DSK wrote:


I think ya got that one backwards. The Moors overran Spain in the early
700s and battled Charlemagne's grandfather at Tours in 732. By the time
the Carolingian Renaissance was under way, Charlemagne was fighting them
south of the Pyrenees. The Crusades didn't start until more than three
hundred years later, when Pope Urban cried out against the infidel, a
classic political red herring, and the crowd roared "Deus Le Volt"
(trans: the batteries in my Walkman are dead)

Thanks Doug, my knowledge of history in that area leaves something to be desired.

Cheers
Marty

Martin Baxter wrote:
Thanks Doug, my knowledge of history in that area leaves something to be
desired.

Mine too... one of my goals in learning Spanish is to read about some of
the history involved.

Regards
Doug King

DSK wrote:

Martin Baxter wrote:

Thanks Doug, my knowledge of history in that area leaves something to
be desired.


Mine too... one of my goals in learning Spanish is to read about some of
the history involved.

Regards
Doug King


Did a bit of reading last night, turns out the Crusades analogy is not so bad. The first Crusade was relatively
successful, the objective was reached ('liberating' Jerusalem). The Second Crusade captured some more land, and shamelessly
sacked Constantinople along the way. The last three Crusades were pretty much a bust and in the long run most of the territory fell
back to the Saracens.

The one great legacy of the Crusades was the implementation of system of organized taxation, a lofty goal for the GOP (remember that's how this
arabesque got started).

Cheers
Marty

On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 10:01:05 -0800, Jonathan Ganz wrote:


He got more votes against a sitting president than any other candidate in
history.

Uh, he got more votes than any other candidate ever, except one. ;-(

Martin Baxter wrote:
Did a bit of reading last night, turns out the Crusades analogy is not
so bad. The first Crusade was relatively
successful, the objective was reached ('liberating' Jerusalem). The
Second Crusade captured some more land, and shamelessly
sacked Constantinople along the way. The last three Crusades were pretty
much a bust and in the long run most of the territory fell
back to the Saracens.

The one great legacy of the Crusades was the implementation of system of
organized taxation, a lofty goal for the GOP (remember that's how this
arabesque got started).

groan

But seriously, the Crusades are a good analogy for present times...
maybe those who don't know history really are condemned to repeat it.
The Crusade served the European princes & kings fairly well at some
secondary political goals, such as sending troublesome younger sons far
away; also furthered the goals of the old Mediterranean trading powers,
and introduced fractional reserve banking. Double entry accounting was
invented somewhere in there too.

A man named Steve Runciman has written several good books on the Crusades.

IIRC the First Crusade was relatively straighforward. They succeeded in
capturing Jerusalem and a fair amount of territory (thus giving those
younger sons some area to rule) but it was 'just barely' and they never
established self-supporting principalities. Just about the time these
Crusader principalities got on their feet economically, and could
develop reasonable trade relationships with neighboring Arab
territories, a new wave of belligerent Crusaders arrived and knocked
over the applecart.

Crusaders that returned to Europe brought with them new technology and
new tastes, and a much greater knowledge of the world around them. The
Arabs which had overrun the Hellenic empires, inheritors of Alexander
the Great, had a much greater familiarity with classical & ancient
knowledge. This opened the door, several generations down the road, for
the Renaissance.

The crusading era ended with Saint Louis the Pious, (Louis Xth IIRC) who
was blatantly delusional and a one-man military strategic disaster.
Drawing the parallels to modern times is best left as an exercise for
studious!

Regards
Doug King

In article ,
Scott Vernon wrote:

"Jonathan Loser Ganz" wrote

He got more votes against a sitting president than any other
candidate
in history.


AND LOST !!!! he lost Ganz, you lost, get over it.

Keep shouting... it makes you look even more stupid if that's
possible.

--
Jonathan Ganz (j gan z @ $ail no w.c=o=m)
http://www.sailnow.com
"If there's no wind, row."

While you are apologizing, shouldn't you also mention your cynical (but
vacuous) notes posted throughout the year repeatedly bashing my Mac 26M?

Jim

Jonathan Ganz wrote:
I apologize.

I apologize to the right-wing and to Christian fundamentalists of our
country. I was wrong to presume to believe that a majority of
Americans believe in truth and justice for all our citizens, for the
disenfranchised, for minorities, for the elderly who contributed all
of their lives to our great land, for the young women of this country,
who may soon have their right of privacy severely restrictedin the
name of religion, for the poor in this country, who stuggle every day
to put food in their children's mouths, pay the rent, and keep the
heat on, and for the millions of Americans, children and adults, who
have no health insurance.

I apologize for believing that the owning a gun should be a priviledge
not a right, and that owning a semi-automatic weapon is antithetical
to a modern and free society.

I apologize for believing that the right to speak freely and in a
public forum should not be abridged, neither in times of peace nor in
times of war. I apologize to the Bush administration for believing
that we should not be beholden to foreign governments, all of whom are
oppressing their own people, for oil regardless of how much money a
few rich people might lose in the short term.

I apologize for believing that there is an alternative to destroying
our environment is the price we have to pay for being energy
independent. I apologize for believing that insisting on peace between
Israel and the Palestinians would solve more problems in the region
than attacking a country, devestating their infrastructure, and
occupying their land.

I apologize for believing that we should honor our veterans, our
commitments to them, and support their families, no matter what war
they fought in, even if the war was unpopular. I apologize to the rest
of the world for truly believing that we are more than the arrogant
bully we really are. You deserve better from us, and I apologize for
believing that we are better.

Why am I apologizing? I'm apologizing because it's my fault. I didn't
fight long enough or hard enough to make things right. I am one of the
priviledged in this country. I have a decent job, good health and good
health insurance, generally avery good life, more friends than I
deserve, people who love me, and enough time to enjoy much of what
life can offer. I thought that if I made a modest contribution of
time, money, and passion to the cause of equality and justice for all,
those things that I believe in would come to pass, and that we would
all be better off. I was wrong.

I now know that I may have waited too long to make a difference, to
reverse the slide down the slippery slope of the aborgation of our
civil rights, and away from the national and international obligations
we have as the most powerful nation on Earth to stand up to the
tyranny that exists both here and abroad. I am not sure that I'm
arrogant enough to believe that I can still make a difference, nor am
I sure that any one person can make a difference.

I pledge to try harder. No more apologies.

I apologize for thinking anyone as stupid as you could possible string two
coherent sentences together about any boat, even a piece of crap Mac.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...
While you are apologizing, shouldn't you also mention your cynical (but
vacuous) notes posted throughout the year repeatedly bashing my Mac 26M?

Jim

Jonathan Ganz wrote:
I apologize.

I apologize to the right-wing and to Christian fundamentalists of our
country. I was wrong to presume to believe that a majority of
Americans believe in truth and justice for all our citizens, for the
disenfranchised, for minorities, for the elderly who contributed all
of their lives to our great land, for the young women of this country,
who may soon have their right of privacy severely restrictedin the
name of religion, for the poor in this country, who stuggle every day
to put food in their children's mouths, pay the rent, and keep the
heat on, and for the millions of Americans, children and adults, who
have no health insurance. I apologize for believing that the owning a gun
should be a priviledge
not a right, and that owning a semi-automatic weapon is antithetical
to a modern and free society. I apologize for believing that the right to
speak freely and in a
public forum should not be abridged, neither in times of peace nor in
times of war. I apologize to the Bush administration for believing
that we should not be beholden to foreign governments, all of whom are
oppressing their own people, for oil regardless of how much money a
few rich people might lose in the short term. I apologize for believing
that there is an alternative to destroying
our environment is the price we have to pay for being energy
independent. I apologize for believing that insisting on peace between
Israel and the Palestinians would solve more problems in the region
than attacking a country, devestating their infrastructure, and
occupying their land. I apologize for believing that we should honor our
veterans, our
commitments to them, and support their families, no matter what war
they fought in, even if the war was unpopular. I apologize to the rest
of the world for truly believing that we are more than the arrogant
bully we really are. You deserve better from us, and I apologize for
believing that we are better. Why am I apologizing? I'm apologizing
because it's my fault. I didn't
fight long enough or hard enough to make things right. I am one of the
priviledged in this country. I have a decent job, good health and good
health insurance, generally avery good life, more friends than I
deserve, people who love me, and enough time to enjoy much of what
life can offer. I thought that if I made a modest contribution of
time, money, and passion to the cause of equality and justice for all,
those things that I believe in would come to pass, and that we would
all be better off. I was wrong. I now know that I may have waited too
long to make a difference, to
reverse the slide down the slippery slope of the aborgation of our
civil rights, and away from the national and international obligations
we have as the most powerful nation on Earth to stand up to the
tyranny that exists both here and abroad. I am not sure that I'm
arrogant enough to believe that I can still make a difference, nor am
I sure that any one person can make a difference. I pledge to try harder.
No more apologies.

Jim, why would you care what a loser like ganz thinks about your boat?

Scotty


"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...
While you are apologizing, shouldn't you also mention your cynical
(but
vacuous) notes posted throughout the year repeatedly bashing my Mac
26M?

Jim

Jonathan LOSER Ganz wrote:
I apologize.

I apologize for being a LOSER....

"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...
Jim, why would you care what a loser like me thinks about your boat?

Scotty


"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...
While you are apologizing, shouldn't you also mention your cynical
(but
vacuous) notes posted throughout the year repeatedly bashing my Mac
26M?

Jim

Jonathan LOSER Ganz wrote:
I apologize.

I apologize for being a LOSER....