"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message

Geez Max.... now you've done it. You've made a claim as to a vessel's
ability that isn't listed as possible in Doug's library!!

Next thing you know Loco will be telling you about an interview he saw
about
the subject.

No fears man... I for one do indeed believe you. Seems like fin keelers
think a full keel boat can't possibly sail faster than 3 knots..... in any
conditions.

I used to chuckle when a friend's former Westsail 32 would leave virtually
everything behind on windy days. And I get a kick out of watching Catalina
34 owners turn tail and run the other way when they can't outdistance my
current 34' full keel boat in any wind conditions. But hey, who am I to
attempt to dispel long-standing misconceptions? There are a lot of authors
who made big bucks creating them.

Max

Oh how too bad...I love Shiloh...when the original owners put her up for
sale, I was sad i didn't hae the dollars to buy her...and I do know from
having sailed in fleet with her that she performs like the one you just
sailed on....but she sure don't point.....
"Maxprop" wrote in message
link.net...

"katysails" wrote in message

Shiloh?
We knew the owner's once removed who bought her new....

No. Shiloh is on the hard at her owner's house, looking rather neglected.
She's not been in the water in two years or more, while the owner has
built
his gorgeous home just outside Whitehall.

This Bayfield 40 was bought last year by some friends who found her in
Traverse City. Shiloh has a black hull, this boat is white with blue
sheer
and boot stripes.

Max

"katysails" wrote in message

Oh how too bad...I love Shiloh...when the original owners put her up for
sale, I was sad i didn't hae the dollars to buy her...and I do know from
having sailed in fleet with her that she performs like the one you just
sailed on....but she sure don't point.....

No, she doesn't. But that's why cruising sailboats have substantial
auxiliaries. She'll do 8kts. at 2600rpm into 3' waves with a comfortable
ride. IIRC Shiloh had roller main and mizzen sails, tanbark to boot. And
the current owners installed a bow thruster several years ago.

Max

Yeah...I remember when they bored the holes in her hull but I guess it beats
ramming her up agasinst the dock every time you land...that dolphin striker
has seen a lot of strikes....
"Maxprop" wrote in message
link.net...

"katysails" wrote in message

Oh how too bad...I love Shiloh...when the original owners put her up for
sale, I was sad i didn't hae the dollars to buy her...and I do know from
having sailed in fleet with her that she performs like the one you just
sailed on....but she sure don't point.....

No, she doesn't. But that's why cruising sailboats have substantial
auxiliaries. She'll do 8kts. at 2600rpm into 3' waves with a comfortable
ride. IIRC Shiloh had roller main and mizzen sails, tanbark to boot. And
the current owners installed a bow thruster several years ago.

Max

Maxprop wrote:
I used to chuckle when a friend's former Westsail 32 would leave virtually
everything behind on windy days.

I get a chuckle out of crab-crusher sailers who occasionally manage to
pass a poorly handled production cruiser-racer and then brags forever
about "leaving everything behind."

DSK

Maxprop wrote:
Don't know what to tell you, Doug. I was there, you weren't.

Oh, I'm not calling you a liar at all. It can happen. Beetle Cats
occasionally outsail FDs.

If the C&C was sailing with their sails badly trimmed, and a foul
bottom, the engine running & in reverse gear, towing a partially swamped
dinghy, etc etc then it'd be a piece of cake.

There are conditions that would favor the Bayfield, such as broad
reaching in heavy air & white sails only... but I doubt that's quite
enough. If both boats were equally well sailed, equally outfitted &
tuned etc etc, then the C&C should be somewhat faster even then... and
much faster most other cases.

I've been on both sides of the crab-crusher vs modern design equation.
It depends on the boats... some are just plain pigs, and IMHO none of
the Bayfields are... and it depends a LOT on the skippers.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"DSK" wrote in message

Maxprop wrote:
I used to chuckle when a friend's former Westsail 32 would leave
virtually
everything behind on windy days.

I get a chuckle out of crab-crusher sailers who occasionally manage to
pass a poorly handled production cruiser-racer and then brags forever
about "leaving everything behind."

Well, no one could ever claim that Doug is bogged down in falacious dogma.
:-)

Max

"DSK" wrote in message

Maxprop wrote:
Don't know what to tell you, Doug. I was there, you weren't.

Oh, I'm not calling you a liar at all. It can happen. Beetle Cats
occasionally outsail FDs.

If the C&C was sailing with their sails badly trimmed, and a foul
bottom, the engine running & in reverse gear, towing a partially swamped
dinghy, etc etc then it'd be a piece of cake.

The only penalty the C&C carried was four extra passengers beyond the owner
and his girlfriend--total crew 6; the Bayfield had four. The bottom is
racing smooth (VC-17), the skipper, who took the helm from one of his
passengers when we began to leave him behind is not only competent, he's
done well in club racing events. The engine was not running, the sails are
in excellent shape, and the only thing he was towing was a typical C&C wake.


There are conditions that would favor the Bayfield, such as broad
reaching in heavy air & white sails only...

As I pointed out we were beam reaching in 13 and under, and later broad
reaching in 3-5.

but I doubt that's quite
enough. If both boats were equally well sailed, equally outfitted &
tuned etc etc, then the C&C should be somewhat faster even then... and
much faster most other cases.

. . . which is precisely what we were thinking. Trust me, it surprised us
as much as anyone. We have no explanation as to why the C&C didn't sail out
of sight over the bow. The Bayfield's owner is still scratching his head.
Prior to the C&C joining us on Lake Michigan, we were joking about how he'd
sail circles around us to drive home the point. Never happened.


I've been on both sides of the crab-crusher

The Bayfield is not really a so-called crab crusher. It's a traditional
full-keel cutter ketch of fairly heavy displacement, shallow draft,
relatively narrow beam, and adequate sail area broken up into four parts.
It's very unlike a Baba, Hans Christian, Tayana, or such.

vs modern design equation.
It depends on the boats... some are just plain pigs, and IMHO none of
the Bayfields are... and it depends a LOT on the skippers.

The Bayfield's skipper had been piloting a powerboat since his youth and up
until last year when he bought the Bayfield. The C&C skipper's resume,
beyond what he's done lately, is unknown to me.

The most surprised person in all this was the C&C's owner/skipper. The
people sailing with him as guests have confirmed that he scratched his head
repeatedly during the whole event. He's not the type to get upset, but he
was baffled by what was occurring. The fact is, he only caught us and
passed us once--in the channel when the wind was blocked by dunes. Once out
on the smaller lake, we made up the quarter mile difference, passed him, and
held on to our lead until the narrows. Them's the facts, despite how you
care to spin them.

Not everything can be explained by your apparently cast-in-concrete dogma,
Doug. A modicum of flexibility and belief in the fact that strange things
occasionally happen would go a long way in moderating your outlook on life
and sailing. Then again, perhaps you prefer to see things only in black and
white.

Max