BoatBanter.com - Seamanship Question #5

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Marc	July 25th 04 05:24 AM

Seamanship Question #5

2 things. first , get a speed seal pump cover. 4 knurled thumb screws
and the cover comes off, no tools.

second, drill out the threaded holes in the pump and weld nuts to the
forward side of the pump bracket. Insert the bolts through the pump
from the rear , Pump is then removeable without removing the bracket.

On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 23:26:28 -0300, "Capt. Mooron"
wrote:

I'm overjoyed I coaxed you into a proper reply to Bart's Question Jeff! ;-P

Seriously... each step you illustrated was correct... and I don't have a
gauge so I have to assume a warning buzzer. I've had a few clogged intakes
in time and a couple of bad impellers.... I concur with your assessment of
Yanmar Pumps!

CM

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
| The coolant flow can be checked by inspection almost immediately, though a
| partial clog can look OK and still send it into Overheat. Certainly I'd
look
| there first if there was any significant change.
|
| However, if the gauge is moving quickly, like up and down in a matter of
| seconds, it can't be a real temperature issue, because the coolant can't
change
| temperature that quickly. I've never had a temp sensor do that, but I've
seen
| it from a faulty oil pressure sensor, and I've seen it from a dangling
wire.
|
| When my heat exchanger was partially clogged the engine was more sensitive
the
| overheating problems. I could tell within a few seconds if my wife turned
on
| the microwave because the temp would start to creep up. Now the temp is
a bit
| more stable, but I can't run the engine up to 3000 rpm if the alternator
is
| fully loaded.
|
| BTW, last week I did have an overheat situation: within a minute after
dropping
| the mooring at Kittery, I noticed the starboard engine temp going up. It
put it
| into neutral and asked my wife to check the water flow - there was none.
We
| killed the engine and went back to the mooring (its sometimes nice to have
two
| engines!). First I pulled the intake of the pump - full flow meaning no
intake
| clog. Then I pulled the output hose off and asked my wife to "start" with
the
| kill switch pulled - no flow. At that point I just pulled off the water
pump,
| removed the cover (damn Yanmar mounted the pump on the GM's so that the
cover
| can't be reached without pulling the pump!). The impellor looked OK, but
my
| wife asked how it worked so I spun the pulley to show her but the impeller
| didn't spin! I seems the impellor was spinning free on its hub. A spare
was
| put in and we were underway again with a total delay of about 45 minutes.
|
|
|
|
| "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
| ...
| Good Grief Jeff...... if you have a coolant problem you'd check the
belts???
| Wouldn't you tend to believe the sensor and simply verify the coolant
flow
| prior to questioning your instruments?
|
| CM
|
| "Jeff Morris" wrote in message
| ...
| | Oh! The ENGINE temperature!
| |
| | Even if there is a cooling problem, the engine provides a significant
| buffer, so
| | if the fluctuation is fast, as in you actually see the needle move,
its
| probably
| | a loose connection on the sensor, or some other such fault.
| |
| | If its a small engine with a large alternator it could be a slipping
belt.
| I've
| | never seen a case where the coolant flow went up and down repeatedly
but I
| | suppose it could happen. Can a thermostat fail in this mode?
|
|
|
|

Jonathan Ganz

July 25th 04 05:35 AM

Seamanship Question #5

Well, we had a problem with the intake being blocked and
the impeller not functioning well. That caused temp fluctuation
as you described.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Bart Senior" wrote in message
. ..
1 point for you Jeff.

The correct answer is Coolant level. When the coolant is low
it can steam and vary the sensor reading.

I had a problem with overheating on a freinds boat on Wednesday.
I was on a tight schedule to get some kids to a class they were taking
and had to rely on the engine to meet schedule, but didn't quite make
it..

As I reconstructed the problem, the strainer which consisted of a
metal basket with its strap hoop handle was installed improperly. My
guess is the stainless strap partially blocked the raw water intake. It
worked fine until the engine was rev'ed up a bit where upon the flow
was not satisfactory. In and out of the slip under power would not
reveal the problem.

Anyway, the engine overheated and thrashed the impeller, or perhaps
vice versa. The coolant boiled off and needed to be replaced.

The fix was to bend the strainer strap into an "M" shape, because I
could not tighten it enough to close the cap--well perhaps I could have,
but I was worried about breaking the studs holding it down. That
would have meant a new strainer.

The impeller installed fine until I had to install the circlip which
sprung off and disappeared--I never found it. A friend ran one
up to me. I found all the impeller pieces except one which may
turn up in the heat exchanger. I'll let the owner deal with that
one.

Jeff, your impeller problem is weird. I didn't think the impeller
could spin on it's shaft. Didn't it have a keyed bushing of some
sort?

Bart

Jeff Morris wrote

The coolant flow can be checked by inspection almost immediately, though
a
partial clog can look OK and still send it into Overheat. Certainly I'd
look
there first if there was any significant change.

However, if the gauge is moving quickly, like up and down in a matter of
seconds, it can't be a real temperature issue, because the coolant can't
change
temperature that quickly. I've never had a temp sensor do that, but
I've
seen
it from a faulty oil pressure sensor, and I've seen it from a dangling
wire.

When my heat exchanger was partially clogged the engine was more
sensitive
the
overheating problems. I could tell within a few seconds if my wife
turned
on
the microwave because the temp would start to creep up. Now the temp
is
a bit
more stable, but I can't run the engine up to 3000 rpm if the alternator
is
fully loaded.

BTW, last week I did have an overheat situation: within a minute after
dropping
the mooring at Kittery, I noticed the starboard engine temp going up.
It
put it
into neutral and asked my wife to check the water flow - there was none.
We
killed the engine and went back to the mooring (its sometimes nice to
have
two
engines!). First I pulled the intake of the pump - full flow meaning
no
intake
clog. Then I pulled the output hose off and asked my wife to "start"
with
the
kill switch pulled - no flow. At that point I just pulled off the water
pump,
removed the cover (damn Yanmar mounted the pump on the GM's so that the
cover
can't be reached without pulling the pump!). The impellor looked OK,
but
my
wife asked how it worked so I spun the pulley to show her but the
impeller
didn't spin! I seems the impellor was spinning free on its hub. A
spare
was
put in and we were underway again with a total delay of about 45
minutes.

"Capt. Mooron" wrote

Good Grief Jeff...... if you have a coolant problem you'd check the
belts???
Wouldn't you tend to believe the sensor and simply verify the coolant
flow
prior to questioning your instruments?

"Jeff Morris" wrote

| Oh! The ENGINE temperature!
|
| Even if there is a cooling problem, the engine provides a
significant
buffer, so
| if the fluctuation is fast, as in you actually see the needle move,
its
probably
| a loose connection on the sensor, or some other such fault.
|
| If its a small engine with a large alternator it could be a slipping
belt.
I've
| never seen a case where the coolant flow went up and down repeatedly
but I
| suppose it could happen. Can a thermostat fail in this mode?

Scout

July 25th 04 01:01 PM

Seamanship Question #5

I walked into a boiler room once and saw the "engineer" wire nutting two
ends of a capillary tube together. I said, "what are you doing?" and he
replied, "I'm installing an indoor/outdoor thermometer and I didn't want to
drill a hole as big as that sensing bulb, so I cut and am splicing the wire
back together."
My next question was, "how did you get an engineer's license?" and he
replied, "I'm a retired cop, people owe me favors."
God's honest truth.
Scout

"Horvath" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 01:00:46 GMT, "Bart Senior"
wrote this crap:

Your temp gauge is fluxuating.

What is the most likely cause? [1 pt]

The temperature is going up and down.

Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now!

Capt. Mooron

July 25th 04 01:23 PM

Seamanship Question #5

Jeff Morris

July 25th 04 01:26 PM

Seamanship Question #5

So if the coolant "boiled off" why didn't that set off major alarms rather than
just temp fluctuations? And if it did get that hot, wouldn't it be prudent to
replace the hoses?

I never would have thought it was possible for an impeller to fail like that
until there was a mention of it in rec.boats.cruising a month ago ... maybe
there was a bad batch. The key on the shaft was fine so the problem is inside
the impeller itself. I talked to Mack Boring (East Coast Distributor) on Friday
because it was new this season. They said its rare but not unheard of.

"Bart Senior" wrote in message
. ..
1 point for you Jeff.

The correct answer is Coolant level. When the coolant is low
it can steam and vary the sensor reading.

I had a problem with overheating on a freinds boat on Wednesday.
I was on a tight schedule to get some kids to a class they were taking
and had to rely on the engine to meet schedule, but didn't quite make
it..

As I reconstructed the problem, the strainer which consisted of a
metal basket with its strap hoop handle was installed improperly. My
guess is the stainless strap partially blocked the raw water intake. It
worked fine until the engine was rev'ed up a bit where upon the flow
was not satisfactory. In and out of the slip under power would not
reveal the problem.

Anyway, the engine overheated and thrashed the impeller, or perhaps
vice versa. The coolant boiled off and needed to be replaced.

The fix was to bend the strainer strap into an "M" shape, because I
could not tighten it enough to close the cap--well perhaps I could have,
but I was worried about breaking the studs holding it down. That
would have meant a new strainer.

The impeller installed fine until I had to install the circlip which
sprung off and disappeared--I never found it. A friend ran one
up to me. I found all the impeller pieces except one which may
turn up in the heat exchanger. I'll let the owner deal with that
one.

Jeff, your impeller problem is weird. I didn't think the impeller
could spin on it's shaft. Didn't it have a keyed bushing of some
sort?

Bart

Jeff Morris wrote

The coolant flow can be checked by inspection almost immediately, though a
partial clog can look OK and still send it into Overheat. Certainly I'd
look
there first if there was any significant change.

However, if the gauge is moving quickly, like up and down in a matter of
seconds, it can't be a real temperature issue, because the coolant can't
change
temperature that quickly. I've never had a temp sensor do that, but I've
seen
it from a faulty oil pressure sensor, and I've seen it from a dangling
wire.

When my heat exchanger was partially clogged the engine was more sensitive
the
overheating problems. I could tell within a few seconds if my wife turned
on
the microwave because the temp would start to creep up. Now the temp is
a bit
more stable, but I can't run the engine up to 3000 rpm if the alternator
is
fully loaded.

BTW, last week I did have an overheat situation: within a minute after
dropping
the mooring at Kittery, I noticed the starboard engine temp going up. It
put it
into neutral and asked my wife to check the water flow - there was none.
We
killed the engine and went back to the mooring (its sometimes nice to have
two
engines!). First I pulled the intake of the pump - full flow meaning no
intake
clog. Then I pulled the output hose off and asked my wife to "start" with
the
kill switch pulled - no flow. At that point I just pulled off the water
pump,
removed the cover (damn Yanmar mounted the pump on the GM's so that the
cover
can't be reached without pulling the pump!). The impellor looked OK, but
my
wife asked how it worked so I spun the pulley to show her but the impeller
didn't spin! I seems the impellor was spinning free on its hub. A spare
was
put in and we were underway again with a total delay of about 45 minutes.

"Capt. Mooron" wrote

Good Grief Jeff...... if you have a coolant problem you'd check the
belts???
Wouldn't you tend to believe the sensor and simply verify the coolant
flow
prior to questioning your instruments?

"Jeff Morris" wrote

| Oh! The ENGINE temperature!
|
| Even if there is a cooling problem, the engine provides a significant
buffer, so
| if the fluctuation is fast, as in you actually see the needle move,
its
probably
| a loose connection on the sensor, or some other such fault.
|
| If its a small engine with a large alternator it could be a slipping
belt.
I've
| never seen a case where the coolant flow went up and down repeatedly
but I
| suppose it could happen. Can a thermostat fail in this mode?

Jeff Morris

July 25th 04 01:51 PM

Seamanship Question #5

I put on the Speed Seals, but their primary virtue, the ability to quickly
inspect the impeller, is lost on the GMF engine because its mounted backwards
and almost impossible to see in. You can reach around and feel the impeller,
but its pretty quick to pull the two large mounting bolts. The biggest pain in
my setup is the input shutoff (what would be a seacock on a normal boat) is a
hard to turn valve on the saildrive that's just out of reach. I keep plugs
handy to seal the hose. In a crisis I could dislocate my shoulder and turn it
off, or dive in from the top to reach it, but usually the plug works just fine.

Since I have two engines, its starting to make sense to just have a spare pump
ready to go in.

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
...
All good Marc... but the face plate faces the engine I believe.

CM

"Marc" wrote in message
...
| 2 things. first , get a speed seal pump cover. 4 knurled thumb screws
| and the cover comes off, no tools.
|
| second, drill out the threaded holes in the pump and weld nuts to the
| forward side of the pump bracket. Insert the bolts through the pump
| from the rear , Pump is then removeable without removing the bracket.
|
| On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 23:26:28 -0300, "Capt. Mooron"
| wrote:
|
| I'm overjoyed I coaxed you into a proper reply to Bart's Question Jeff!
;-P
|
| Seriously... each step you illustrated was correct... and I don't have a
| gauge so I have to assume a warning buzzer. I've had a few clogged
intakes
| in time and a couple of bad impellers.... I concur with your assessment
of
| Yanmar Pumps!
|
| CM
|
|
| "Jeff Morris" wrote in message
| ...
| | The coolant flow can be checked by inspection almost immediately,
though a
| | partial clog can look OK and still send it into Overheat. Certainly
I'd
| look
| | there first if there was any significant change.
| |
| | However, if the gauge is moving quickly, like up and down in a matter
of
| | seconds, it can't be a real temperature issue, because the coolant
can't
| change
| | temperature that quickly. I've never had a temp sensor do that, but
I've
| seen
| | it from a faulty oil pressure sensor, and I've seen it from a dangling
| wire.
| |
| | When my heat exchanger was partially clogged the engine was more
sensitive
| the
| | overheating problems. I could tell within a few seconds if my wife
turned
| on
| | the microwave because the temp would start to creep up. Now the temp
is
| a bit
| | more stable, but I can't run the engine up to 3000 rpm if the
alternator
| is
| | fully loaded.
| |
| | BTW, last week I did have an overheat situation: within a minute after
| dropping
| | the mooring at Kittery, I noticed the starboard engine temp going up.
It
| put it
| | into neutral and asked my wife to check the water flow - there was
none.
| We
| | killed the engine and went back to the mooring (its sometimes nice to
have
| two
| | engines!). First I pulled the intake of the pump - full flow meaning
no
| intake
| | clog. Then I pulled the output hose off and asked my wife to "start"
with
| the
| | kill switch pulled - no flow. At that point I just pulled off the
water
| pump,
| | removed the cover (damn Yanmar mounted the pump on the GM's so that the
| cover
| | can't be reached without pulling the pump!). The impellor looked OK,
but
| my
| | wife asked how it worked so I spun the pulley to show her but the
impeller
| | didn't spin! I seems the impellor was spinning free on its hub. A
spare
| was
| | put in and we were underway again with a total delay of about 45
minutes.
| |
| |
| |
| |
| | "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
| | ...
| | Good Grief Jeff...... if you have a coolant problem you'd check the
| belts???
| | Wouldn't you tend to believe the sensor and simply verify the coolant
| flow
| | prior to questioning your instruments?
| |
| | CM
| |
| | "Jeff Morris" wrote in message
| | ...
| | | Oh! The ENGINE temperature!
| | |
| | | Even if there is a cooling problem, the engine provides a
significant
| | buffer, so
| | | if the fluctuation is fast, as in you actually see the needle move,
| its
| | probably
| | | a loose connection on the sensor, or some other such fault.
| | |
| | | If its a small engine with a large alternator it could be a
slipping
| belt.
| | I've
| | | never seen a case where the coolant flow went up and down
repeatedly
| but I
| | | suppose it could happen. Can a thermostat fail in this mode?
| |
| |
| |
| |
|
|

Marc	July 25th 04 04:39 PM

Seamanship Question #5

Bottom line: If you replace the impeller every season, you get
proficient in doing it, the bolts don't get a chance to rust in, and
the chances of an impeller failure diminish greatly.

On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 09:23:23 -0300, "Capt. Mooron"
wrote:

All good Marc... but the face plate faces the engine I believe.

CM

"Marc" wrote in message
.. .
| 2 things. first , get a speed seal pump cover. 4 knurled thumb screws
| and the cover comes off, no tools.
|
| second, drill out the threaded holes in the pump and weld nuts to the
| forward side of the pump bracket. Insert the bolts through the pump
| from the rear , Pump is then removeable without removing the bracket.
|
| On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 23:26:28 -0300, "Capt. Mooron"
| wrote:
|
| I'm overjoyed I coaxed you into a proper reply to Bart's Question Jeff!
;-P
|
| Seriously... each step you illustrated was correct... and I don't have a
| gauge so I have to assume a warning buzzer. I've had a few clogged
intakes
| in time and a couple of bad impellers.... I concur with your assessment
of
| Yanmar Pumps!
|
| CM
|
|
| "Jeff Morris" wrote in message
| ...
| | The coolant flow can be checked by inspection almost immediately,
though a
| | partial clog can look OK and still send it into Overheat. Certainly
I'd
| look
| | there first if there was any significant change.
| |
| | However, if the gauge is moving quickly, like up and down in a matter
of
| | seconds, it can't be a real temperature issue, because the coolant
can't
| change
| | temperature that quickly. I've never had a temp sensor do that, but
I've
| seen
| | it from a faulty oil pressure sensor, and I've seen it from a dangling
| wire.
| |
| | When my heat exchanger was partially clogged the engine was more
sensitive
| the
| | overheating problems. I could tell within a few seconds if my wife
turned
| on
| | the microwave because the temp would start to creep up. Now the temp
is
| a bit
| | more stable, but I can't run the engine up to 3000 rpm if the
alternator
| is
| | fully loaded.
| |
| | BTW, last week I did have an overheat situation: within a minute after
| dropping
| | the mooring at Kittery, I noticed the starboard engine temp going up.
It
| put it
| | into neutral and asked my wife to check the water flow - there was
none.
| We
| | killed the engine and went back to the mooring (its sometimes nice to
have
| two
| | engines!). First I pulled the intake of the pump - full flow meaning
no
| intake
| | clog. Then I pulled the output hose off and asked my wife to "start"
with
| the
| | kill switch pulled - no flow. At that point I just pulled off the
water
| pump,
| | removed the cover (damn Yanmar mounted the pump on the GM's so that the
| cover
| | can't be reached without pulling the pump!). The impellor looked OK,
but
| my
| | wife asked how it worked so I spun the pulley to show her but the
impeller
| | didn't spin! I seems the impellor was spinning free on its hub. A
spare
| was
| | put in and we were underway again with a total delay of about 45
minutes.
| |
| |
| |
| |
| | "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
| | ...
| | Good Grief Jeff...... if you have a coolant problem you'd check the
| belts???
| | Wouldn't you tend to believe the sensor and simply verify the coolant
| flow
| | prior to questioning your instruments?
| |
| | CM
| |
| | "Jeff Morris" wrote in message
| | ...
| | | Oh! The ENGINE temperature!
| | |
| | | Even if there is a cooling problem, the engine provides a
significant
| | buffer, so
| | | if the fluctuation is fast, as in you actually see the needle move,
| its
| | probably
| | | a loose connection on the sensor, or some other such fault.
| | |
| | | If its a small engine with a large alternator it could be a
slipping
| belt.
| | I've
| | | never seen a case where the coolant flow went up and down
repeatedly
| but I
| | | suppose it could happen. Can a thermostat fail in this mode?
| |
| |
| |
| |
|
|

Capt. Mooron

July 25th 04 04:55 PM

Seamanship Question #5

Scott Vernon

July 25th 04 05:35 PM

Seamanship Question #5

"Marc" wrote in message
...
2 things. first , get a speed seal pump cover. 4 knurled thumb screws
and the cover comes off, no tools.

But there's six screws.

Scott Vernon

July 25th 04 05:36 PM

Seamanship Question #5

"Marc" wrote in message
...
Bottom line: If you replace the impeller every season, you get
proficient in doing it, the bolts don't get a chance to rust in,

Never Seize.

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