Please explain how DNA testing can identify the consanguinity between
people who lived 3,000 years ago, when the identity of the people tested
is an open question.


Vito wrote:
Simple. According to legend Moishe's people came from near what's now
Baghdad via Egypt, killed all of the indigineous peoples in the "promised
land" and replaced them. Were that true there would be DNA evidence that
one gene pool had been replaced by another. Just the opposite is true.

You've ignored the basic barrier to answering the question.

How do you know the identities of the people you're getting the DNA from
after 3,000 years?

You assertions are of no value until you answer this first.

BTW in ancient warfare it was extremely uncommon to kill all the
defeated people. Where do you think slave girls & concubines came from?



I had no intent of covering all of history in this forum

Do you have any intention of discussing history?

... nor debating
whether 50% or 49% or 1% of Jews escaped the Diaspora, especially with
anyone who "knows" that only Jews lived in Roman Judea but doesn't
understand genetic research

!!!

You know all about it, you saw it on TV!


religious beliefs cannot be challenged with truth. I made the simple
statement that Jews driven from Judea 2000 years ago had become ethnic and
cultural Europeans

Somewhat, sure. But they were enough different from Christian Europeans
to be expelled and to suffer pogroms.

... and that European Jews immigrated into Palestine after
ww2 to establish a Jewish state

Slightly true but ignores 90% of what really happened to establish Israel.

... and displace the indigenous residents.

That doesn't seem to have been the Jews intention in 1947 and '48. What
really happened is that the Arabs rejected the partition, wanted *all*
the land and all Jewish property, and plotted to kill the Jews once the
British Army left them alone. Instead they got a big surprise and have
been crying "no fair, do over!" ever since.

DSK

"DSK" wrote ...
Please explain how DNA testing can identify the consanguinity between
people who lived 3,000 years ago, when the identity of the people tested
is an open question.


Vito wrote:
Simple. According to legend Moishe's people came from near what's now
Baghdad via Egypt, killed all of the indigineous peoples in the
"promised
land" and replaced them. Were that true there would be DNA evidence
that
one gene pool had been replaced by another. Just the opposite is true.

You've ignored the basic barrier to answering the question.

How do you know the identities of the people you're getting the DNA from
after 3,000 years?

I'm sorry, I misunderstood your question. They don't test people who lived
3000 years ago. They test a statistically sound number of people who's
ancestors have lived in and around Palistine for many generations. If the
Moses myth were true we'd find that people who descended from Moses'
invaders were in a different gene pool than those from areas that were not
invaded and that this pool would resemble those from Baghdad and/or Egypt.
That's not what was found. Instead the researchers, Israelis BTW, found no
statistical evidence that one gene pool replace another IAW the 5th book.
So, if Moses ever existed, and there is scant evidence either way, then his
followers were few and were simply absorbed into the area's indigineous gene
pool.


BTW in ancient warfare it was extremely uncommon to kill all the
defeated people. Where do you think slave girls & concubines came from?

But in this case God told them to kill off the locals. But DNA says they
didn't so the Moses myth is wrong on that score.



I had no intent of covering all of history in this forum

Do you have any intention of discussing history?

... nor debating
whether 50% or 49% or 1% of Jews escaped the Diaspora, especially with
anyone who "knows" that only Jews lived in Roman Judea but doesn't
understand genetic research

!!!

You know all about it, you saw it on TV!

Well actually no, I have a DD and try to keep up with discoveries, but
recent Discovery and History Channel essays are pretty factual and easily
researched.


religious beliefs cannot be challenged with truth. I made the simple
statement that Jews driven from Judea 2000 years ago had become ethnic
and
cultural Europeans

Somewhat, sure. But they were enough different from Christian Europeans
to be expelled and to suffer pogroms.

There you go disembling again. That's true, but Euro-Jews were and are more
similar to other Euros than they are to Jews from , say, Ethiopia.

... and that European Jews immigrated into Palestine after
ww2 to establish a Jewish state

Slightly true but ignores 90% of what really happened to establish Israel.

No, it's entirely true. There'd be no Israel were it not for that influx of
Euro culture. 90%? More like 99.9% because it isn't relevent to whether or
not Euro (and other) Jews have a right to Palistine. I mean, like Golda was
from Milwaukee IIRC but so what?


... and displace the indigenous residents.

That doesn't seem to have been the Jews intention in 1947 and '48. What
really happened is that the Arabs rejected the partition, wanted *all*
the land and all Jewish property, and plotted to kill the Jews once the
British Army left them alone. Instead they got a big surprise and have
been crying "no fair, do over!" ever since.

Which Jews' intention? Most? Prolly not? Some? For sure. Remember Sharon
defiling the mosque to derail the last peace plan? Radicals like the Lukid
party want to gather all Jews to Israel and there's not enough room unless
the Palistinians go away - as in to Allah.

What really happened? Arabs' plot got shafted by individual Brit soldiers
and non-coms (Source: Brit soldiers and non-coms). As Alfie put it, air you
are facing a boatload of refuges, people just like yourself, and you're told
to send them back to sea to protect a bunch of rag heads who wear skirts so
they can **** in the street! Sure, and me eyesight failed to notice anyone
disembarking. And when we were told to give up our weapons and ammo to the
same ragheads so they could slaughter these people we did even tho many were
"stolen" by the immigrants first if ye get me drift. Nor did we toss
grenades into any courtyards full of Arabs - we handed them over as nice as
you'd please! That's me story and I'm stickin too it! Even with 1000s of
Alfies to was touch and go and the Jews might have lost were it not for
"atoomic bombs" Try Michners(sp?) "The Source" for some insights into that.

How do you know the identities of the people you're getting the DNA from
after 3,000 years?


Vito wrote:
I'm sorry, I misunderstood your question. They don't test people who lived
3000 years ago. They test a statistically sound number of people who's
ancestors have lived in and around Palistine for many generations.

Uh huh. And we assign scientific accuracy to peoples' stating "Yes, my
ancestors have lived in this area for many generations."

Phooey! My ancestors have lived in the U.S. since before it was the U.S.
and guess what... doesn't change the *fact* that we grabbed it from the
Indians!


.... If the
Moses myth were true we'd find that people who descended from Moses'
invaders were in a different gene pool than those from areas that were not
invaded and that this pool would resemble those from Baghdad and/or Egypt.

After 3,000 years? Your knowledge of genetics needs a little brushing up.



That's not what was found. Instead the researchers, Israelis BTW, found no
statistical evidence that one gene pool replace another IAW the 5th book.
So, if Moses ever existed, and there is scant evidence either way, then his
followers were few and were simply absorbed into the area's indigineous gene
pool.

It sounds to me like this TV show you're quoting has a bit of an agenda,
and has skipped over quite a lot of scientific vertity trying to "prove"
the point. Without testing DNA from archeological forensics (and then
the question becomes one of "who is really in that particular grave")
there is no basis for comparing modern populations with ancient groups.




BTW in ancient warfare it was extremely uncommon to kill all the
defeated people. Where do you think slave girls & concubines came from?


But in this case God told them to kill off the locals. But DNA says they
didn't so the Moses myth is wrong on that score.

I think your Moses myth is as garbled as your genetics... Moses directed
his warriors, when victorious, to dash out the enemies babies brains on
the rocks... grisly enough but hardly evidence they attempted
genocide... which is never 100% successful anyway, and they would have
kept women slaves also... which would lead to genetic mixing, oh no!


Well actually no, I have a DD and try to keep up with discoveries, but
recent Discovery and History Channel essays are pretty factual and easily
researched.

If so, then you are massively misunderstanding the basics of DNA
fingerprinting. I suspect that you are freely interpreting part of
whatever it is they said.


... But they were enough different from Christian Europeans
to be expelled and to suffer pogroms.


There you go disembling again.

Oh right. The pogroms are just a minor little unimportant side issue...
unless you get caught in one..

...That's true, but Euro-Jews were and are more
similar to other Euros than they are to Jews from , say, Ethiopia.

.....meaning what?

Are you trying to claim that only 100% simon-pure Semites should be
allowed any claim whatever to land in Israel?


... and that European Jews immigrated into Palestine after
ww2 to establish a Jewish state

Slightly true but ignores 90% of what really happened to establish Israel.


No, it's entirely true. There'd be no Israel were it not for that influx of
Euro culture.

???
???

Did you just get home from a hell of a party?


.... Remember Sharon
defiling the mosque to derail the last peace plan?

Horse hockey. The ongoing intifada was planned & scheduled before Sharon
visited the Temple Mount, which hardly qualifies as "defiling" a mosque.




What really happened?

You don't don't know, do you?

You seem to consistantly take the most extreme pro-Palestinian slant,
what's up with that?

.... Arabs' plot got shafted by individual Brit soldiers
and non-coms (Source: Brit soldiers and non-coms). As Alfie put it, air you
are facing a boatload of refuges, people just like yourself, and you're told
to send them back to sea to protect a bunch of rag heads who wear skirts so
they can **** in the street! Sure, and me eyesight failed to notice anyone
disembarking. And when we were told to give up our weapons and ammo to the
same ragheads so they could slaughter these people we did even tho many were
"stolen" by the immigrants first if ye get me drift. Nor did we toss
grenades into any courtyards full of Arabs - we handed them over as nice as
you'd please! That's me story and I'm stickin too it! Even with 1000s of
Alfies to was touch and go and the Jews might have lost were it not for
"atoomic bombs" Try Michners(sp?) "The Source" for some insights into that.


Are you saying that the British gave direct military assistance to the Jews?

You really have no clue, apparently you think any wild fiction you can
invent should be given credibility. And go re-read 'The Source' because
what you've said bears no semblance whatever to the book... nor to reality.

DSK

DSK wrote:



I think your Moses myth is as garbled as your genetics... Moses directed
his warriors, when victorious, to dash out the enemies babies brains on
the rocks... grisly enough but hardly evidence they attempted
genocide... which is never 100% successful anyway,

There have been a few cases of true genocide in history. But really, the
point is that you do not need to kill very last man woman and child to
accomplish genocide. You simply have to kill so many that their cultural
and social (and genetic) identity is lost.

Cheers

Nav wrote:
There have been a few cases of true genocide in history.

Yep. Some on purpose, some accidental...


... But really, the
point is that you do not need to kill very last man woman and child to
accomplish genocide. You simply have to kill so many that their cultural
and social (and genetic) identity is lost.

Agreed again... although with DNA fingerprinting, the genetic identity
would take many many generations to be truly lost.

DSK