Rule 11
Rules in this section apply to vessels in sight of one another.

Rule 12
(a) When two sailing vessels are approaching one another,
so as to involve risk of collision, one of them shall keep out of
the way of the other as follows:

when each has the wind on a different side, the vessel which has
the wind on the port side shall keep out of the way of the other;

when both have the wind on the same side, the vessel which is to
windward shall keep out of the way of the vessel which is to leeward;

if a vessel with the wind on the port side sees a vessel to windward
and cannot determine with certainty whether the other vessel has the
wind on the port or on the starboard side, she shall keep out of the
way of the other.

(b) For the purposes of this Rule the windward side shall be deemed
to be the side opposite that on which the mainsail is carried or, in the
case of a square-rigged vessel, the side opposite to that on which the
largest fore-and-aft sail is carried.

Pretty simple, isn't it?

Most interesting to me is this part:

"when both have the wind on the same side, the vessel which is to
windward shall keep out of the way of the vessel which is to leeward;"

This says if one sailboat is overtaking another and both have the wind
on the same side, then the sailboat to weather is the give way vessel.

This tells me that the overtaking rule where the overtaken vessel is always
the stand-on vessel does not apply to sailboats.

CN

Capt. Neal® wrote:
....

Most interesting to me is this part:

"when both have the wind on the same side, the vessel which is to
windward shall keep out of the way of the vessel which is to leeward;"

This says if one sailboat is overtaking another and both have the wind
on the same side, then the sailboat to weather is the give way vessel.

This tells me that the overtaking rule where the overtaken vessel is always
the stand-on vessel does not apply to sailboats.


Why didn't you continue with the beginning of Rule 13:

(a) Notwithstanding anything contained in the Rules of Part B,
Sections I and II, any vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of
the way of the vessel being overtaken.

What part of "Notwithstanding anything contained" do you interpret as
meaning Rule 12 takes priority over Rule 13?

How do you expect anyone to believe that you passed the Master's exam,
when you seem confused by this simple point?

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message ...
Capt. Neal® wrote:
...

Most interesting to me is this part:

"when both have the wind on the same side, the vessel which is to windward shall keep out of the way of the vessel which is to
leeward;"

This says if one sailboat is overtaking another and both have the wind
on the same side, then the sailboat to weather is the give way vessel.

This tells me that the overtaking rule where the overtaken vessel is always
the stand-on vessel does not apply to sailboats.


Why didn't you continue with the beginning of Rule 13:

(a) Notwithstanding anything contained in the Rules of Part B,
Sections I and II, any vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of
the way of the vessel being overtaken.

What part of "Notwithstanding anything contained" do you interpret as meaning Rule 12 takes priority over Rule 13?

How do you expect anyone to believe that you passed the Master's exam, when you seem confused by this simple point?

Good point but it is physically impossible for a sailboat to windward to
stay out of the way of another to leeward if the leeward vessel is more
weatherly. The windward vessel cannot point higher to avoid the
leeward vessel. He cannot fall off without creating a close quarters
situation, and he cannot speed up or slow down because those things
depend on the speed of the wind. These facts alone negate rule 13
which works well for motor vessels but not for sailing vessels. It is plain
to me if one follows the sailing rules then rule 13 is superfluous.

Prove me wrong. Give me one situation where the sailing rules don't
cover all eventualities even those in all overtaking situations.

CN

"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message

Good point but it is physically impossible for a sailboat to windward to
stay out of the way of another to leeward if the leeward vessel is more
weatherly. The windward vessel cannot point higher to avoid the
leeward vessel. He cannot fall off without creating a close quarters
situation, and he cannot speed up or slow down because those things
depend on the speed of the wind. These facts alone negate rule 13
which works well for motor vessels but not for sailing vessels. It is
plain
to me if one follows the sailing rules then rule 13 is superfluous.

The vessel to windward is not neccessarily close-hauled, it's merely the
vessel which is upwind of the other. The reason he is the give-way vessel is
because he has a better chance of maintaining full control because the
downwind boat may be in his wind shadow - the downwind boat may not be able
to maneuvre out of trouble.

Even if the windward boat was close-hauled, he can always tack away if he
can't point higher to avoid the stand-on vessel. If you'd ever been racing,
you'd see this happen a dozen or more times in every race.

"Wally" wrote in message ...
"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message

Good point but it is physically impossible for a sailboat to windward to
stay out of the way of another to leeward if the leeward vessel is more
weatherly. The windward vessel cannot point higher to avoid the
leeward vessel. He cannot fall off without creating a close quarters
situation, and he cannot speed up or slow down because those things
depend on the speed of the wind. These facts alone negate rule 13
which works well for motor vessels but not for sailing vessels. It is
plain
to me if one follows the sailing rules then rule 13 is superfluous.

The vessel to windward is not neccessarily close-hauled, it's merely the
vessel which is upwind of the other. The reason he is the give-way vessel is
because he has a better chance of maintaining full control because the
downwind boat may be in his wind shadow - the downwind boat may not be able
to maneuvre out of trouble.

I disagree with you. I say the reason the windward vessel in an overtaking
situation is the give way vessel is precisely because he has more options.

He has more options up until the time the overtaking vessel is abreast of him,
that is. Therefore it's incumbent on the windward vessel to take action to
avoid a close quarters situation.

This all begs the question of at what point does an overtaking situation
actually start? Where does the sailing rule end and the overtaking rule
take over. I say it never does unless the windward vessel fails to follow
the sailing rules and creates a close quarters situation. The entire point
is rule 13 is superfluous if the sailing rules are followed.

CN

"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message

This all begs the question of at what point does an overtaking situation
actually start? Where does the sailing rule end and the overtaking rule
take over. I say it never does unless the windward vessel fails to follow
the sailing rules and creates a close quarters situation.

Ah, I see what you're saying - the leeward boat could be overtaking, at
which point he becomes the give-way, rather than the stand-on vessel. I
don't know what it says in the colregs, but the RRS has stuff about overlaps
which could be used to define precisely when the overtaking maneuvre is
happening.

Capt. Neal® wrote:

"Wally" wrote in message
...

"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message

Good point but it is physically impossible for a sailboat to windward to
stay out of the way of another to leeward if the leeward vessel is more
weatherly. The windward vessel cannot point higher to avoid the
leeward vessel. He cannot fall off without creating a close quarters
situation, and he cannot speed up or slow down because those things
depend on the speed of the wind. These facts alone negate rule 13
which works well for motor vessels but not for sailing vessels. It is

plain

to me if one follows the sailing rules then rule 13 is superfluous.


The vessel to windward is not neccessarily close-hauled, it's merely the
vessel which is upwind of the other. The reason he is the give-way
vessel is
because he has a better chance of maintaining full control because the
downwind boat may be in his wind shadow - the downwind boat may not be
able
to maneuvre out of trouble.


I disagree with you. I say the reason the windward vessel in an overtaking
situation is the give way vessel is precisely because he has more options.


Total nonsense. There are many cases where the rule are arbitrary. You
can't change them because you think they make more sense another way!


He has more options up until the time the overtaking vessel is abreast
of him,
that is. Therefore it's incumbent on the windward vessel to take action to
avoid a close quarters situation.

Once again, demonstrating why its obvious you never passed the test!


This all begs the question of at what point does an overtaking situation
actually start? Where does the sailing rule end and the overtaking rule
take over.

The sailing rule doesn't take affect at all. The windward/leeward rule
doesn't apply if one of the vessels is overtaking. You might be able to
create an ambiguous condition where two vessels are converging and it
isn't clear if the windward vessel is overtaking, but Rule 13 resolves
that with:

(c) When a vessel is in any doubt as to whether she if overtaking
another, she shall assume that this is the case and act accordingly.

I say it never does unless the windward vessel fails to follow
the sailing rules and creates a close quarters situation. The entire point
is rule 13 is superfluous if the sailing rules are followed.

That's why you never could have passed the test!

"Wally" wrote in message
...

Even if the windward boat was close-hauled, he can always tack away if he
can't point higher to avoid the stand-on vessel. If you'd ever been
racing,
you'd see this happen a dozen or more times in every race.

Ah, but Neal isn't a racer, and he has stated on many occasions that racers
aren't real sailors. He'd brown his bermudas if he ever had to maneuver in
close quarters with other boats at a start line.

John Cairns

Capt. Neal® wrote:

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...

Capt. Neal® wrote:
...


Most interesting to me is this part:

"when both have the wind on the same side, the vessel which is to
windward shall keep out of the way of the vessel which is to leeward;"

This says if one sailboat is overtaking another and both have the wind
on the same side, then the sailboat to weather is the give way vessel.

This tells me that the overtaking rule where the overtaken vessel is
always
the stand-on vessel does not apply to sailboats.


Why didn't you continue with the beginning of Rule 13:

(a) Notwithstanding anything contained in the Rules of Part B,
Sections I and II, any vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of
the way of the vessel being overtaken.

What part of "Notwithstanding anything contained" do you interpret as
meaning Rule 12 takes priority over Rule 13?

How do you expect anyone to believe that you passed the Master's exam,
when you seem confused by this simple point?


Good point but it is physically impossible for a sailboat to windward to
stay out of the way of another to leeward if the leeward vessel is more
weatherly.

Nonsense. He's approaching from behind. All you're saying is that if
you ignore Rule 13 until its too late, then you might have to take some
extreme action. Long before the windward vessel is "trapped" he could
have borne off and passed to leeward. Or he could have tacked away.

The windward vessel cannot point higher to avoid the
leeward vessel.

Why can't he tack?

He cannot fall off without creating a close quarters
situation,

Why can't he pass to leeward?

and he cannot speed up or slow down because those things
depend on the speed of the wind.

Why can't he let go of the sheets?

These facts alone negate rule 13
which works well for motor vessels but not for sailing vessels. It is plain
to me if one follows the sailing rules then rule 13 is superfluous.

Its becoming clear you don't actually know how to sail. Is this why you
didn't bother to get your sailing endorsement, even though it only
involved answering a few easy questions?


Prove me wrong. Give me one situation where the sailing rules don't
cover all eventualities even those in all overtaking situations.

This is a meaningless comment. You're only saying that an alternate
version of the sailing rules could have been invented - one that doesn't
include the overtaking rule. For example, the yacht racing rules handle
overtaking quite differently. However, they are not the issue here.
The Colregs are quite clear the Rule 13 takes priority, and it is the
responsibility of the overtaking vessel to avoid getting so close that
it can't keep clear of the overtaken vessel.

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message ...
Capt. Neal® wrote:

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message ...

Capt. Neal® wrote:
...


Most interesting to me is this part:

"when both have the wind on the same side, the vessel which is to windward shall keep out of the way of the vessel which is to
leeward;"

This says if one sailboat is overtaking another and both have the wind
on the same side, then the sailboat to weather is the give way vessel.

This tells me that the overtaking rule where the overtaken vessel is always
the stand-on vessel does not apply to sailboats.


Why didn't you continue with the beginning of Rule 13:

(a) Notwithstanding anything contained in the Rules of Part B,
Sections I and II, any vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of
the way of the vessel being overtaken.

What part of "Notwithstanding anything contained" do you interpret as meaning Rule 12 takes priority over Rule 13?

How do you expect anyone to believe that you passed the Master's exam, when you seem confused by this simple point?


Good point but it is physically impossible for a sailboat to windward to
stay out of the way of another to leeward if the leeward vessel is more
weatherly.

Nonsense. He's approaching from behind. All you're saying is that if you ignore Rule 13 until its too late, then you might have
to take some extreme action. Long before the windward vessel is "trapped" he could have borne off and passed to leeward. Or he
could have tacked away.

The windward vessel cannot point higher to avoid the
leeward vessel.

Why can't he tack?

He cannot fall off without creating a close quarters
situation,

Why can't he pass to leeward?

and he cannot speed up or slow down because those things
depend on the speed of the wind.

Why can't he let go of the sheets?

These facts alone negate rule 13
which works well for motor vessels but not for sailing vessels. It is plain
to me if one follows the sailing rules then rule 13 is superfluous.

Its becoming clear you don't actually know how to sail. Is this why you didn't bother to get your sailing endorsement, even
though it only involved answering a few easy questions?


Prove me wrong. Give me one situation where the sailing rules don't
cover all eventualities even those in all overtaking situations.

This is a meaningless comment. You're only saying that an alternate version of the sailing rules could have been invented - one
that doesn't include the overtaking rule. For example, the yacht racing rules handle overtaking quite differently. However, they
are not the issue here. The Colregs are quite clear the Rule 13 takes priority, and it is the responsibility of the overtaking
vessel to avoid getting so close that it can't keep clear of the overtaken vessel.

You didn't give me a plausible scenario where if the sailing rules are
adhered to then why is Rule 13 necessary?

It is plain to me if the three simple sailing rules are followed then there
is no need for any stupid overtaking rule. The overtaking rule becomes
entirely superfluous.

CN