"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...


Jeff Morris wrote:

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...


Jeff Morris wrote:

...

Flotation is nothing new - I sailed for a dozen years before using a boat
without positive flotation. It has long been required by law for boats a

bit

smaller than yours.

And did I say that the Mac's are the ONLY boats to provide positive
flotation, Jef? I can't seem to find a statement to that effect in my
previous note. - What I DID say was that the Macs included that
particular advantage. And if you're honest, you will admit that only a
relatively small number of cruising sailboats incorporate positive
flotation. - If you don't believe me, try conducting a poll of this
newsgroup, asking them whether their boats would float if the hull were
compromised. Or whether their boat would quickly sink to the bottom
under such circumstances.


As I said, flotation is required on smaller boats, and is pretty standard on
trailer boats and water ballast boats. In fact, I would guess that most
boats
26 feet and under that don't have significant ballast have positive
flotation.

Although not common in larger boats, my boat is 36 feet and has positive
flotation. It would not sink if the hull was compromised.


Your boat can't do that under sail unless it is used recklessly - without
ballast in a strong wind. THis is exactly the type of exaggeration I'm

talking

about. They make it sound like it performs better than any other boat,
even
under sail, when in fact its a dog.


Once again, Jeff, did I say that I was talking about planing UNDER SAIL?
The facts are that very few of the boats owned by contributors to this
ng could plane REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY WERE POWERED OR UNDER SAIL. -


Again, my boat will fly away from the "displacement-speed-barrier," and it
will
do it under sail. A few days ago I averaged over 9 knots for about 15 miles
under main alone.



Unless, of course,they were caught in a storm and planing down a wave.
It's also true that the Mac CAN plane under sail, under certain
conditions.


That's not what most of the owners report. I've only heard of this when
sailing
without ballast in strong winds, a practise considered rather dangerous for
a
Mac.





Still further advantages include the ability to float in waters as
shallow as one foot, and to be beached for picnics, camping, etc. A
still further advantage is that they are trailerable, permitting them to
be conveniently relocated to a desired sailing area hundreds of miles

from their usual port.


Most of what you're talking about are standard features, long available on
a
large number of boats.

Really Jeff? Why don't you ask the contributors to this ng whether their
boats can be beached for picnics,


My boat can be beached.


float in one foot of water,


Mine takes almost 3 feet, but with the optional daggerboards its about 18
inches. Funny, though, they only called it a different version of the same
boat!


trailered


Mine is too big to be trailered, but others of its style can be.


down the coast to a desired sailing area hundreds of miles away, etc.
The point isn't that the Mac is the only boat to incorporate each and
every feature named above. Rather, the point is that it offers a package
of advantageous features not often available in a 26-foot cruising
sailboat.


Actually, almost all of the features can be had in other boats. There are
only
two things that make it unique: First, the hull sacrifices considerable
sailing
performance to give speed under power. However, the claims of speed are
exaggerated, since they are based on a totally stripped boat; in reality
they
are only about 50% faster than many sailboats under power. Second, they are
built to a lower quality standard than many boaters consider prudent. This
allows them to be cheaper, and allows you to claim that this is a unique
combination that no other builder can match.



You can claim the 26X has a unique combination of these

features, but the question the prospective buyer must answer is whether
this

is

enough to overcome the obvious shortcomings.




And what are those shortcomings, Jeff?


Very poor performance under sail. Serious stability issues - the 26X has
been
known to roll over in clam conditions. Poor resale - I've seen 5 year old
26X's
offered for about half price.

If the Macs are that dangerous, and that poorly built, there must be
hundreds of Mac owners who are killed or injured every year. How many
people have been killed or injured this year, Jeff? It must be something
like the casualty reports from Iraq. - Three Mac owners killed to day
when their Mac fell apart in 20-knot winds. - Mac skipper and three
guests drowned today when their Mac hit an obstruction and sank; Four
childred killed today in their Mac 26., etc., etc. (Gee, I must be
missing something, because I haven't been getting these casualty
reports.)

I've posted a few reports; you seem to ignore them.

Regarding resale, Mac 26Ms equiped and with motor advertised
on yachtworld.com are selling for around $30K.

Looking for the highest price asked is what a fool does. Soundings has a number
of Macs: 4 to 5 year 26M are asking about 18-20K, presumably they can be had for
less.

Here's just one example:
2002 MACGREGOR 26', SAILBOAT, 50HP, NISSAN OUTBOARD, NEW BOTTOM PAINT, SLEEPS 6,
GALLEY & HEAD, VERY LOW HRS, $22,500, 401-846-4946 (DT15TP)

another:
2001 MACGREGOR 26', , SAILBOAT, SUZUKI 50 HP ENGINE W/36 HOURS, TWO BATTERIES,
MAST RAISING SYSTEM, MAIN SAIL SLUGS, ROLLER FURLING, JIB, GENOA, BIMINI,
COCKPIT CUSIONS AND LOTS OF EXTRAS, $20,800

another:
1999 MACGREGOR 26X 26' WHITE WIND, 50HP HONDA FOUR STROKE, WHEEL, ROLLER
FURLING, TRAILER, EASY TO LAUNCH AND SET-UP; ENJOY BOTH MOTORING SPEED AND
SAILING PERFORMANCE $19,900

another:
1999 MACGREGOR 26X, 26' 0'' TOUCH-N-GO, 1999 MACGREGOR 26X,, TOUCH-N-GO
TOUCH-&-GO IS AN EXCELLENT, TRAILERABLE SAILBOAT THAT IS A DREAM TO LAUNCH AND
TO SAIL. SHE IS IN EXCELLENT CONDITION AND HAS BEEN COVERED EVERY WINTER FOR
STORAGE. SHE ALSO COMES WITH LOADS OF EXTRAS (SEE LIST BELOW). $18,2000

the list goes on ...

Regarding depreciation,
the meaningful figure is not the percentage depreciation, but rather,
the total dollars lost. In other words, what you paid for the boat and
equipment, plus what you paid for dock fees, repairs, enhancements,
insurance, maintenance, bottom treatment, interst, etc., etc., minus the
net price received.

In other words, you have to pay as though you had a real boat, but you only got
a Mac. This argument is exactly why you should get the most for your money, not
the least.

Further, purchasing a Mac near the introduction of
a new model line, about every seven years (e.g., the 26C, the 26X, the
26M) doesn't involve the same depreciation as one purchased near the end
of such a model line.

Maybe for a year or so there is a demand, but after that the early examples of a
version depreciate faster. If you keep the boat for 4 years you'll likely lose
half your money.



(Remembering that in my case, we
sail in the Galveston Bay area in which there are hundreds of square
miles of waters of limited depth.) My boat is fast, comfortable, and
stable in severe conditions.


Tell that to the parents of the children who died because they were trapped
below when their boat rolled in calm conditions.


As you probably know, that case involved a drunken skipper, grossly
overloaded, who permitted multiple many passengers to sit on the front
deck of a small 26-foot boat, and who either didn't know or ignored or
was too drunk to understand the most basic safety issues of such a boat
(the requirement that the ballast tank be filled with water.). What
should be done in that case is put that skipper, and the owner (who was
also responsible) in prison.

The article I read did not emphasis alcohol, but it doesn't surprise me. The
bottom line, however, is that the boat was sitting at anchor, in calm water, no
wind when it rolled. Further, your beloved flotation did not held the children
below. Its true the ballast was empty, but you yourself have often quoted speed
numbers that can only be achieved by running without ballast.






Also, it incorporates a number of controls
and lines that can be adjusted for tuning the boat to achieve
substantial speed.


Total nonsense. It's stuff like this that marks you as a novice that
believed
all the hype. They added a traveler and you think its a performance
machine.

Really? And what's your source of information, Jeff?

If the boat could acheive "substantial speed" someone would be racing one and it
would have a rating. Although it is probably the best selling sailboat over 25
feet, it is remarkable that it is almost impossible to find a PHRF rating for
it. I know its raced in a few obscure places, but I've spent a lot of time
looking and haven't found a mention of it in any of the major organisations, and
most guesses as to its rating are in the high 250 to 320.

Of course, there was the April Fool's hoax of a low rating that you bought, hook
line and sinker!!! Maybe that's why your credibility is so low!


In addition to the
traveler, the daggerboard can be positioned completely up, partially up,
partially down, etc., at any depth desired as best suited for particular
conditions and points of sail. The boat can be sailed with one, or two,
rudders down, as desired, or motored with two, or one rudder, or none,
and with the daggerboard partially down, for maneuverability at slower
speeds, or raised, during planing. The blocks through which the sheets
are run can be positioned forward or aft in their tracks, in the desired
position. The rigging can be tuned, as desired, and the mast can be
"bent" forward or rearward, as desired. In my boat, the main has three
reefing points from which to choose, the jib is roller-furled. The
mast is axially rotatable, in response to the apparent wind direction.
As is typical on most new Macs, my boat also has the ability to plane
under power, trim controls are provided, and the motor can be raised out
of the water to reduce drag when under sail, etc. Because of the dual
rudders linked to the motor, it is well-controlled when maneuvering in
reverse at low speeds. In my boat the lines are led aft to the cockput,
although one may go forward to adjust them individually if desired. A
further choice provided in the Mac is that, under some conditions, the
water ballast can be let out for better performance under power or, in
some conditions, under sail. (Although it's not recommended except in
some circumstances, it is an option.)

The fact that you feel the need to mention all this just shows your ignorance.
The issue is not whether they have lots of adjustments; the issue is whether any
of the make it go faster. A real racer would point out the the opposite is
true: misuse of these settings will make the boat go slower!



PLEASE NOTE THAT I DIDN'T SAY THAT ALL THESE VARIOUS FEATURES AND TUNING
CHOICES ARE UNIQUE TO THE MAC26M. However, I would suggest that the
above paragraph illustrates that the Mac provide a number of choices
relative to tuning, adjustments, etc., many of which aren't common on
most cruising sailboats. - There are obviously a number of possible
adjustments and tuning choices in addiiton to those provided by the new
traveler.

Incidentally, Jeff, when did I claim that the Mac 26M was a true
performance boat? (It's obviously a small cruising sailboat, not a
racer.) - Where, exactly, is my note claiming that it's a "true
performance boat"? - (Although I wouldn't characterize it as a racer, I
do find that it's fast and responsive enough to be fun.)

You've talked many times about "substantial speed," even implied it can plane
under sail. One of the fundamental complaints of the boat is that it is very
slow under sail. You keep talking about features like the traveler and
daggerboard, but keep ignoring the fact that its a slow boat.





If you want a boat with all the features you list, you could get one of
these:

http://www.geminicatamarans.com/Performance_Telstar.htm

It would sail and power circles around yours, is infinately safer, draws one
foot, can be trailered, has positive floatation, and has a nicer interior.
This
price is somewhat higher, but the depreciation is probably less.


It's a nice boat. So is the 26M, for a lot less.

So instead of parroting the marketing bull****, why don;t you sail the boat and
tell us about your experiances?