I'm not saying they didn't pay for it....take a poll, Jon...the majority
of
the US actuially believes that they are going to be taken care of by the
government...Social Security and Medicare...in their old age....they do
not
have savings...they have very little equity in their homes because they
buy
second mortgages and home equity loans...many have gone to reverese
mortgages to get by....

I believe you. This is an education problem that the government should
take a major responsible role for, but that doesn't mean we should
scrap it.

Once again, no culpability.....


Figure what out? That the 6K I shell out of my pocket (my portion of my
emplyer's plan) and the 20% deductible and the co-pay and my check book
pay
the bill? I've got that all figured out.

Figure out that someday you or a loved one will need the gov't
intervention to live. I hope it doesn't happen, but it has happened to
me. It's easy to claim to be self-reliant; it's another to actually be
so.

If it comes to that, then I hope I die....but I doubt it will come to
that....you see, uinstead of a cell phone and vehicles that cost a bundle to
drive, and trading up to a newer bigger house every year, we've pauid all
our bills, own our vehicles and boat free and clear and put our money away
so that that will never happen. My son jokes about Mom's room at his house,
but if I can help it, that will never be. If it comes to that, then at
least there will be something that we've provided to take care of me.


Grand Rapids is not the rest of the country. How
about the homeless?

We are not speaking of those individuals who honestly cannot get by in
life.
They, of course, should be provided for. However, there are many on our
Social Service rosters who take advant5age of the system. I can tell you
of

There are many, but not as many as you think. They said that about
welfare mom's. Sure there are a few who screw the system. That will
always be true. That doesn't mean there is something so wrong with the
system that it can't be fixed. Bush wants to scrap many of the gov't
ensured protections that we have. SS is just one of them he would like
to errode.

about 15 young ladies who are screwing the system as we speak...so if I
know
20, then you probably know a few, too, as does most everyone. And I'm
tired
of opaying for them. I speak monthly with FIA reps here in MI reporting
on
my employee's wages....I know exactly what's going on. Yes, we do have
young ladies that need the assistance, but when I see someone who is
recieiving all kinds of government perks walking down the hall with her
camera cell phone, wearing $200.00 Nikes, and driving an SUV that gets at
best 15 mpg while receiving that assistance it makes my blood boil.

Yes, I'm sick of them two. Why don't you report them?

I have. Repreatedly. It does nop good. I have employees from the Goodwill
OJT that work wonderfully until their contract with OJT is met and then they
start to call in and shirk....so we end up having to terminate them...and
then in 3 months they're hired at the nursing home next door on the same OJT
project...I've seen this happen 3 times in the past 2 years...

Again, most of
the time, the vast majority of the time, people who are being helped
by gov't assistance need that help.

Nope. The government needs to help them not need help. They need to make
them culpable for their actions. They need to learn the consequences of
making bad choices.


Should they be left to starve or freeze to death?

If course not, but we're not talking about them, are we? We're talking
about Joe the Average American.

No. The obligation of the majority is to protect the rights of the
minority. That's been codified for centuries.

To protect, not to enable bad behavior and foster slothfullness and
entitlement.


Nom they wouldn't. Just as Doug pointed out, there are various scenarios
of
what people will accept and not accept. The problem is the slippery slope
thing....where do you draew the line?

Exactly. Where do you draw the line. IMHO, the line is between the
woman, her god, and the doctor. The gov't has no business
interferring, yet the right-wingers insist on it. Why?

Just because you haven't doesn't mean they don't exist. You would
saddle a 15 year old with a child she can't take care of and doesn't
want all because of one mistake?

Yes. I would. She is culpable. She must learn how to take care of what
whe has brought into the world or she must give the baby up for adoption.

No. She's a child.

Young women of 15 are not children in this day and age, and probably weren't
in any day and age.

Children are not responsible for their
actions.

The age of reason begins around the age of 7. Moral conciousness is
developed before then. And yes, children are and should be held resposible
for their actions. You really need a good dose of Jim Fay and Love and
Logic. Good thing you don't have kids,..they'd be a royal mess.

That's just cold-hearted and mean.

Bleeding heart liberal...responsible for most of the social ills of the
present because you don't realize that people, children included, must be
responsible for their actions.

Why is it necessary to
ruin her life and probably the life of the child after it's born? So
you can feel good about your paycheck or your morality??

My paycheck and morality have nothing to do with it. How many young women
who've had abortions have you talked to? They are usually consymed with
guilt for years and years afterwards and regret what they did.


She's going to be mature enough to
take care of herself long enough to have a healthy baby?

Yes. There are programs available. And there are plenty of infertile
couples who want that baby.

Really? Well, that's news to me? Do you really think most people are going
want a baby from a 15 year old child from a broken home, a minority,
who hasn't even gotten out of high school, and who might be doing drugs
during the pregnancy?

Yep. There are tons of people out there waiting for those babies and they
cry themselves to sleep every night because there isn't one for them. Go
check the lists at the adoption agencies. Lots of people who are waiting
and waiting and waiting. And BTW, my sister adopted 4 of those kinds of
children. And now she's fostering 3 more, so don;'t tell me there aren't
people out there. My cousin in MN has fosterd and adopted, also. Maybe you
need to start running with a different crowd if you haven't met any of those
kind of folks.

What about
the girl who was raped by her father, uncle or boyfriend, but is
afraid to say anything?

Grasping here, Jon. The chances of preganancy in those cases is probably
very slight. But then you get to the lesser of two evils thing. That's
one
of the gray areas.

Not really. So, you're saying that you can't get pregnant if you're a
virgin and your uncle rapes you?

No I didn't say that. Now you're getting totally ridiculous.

You call it a grey area, but how does
this child get through the system if she has to inform her father, the
guy who raped her, that she's requesting an abortion?

She informs the school guidance couselor, Protective Services, the
police...she emancipates herself. rather than educate about abortion,
educate on how to take care of yourself.


There is always
the lessor of two evils. I'm not in favor of abortion. I'm just in
favor of the woman's right to make the decision, and not have some
"official" do it for her.

Seems rather cruel, but if that's ok with you,
fine. It's not ok with me, and I don't think your or my will should be
imposed on the rest of the people.

It's not yours or mine individual wills but the combined wills of many
people.

The vast majority of people in this country support a woman's right to
choose.

As do I. But that doesn't mean that I don't think the action is wrong and
immoral. And it doesn't mean that I still don't have the right to my
opinion or the right to voice my opinion.


Yet, the Bush administration and other right-wing groups are
attempting to get around those wishes... it's something like 80% I
believe.

If that were so, the issue would be settled. And the 80% would not vote for
Bush.


That's what you don't seem to
understand.

Oh, I understand quite well. You want it all your way. And everyone else
is wrong.

No. I want us to follow the rule of law and respect the majority view.

Ah, but what about those minority rights? You seem to have forgotten about
them quite conveniently.

You and I will never agree on anything political, Jon, so I'm ending this
discussion because I like you way too much to argue with you further. You
want to talk about sailing, that's fine with me, but this foes nowhere.







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