Veteran's Day; Thanks Guys
 

I've waited all day and no one seems to rememder.

I do! Remember the "Twenty one Dollars a Day, Once a month!" That's
what we were paid for putting our lives on the line against the Jap &
Germans.

So all you people who have served in the Armed Forces; THANKS from one
of your own

AND: I've poured, "I'LL DRINK TO THAT!"

Ole Thom

you're welcome.

From: (Thom Stewart)
Date: 11/11/2004 9:52 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

I've waited all day and no one seems to rememder.

I do! Remember the "Twenty one Dollars a Day, Once a month!" That's
what we were paid for putting our lives on the line against the Jap &
Germans.

So all you people who have served in the Armed Forces; THANKS from one
of your own

AND: I've poured, "I'LL DRINK TO THAT!"

Ole Thom

Where ya been, Jax?

SV


"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
you're welcome.

From: (Thom Stewart)
Date: 11/11/2004 9:52 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

I've waited all day and no one seems to rememder.

I do! Remember the "Twenty one Dollars a Day, Once a month!"
That's
what we were paid for putting our lives on the line against the Jap
&
Germans.

So all you people who have served in the Armed Forces; THANKS from
one
of your own

AND: I've poured, "I'LL DRINK TO THAT!"

Ole Thom

I've waited all day and no one seems to rememder.

I remembered on the train boards where people seem to care.
SAILLOCO
Viet Nam '66'
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"Trains are a winter sport"

"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
I've waited all day and no one seems to rememder.

I do! Remember the "Twenty one Dollars a Day, Once a month!" That's
what we were paid for putting our lives on the line against the Jap &
Germans.

So all you people who have served in the Armed Forces; THANKS from one
of your own

AND: I've poured, "I'LL DRINK TO THAT!"

Ole Thom

Unless you live in a cave and don't have an access to a calendar or don't
live in the western world it's hard not to remember it's veteran's day,
Thom. We get a paid holiday (today), the union-sponsored veteran's group set
up their table at the front door to our plant, handing out something to
vets. I guess some of us might have the same problem that the folks who
sport the "support our troops" stickers on the bumpers of their large SUV's
(aah, the irony) How do you honor vets without appearing to be pro-war?

John Cairns

The compromise between good and evil is never good. When dealing with evil,
war (force) is the only solution. Otherwise don't deal with evil. Your
solutions would bring people like Noriega, Saddam Hussien, Hitler(remember
Chamberlain and appeasement), Stalin, Il Jung and others into greater and
greater power. Negotiate with the devil and lose!

Gilligan, a veteran


OzOne wrote in message ...
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 21:39:38 GMT, "John Cairns"
scribbled thusly:

) How do you honor vets without appearing to be pro-war?

John Cairns

Difficult eh.
Too many people seem to think that they can't be separated but IMHO,
supporting and thanking those who suffered, died, or just turned out
in no way condones the action of the Govt that may have moved them
into that war.

My grandfather was a highly decorated vet of 3 wars.
He always maintained that war should be avoided at all cost and that
the decision to go to war should be made by those who had actually
been there, that they wouldn't be as eager as those who've never seen
the carnage, and would go to far greater lenghth to pursue peaceful
solutions.





Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

Here is the error in your thinking:

http://www.importanceofphilosophy.co...ompromise.html

Unless you have no principles.


OzOne wrote in message ...
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 21:39:38 GMT, "John Cairns"
scribbled thusly:

) How do you honor vets without appearing to be pro-war?

John Cairns

Difficult eh.
Too many people seem to think that they can't be separated but IMHO,
supporting and thanking those who suffered, died, or just turned out
in no way condones the action of the Govt that may have moved them
into that war.

My grandfather was a highly decorated vet of 3 wars.
He always maintained that war should be avoided at all cost and that
the decision to go to war should be made by those who had actually
been there, that they wouldn't be as eager as those who've never seen
the carnage, and would go to far greater lenghth to pursue peaceful
solutions.





Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

OzOne wrote in message
All very well until you start to look at the reasons for some of the
wars..probably most of them.
People wanting back what was theirs at some time in the past

With that premise in mind ... it would be wise to follow the path of total
genocide when at war.
We have been pitted and forged to Survive since before recorded history.
We have been taught by nature that to the victor go the spoils... that
history is written by the winners.

Now in the blink of an eye you wish to change a millennia of reinforcement
by suggesting that altruism should overtake basic survivalism?

Don't Hold Your Breath..... unless you care not for oxygen for the next 100
thousand years.

CM

Thanks Dad, thanks Grandpop, thanks Uncle(s) Bud, Nicolas, Jim, Ray, thanks
cousin(s) Bill, Dwight.
Thanks to all my ancestor-soldiers, for being there from the beginning, and
staking out our own little piece of this insanity.
Thanks for telling Europe's nobility to bugger off. Thanks for trying to set
things right with the slaves even though you weren't slave owners. Thanks
for making us proud everytime America, right or wrong, placed the burden on
you.
And thanks again to you Dad, for making me understand when I was 18, that if
I was chosen to go to Viet Nam that I would be fighting for my family's
piece of America, and not for all the assholes who don't deserve to be here.
And finally, thanks to you West Point, for dangling the words 'Dulce et
Decorum est Pro Patria Mori' in my face and then turning me away for a heart
murmur.
Scout

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock--kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through the sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs,
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots,
But limped on, bood-shod. All went lame, all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
of tired outstripped five nines that dropped behind.

Gas! GAS! Quick, boys!--An ecstasy of fumbling
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time,
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime.--
Dim through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea I saw him drowning.
In all my dreams before my helpless sight
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin,
If you could hear at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth corrupted lungs
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile incurable sores on innocent tongues,--
My friend you would not say with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old lie: Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori.
- Wilfred Owen

Thanks Scout;

You've grasped the moment that signifies the years of veterns service.

Thanks again!

Ole Thom

It amazes me some here do not undertand the true cost of what veterans gave
them.

Joe


oh, they understand alright. They just claim ignorance because they personally
are not up to the effort.

You and say they are just chicken****, while they attempt to claim they are
some jetsam on the moral high ground.

guess which one the women prefer as the fathers of their children?

He knew that the only folks that benefit
from war are the politicians, generals, and industrialists.
And their sycophants.

It appears you don't not know what a sycophant is. You might wish to drop that
word from your analogy.

Thank YOU Thom!
Did you know Wilfred Owen was killed in battle not long after writing that
poem?
I believe he was 25 years old.
Scout


"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
Thanks Scout;

You've grasped the moment that signifies the years of veterns service.

Thanks again!

Ole Thom

"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
I've waited all day and no one seems to rememder.


Many of us remembered. Many of us are *very* aware of the sacrifices that
have been made on our behalf.


It's one thing to watch films like "The Longest Day", - it's another thing
to actually visit the beaches where the allies landed. I nearly vomited
when I saw the cliffs at Arramaches. I couldn't believe that young kids
were asked to risk their lives in such circumstances.


Regards


Donal
--

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 07:37:03 +1100, OzOne wrote this crap:


Now lets look at the reasons for WWI


WWI was started by the Serbs, who hired assassins to kill our beloved
leader, Archduke Franz Ferdinand.






Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now!

Heh Horvath... whadda Ya get when you cross a Pollack with a Mexican?

A kid that spray paints it's name on a chain link fence!!

CM

"Horvath" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 07:37:03 +1100, OzOne wrote this crap:


Now lets look at the reasons for WWI


WWI was started by the Serbs, who hired assassins to kill our beloved
leader, Archduke Franz Ferdinand.






Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now!

John,

I really don't no where to start a reply to your post. I know you sure
have history twisted around.

First lets take Lindberg. He warned us and Europe about Hilter and his
strength and was ignored. Did you ever hear of the saying "Peace in our
time"? That was said after Lindberg warning, which Europe didn't want to
hear.

About external forement, my God where have you learned your history. Do
you know how Cuba and the Philippines came into being after the Spanish
American War, Have you any idea at all how just about every nation in
the Middle East came into being after the Turk were defeated in WW1 by
moslem tribe under British leadership. After WW2 the China Communist
came into being with the exception of Taiwan, All the countries of
Europe blame us for losing their colonies. The French were driven out of
North Africa after the Allies defeated the Germans

Have you ever heard of the Truman Doctrine and the Marshall Plan?
The Lendlease Plan, Berlin Airlift, The Formation of the UN, Nato. The
creation of Israel.

John, I've only covered some of our involvement. All non-isolationist

My only comment to you is cure yourself of the myopic view of World
History. You really do seem to be missing a lot.

Ole Thom

In article , OzOne wrote:

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 23:55:35 GMT, "Gilligan"
scribbled thusly:

The compromise between good and evil is never good. When dealing with evil,
war (force) is the only solution. Otherwise don't deal with evil. Your
solutions would bring people like Noriega, Saddam Hussien, Hitler(remember
Chamberlain and appeasement), Stalin, Il Jung and others into greater and
greater power. Negotiate with the devil and lose!

Gilligan, a veteran


Interesting isn't it...
Noriega was installed by the US
Saddam was a friend of the US
Hitler was trying to right what the Germans saw as a wrong when they
lost land to Poland and France after the Treaty of Versailles presided
over by Britain, France, Italy and the US

My knowledge of Euro history is pretty ordinary, but didn't Germany
take most of the land it lost at the end of WW1 from France in the war
of 1870?

Seems to me it was the reparations that led to massive inflation and
economic chaos that led to the rise of Hitler more than the loss of
territory. Even the reparations were just playing by the same rules
Germany had used itself, previously.

As for wars, dunno. Basically the Western powers can economically ruin
a country without taking military action. Is this preferable?

PDW

Thom,

Lindberg was was a non-interventionist. If we had listened to him, we would
have been much worse off..

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
John,

I really don't no where to start a reply to your post. I know you sure
have history twisted around.

First lets take Lindberg. He warned us and Europe about Hilter and his
strength and was ignored. Did you ever hear of the saying "Peace in our
time"? That was said after Lindberg warning, which Europe didn't want to
hear.

About external forement, my God where have you learned your history. Do
you know how Cuba and the Philippines came into being after the Spanish
American War, Have you any idea at all how just about every nation in
the Middle East came into being after the Turk were defeated in WW1 by
moslem tribe under British leadership. After WW2 the China Communist
came into being with the exception of Taiwan, All the countries of
Europe blame us for losing their colonies. The French were driven out of
North Africa after the Allies defeated the Germans

Have you ever heard of the Truman Doctrine and the Marshall Plan?
The Lendlease Plan, Berlin Airlift, The Formation of the UN, Nato. The
creation of Israel.

John, I've only covered some of our involvement. All non-isolationist

My only comment to you is cure yourself of the myopic view of World
History. You really do seem to be missing a lot.

Ole Thom

'The Longest Day' was on yesterday. Ahhh for the good 'ol days, when
WE were right and THEY were wrong, men were men, and ganzy types hid
in the closet.

Scotty


"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
John,

I really don't no where to start a reply to your post. I know you
sure
have history twisted around.

First lets take Lindberg. He warned us and Europe about Hilter and
his
strength and was ignored. Did you ever hear of the saying "Peace in
our
time"? That was said after Lindberg warning, which Europe didn't
want to
hear.

About external forement, my God where have you learned your history.
Do
you know how Cuba and the Philippines came into being after the
Spanish
American War, Have you any idea at all how just about every nation
in
the Middle East came into being after the Turk were defeated in WW1
by
moslem tribe under British leadership. After WW2 the China Communist
came into being with the exception of Taiwan, All the countries of
Europe blame us for losing their colonies. The French were driven
out of
North Africa after the Allies defeated the Germans

Have you ever heard of the Truman Doctrine and the Marshall Plan?
The Lendlease Plan, Berlin Airlift, The Formation of the UN, Nato.
The
creation of Israel.

John, I've only covered some of our involvement. All
non-isolationist

My only comment to you is cure yourself of the myopic view of World
History. You really do seem to be missing a lot.

Ole Thom

Peter Wiley wrote:
My knowledge of Euro history is pretty ordinary, but didn't Germany
take most of the land it lost at the end of WW1 from France in the war
of 1870?

Sure, and much of that was land that France managed to grab during
Napoleon's time, etc etc. Borders are changeable. It's one of the
ongoing problems between nations... for that matter, between states
within nations. For example there are several states borders here in the
US that are defined by rivers, which are constantly removing land from
one side & depositing it on the other, and vice versa. The big question
is, shall we kill people over it?



Seems to me it was the reparations that led to massive inflation and
economic chaos that led to the rise of Hitler more than the loss of
territory. Even the reparations were just playing by the same rules
Germany had used itself, previously.

Yep, that sound pretty close to right to me. Although the stolen land
was part of the Nazi's political sloganeering, as was the "stab in the
back" (their popular theory that Germany didn't really lose WW1).

Shows you what happens when countries try and formulate national policy
of wishful thinking and slogans basd on fantasy.



As for wars, dunno. Basically the Western powers can economically ruin
a country without taking military action. Is this preferable?

Yes. An economy in ruins is better, by definition, than an economy in
ruins with 100,000+ dead and all infrastructure destroyed.

DSK

Scotty is getting ready to pop his cork... here it comes folks... He's
obviously closeted and needs to come out.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...
'The Longest Day' was on yesterday. Ahhh for the good 'ol days, when
WE were right and THEY were wrong, men were men, and ganzy types hid
in the closet.

Scotty


"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
John,

I really don't no where to start a reply to your post. I know you
sure
have history twisted around.

First lets take Lindberg. He warned us and Europe about Hilter and
his
strength and was ignored. Did you ever hear of the saying "Peace in
our
time"? That was said after Lindberg warning, which Europe didn't
want to
hear.

About external forement, my God where have you learned your history.
Do
you know how Cuba and the Philippines came into being after the
Spanish
American War, Have you any idea at all how just about every nation
in
the Middle East came into being after the Turk were defeated in WW1
by
moslem tribe under British leadership. After WW2 the China Communist
came into being with the exception of Taiwan, All the countries of
Europe blame us for losing their colonies. The French were driven
out of
North Africa after the Allies defeated the Germans

Have you ever heard of the Truman Doctrine and the Marshall Plan?
The Lendlease Plan, Berlin Airlift, The Formation of the UN, Nato.
The
creation of Israel.

John, I've only covered some of our involvement. All
non-isolationist

My only comment to you is cure yourself of the myopic view of World
History. You really do seem to be missing a lot.

Ole Thom

"Thom Stewart"
wrote in message ...

John,

I really don't know where to start a reply to your post. I know you sure
have history twisted around.

First lets take Lindbergh. He warned us and Europe about Hitler and his
strength and was ignored. Did you ever hear of the saying "Peace in our
time"? That was said after Lindbergh warning, which Europe didn't want to
hear.

http://www.traces.org/charleslindbergh.html

Your hero, Lindbergh. All of this stuff has been in the public domain for
years. You must be the last person on the planet that didn't know about
this.

About external forement, my God where have you learned your history. Do
you know how Cuba and the Philippines came into being after the Spanish
American War,

Not exactly sure what this had to do with my original post. Oh, I see. Well,
let me explain briefly. The Cubans and Filipinos didn't revolt against the
Spanish, we occupied those countries. So you consider Cuba to be a success?
There are a LOT of Cubans in south Florida that would disagree with you. As
far as the Philippines go, you are probably completely clueless about any of
this, so you can ignore the title, "Imperial Amnesia", which would imply
that you knew some of this at one time or another.

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/54a/index-a.html

Really, Thom, all of this information is at your fingertips, literally.


Have you ever heard of the Truman Doctrine and the Marshall Plan?
The Lendlease Plan, Berlin Airlift, The Formation of the UN, Nato. The
creation of Israel.

When you comment on a post, it helps if you leave some of the original, if
only so you don't forget what was written. Try this:

"In the 20's, under 3 successive Republican administration, the US
followed a policy of isolationism and non-engagement, as did a clear
majority of the population."

Part of my original post, I might have added, the isolationist sentiments of
a majority of Americans continued up until Pearl Harbor, fortunately the
Roosevelt administration("Lend Lease"), didn't share those sentiments.

Berlin airlift, formation of the UN, the Marshall Plan, formation of NATO
all occurred during the Truman administration


My only comment to you is cure yourself of the myopic view of World
History. You really do seem to be missing a lot.


It appears that I've forgotten more than you ever knew.


Ole Thom

He's
obviously closeted and needs to come out.


It seems to me that Scotty has been pretty open about his gayness. Doesn't
explain the Siedlemann though.

RB

"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
John,

I really don't no where to start a reply to your post. I know you sure
have history twisted around.

First lets take Lindberg. He warned us and Europe about Hilter and his
strength and was ignored. Did you ever hear of the saying "Peace in our
time"? That was said after Lindberg warning, which Europe didn't want to
hear.

Thom,
There is a very big difference between Hitler and Saddam.

Hitler invaded other countries *without* US permission.

Saddam sought US permission before launching any attacks.



Regards


Donal
--

Reading Ganz talking about 'veterans' of the military is kinda like getting
a thank you note from a mugger. It's a closed circle Ganz......we're in
it....you're not.

M.

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Thom,

Lindberg was was a non-interventionist. If we had listened to him, we
would
have been much worse off..

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
John,

I really don't no where to start a reply to your post. I know you sure
have history twisted around.

First lets take Lindberg. He warned us and Europe about Hilter and his
strength and was ignored. Did you ever hear of the saying "Peace in our
time"? That was said after Lindberg warning, which Europe didn't want to
hear.

About external forement, my God where have you learned your history. Do
you know how Cuba and the Philippines came into being after the Spanish
American War, Have you any idea at all how just about every nation in
the Middle East came into being after the Turk were defeated in WW1 by
moslem tribe under British leadership. After WW2 the China Communist
came into being with the exception of Taiwan, All the countries of
Europe blame us for losing their colonies. The French were driven out of
North Africa after the Allies defeated the Germans

Have you ever heard of the Truman Doctrine and the Marshall Plan?
The Lendlease Plan, Berlin Airlift, The Formation of the UN, Nato. The
creation of Israel.

John, I've only covered some of our involvement. All non-isolationist

My only comment to you is cure yourself of the myopic view of World
History. You really do seem to be missing a lot.

Ole Thom

**** you Mikey. You wouldn't know your ass from a hole in the ground.
If by closed circle, you mean you're in a group of chicken**** faggots, then
I agree with you. Please stay in your closed circle.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Michael" wrote in message
...
Reading Ganz talking about 'veterans' of the military is kinda like
getting
a thank you note from a mugger. It's a closed circle Ganz......we're in
it....you're not.

M.

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Thom,

Lindberg was was a non-interventionist. If we had listened to him, we
would
have been much worse off..

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
John,

I really don't no where to start a reply to your post. I know you sure
have history twisted around.

First lets take Lindberg. He warned us and Europe about Hilter and his
strength and was ignored. Did you ever hear of the saying "Peace in our
time"? That was said after Lindberg warning, which Europe didn't want
to
hear.

About external forement, my God where have you learned your history. Do
you know how Cuba and the Philippines came into being after the Spanish
American War, Have you any idea at all how just about every nation in
the Middle East came into being after the Turk were defeated in WW1 by
moslem tribe under British leadership. After WW2 the China Communist
came into being with the exception of Taiwan, All the countries of
Europe blame us for losing their colonies. The French were driven out
of
North Africa after the Allies defeated the Germans

Have you ever heard of the Truman Doctrine and the Marshall Plan?
The Lendlease Plan, Berlin Airlift, The Formation of the UN, Nato. The
creation of Israel.

John, I've only covered some of our involvement. All non-isolationist

My only comment to you is cure yourself of the myopic view of World
History. You really do seem to be missing a lot.

Ole Thom

Forgot to take your meds again, Jonathan?


"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ...
**** you Mikey. You wouldn't know your ass from a hole in the ground.
If by closed circle, you mean you're in a group of chicken**** faggots, then
I agree with you. Please stay in your closed circle.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Michael" wrote in message
...
Reading Ganz talking about 'veterans' of the military is kinda like
getting
a thank you note from a mugger. It's a closed circle Ganz......we're in
it....you're not.

M.

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Thom,

Lindberg was was a non-interventionist. If we had listened to him, we
would
have been much worse off..

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
John,

I really don't no where to start a reply to your post. I know you sure
have history twisted around.

First lets take Lindberg. He warned us and Europe about Hilter and his
strength and was ignored. Did you ever hear of the saying "Peace in our
time"? That was said after Lindberg warning, which Europe didn't want
to
hear.

About external forement, my God where have you learned your history. Do
you know how Cuba and the Philippines came into being after the Spanish
American War, Have you any idea at all how just about every nation in
the Middle East came into being after the Turk were defeated in WW1 by
moslem tribe under British leadership. After WW2 the China Communist
came into being with the exception of Taiwan, All the countries of
Europe blame us for losing their colonies. The French were driven out
of
North Africa after the Allies defeated the Germans

Have you ever heard of the Truman Doctrine and the Marshall Plan?
The Lendlease Plan, Berlin Airlift, The Formation of the UN, Nato. The
creation of Israel.

John, I've only covered some of our involvement. All non-isolationist

My only comment to you is cure yourself of the myopic view of World
History. You really do seem to be missing a lot.

Ole Thom

John,

I'd like to add a foot note;
Do you know where the Lindberg's lived when they returned from Europe?
They settled on the north shore of Long Island.
Oyster Bay Township. Their children's cook was my Aunt. Lindy and Anne
flew the first route that later became PanAm routes. Their home gave
Lindy good access to Gruman aircraft and Republic aircraft factories
where they used him as a consultant

Cubans in the USA weren't there until Castro took power, long after Cuba
was free from Spain. John, those people didn't flee to Spain, did they.
Good old USA

Your Hartford article open in its first paragraph to it being a
un-validate information

I hope you aren't to put out if I'm not impressed by your reply.

Ole Thom

Forgot to give your boyfriend a blowjob?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
...
Forgot to take your meds again, Jonathan?


"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
**** you Mikey. You wouldn't know your ass from a hole in the ground.
If by closed circle, you mean you're in a group of chicken**** faggots,
then
I agree with you. Please stay in your closed circle.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Michael" wrote in message
...
Reading Ganz talking about 'veterans' of the military is kinda like
getting
a thank you note from a mugger. It's a closed circle Ganz......we're
in
it....you're not.

M.

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Thom,

Lindberg was was a non-interventionist. If we had listened to him, we
would
have been much worse off..

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
John,

I really don't no where to start a reply to your post. I know you
sure
have history twisted around.

First lets take Lindberg. He warned us and Europe about Hilter and
his
strength and was ignored. Did you ever hear of the saying "Peace in
our
time"? That was said after Lindberg warning, which Europe didn't
want
to
hear.

About external forement, my God where have you learned your history.
Do
you know how Cuba and the Philippines came into being after the
Spanish
American War, Have you any idea at all how just about every nation
in
the Middle East came into being after the Turk were defeated in WW1
by
moslem tribe under British leadership. After WW2 the China Communist
came into being with the exception of Taiwan, All the countries of
Europe blame us for losing their colonies. The French were driven
out
of
North Africa after the Allies defeated the Germans

Have you ever heard of the Truman Doctrine and the Marshall Plan?
The Lendlease Plan, Berlin Airlift, The Formation of the UN, Nato.
The
creation of Israel.

John, I've only covered some of our involvement. All
non-isolationist

My only comment to you is cure yourself of the myopic view of World
History. You really do seem to be missing a lot.

Ole Thom

In article , DSK
wrote:

Peter Wiley wrote:
My knowledge of Euro history is pretty ordinary, but didn't Germany
take most of the land it lost at the end of WW1 from France in the war
of 1870?

Sure, and much of that was land that France managed to grab during
Napoleon's time, etc etc. Borders are changeable. It's one of the
ongoing problems between nations... for that matter, between states
within nations. For example there are several states borders here in the
US that are defined by rivers, which are constantly removing land from
one side & depositing it on the other, and vice versa. The big question
is, shall we kill people over it?

No, not these days :-) We're having an argument with East Timor ATM
over a sea bed boundary. Not the least worried about them attacking us
of course.

Seems to me it was the reparations that led to massive inflation and
economic chaos that led to the rise of Hitler more than the loss of
territory. Even the reparations were just playing by the same rules
Germany had used itself, previously.

Yep, that sound pretty close to right to me. Although the stolen land
was part of the Nazi's political sloganeering, as was the "stab in the
back" (their popular theory that Germany didn't really lose WW1).

Well they didn't lose militarily, it was a stalemate. They got starved
into submission which is evidence that sufficiently rigorous economic
sanctions backed by military force to enforce them can work.

Shows you what happens when countries try and formulate national policy
of wishful thinking and slogans basd on fantasy.



As for wars, dunno. Basically the Western powers can economically ruin
a country without taking military action. Is this preferable?

Yes. An economy in ruins is better, by definition, than an economy in
ruins with 100,000+ dead and all infrastructure destroyed.

Yeah, my feeling as well. However we have the example of Hussein using
the 'food for oil' exemption from economic sanctions to bribe other
nation-state leaders while simultaneously starving his people of food &
medicine and using the resultant deaths et al to convince people like
Donal et al that it was all the fault of the Western powers. That's a
good example of what happens if you're ruthless enough.

PDW

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:54:07 -0800, "Jon-boy Ganz"
wrote this crap:

I Forgot to give your boyfriend a blowjob?


You have to gay up everything, don't you, Jon-boy?






Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now!

"Horvath" wrote in message
...
I Forgot to give your boyfriend a blowjob! Again!




Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now!

Peter Wiley wrote:
No, not these days :-) We're having an argument with East Timor ATM
over a sea bed boundary. Not the least worried about them attacking us
of course.


No, at least not officially. But then that doesn't seem to be in style
these days anyway. Plenty of whackos with the potential to become
suicide bombers in Nusutengarra though.



Seems to me it was the reparations that led to massive inflation and
economic chaos that led to the rise of Hitler more than the loss of
territory. Even the reparations were just playing by the same rules
Germany had used itself, previously.

Yep, that sound pretty close to right to me. Although the stolen land
was part of the Nazi's political sloganeering, as was the "stab in the
back" (their popular theory that Germany didn't really lose WW1).


Well they didn't lose militarily, it was a stalemate. They got starved
into submission which is evidence that sufficiently rigorous economic
sanctions backed by military force to enforce them can work.

I disagree somewhat. The German armies in the field had not been
decisively defeated, that is true. But they had been pushed back from
the Hindenburg line and only managed to prevent an Allied breakthrough
at high cost. Their manpower was waning dramatically (especially with
regard to bringing up trained reserves) and their supplies were running
out. Mostly they were being starved into submission. But an army that is
starving cannot fight.




As for wars, dunno. Basically the Western powers can economically ruin
a country without taking military action. Is this preferable?

Yes. An economy in ruins is better, by definition, than an economy in
ruins with 100,000+ dead and all infrastructure destroyed.


Yeah, my feeling as well. However we have the example of Hussein using
the 'food for oil' exemption from economic sanctions to bribe other
nation-state leaders while simultaneously starving his people of food &
medicine and using the resultant deaths et al to convince people like
Donal et al that it was all the fault of the Western powers. That's a
good example of what happens if you're ruthless enough.

yep... utter ruthlessness is hard to beat, and hard to believe for a lot
of people. IMHO Saddam Hussein's gov't is a classic example of a
revolution gone wrong... happens in history more often than ones that go
right, perhaps. The irony is that we (the US mainly, but also the
western powers) supported him against the obvious danger of Iran and now
we have toppled him which mostly helps Iran.

DSK

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article , DSK
wrote:

Peter Wiley wrote:
My knowledge of Euro history is pretty ordinary, but didn't Germany
take most of the land it lost at the end of WW1 from France in the war
of 1870?

Sure, and much of that was land that France managed to grab during
Napoleon's time, etc etc. Borders are changeable. It's one of the
ongoing problems between nations... for that matter, between states
within nations. For example there are several states borders here in the
US that are defined by rivers, which are constantly removing land from
one side & depositing it on the other, and vice versa. The big question
is, shall we kill people over it?

No, not these days :-) We're having an argument with East Timor ATM
over a sea bed boundary. Not the least worried about them attacking us
of course.

Seems to me it was the reparations that led to massive inflation and
economic chaos that led to the rise of Hitler more than the loss of
territory. Even the reparations were just playing by the same rules
Germany had used itself, previously.

Yep, that sound pretty close to right to me. Although the stolen land
was part of the Nazi's political sloganeering, as was the "stab in the
back" (their popular theory that Germany didn't really lose WW1).

Well they didn't lose militarily, it was a stalemate. They got starved
into submission which is evidence that sufficiently rigorous economic
sanctions backed by military force to enforce them can work.

Shows you what happens when countries try and formulate national policy
of wishful thinking and slogans basd on fantasy.



As for wars, dunno. Basically the Western powers can economically ruin
a country without taking military action. Is this preferable?

Yes. An economy in ruins is better, by definition, than an economy in
ruins with 100,000+ dead and all infrastructure destroyed.

Yeah, my feeling as well. However we have the example of Hussein using
the 'food for oil' exemption from economic sanctions to bribe other
nation-state leaders while simultaneously starving his people of food &
medicine and using the resultant deaths et al to convince people like
Donal et al that it was all the fault of the Western powers.

Your inability to see reality is truly impressive.

*Before* the invasion, I said that there was no evidence to support Bush's
wild claims about WMD.

*Before* the invasion, I said that a war would create MORE terrorists - not
less.

Can you give us an example of a forecast that you made that has turned out
to be correct?
If you cannot, then you should consider the possibility that you have no
idea at all about the subject.

That's a
good example of what happens if you're ruthless enough.

Saddam killed 300,000 in 30 years.
100,000 have died as a result of the war in little more than a year. Would
you say that Bush is more ruthless than Saddam?

I am constantly amazed by man's inability to learn from history.


Regards


Donal
--

--
"Jonathan Loser Ganz" wrote
**** you Mikey.
If by closed circle, you mean you're in a group of chicken****
faggots, then
can I be the pivot man?






"Michael" wrote in message
...
Reading Ganz talking about 'veterans' of the military is kinda
like
getting
a thank you note from a mugger. It's a closed circle
Ganz......we're in
it....you're not.

M.

In article ,
Scott Vernon wrote:
If by closed circle, you mean you're in a group of chicken****
faggots, then can I be the pivot man?


--
Jonathan Ganz (j gan z @ $ail no w.c=o=m)
http://www.sailnow.com
"If there's no wind, row."

"Michael" wrote in message
...
Side question? When is Neville Chamberlain day?

Same as groundhog day. If Neville sees Hitler's shadow, Poland belongs to
Germany for another six weeks.
Scout

I always wondered if any historians figured out the end of WWII coincided
with the day Poland regained it's freedom from Russia. That being the
ostensible reason given for the start of WWII. Not the longest war in
history but certainly the most odd in terms of how fought. Five years of
intense battle and 40 more years of economic warfare with the Poles amongst
others bearing most of the non economic burden. How they MUST value
their freedom after all those years as socialist slaves.

One of the two great unanswered questions of war. The other being did
Texas lose it's Lone Star Republic rights because of the civil war?

M.



"Scout" wrote in message
...
"Michael" wrote in message
...
Side question? When is Neville Chamberlain day?

Same as groundhog day. If Neville sees Hitler's shadow, Poland belongs to
Germany for another six weeks.
Scout

Michael wrote:
I always wondered if any historians figured out the end of WWII coincided
with the day Poland regained it's freedom from Russia.

???

Where do you get these ideas? If that's the case, then WW2 is still
going on because North Korea is as much a Russian client state as ever,
and Cuba became one well after the "end" of WW2 if you don't count
Poland; but if you do count Poland then it's occupied territory now.
Maybe the Germans should invade North Korea and Cuba, thus ending the
war. We can't do it for them because with regard to WW2, we are Russia's
allies.




... That being the
ostensible reason given for the start of WWII. Not the longest war in
history but certainly the most odd in terms of how fought.

Hardly. I suggest you look up some of the previous European dynastic
wars, for example the War of the Spanish Succession... now there were
some complex webs to untangle.


... Five years of
intense battle and 40 more years of economic warfare with the Poles amongst
others bearing most of the non economic burden. How they MUST value
their freedom after all those years as socialist slaves.

Why don't you go there and find out? I have a number of Polish friends
including a couple who just moved back because they think (with some
good reasons) that their children's future is brighter there than here.


One of the two great unanswered questions of war. The other being did
Texas lose it's Lone Star Republic rights because of the civil war?

No more so than any other state. The War of Northern Aggression settled
the issue of state's rights under the Constitution... there aren't any.
Next I suppose we should look at the question of individual rights... no
wait, let's not...

DSK