules then rule 13 is superfluous. Its becoming clear you don't actually know how to sail. Is this why you didn't bother to get your sailing endorsement, even though it only involved answering a few easy questions? Prove me wrong. Give me one situation where the sailing rules don't cover all eventualities even those in all overtaking situations. This is a meaningless comment. You're only saying that an alternate version of the sailing rules could have been invented - one that doesn't include the overtaking rule. For example, the yacht racing rules handle overtaking quite differently. However, they are not the issue here. The Colregs are quite clear the Rule 13 takes priority, and it is the responsibility of the overtaking vessel to avoid getting so close that it can't keep clear of the overtaken vessel. |
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