"Jeff Morris" wrote in message ...
Capt. Neal® wrote:

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message ...

This is a meaningless comment. You're only saying that an alternate version of the sailing rules could have been invented - one
that doesn't include the overtaking rule. For example, the yacht racing rules handle overtaking quite differently. However,
they are not the issue here. The Colregs are quite clear the Rule 13 takes priority, and it is the responsibility of the
overtaking vessel to avoid getting so close that it can't keep clear of the overtaken vessel.


But it's not meaningless. Take any two sailboats on any point of sail
where overtaking takes place and the situation is already covered by
one of the three sailing rules. If the sailing rules are followed, then there is no need for Rule 13. For sailboats, Rule 13 is
superfluous.
This is why Rule 13 is qualified by the notwithstanding word.

Are you now questioning the meaning of "notwithstanding"? Clearly Rules 12 and 13 have different implications for which vessel is
Give-way in some situations. This is why they included the word "notwithstanding" to say that Rule 13 take priority.



I can't say it any plainer than that. All it takes for you to disprove
what I am saying is to come up with one scenario where if two sailboats
are following the rules that an extra rule covering overtaking is needed.

Whether an extra rule is "needed" is irrelevant. The rule is there and it explicitly takes priority. You can't ignore the rules
as written because you think you could have a smaller set that is self-consistent.


Rule 13 cannot take priority over the sailing rules. It has no standing to do
so. When one follows the sailing rules then Rule 13 never has a chance to
even come into play. It is not needed so how can it take priority?

In order to follow rule 13 one would have to abandon the sailing rules.
One would be put in the uncomfortable situation of having to choose at
what point to abandon one rule in order to follow another. You know
as well as I do that that's bullcrap! As long as one follows the sailing
rules one is operating entirely legally. As soon as one deviates from
the sailing rules one is acting entirely illegally.

CN

"Wally" wrote in message
...

Even if the windward boat was close-hauled, he can always tack away if he
can't point higher to avoid the stand-on vessel. If you'd ever been
racing,
you'd see this happen a dozen or more times in every race.

Ah, but Neal isn't a racer, and he has stated on many occasions that racers
aren't real sailors. He'd brown his bermudas if he ever had to maneuver in
close quarters with other boats at a start line.

John Cairns

OzOne wrote in message news
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 21:27:54 -0500, Capt. Neal®
scribbled thusly:


Please indicate where anything is mentioned about overtaking?


Rule 12
(a) When two sailing vessels are approaching one another. . .

Does that statement not include overtaking?

CN

Not when there is another rule to cover overtaking!

You need to read and understand ALL the rules Cappy, it's the same old
story,


And perhaps you need to go sailing once in a while and try following
the sailing rules and then you will see you will never even have a
chance to use Rule 13.

All you need to do to prove me wrong is describe one situation where,
if two sailboats are both following the sailing rules, rule 13 would
even come into play. You cannot do it and neither can Jeff because the
three sailing rules, if followed, cover it all.

CN

Wrong, bozo, like Jeff and Wally said, he could always tack. At any rate,
if both boats are complying with the sailing rules overtaking situations
are covered. The need for Rule 13 is nil.

CN


OzOne wrote in message ...
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 22:34:38 -0500, Capt. Neal®
scribbled thusly:

You didn't give me a plausible scenario where if the sailing rules are
adhered to then why is Rule 13 necessary?

It is plain to me if the three simple sailing rules are followed then there
is no need for any stupid overtaking rule. The overtaking rule becomes
entirely superfluous.

CN
Cappy, you have already given the scenario.
If the windward boat is not able to point as high as the leeward
yacht, he must employ another method to stay clear, or slow and pass
the baton to the now overtaking boat.


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

It depends on what boats are involved, a ****y Coronado which can only point
at 90 degrees to the wind versus a normal yacht , the situation is totally
different.



"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
...

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
Capt. Neal® wrote:
...

Most interesting to me is this part:

"when both have the wind on the same side, the vessel which is to
windward shall keep out of the way of the vessel which is to
leeward;"

This says if one sailboat is overtaking another and both have the wind
on the same side, then the sailboat to weather is the give way vessel.

This tells me that the overtaking rule where the overtaken vessel is
always
the stand-on vessel does not apply to sailboats.


Why didn't you continue with the beginning of Rule 13:

(a) Notwithstanding anything contained in the Rules of Part B,
Sections I and II, any vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of
the way of the vessel being overtaken.

What part of "Notwithstanding anything contained" do you interpret as
meaning Rule 12 takes priority over Rule 13?

How do you expect anyone to believe that you passed the Master's exam,
when you seem confused by this simple point?

Good point but it is physically impossible for a sailboat to windward to
stay out of the way of another to leeward if the leeward vessel is more
weatherly. The windward vessel cannot point higher to avoid the
leeward vessel. He cannot fall off without creating a close quarters
situation, and he cannot speed up or slow down because those things
depend on the speed of the wind. These facts alone negate rule 13
which works well for motor vessels but not for sailing vessels. It is
plain
to me if one follows the sailing rules then rule 13 is superfluous.

Prove me wrong. Give me one situation where the sailing rules don't
cover all eventualities even those in all overtaking situations.

CN

I believe the rule on overtaking takes precedence over the windward/leeward
rules. else it would be toggling between the two rules if the overtaking
boat is to the leeward.

"Wally" wrote in message
...
"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message

This all begs the question of at what point does an overtaking situation
actually start? Where does the sailing rule end and the overtaking rule
take over. I say it never does unless the windward vessel fails to
follow
the sailing rules and creates a close quarters situation.

Ah, I see what you're saying - the leeward boat could be overtaking, at
which point he becomes the give-way, rather than the stand-on vessel. I
don't know what it says in the colregs, but the RRS has stuff about
overlaps
which could be used to define precisely when the overtaking maneuvre is
happening.

What the fork does any of this thread have to do with alt.sailing.asa?






Capt. Neal® wrote:
Rule 11
Rules in this section apply to vessels in sight of one
another.
Rule 12
(a) When two sailing vessels are approaching one
another, so as to involve risk of collision, one of them shall
keep out of the way of the other as follows:

when each has the wind on a different side, the vessel
which has the wind on the port side shall keep out of the way of
the other;
when both have the wind on the same side, the vessel
which is to windward shall keep out of the way of the vessel which is
to leeward;
if a vessel with the wind on the port side sees a vessel
to windward and cannot determine with certainty whether the other
vessel has the wind on the port or on the starboard side, she shall keep
out of the way of the other.

(b) For the purposes of this Rule the windward side
shall be deemed to be the side opposite that on which the mainsail is
carried or, in the case of a square-rigged vessel, the
side opposite to that on which the largest fore-and-aft
sail is carried.
Pretty simple, isn't it?

Most interesting to me is this part:

"when both have the wind on the same side, the vessel
which is to windward shall keep out of the way of the vessel which is
to leeward;"
This says if one sailboat is overtaking another and both
have the wind on the same side, then the sailboat to weather is the
give way vessel.
This tells me that the overtaking rule where the
overtaken vessel is always the stand-on vessel does not
apply to sailboats.
CN

Capt. Neal® wrote:

OzOne wrote in message news
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 21:27:54 -0500, Capt. Neal®
scribbled thusly:


Please indicate where anything is mentioned about overtaking?


Rule 12
(a) When two sailing vessels are approaching one another. . .

Does that statement not include overtaking?

CN


Not when there is another rule to cover overtaking!

You need to read and understand ALL the rules Cappy, it's the same old
story,



And perhaps you need to go sailing once in a while and try following
the sailing rules and then you will see you will never even have a
chance to use Rule 13.

All you need to do to prove me wrong is describe one situation where,
if two sailboats are both following the sailing rules, rule 13 would
even come into play. You cannot do it and neither can Jeff because the
three sailing rules, if followed, cover it all.

First of all, the issue is not whether Rule 13 is "needed," by some
measure; the rule exists and therefore mus be followed.

However, I'll give you a case where Rule 12 does not cover two
sailboats: Two sailboats A and B are on a beam reach. B is directly
behind A and overtaking. Both are on the same tack, neither is windward
or leeward or the other. Nothing in Rule 12 covers this situation. In
fact, this is the simplest case of where Rule 13 would supersede Rule
12. How could Neal be so stupid as to not see it?

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message

However, I'll give you a case where Rule 12 does not cover two
sailboats: Two sailboats A and B are on a beam reach. B is directly
behind A and overtaking. Both are on the same tack, neither is windward
or leeward or the other. Nothing in Rule 12 covers this situation. In
fact, this is the simplest case of where Rule 13 would supersede Rule
12. How could Neal be so stupid as to not see it?

How do you define 'overtaking', and in what way is it different from
'gaining on'? If one boat is clear astern of the other, is it overtaking?

Wally wrote:
"Jeff Morris" wrote in message


However, I'll give you a case where Rule 12 does not cover two
sailboats: Two sailboats A and B are on a beam reach. B is directly
behind A and overtaking. Both are on the same tack, neither is windward
or leeward or the other. Nothing in Rule 12 covers this situation. In
fact, this is the simplest case of where Rule 13 would supersede Rule
12. How could Neal be so stupid as to not see it?


How do you define 'overtaking', and in what way is it different from
'gaining on'? If one boat is clear astern of the other, is it overtaking?

It doesn't matter how I might define overtaking; the Colregs do a pretty
good job of it:

13 (b) A vessel shall be deemed to be overtaking when coming up with
another vessel from a direction more than 22.5 degrees abaft her
beam, that is, in such a position with reference to the vessel she is
overtaking, that at night she would be able to see only the sternlight
of that vessel but neither of her sidelights.

A curious aspect of the wording is that it uses the stern light as the
reference point. Thus, you might claim that once an overlap is
established (to use the racing term) then it is no longer an overtaking
situation. However, Rule 13(c) says that "when in doubt, you must
consider it to be overtaking" and Rule 13(d) says that if a boat
approaches from astern, it is an overtaking situation until it is clear
ahead:

(c) When a vessel is in any doubt as to whether she if overtaking
another, she shall assume that this is the case and act accordingly.
(d) Any subsequent alteration of the bearing between the two vessels
shall not make the overtaking vessel a crossing vessel within the
meaning of these Rules or relieve her of the duty of keeping clear of
the overtaken vessel until she is finally past and clear.