DSK wrote:

Nav wrote:

.... I agree with you Doug.


Well golly, that's made my week... wait'll I tell my Mom...


Well it's a serious question and I agree with you. Are you surprised you
knew/guessed the best (IMHO) answer?

:P

Cheers

Nav wrote:
Well it's a serious question and I agree with you. Are you surprised you
knew/guessed the best (IMHO) answer?

I neither "knew" nor guessed, just described what I would (probably) do.
Since I have been in a similar situation, that affects my judgement.

I am surprised that you agree, I am not surprised that you think in
terms of "right" and "best" answers as though sailing was some sort of
academic exercise where theory & book-learning counts for more than
actual ability.

DSK

DSK wrote:

Nav wrote:

Well it's a serious question and I agree with you. Are you surprised
you knew/guessed the best (IMHO) answer?


I neither "knew" nor guessed, just described what I would (probably) do.
Since I have been in a similar situation, that affects my judgement.

I am surprised that you agree, I am not surprised that you think in
terms of "right" and "best" answers as though sailing was some sort of
academic exercise where theory & book-learning counts for more than
actual ability.


So you don't think it's the "best (IMHO)" answer? What is a better
answer? Please don't tell us you are muddled and unable to judge merit
among choices! This would never do for a skipper. As for my thinking
about sailing as an academic exercise your are quite wrong.
Nevertheless, your dislike of education shows. Frankly many things can
be better learnt from others and "book-learning" is an important
tool/medium for achieving this -ask any qualified ships master.
Knowledge forearms all and even those who only seem learn from practical
repitition, would be better off for some "book-learning" -IMHO of course.

Cheers

Nav wrote:
So you don't think it's the "best (IMHO)" answer?

I neither know nor care what the "best" answer is, in your humble
opinion. It's a stupid way to think about sailing. There is no right
answer, there is no best answer... only things that work and things that
fail. Some methods & tactics work well, some do not... but no single
action will always be "right" or "best" irregardless of conditions.



Nevertheless, your dislike of education shows.

I don't dislike education, what I dislike is your pedantic sneering.

... Frankly many things can
be better learnt from others

Like manners?

... and "book-learning" is an important
tool/medium for achieving this -ask any qualified ships master.

Agreed.

DSK

Here are my ideas.

First off, I like Ozzie's idea of handing the man the jib sheet. I'd
also talk to him about what I planned to do so he can hold his
breath.

Someone should hand him the boats throwable floatation right away.
If he manages to free himself from the boat he'll need that.

Firing a flare right away might be a good idea. Usually
in a race problems on other boats downwind are spotted quickly,
but others might react more quickly if there was a sense of
urgency provoked by a flare. A handheld VHF call for help
would be wise also, in case the problem takes a long time to
resolve. I would not waste time talking, I'd possibly give one
quick report and focus on the task at hand, and not count on
any help.

I'd worriy about the spinnaker pole flailing around the foredeck.
This would not be a good time to lose a second crew overboard
with a head injury and have to chose which one to save first, and
possibly which one to die. I've been hit in the head by a spinnaker
pole and people have died from injuries like that.

In the described conditions, I'd start by dumping the pole lift, and
sheet in the foreguy to drop the spinnaker pole. I'd ease the
spinnaker halyard 6 feet. and let the spinnaker sheet run. That
would leave the spinnaker streaming out downwind, and out of the
water, and in a good position to recover it later. It might turn
out that the spinnaker pole could be used helm keep the mans' head
out of the water also.

I do not like the idea of having the spinnaker in the water attached to
the boat. It might complicate matters in unexpected ways.

The helmsman's should yell "gybing", and sheet in the main halfway. If the
boat was by the lee, as Doug stated, it would be in the first stages of
a death roll, and it would be a slam gybe as the boom crossed the boat
and began to round up. Sheeting the main in halfway plus the boats
momentum would help keep the boat heeled and turning upwind. If
the boat was not by the lee, gybing still makes sense.

That would put the spinnaker behind the main. And bring the
boat's head up, as it rounds up, and tend to keep the man out
of the water as the boat slows down. The helmsman should steer
up to keep the main luffing and boat stopped and possibly hove-to
with the spinnaker drag offsetting the helm.
..
The boat would be unlikely to unintentionally tack with the spinnaker
streaming off the bow and the main not fully sheeted in. An
unintentional tack is not a good idea as it might make it more difficult
for the man to keep his head out of the water.

At this point the middle woman could reach down from the cockpit
and help the bowman keep his head up out of the water if he was
having trouble getting air. Perhaps he could put his other foot
against the hull and kick himself free at this point. If not the helmsman
could take over the job of helping him stay above water, steering with
the hiking stick or his foot and keeping the boat stopped.

The middle woman could try to free his foot, untie his shoe or whatever.
If the boat were stopped it will be easier to get the foot out.

If the foot is still stuck, depending on the urgency, the woman could free
the jib halyard, tie a big loop with a bowline to support his weight, or tie
it around his foot to brute force the foot free. If I were in the water
having
trouble keeping my head out of the water, I'd gladly accept some cuts,
bruises, or even a broken leg over drowning.

If his foot is really jammed in there the only way to get him out mayl
be to pull him forward.

In heavier wind conditions I'd let spinnaker halyard, sheet and
guy all go. I think the spinnaker would float long enough to
recover later.


Nav wrote

Bart Senior wrote:

DSK wrote


Where is the spinnaker halyard cleat? Can the skipper reach it? Dropping
the chute would slow the boat down... indeed, could well bring it to a
complete stop


How would you do that? Dropping it in the water will
stop the boat quickly and perhaps put the mans head
underwater.

He's got hand hasn't he?

DSK wrote:

Nav wrote:

So you don't think it's the "best (IMHO)" answer?


I neither know nor care what the "best" answer is, in your humble
opinion. It's a stupid way to think about sailing. There is no right
answer, there is no best answer... only things that work and things that
fail. Some methods & tactics work well, some do not... but no single
action will always be "right" or "best" irregardless of conditions.


For a limited range of outcomes optimization of outcome is always best.
You should know this -it's a fundamental tenet of good engineering
practice isn't it?


Nevertheless, your dislike of education shows.

I don't dislike education, what I dislike is your pedantic sneering.


But sneering is only possible when there is an object of contempt.

... Frankly many things can be better learnt from others

Like manners?


Yes, indeed.

Cheers

Bart Senior wrote:

Here are my ideas.

First off, I like Ozzie's idea of handing the man the jib sheet. I'd
also talk to him about what I planned to do so he can hold his
breath.

Someone should hand him the boats throwable floatation right away.
If he manages to free himself from the boat he'll need that.

Firing a flare right away might be a good idea. Usually
in a race problems on other boats downwind are spotted quickly,
but others might react more quickly if there was a sense of
urgency provoked by a flare. A handheld VHF call for help
would be wise also, in case the problem takes a long time to
resolve. I would not waste time talking, I'd possibly give one
quick report and focus on the task at hand, and not count on
any help.


I'm sorry I don't see the situation you describe as life threatening.
Flares and radio calls are not called for at that point -it's not that
serious. You have one man uninjured, not overboard, not unconscious and
two able bodied crew to get him back on board. He can certainly hold on
to a rope to keep his head above water. You just have to get the boat
quickly to a state where she will look after herself and pull him back
on board.

Cheers

Nav wrote:
For a limited range of outcomes optimization of outcome is always best.

In theory, yes.

In practice, when the stuff hits the fan, there is no time to draw up a
flow chart and calculate a risk/benefit chart.

You should know this -it's a fundamental tenet of good engineering
practice isn't it?

I also know a lot of very smart engineers who make poor sailors. They
tend to over-analiyze everything and either take no action or try to
change their action in mid-course. Doctors are worse. The way to skipper
a boat is to be able quickly conceive a plan and follow it through,
whether it is "best" or not.

In theory, there's no difference between practice and theory.
In practice, there is.

DSK