Where are your numbers, Bob Crantz? A stationary and
permanent magnetic creates electricity? Which field is
dangerous - electric or magnetic? And how much? How much are
the fields under a high voltage transmissions lines? And why
do you worry about those high voltage wires when your own
citations, instead, discuss lower voltage wires inside the
building?

It is a classic junk science maneuver. Hype some fear.
Provide no numbers. Then when numbers expose the fear as
hype, attack the messenger rather than provide required
numbers.

Tell us Bob Crantz. How strong are those fields underneath
that high voltage transmission line? You hyped the fear. But
you forgot to mention whether such fearful numbers even exist
under that transmission line.

In the meantime, others should again remember which electric
lines are accused of being dangerous. Not the high voltage
transmission lines. Even Bob Crantz's own citation discusses
which electric lines were originally suspect. Those low
voltage wires inside the building. Worry more about where the
wire to your electric stove is routed - if there is anything
to even worry about.

Molecular resonance. Fine. Why is it so dangerous? You
forgot to mention field size - provide numbers - that make
molecular resonance significant. It was not an accidental
omission.

Don't take an MRI. Those fields are so much stronger as to
kill everyone who gets an MRI? Or maybe the hype should first
provide some numbers? According to what Bob Crantz has
posted, then clearly MRIs must kill some people. Why? Where
are his numbers to go along with all those dead brain cells?

Fortunately Scout will get a meter and learn the numbers.
Numbers are what the first posts in this thread should have
provided up front. Missing numbers are why so many can post
fear about electric transmission lines. No numbers is the
source of so much 'junk science' promoted fear.

Bob Crantz wrote:
Where are you facts to support your assertions? You infer the
Leeper study and then don't mention it by name.

You completely fail to even consider molecular resonance.

You fail to consider aggregate resonance of the human body.

You cite the complexity of field conditions, which is true, but fail
to cite controlled laboratory experiments which can isolate cause
and effect and show the effects of electric and magnetic fields
on biological systems.
Here's just one example of magnetic fields used to control brain
chemistry:

http://nursing.vanderbilt.edu/pain/r.../pub-prot.html

Here's some Q&A:

http://www.mcw.edu/gcrc/cop/powerlin...r-FAQ/toc.html

Note the conclusions in the article say powerlines can't hurt you
as far as cancer and leukemia go.

Just for fun, take a light steel or copper cable/wire (uninsulated)
and use it as a jump rope with your bare, sweaty hands under a
power line. Try it at different distances and orientations from the
line.

"w_tom" wrote in message
...
Many replies are so full of urban myth that I must restart.
Lets start with health effects rumored to be caused by
electricity (and ignore that original study was later
discovered with gross statistical errors). Many immediately
assume danger was in high tension wires. They first failed to
learn or demand the numbers. Those health effects, if exist,
were more likely from something that creates stronger fields -
such as wires underneath floor and inside walls, from circuit
breaker box to central air conditioner. Those who jump to
conclusions immediately assumed the study was about high
tension wires.

'Those' include many news anchors who refuse to first do what
all responsible anchormen are suppose to do - verify the story
- hold the reporter's feet to the fire - do as Walter Cronkite
did so routinely and so viciously. Immediately, the reply
from many posters is suspect - having confused health risk
warnings about something else - then assuming it must be high
tension wires. They assumed as many irresponsible news
anchors did on local news shows. Urban myth is now rampant
even in this thread.
...
Among the numbers not provided were line voltages. 128 kV?
230 kV? 765 kV? These also define other conditions such a
noise. What is on those electric distribution towers? Bottom
line. You need numbers before anyone can properly answer your
question. Lets not forget, the original Scandinavian study
that started all this hype was later discovered to have
manipulated the statistics. This was discovered by other
scientists who finally got access to the raw data. IOW hype
continued until numbers were revealed. Any yet the
speculation continues here - again without numbers.
...

Capt. Neal® wrote:

Negative! There is no current unless there is a conductor.
A conductor allows low-energy electrons to jump from atom
to atom.

How does a vacuum tube work, then? A vacuum isn't a conductor, right?


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

Lady Pilot wrote:

Your love powers his computer?

Hehee. Probably so, I'm such a great power source...TONAL

Ah, my email address is why you thought I might be Donal in disguise? 'Fraid
not- it's tonal, as in 'tone', as in musical.


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

The E and H field of an orbiting, non radiating electron are in phase
quadrature. When an electron spins on its own axis, it creates a magnetic
field.
Interestingly, a discovery by Faraday, shows that a moving charged
dielectric creates a magnetic field.
Another item of interest is Farady's unipolar generator where there is no
relative motion between the conductor and magnet and current is produced.
These type of generators are used to generate high currents.
Falling water droplets can generate very high voltages, as discovered by
Lord Kelvin (Kelvin electrostatic generator).

Amen!

Bob Crantz


"Scout" wrote in message
...
I see what you mean. Each electron orbit is a closed circuit.
Does emf play some role in propelling an electron through its orbit?
Scout

"Bob Crantz" wrote
The flux must cross a closed conductor (loop) for current to flow. But
that
is pertinent to a permanent magnet.

Atoms have magnetic fields from the electron orbits. The electron is in
motion around the nucleus in a closed path. The electron, through its
motion, is a current and generates a magnetic field. If enough atoms are
in
correct alignemnt you have a net magnetic field.

"Scout" wrote in message
...
I thought the flux had to cross a conductor for current to flow.

"Bob Crantz" wrote in message
link.net...
A permanent magnet does have current flow.


"Scout" wrote in message
...
"JG" wrote in message
...
I believe the Swedes did a study that showed there were know ill
effects
on
people, but I would pass on it if it were overhead. I believe their
study
was directly overhead. 200 feet probably wouldn't be an issue. More
investigation is, of course, warranted.

Makes one wonder about the magic magnetic bracelets and bands people
wear
for pain management. Why would magnetic flux be a miracle cure when
produced
by a permanent magnet but not when produced by current flow?
Scout

"w_tom" wrote in message
...
Where are your numbers, Bob Crantz?

Read the NASA citation. There's numbers. Read the handbook for Magnetic
shielding. There's numbers. Every reference I gave has numbers.

A stationary and
permanent magnetic creates electricity?

Yes it can, if you move relative to it. Faradays unipolar generator
(featured on the English 20 pound note) needs no relative motion between the
conductor and magnet to produce electricity. Look it up.

Which field is
dangerous - electric or magnetic?

They both can be.


And how much?

80 mv transmembrane potential is all it takes.


How much are
the fields under a high voltage transmissions lines?

Between the lines take the voltage between them and divide by the separation
of the lines to get the field strength in volts per meter. If you know the
location of the ground below them (as in electrical ground) you can create
the image circuit (using the method of images) and calculate the field
strength also at the ground level.


And why
do you worry about those high voltage wires when your own
citations, instead, discuss lower voltage wires inside the
building?


The high voltage is ionizing the air. Ever hear that crackling noise? What
is the voltage induced in a moving object under a power line? Any idea?
Indoor wiring = very bad!


It is a classic junk science maneuver. Hype some fear.
Provide no numbers. Then when numbers expose the fear as
hype, attack the messenger rather than provide required
numbers.

Well, where's the proof of your point?



Tell us Bob Crantz. How strong are those fields underneath
that high voltage transmission line? You hyped the fear. But
you forgot to mention whether such fearful numbers even exist
under that transmission line.

100 V/m typically, which would induce 200 volts in a standing human. 80 mV
is all it takes.




In the meantime, others should again remember which electric
lines are accused of being dangerous. Not the high voltage
transmission lines. Even Bob Crantz's own citation discusses
which electric lines were originally suspect. Those low
voltage wires inside the building. Worry more about where the
wire to your electric stove is routed - if there is anything
to even worry about.

I'd really worry about wiring in the house!



Molecular resonance. Fine. Why is it so dangerous? You
forgot to mention field size - provide numbers - that make
molecular resonance significant. It was not an accidental
omission.


In large molecules, such as DNA, resonance can be used to alter the
molecule. The field strength or magnetic moment would have to exceed the
bond energy of the particular molecular link.



Don't take an MRI. Those fields are so much stronger as to
kill everyone who gets an MRI?

Don't get X-Rays. Those are so much stronger as to kill everyone who gets an
X-Ray?

(XRays are ioninzing radiation, much stronger, much more dangerous than the
27 MHz field of an NMR machine.)

Why do MRI machine operators work in a shielded area?

It's the cumulative dose that counts! You can get one big dose in a short
time or live under a powerline for decades.


Or maybe the hype should first
provide some numbers? According to what Bob Crantz has
posted, then clearly MRIs must kill some people. Why? Where
are his numbers to go along with all those dead brain cells?

It's the cumulative dose. MRI's have killed people.



Fortunately Scout will get a meter and learn the numbers.
Numbers are what the first posts in this thread should have
provided up front. Missing numbers are why so many can post
fear about electric transmission lines. No numbers is the
source of so much 'junk science' promoted fear.

Didn't check my references did you?



Bob Crantz wrote:
Where are you facts to support your assertions? You infer the
Leeper study and then don't mention it by name.

You completely fail to even consider molecular resonance.

You fail to consider aggregate resonance of the human body.

You cite the complexity of field conditions, which is true, but fail
to cite controlled laboratory experiments which can isolate cause
and effect and show the effects of electric and magnetic fields
on biological systems.
Here's just one example of magnetic fields used to control brain
chemistry:

http://nursing.vanderbilt.edu/pain/r.../pub-prot.html

Here's some Q&A:

http://www.mcw.edu/gcrc/cop/powerlin...r-FAQ/toc.html

Note the conclusions in the article say powerlines can't hurt you
as far as cancer and leukemia go.

Just for fun, take a light steel or copper cable/wire (uninsulated)
and use it as a jump rope with your bare, sweaty hands under a
power line. Try it at different distances and orientations from the
line.

"w_tom" wrote in message
...
Many replies are so full of urban myth that I must restart.
Lets start with health effects rumored to be caused by
electricity (and ignore that original study was later
discovered with gross statistical errors). Many immediately
assume danger was in high tension wires. They first failed to
learn or demand the numbers. Those health effects, if exist,
were more likely from something that creates stronger fields -
such as wires underneath floor and inside walls, from circuit
breaker box to central air conditioner. Those who jump to
conclusions immediately assumed the study was about high
tension wires.

'Those' include many news anchors who refuse to first do what
all responsible anchormen are suppose to do - verify the story
- hold the reporter's feet to the fire - do as Walter Cronkite
did so routinely and so viciously. Immediately, the reply
from many posters is suspect - having confused health risk
warnings about something else - then assuming it must be high
tension wires. They assumed as many irresponsible news
anchors did on local news shows. Urban myth is now rampant
even in this thread.
...
Among the numbers not provided were line voltages. 128 kV?
230 kV? 765 kV? These also define other conditions such a
noise. What is on those electric distribution towers? Bottom
line. You need numbers before anyone can properly answer your
question. Lets not forget, the original Scandinavian study
that started all this hype was later discovered to have
manipulated the statistics. This was discovered by other
scientists who finally got access to the raw data. IOW hype
continued until numbers were revealed. Any yet the
speculation continues here - again without numbers.
...

"w_tom" wrote in message
...
Scout - you are correct. To create an electric current, the
magnetic field must be changing. This is basic and
fundamental to Maxwell's equations and should have been known
to those posting permanent magnets creating electricity.

Maxwell's equations are boundary conditions. They are not causal equations.
The changing E does not create the changing H and vice versa.

Here's two examples that demonstrate this:

The E and H fields of cellular phone signals in a high multipath environment
are uncorrelated. If the E caused the H they would be correlated. Maxwell's
equations do not apply to these signals at the point they are measured.

The E and H fields of a plane wave in free space are related through the
intrinsic impedance of space and supposedly "Maxwells equations" (as you
"understand" them). The plane wave impinges on an H field shielded room.
Inside the room the H field virtually goes to zero, the E field is virtually
unaffected. The E field exists without the H field.

The magnetic field of a permanent magnet comes from moving charge -
electrical current. There's no other way to produce a magnetic field. It's
the curl of E according to Maxwell. How is the magnetic field of a permanent
magnet produced?


Electrons moving inside 'shells' of the atom are totally
irrelevant to electricity. Electricity means electrons move
from atom to atom. It means the conductive path is a complete
circuit. A permanent magnet has no moving field; therefore
creates no electricity. Motion is also necessary.

The movement of charge alone is what is defined as electricity. It doesn't
matter if its atom to atom. Bound charge on a moving macroscopic body is
also considered electricitiy - current flow. The source of magnetism in a
permanent magnet is the motion of charge.



Furthermore note many half truths. Where are the numbers?
Yes the sun can vaporize anything. Therefore we must keep
everything out of the sun?

The sun is an uncontrolled fission reaction spewing its waste products at
earth. Sit in the sun for 9 hours on a nice summer day with no sun
protection and your chances of getting cancer are much higher than living
next to 3 Mile Island all your life!


Too much salt kills. Therefore
the salt shaker should be treated as a hazardous material.

It is. Ever see the MSDS sheet for it? The warnings on children's play sand
in California?


This is how others promote hype and fear. No place do these
fears apply to high voltage power towers. You would think
from these posts that those high voltage towers subject the
human body to 5 Telsa.

Read the conclusions of the NASA paper. Low doses can change cellular
growth.




In one cited study, 200 mGauss caused changes to cellular
growth. That proves fields from electric lines will harm
humans. Wait. That field is less than the earth's magnetic
field. Therefore we are all being killed by the earth? This
is the type of hype and fear being promoted.

The earth's field is essentially static. Powerlines fields are
electromagnetic - they are changing 60 times a second. Big difference!



Worry. Where the wire bends, then fields are so much
stronger? How much stronger? Trivial stronger. Again
numbers would expose the hype. And hype it is.

Strong enough to induce arcing and radiation.



Posted is
proof that all electric fields kill? Why do trivial fields
from power lines kill when significantly larger fields (a
decade+ larger) from the CRT do not?

CRT fields are at 15 KHz, not 60 Hz. What do you use the word kill when all
the references cited talk of increases in cellular activity?



In another citation, field exceed 1 gauss before considered
dangerous. So where is this 1 gauss field from the high
voltage distribution line? It must be if the line is 230 Kv?
Again, posted was fear without considering what actual numbers
would be from that power line.

Magnetic field depends on current, not kV.


So what is cited as dangerous? Because fields generated by
a building transformer might be hazardous, then high voltage
transmission lines also must be dangerous?

They could be. The field of a transformer is contained within the core of
the transformer, it's designed that way. The magnetic field of a
transmission line is external to it. In fact, all the power of a
transmission line is contained in the field suurrounding it, not in the
conductor. The conductor is net neutral.

Again, notice
which electric lines are discussed. Not those high voltage
transmission lines. Lower voltage, high current electric
wires inside the building. Again there is this problem with
hyping all electricity as dangerous only because very high
magnetic fields MIGHT be dangerous.

Interior wiring very bad!

Power lines bad!


Ball park numbers. Long before the location is dangerous, a
CRT or TV would have display problems.

Not so, they are shielded with mu metal.

Now we have something
concrete to consider. IOW we have a ballpark number AND some
way to measure for that number.

More interesting. What fields are really deadly? Magnetic
or Electric? I wonder if those hyping fear even know the
difference. But most shocking is some ridiculous idea that a
motionless magnet creates electricity.

Go back and read again what I wrote. A permanent magnet does have current
flow. That IS what produces the magnetic field. Go check your Maxwell's
equations to find the source of magnetism. It's the curl of E, electric
field lines that close upon themselves. The path of an orbiting electron is
a closed E path. Can you name another source of curl E that causes magnetism
in a permanent magnet?

That is also why del dot B is zero. There are no magnetic monopoles.



Get the gauss meter. Take some measurements. Suddenly much
of the hype being promoted here by some will disappear.
Amazing what a few numbers can do to make so many previous
posts irrelevant or misleading.

Check the frequency response of the gauss meter. Then check your readings
against the field strengths causing biological changes in the numerous
scientific references I gave and decide for yourself. Statistical studies
show correlation, not causality. In fact, you can have a study in which E
fields changed the outcomes of the test group on an individual basis, yet
the statistics show no change. Real science is the lab -cause and effect is
the only definitive answer.

Satan and Demons live under power lines!

Amen!!!

Praise!!!!

Bob Crantz


Scout wrote:
I thought the flux had to cross a conductor for current to flow.

"Bob Crantz" wrote in message
link.net...
A permanent magnet does have current flow.

Negative. There are large electromagnets that control the path of the electron on its
way to the phosphors on the viewing screen. There is no current only bare electrons
moving across a vacuum by magnetic forces to the phosphors. There is no conductor.
A conductor is usually a metal like a wire that is made of copper or silver or gold in
which the atoms have loosely bound electrons in the outer shell which can jump from
one atom to the next.

CN


"Scout" wrote in message ...
How about when a CRT fires electrons through a vacuum and onto phosphorus
coated screen, would you consider that to be current flowing without a
conductor?
Scout

"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
...
Negative! There is no current unless there is a conductor.
A conductor allows low-energy electrons to jump from atom
to atom.

CN


"Scout" wrote in message
...
but isn't Bob's point that the electron is moving, and in doing so must
have
a path, and hence, by definition, is electrical current?
Scout

"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
...
What a behind-the-times bunch of Putzes!

It has been proven electrons don't have an orbit. According to
quantum mechanics, electrons only have probability of filling those
areas around the core of an atom where the wave component of
the electron can exist without canceling itself out.

I hope this helps.

CN


"Scout" wrote in message
...
I see what you mean. Each electron orbit is a closed circuit.
Does emf play some role in propelling an electron through its orbit?
Scout

"Bob Crantz" wrote
The flux must cross a closed conductor (loop) for current to flow.
But
that
is pertinent to a permanent magnet.

Atoms have magnetic fields from the electron orbits. The electron is
in
motion around the nucleus in a closed path. The electron, through
its
motion, is a current and generates a magnetic field. If enough atoms
are
in
correct alignemnt you have a net magnetic field.

"Scout" wrote in message
...
I thought the flux had to cross a conductor for current to flow.

"Bob Crantz" wrote in message
link.net...
A permanent magnet does have current flow.


"Scout" wrote in message
...
"JG" wrote in message
...
I believe the Swedes did a study that showed there were know
ill
effects
on
people, but I would pass on it if it were overhead. I believe
their
study
was directly overhead. 200 feet probably wouldn't be an issue.
More
investigation is, of course, warranted.

Makes one wonder about the magic magnetic bracelets and bands
people
wear
for pain management. Why would magnetic flux be a miracle cure
when
produced
by a permanent magnet but not when produced by current flow?
Scout

Here's a reference from a company that produces permanent magnets. They
explain the cause of magnetism in the permanent magnet:

http://www.arnoldmagnetics.com/mtc/pm_manual_chap_1.htm

"Magnetic fields from permanent magnets arise from two atomic sources: the
spin and orbital motions of electrons. Therefore, the magnetic
characteristics of a material may change as a function of alloying with
other elements. For example, a non-magnetic material such as aluminum can
become magnetic in materials such as alnico or manganese-aluminum-carbon. It
may also change from mechanical working or any other stress to the crystal
lattice."

The orbital motion as well as the spin are regarded as electrical currents.
By definition I= dQ/dt (the current is equal to the change in charge with
regard to time at a specific location). If a charge moves, it is current, it
is electricity. For example, solar flares are huge charge ejections that
create magnetic fields with no conductor involved.

Remember the electric and magnetic field of the sun is so small it can't
possibly knock out satellites, let alone affect power grids here on earth!

The gravitational field follows the same decay rate as the electric field
from a charged sphere. Hence, the gravitational field of the sun or moon is
so weak it can't affect us here on earth!

Sunlight is so weak in field strength (it's an electromagnetic wave too) it
can't possible cause cancer!

Amen!

Bob Crantz



"Scout" wrote in message
...
I see what you mean. Each electron orbit is a closed circuit.
Does emf play some role in propelling an electron through its orbit?
Scout

"Bob Crantz" wrote
The flux must cross a closed conductor (loop) for current to flow. But
that
is pertinent to a permanent magnet.

Atoms have magnetic fields from the electron orbits. The electron is in
motion around the nucleus in a closed path. The electron, through its
motion, is a current and generates a magnetic field. If enough atoms are
in
correct alignemnt you have a net magnetic field.

"Scout" wrote in message
...
I thought the flux had to cross a conductor for current to flow.

"Bob Crantz" wrote in message
link.net...
A permanent magnet does have current flow.


"Scout" wrote in message
...
"JG" wrote in message
...
I believe the Swedes did a study that showed there were know ill
effects
on
people, but I would pass on it if it were overhead. I believe their
study
was directly overhead. 200 feet probably wouldn't be an issue. More
investigation is, of course, warranted.

Makes one wonder about the magic magnetic bracelets and bands people
wear
for pain management. Why would magnetic flux be a miracle cure when
produced
by a permanent magnet but not when produced by current flow?
Scout

You're sinking fast here, Neal. That "Physics for English Majors"
course you took gave you a few buzzwords, but no knowledge.

Capt. Neal® wrote:

Negative. There are large electromagnets that control the path of the electron on its
way to the phosphors on the viewing screen. There is no current only bare electrons
moving across a vacuum by magnetic forces to the phosphors. There is no conductor.
A conductor is usually a metal like a wire that is made of copper or silver or gold in
which the atoms have loosely bound electrons in the outer shell which can jump from
one atom to the next.

CN


"Scout" wrote in message ...

How about when a CRT fires electrons through a vacuum and onto phosphorus
coated screen, would you consider that to be current flowing without a
conductor?
Scout

"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
...

Negative! There is no current unless there is a conductor.
A conductor allows low-energy electrons to jump from atom
to atom.

CN


"Scout" wrote in message
...

but isn't Bob's point that the electron is moving, and in doing so must
have
a path, and hence, by definition, is electrical current?
Scout

"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
...

What a behind-the-times bunch of Putzes!

It has been proven electrons don't have an orbit. According to
quantum mechanics, electrons only have probability of filling those
areas around the core of an atom where the wave component of
the electron can exist without canceling itself out.

I hope this helps.

CN


"Scout" wrote in message
...

I see what you mean. Each electron orbit is a closed circuit.
Does emf play some role in propelling an electron through its orbit?
Scout

"Bob Crantz" wrote

The flux must cross a closed conductor (loop) for current to flow.
But
that
is pertinent to a permanent magnet.

Atoms have magnetic fields from the electron orbits. The electron is
in
motion around the nucleus in a closed path. The electron, through
its
motion, is a current and generates a magnetic field. If enough atoms
are
in
correct alignemnt you have a net magnetic field.

"Scout" wrote in message
...

I thought the flux had to cross a conductor for current to flow.

"Bob Crantz" wrote in message
as.earthlink.net...

A permanent magnet does have current flow.


"Scout" wrote in message
...

"JG" wrote in message
. ..

I believe the Swedes did a study that showed there were know
ill

effects

on

people, but I would pass on it if it were overhead. I believe
their
study
was directly overhead. 200 feet probably wouldn't be an issue.
More
investigation is, of course, warranted.

Makes one wonder about the magic magnetic bracelets and bands
people

wear

for pain management. Why would magnetic flux be a miracle cure
when

produced

by a permanent magnet but not when produced by current flow?
Scout

Capt. Neal® wrote:
Negative. There are large electromagnets that control the path of the
electron on its way to the phosphors on the viewing screen. There is no
current only bare electrons moving across a vacuum by magnetic forces
to the phosphors.

What's that called if it isn't current?


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk