Neal,

This is a good example of truly," knowing the rule" or "Knowing the
words"

Ole Thom


http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomsHomePage

Wally wrote in message
k...
"Edgar" wrote in message news:U7aLd.6639

FYI there are no 'stationary observers' out at sea and moreover since
one
of the boats is by definition faster than the other their apparent wind
directions will differ anyway. It is not really all that complicated. If
you
are overtaking another boat you have to keep clear until you are 'clear
ahead'.

So, are you saying that, when the colregs refers to one boat being to
windward of another, that this is with reference to the apparent wind?

There is no other way to go unless you are prepared to read your speed log,
then go below and draw a velocity triangle to find the true wind and then
hope the other guy has done the same. This is a red herring that Neal has
drawn across the track and in practice it is not hard to know who is to
windward without any complications.

Thom Stewart wrote:
Neal,

This is a good example of truly," knowing the rule" or "Knowing the
words"

Ole Thom


http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomsHomePage


No Thom, Neal can't be this stupid. He's just doing this to cause
trouble. He knows I can't leave a bogus rules claim out there without
rebutting it.

Next he'll be claiming Rule 18 can be ignored because its obviously
bogus. First it says power boats have to stay clear of sailboats, then
it says sailboats must stay clear of fishing boats, which are
powerboats. Obviously inconsistent and therefore can be ignored.

And clearly the rules of Section II do not apply if the skipper is
blind, because other vessels are not in sight. Since maintaining a
lookout means that vessels would then be in sight means that that rule
is contradictory.

And lights must be carried from sunset to sunrise, but they fail to
specify which direction time is running ...

I forgot......Oz has no humour unless he's the one starting it. You sure
you don't keep your boat shackled to the docks on City Island?


OzOne wrote:
On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 07:50:25 -0500, "bell"
scribbled thusly:

What the fork does any of this thread have to do with
alt.sailing.asa?

Wow bell....ding a ling a ling!

Capt. Neal® wrote:
Rule 11
Rules in this section apply to vessels in sight of one
another.
Rule 12
(a) When two sailing vessels are approaching one
another, so as to involve risk of collision, one of
them shall
keep out of the way of the other as follows:

when each has the wind on a different side, the vessel
which has the wind on the port side shall keep out of
the way of
the other;
when both have the wind on the same side, the vessel
which is to windward shall keep out of the way of the
vessel which is to leeward;
if a vessel with the wind on the port side sees a vessel
to windward and cannot determine with certainty whether
the other vessel has the wind on the port or on the
starboard side, she shall keep out of the way of the
other.

(b) For the purposes of this Rule the windward side
shall be deemed to be the side opposite that on which
the mainsail is carried or, in the case of a
square-rigged vessel, the
side opposite to that on which the largest fore-and-aft
sail is carried.
Pretty simple, isn't it?

Most interesting to me is this part:

"when both have the wind on the same side, the vessel
which is to windward shall keep out of the way of the
vessel which is to leeward;"
This says if one sailboat is overtaking another and both
have the wind on the same side, then the sailboat to
weather is the give way vessel.
This tells me that the overtaking rule where the
overtaken vessel is always the stand-on vessel does not
apply to sailboats.
CN





Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting
you.

I'm sorry Jeff, but you're completely wrong about this. Neal *is* that
stupid.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
Thom Stewart wrote:
Neal,

This is a good example of truly," knowing the rule" or "Knowing the
words"

Ole Thom


http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomsHomePage


No Thom, Neal can't be this stupid. He's just doing this to cause
trouble. He knows I can't leave a bogus rules claim out there without
rebutting it.

Next he'll be claiming Rule 18 can be ignored because its obviously bogus.
First it says power boats have to stay clear of sailboats, then it says
sailboats must stay clear of fishing boats, which are powerboats.
Obviously inconsistent and therefore can be ignored.

And clearly the rules of Section II do not apply if the skipper is blind,
because other vessels are not in sight. Since maintaining a lookout means
that vessels would then be in sight means that that rule is contradictory.

And lights must be carried from sunset to sunrise, but they fail to
specify which direction time is running ...

Most of these putzes are too confused by now to know of which they speak.

Jeff is the worst. He makes the ludicrous statement that boats must follow
ALL the rules.

Let's see now, Jeff thinks he has to follow the rules for a sailboat, a fishing boat,
a Not Under Command boat, a boat aground, a boat in a fog, a boat Restricted
in its Ability to Navigate and he has to follow all these rules at the same time.

How warped is that kind of thinking, anyway?

The fact is, one follows the rules that concern certain boats in certain circumstances.

Rule 12 deals with how two sailboats interact. Rule 12 covers all eventualities. One
need not concern oneself with ALL the rules in order to operate legally. This includes
Rule 13 because it does not apply just like Rule 9 does not apply in open water.

CN




"Thom Stewart" wrote in message ...
Neal,

I'm beginning to wonder about this group a little myself on this one.
There are enough racing people that must know "LUFFING RIGHTS" and the
rest should have seen it used in the America's Cup Races on Downwind
Legs.

I didn't think you were that tricky in your wording, but I guess you
were.

Ole Thom

snip


Unfortunately Cappy, you again fail.
It is the responsibility of the windward vessel to stay clear until
the leeward one becomes an overtaking vessel when she must keep clear.

If the windward vessel is unable to point at high, she will slow down
whereupon the leeward vessel becomes an overtaking vessel,

Or the windward vessel is obliged to tack away.


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

I thought that the windward/leeward situation was a crossing
encounter. A crossing encouter isn't over untill it's resolved.
It doesn't change to a overtaking situation because the windward boat
slows and passes behind the leeward boat.
Mark E. Williams

Sorry Neal, all of the rules must be followed. Obviously, some imply no
action for some boats, but they all must be considered. You've claimed
that Rule 13 shouldn't even be considered because Rule 12 sometimes
might be used. What other Rules need not be considered? Rule 1? Rule
2? Are lookouts needed in your world?

You're claiming that a sailboat should ignore the rules for RAMs and
NUCs. Tell us Neal, just what rules are those? In fact, just about the
only rule that applies to NUCs and RAMs is Rule 13. The only rule that
mentions them by name says the sailboats must stay clear of them.

And what if a sailboat is also a NUC? Do we ignore Rule 18 because Neal
claims Rule 12 covers "all eventualities"? Nonsense!

One of the fundamental principles of marine law is that the rules are
mandatory. As Farwell puts it: "It will be recognized that a disregard
of any rule on the basis of convenience, courtesy, good nature, or
disbelief in its efficacy places the navigator under a burden of proof
that is almost impossible for him to carry."



Capt. Neal® wrote:


Most of these putzes are too confused by now to know of which they speak.

Jeff is the worst. He makes the ludicrous statement that boats must follow
ALL the rules.
Let's see now, Jeff thinks he has to follow the rules for a sailboat, a
fishing boat,
a Not Under Command boat, a boat aground, a boat in a fog, a boat
Restricted
in its Ability to Navigate and he has to follow all these rules at the
same time.

How warped is that kind of thinking, anyway?

The fact is, one follows the rules that concern certain boats in certain
circumstances.

Rule 12 deals with how two sailboats interact. Rule 12 covers all
eventualities. One
need not concern oneself with ALL the rules in order to operate legally.
This includes
Rule 13 because it does not apply just like Rule 9 does not apply in
open water.

CN




"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...

Neal,

I'm beginning to wonder about this group a little myself on this one.
There are enough racing people that must know "LUFFING RIGHTS" and the
rest should have seen it used in the America's Cup Races on Downwind
Legs.

I didn't think you were that tricky in your wording, but I guess you
were.

Ole Thom

You just don't understand how stupid and impossible your stance
is, do you?

It is not possible to follow all the Rules all the time. One must
decide which Rules apply to one's vessel and when they apply.
Once one does this one must ignore all the others that do not apply
or contradict.

To maintain that all Rules apply all the time is one of the most asinine
things I've ever heard. You've got a serious problem.

CN


"Jeff Morris" wrote in message ...
Sorry Neal, all of the rules must be followed. Obviously, some imply no action for some boats, but they all must be considered.
You've claimed that Rule 13 shouldn't even be considered because Rule 12 sometimes might be used. What other Rules need not be
considered? Rule 1? Rule 2? Are lookouts needed in your world?

You're claiming that a sailboat should ignore the rules for RAMs and NUCs. Tell us Neal, just what rules are those? In fact,
just about the only rule that applies to NUCs and RAMs is Rule 13. The only rule that mentions them by name says the sailboats
must stay clear of them.

And what if a sailboat is also a NUC? Do we ignore Rule 18 because Neal claims Rule 12 covers "all eventualities"? Nonsense!

One of the fundamental principles of marine law is that the rules are mandatory. As Farwell puts it: "It will be recognized that
a disregard of any rule on the basis of convenience, courtesy, good nature, or disbelief in its efficacy places the navigator
under a burden of proof that is almost impossible for him to carry."



Capt. Neal® wrote:


Most of these putzes are too confused by now to know of which they speak.

Jeff is the worst. He makes the ludicrous statement that boats must follow
ALL the rules.
Let's see now, Jeff thinks he has to follow the rules for a sailboat, a fishing boat,
a Not Under Command boat, a boat aground, a boat in a fog, a boat Restricted
in its Ability to Navigate and he has to follow all these rules at the same time.

How warped is that kind of thinking, anyway?

The fact is, one follows the rules that concern certain boats in certain circumstances.

Rule 12 deals with how two sailboats interact. Rule 12 covers all eventualities. One
need not concern oneself with ALL the rules in order to operate legally. This includes
Rule 13 because it does not apply just like Rule 9 does not apply in open water.

CN




"Thom Stewart" wrote in message ...

Neal,

I'm beginning to wonder about this group a little myself on this one.
There are enough racing people that must know "LUFFING RIGHTS" and the
rest should have seen it used in the America's Cup Races on Downwind
Legs.

I didn't think you were that tricky in your wording, but I guess you
were.

Ole Thom

snip

Unfortunately Cappy, you again fail.
It is the responsibility of the windward vessel to stay clear until
the leeward one becomes an overtaking vessel when she must keep clear.

If the windward vessel is unable to point at high, she will slow down
whereupon the leeward vessel becomes an overtaking vessel,

Or the windward vessel is obliged to tack away.


Are you talking about ColRegs or the racing rules?

Maynard G. Krebbs wrote:
I thought that the windward/leeward situation was a crossing
encounter. A crossing encouter isn't over untill it's resolved.
It doesn't change to a overtaking situation because the windward boat
slows and passes behind the leeward boat.

Agreed. Overtaking is different from W/L. The order of precedence for
vessels under sail is Starboard over Port (for which they have to be on
different tacks), Leeward over Windward (for which they have to be on
the same tack), Ahead over Astern (same tack, again).

I can see an overtaking vessel becoming leeward or windward (and there
is a whole lot about this in the racing rules) but not vice versa.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King