More incredible things learned usenet
 

Incredible, this usenet stuff!!

Just yesterday I learned that a wet exhaust needs an antisiphon valve. [sound
of hand coming sharply to side of head] Why didn't I know THAT? Forever more,
now I am better informed.

who the hell was the stupid cluck who said a wet exhaust needs an antisiphon
valve? who the hell were the stupid clucks who agreed with him/her? Next, we
will hear that bronze screening should be placed over every commode to stop
radiation exposure of the genitals.

More incredible things learned usenet
 

Jax posed: Next, we
will hear that bronze screening should be placed over every commode to stop
radiation exposure of the genitals.

It might help cut down on the surplus population.

--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

More incredible things learned usenet
 

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
Incredible, this usenet stuff!!

Just yesterday I learned that a wet exhaust needs an antisiphon valve. [sound
of hand coming sharply to side of head] Why didn't I know THAT? Forever
more,
now I am better informed.

who the hell was the stupid cluck who said a wet exhaust needs an antisiphon
valve?

Maybe it was the ABYC (American Boat and Yacht Council) in its "Standards and
Recommended Practices for Small Craft":

"The waterlift system shall be designed to prevent siphoning through the raw
water pump when the engine is stopped. If this is accomplished through the use
of a siphon break device, it shall be installed at the top of a loop which shall
rise high enough to assure that the high point where the siphon break device is
installed will always be above the water level surrounding the boat. Depending
on the design of the boat, the condition of its loading, and the sea conditions
encountered, this loop may be 30 to 45 cm (12 to 18 inches) above the waterline
at repose. The loop shall be between the water pump outlet and the point of
injection of cooling water into the exhaust system."

Or maybe it was Calder:
"On any engine that is below the waterline, both the water injection line and
the exhaust pipe create the potential for water to siphon back into the exhaust,
fill it and flow into the engine via open exhaust valves. The injection line
must have an effective siphon break."

who the hell were the stupid clucks who agreed with him/her?

Pretty much everyone, except you. Have you been right about anything in the
last few years?

You can backpedal and nitpick that the water injection line is not part of the
direct path of the exhaust gases, but its pretty clear that everyone considers
it part of the exhaust system.

More incredible things learned usenet
 

"JAXAshby" wrote
who the hell was the stupid cluck who said a wet exhaust needs an antisiphon
valve?


Jeff Morris wrote:
Maybe it was the ABYC (American Boat and Yacht Council)

Yeah, but Jax is *much* smarter than them. I bet none of the ABYC
Technical Committee are in MENSA!

DSK

More incredible things learned usenet
 

kriste almighty, jeffies, the very first sentence clearly states "raw water
cooling". That ain't exhaust, dude.

btw, jeffies, it is forbidden practise to install the exhaust water injection
point below the waterline, unless there is absolutely no way that can be done
(unusual, even in cases of the engine mounted in the salon).

now, jeffies, go back to watching TV.

who the hell was the stupid cluck who said a wet exhaust needs an
antisiphon
valve?

Maybe it was the ABYC (American Boat and Yacht Council) in its "Standards and
Recommended Practices for Small Craft":

"The waterlift system shall be designed to prevent siphoning through the raw
water pump when the engine is stopped. If this is accomplished through the
use
of a siphon break device, it shall be installed at the top of a loop which
shall
rise high enough to assure that the high point where the siphon break device
is
installed will always be above the water level surrounding the boat.
Depending
on the design of the boat, the condition of its loading, and the sea
conditions
encountered, this loop may be 30 to 45 cm (12 to 18 inches) above the
waterline
at repose. The loop shall be between the water pump outlet and the point of
injection of cooling water into the exhaust system."

Or maybe it was Calder:
"On any engine that is below the waterline, both the water injection line and
the exhaust pipe create the potential for water to siphon back into the
exhaust,
fill it and flow into the engine via open exhaust valves. The injection line
must have an effective siphon break."

who the hell were the stupid clucks who agreed with him/her?

Pretty much everyone, except you. Have you been right about anything in the
last few years?

You can backpedal and nitpick that the water injection line is not part of
the
direct path of the exhaust gases, but its pretty clear that everyone
considers
it part of the exhaust system.

More incredible things learned usenet
 

dougies, you too have a problem understanding grade school English like
jeffies?

who the hell was the stupid cluck who said a wet exhaust needs an
antisiphon
valve?


Jeff Morris wrote:
Maybe it was the ABYC (American Boat and Yacht Council)

Yeah, but Jax is *much* smarter than them. I bet none of the ABYC
Technical Committee are in MENSA!

DSK

More incredible things learned usenet
 

oxxy, it is forbidden to have the water injection point below the waterline,
except the rare case when it must be. But that rare case was not the boat
under discussion.

"Jeff Morris"
scribbled thusly:

You can backpedal and nitpick that the water injection line is not part of
the
direct path of the exhaust gases, but its pretty clear that everyone
considers
it part of the exhaust system.



You're learning Jeff.
This is where Jocks will claim victory.
He'll be wrong as usual calling it the raw water system or some such
other but hey. that's Jocks.


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

More incredible things learned usenet
 

Oz called that one 100% correct.
"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
oxxy, it is forbidden to have the water injection point below the
waterline,
except the rare case when it must be. But that rare case was not the boat
under discussion.

"Jeff Morris"
scribbled thusly:

You can backpedal and nitpick that the water injection line is not part
of
the
direct path of the exhaust gases, but its pretty clear that everyone
considers
it part of the exhaust system.



You're learning Jeff.
This is where Jocks will claim victory.
He'll be wrong as usual calling it the raw water system or some such
other but hey. that's Jocks.


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

More incredible things learned usenet
 

oxxy is lost to this universe on this one. philly little boy, you wanna tag
along with oxxy, go ahead.

Oz called that one 100% correct.
"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
oxxy, it is forbidden to have the water injection point below the
waterline,
except the rare case when it must be. But that rare case was not the boat
under discussion.

"Jeff Morris"
scribbled thusly:

You can backpedal and nitpick that the water injection line is not part
of
the
direct path of the exhaust gases, but its pretty clear that everyone
considers
it part of the exhaust system.



You're learning Jeff.
This is where Jocks will claim victory.
He'll be wrong as usual calling it the raw water system or some such
other but hey. that's Jocks.


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

More incredible things learned usenet
 

oxxy, go look at a wet exhaust system and see if you can begin to understand
how it works.

kriste almighty, jeffies, the very first sentence clearly states "raw water
cooling". That ain't exhaust, dude.


Bwaaahahahahahahahahhaaa!
See!

Jocks, you're getting waaaay to easy.

Maybe you could switch back to superchargers or railways, sliding
valve engines...


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

More incredible things learned usenet
 

This is total nonsense. It is quite common, even likely, that the injection
point will be at or near the waterline. Even if its nominally above, one must
add the result of heeling, and possible overloading.

The distance between the injection (with the elbow that raises the injection up)
on the new Yanmar YM series is 16 inches above the prop shaft. While this may
work out on a newer small, fin keel boat, this will very likely be well below
the waterline on a more tradition full keel design where the engine sits deeper.
And, if you subtract some for heeling and overloading, its actually hard to
imagine a setup (other than very small boat) where the injection point isn't
potentially at the waterline.

BTW, my boat, and my previous boat, has a siphon break. I was on a 43 foot
cruising boat today with a Perkins 4-108 where we determined the injection point
was just about at the waterline.

Once again, jax proves he knows about as much about boats as the Tidy Bowl Man.



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
oxxy, it is forbidden to have the water injection point below the waterline,
except the rare case when it must be. But that rare case was not the boat
under discussion.

"Jeff Morris"
scribbled thusly:

You can backpedal and nitpick that the water injection line is not part of
the
direct path of the exhaust gases, but its pretty clear that everyone
considers
it part of the exhaust system.



You're learning Jeff.
This is where Jocks will claim victory.
He'll be wrong as usual calling it the raw water system or some such
other but hey. that's Jocks.


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

More incredible things learned usenet
 

Naa, I don't like playing tag. Ever been on a snipe hunt? You seem a perfec
snipe hunter.
"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
oxxy is lost to this universe on this one. philly little boy, you wanna
tag
along with oxxy, go ahead.

Oz called that one 100% correct.
"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
oxxy, it is forbidden to have the water injection point below the
waterline,
except the rare case when it must be. But that rare case was not the
boat
under discussion.

"Jeff Morris"
scribbled thusly:

You can backpedal and nitpick that the water injection line is not
part
of
the
direct path of the exhaust gases, but its pretty clear that everyone
considers
it part of the exhaust system.



You're learning Jeff.
This is where Jocks will claim victory.
He'll be wrong as usual calling it the raw water system or some such
other but hey. that's Jocks.


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

More incredible things learned usenet
 

jefffies, you are spouting your ill-informed opinion.

having the water injection point anywhere near the waterline is forbidden (not
to mention stupid) unless there is no other way possible.

This is total nonsense. It is quite common, even likely, that the injection
point will be at or near the waterline. Even if its nominally above, one
must
add the result of heeling, and possible overloading.

The distance between the injection (with the elbow that raises the injection
up)
on the new Yanmar YM series is 16 inches above the prop shaft. While this
may
work out on a newer small, fin keel boat, this will very likely be well below
the waterline on a more tradition full keel design where the engine sits
deeper.
And, if you subtract some for heeling and overloading, its actually hard to
imagine a setup (other than very small boat) where the injection point isn't
potentially at the waterline.

BTW, my boat, and my previous boat, has a siphon break. I was on a 43 foot
cruising boat today with a Perkins 4-108 where we determined the injection
point
was just about at the waterline.

Once again, jax proves he knows about as much about boats as the Tidy Bowl
Man.



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
oxxy, it is forbidden to have the water injection point below the
waterline,
except the rare case when it must be. But that rare case was not the boat
under discussion.

"Jeff Morris"
scribbled thusly:

You can backpedal and nitpick that the water injection line is not part
of
the
direct path of the exhaust gases, but its pretty clear that everyone
considers
it part of the exhaust system.



You're learning Jeff.
This is where Jocks will claim victory.
He'll be wrong as usual calling it the raw water system or some such
other but hey. that's Jocks.


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

More incredible things learned usenet
 

phillie, it seems you are more than happy to proclaim to one and all that you
can NOT see where the water injection point is on a wet exhaust and you have no
intention of ever doing so, but you are more than happy to tell the world you
are an expert.

way to go, dum-dum.

Naa, I don't like playing tag. Ever been on a snipe hunt? You seem a perfec
snipe hunter.
"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
oxxy is lost to this universe on this one. philly little boy, you wanna
tag
along with oxxy, go ahead.

Oz called that one 100% correct.
"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
oxxy, it is forbidden to have the water injection point below the
waterline,
except the rare case when it must be. But that rare case was not the
boat
under discussion.

"Jeff Morris"
scribbled thusly:

You can backpedal and nitpick that the water injection line is not
part
of
the
direct path of the exhaust gases, but its pretty clear that everyone
considers
it part of the exhaust system.



You're learning Jeff.
This is where Jocks will claim victory.
He'll be wrong as usual calling it the raw water system or some such
other but hey. that's Jocks.


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

More incredible things learned usenet
 

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
jefffies, you are spouting your ill-informed opinion.

having the water injection point anywhere near the waterline is forbidden (not
to mention stupid) unless there is no other way possible.

No, you're wrong as usual. It is a definately forbidden to have the injection
point near the waterline with the appropriate protection, such as a siphon
break. I even posted the ABYC guideline.

Given the geometry of the most commonly used engine (and most others), and
taking into account heel angle and an extra margin for overloading, there's less
than a foot between the injection and prop shaft. Since one wants to minimize
the down angle (15 degrees is the max, but under 8 degrees is better), you'd
have to put the engine in the bow to ensure the injection point is always above
the waterline.

Here's a diagram of the boat in question, a Pearson 30. Its pretty clear to see
that even with an extreme angle, the engine is completely below the waterline.
A siphon break is obviously required.
http://pearsoninfo.net/30/30.htm





This is total nonsense. It is quite common, even likely, that the injection
point will be at or near the waterline. Even if its nominally above, one
must
add the result of heeling, and possible overloading.

The distance between the injection (with the elbow that raises the injection
up)
on the new Yanmar YM series is 16 inches above the prop shaft. While this
may
work out on a newer small, fin keel boat, this will very likely be well below
the waterline on a more tradition full keel design where the engine sits
deeper.
And, if you subtract some for heeling and overloading, its actually hard to
imagine a setup (other than very small boat) where the injection point isn't
potentially at the waterline.

BTW, my boat, and my previous boat, has a siphon break. I was on a 43 foot
cruising boat today with a Perkins 4-108 where we determined the injection
point
was just about at the waterline.

Once again, jax proves he knows about as much about boats as the Tidy Bowl
Man.



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
oxxy, it is forbidden to have the water injection point below the
waterline,
except the rare case when it must be. But that rare case was not the boat
under discussion.

"Jeff Morris"
scribbled thusly:

You can backpedal and nitpick that the water injection line is not part
of
the
direct path of the exhaust gases, but its pretty clear that everyone
considers
it part of the exhaust system.



You're learning Jeff.
This is where Jocks will claim victory.
He'll be wrong as usual calling it the raw water system or some such
other but hey. that's Jocks.


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

More incredible things learned usenet
 

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
jefffies, you are spouting your ill-informed opinion.

having the water injection point anywhere near the waterline is forbidden
(not
to mention stupid) unless there is no other way possible.

No, you're wrong as usual. It is a definately forbidden to have the injection
point near the waterline with the appropriate protection, such as a siphon
break. I even posted the ABYC guideline.

Sorry, I meant, of course, "WITHOUT the appropraite protection"


Given the geometry of the most commonly used engine (and most others), and
taking into account heel angle and an extra margin for overloading, there's
less
than a foot between the injection and prop shaft. Since one wants to minimize
the down angle (15 degrees is the max, but under 8 degrees is better), you'd
have to put the engine in the bow to ensure the injection point is always
above
the waterline.

Here's a diagram of the boat in question, a Pearson 30. Its pretty clear to
see
that even with an extreme angle, the engine is completely below the waterline.
A siphon break is obviously required.
http://pearsoninfo.net/30/30.htm





This is total nonsense. It is quite common, even likely, that the
injection
point will be at or near the waterline. Even if its nominally above, one
must
add the result of heeling, and possible overloading.

The distance between the injection (with the elbow that raises the
injection
up)
on the new Yanmar YM series is 16 inches above the prop shaft. While this
may
work out on a newer small, fin keel boat, this will very likely be well
below
the waterline on a more tradition full keel design where the engine sits
deeper.
And, if you subtract some for heeling and overloading, its actually hard to
imagine a setup (other than very small boat) where the injection point
isn't
potentially at the waterline.

BTW, my boat, and my previous boat, has a siphon break. I was on a 43 foot
cruising boat today with a Perkins 4-108 where we determined the injection
point
was just about at the waterline.

Once again, jax proves he knows about as much about boats as the Tidy Bowl
Man.



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
oxxy, it is forbidden to have the water injection point below the
waterline,
except the rare case when it must be. But that rare case was not the
boat
under discussion.

"Jeff Morris"
scribbled thusly:

You can backpedal and nitpick that the water injection line is not part
of
the
direct path of the exhaust gases, but its pretty clear that everyone
considers
it part of the exhaust system.



You're learning Jeff.
This is where Jocks will claim victory.
He'll be wrong as usual calling it the raw water system or some such
other but hey. that's Jocks.


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

More incredible things learned usenet
 

dum-dum, the water injection unit on a properly installed water injection unit
is a *minimum* of 6 inches above the waterline at any to be expected angle of
heel. check it out and stop googling sites written by those as badly informed
as you are.

jefffies, you are spouting your ill-informed opinion.

having the water injection point anywhere near the waterline is forbidden
(not
to mention stupid) unless there is no other way possible.

No, you're wrong as usual. It is a definately forbidden to have the
injection
point near the waterline with the appropriate protection, such as a siphon
break. I even posted the ABYC guideline.

Given the geometry of the most commonly used engine (and most others), and
taking into account heel angle and an extra margin for overloading, there's
less
than a foot between the injection and prop shaft. Since one wants to
minimize
the down angle (15 degrees is the max, but under 8 degrees is better), you'd
have to put the engine in the bow to ensure the injection point is always
above
the waterline.

Here's a diagram of the boat in question, a Pearson 30. Its pretty clear to
see
that even with an extreme angle, the engine is completely below the
waterline.
A siphon break is obviously required.
http://pearsoninfo.net/30/30.htm





This is total nonsense. It is quite common, even likely, that the
injection
point will be at or near the waterline. Even if its nominally above, one
must
add the result of heeling, and possible overloading.

The distance between the injection (with the elbow that raises the
injection
up)
on the new Yanmar YM series is 16 inches above the prop shaft. While this
may
work out on a newer small, fin keel boat, this will very likely be well
below
the waterline on a more tradition full keel design where the engine sits
deeper.
And, if you subtract some for heeling and overloading, its actually hard
to
imagine a setup (other than very small boat) where the injection point
isn't
potentially at the waterline.

BTW, my boat, and my previous boat, has a siphon break. I was on a 43
foot
cruising boat today with a Perkins 4-108 where we determined the injection
point
was just about at the waterline.

Once again, jax proves he knows about as much about boats as the Tidy Bowl
Man.



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
oxxy, it is forbidden to have the water injection point below the
waterline,
except the rare case when it must be. But that rare case was not the
boat
under discussion.

"Jeff Morris"
scribbled thusly:

You can backpedal and nitpick that the water injection line is not
part
of
the
direct path of the exhaust gases, but its pretty clear that everyone
considers
it part of the exhaust system.



You're learning Jeff.
This is where Jocks will claim victory.
He'll be wrong as usual calling it the raw water system or some such
other but hey. that's Jocks.


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

More incredible things learned usenet
 

Where does it say that? - please give us a link. You keep spouting this
nonsense but all of the experts are against you.

I have the ABYC standards, they don't say that; instead they recommend a siphon
break. In fact, they say it is "recommended in applications where the exhaust
manifold may be below the waterline at any angle of heel." Not just the
"injection point," but the exhaust manifold in general. From the diagram of the
P30 I posted, its pretty clear that the exhaust manifold is below the waterline
at rest, with normal loading; it only gets worse from there. In fact, using a
Yanmar YM engine, you barely have a "propeller radius" between the manifold and
the prop shaft. Its pretty clear that a siphon break will be required on a
large number of boats. In fact, the boat that didn't need it would be an
exception.



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
dum-dum, the water injection unit on a properly installed water injection unit
is a *minimum* of 6 inches above the waterline at any to be expected angle of
heel. check it out and stop googling sites written by those as badly informed
as you are.

jefffies, you are spouting your ill-informed opinion.

having the water injection point anywhere near the waterline is forbidden
(not
to mention stupid) unless there is no other way possible.

No, you're wrong as usual. It is a definately forbidden to have the
injection
point near the waterline with the appropriate protection, such as a siphon
break. I even posted the ABYC guideline.

Given the geometry of the most commonly used engine (and most others), and
taking into account heel angle and an extra margin for overloading, there's
less
than a foot between the injection and prop shaft. Since one wants to
minimize
the down angle (15 degrees is the max, but under 8 degrees is better), you'd
have to put the engine in the bow to ensure the injection point is always
above
the waterline.

Here's a diagram of the boat in question, a Pearson 30. Its pretty clear to
see
that even with an extreme angle, the engine is completely below the
waterline.
A siphon break is obviously required.
http://pearsoninfo.net/30/30.htm





This is total nonsense. It is quite common, even likely, that the
injection
point will be at or near the waterline. Even if its nominally above, one
must
add the result of heeling, and possible overloading.

The distance between the injection (with the elbow that raises the
injection
up)
on the new Yanmar YM series is 16 inches above the prop shaft. While this
may
work out on a newer small, fin keel boat, this will very likely be well
below
the waterline on a more tradition full keel design where the engine sits
deeper.
And, if you subtract some for heeling and overloading, its actually hard
to
imagine a setup (other than very small boat) where the injection point
isn't
potentially at the waterline.

BTW, my boat, and my previous boat, has a siphon break. I was on a 43
foot
cruising boat today with a Perkins 4-108 where we determined the injection
point
was just about at the waterline.

Once again, jax proves he knows about as much about boats as the Tidy Bowl
Man.



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
oxxy, it is forbidden to have the water injection point below the
waterline,
except the rare case when it must be. But that rare case was not the
boat
under discussion.

"Jeff Morris"
scribbled thusly:

You can backpedal and nitpick that the water injection line is not
part
of
the
direct path of the exhaust gases, but its pretty clear that everyone
considers
it part of the exhaust system.



You're learning Jeff.
This is where Jocks will claim victory.
He'll be wrong as usual calling it the raw water system or some such
other but hey. that's Jocks.


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

More incredible things learned usenet
 

It's pretty obvious from that diagram that when the gasses in the
exhaust cool they will suck in water 'round the exhaiust loop which will
then try to fill the engine... without a siphon break... as I said.

Cheers


Jeff Morris wrote:

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...

jefffies, you are spouting your ill-informed opinion.

having the water injection point anywhere near the waterline is forbidden (not
to mention stupid) unless there is no other way possible.


No, you're wrong as usual. It is a definately forbidden to have the injection
point near the waterline with the appropriate protection, such as a siphon
break. I even posted the ABYC guideline.

Given the geometry of the most commonly used engine (and most others), and
taking into account heel angle and an extra margin for overloading, there's less
than a foot between the injection and prop shaft. Since one wants to minimize
the down angle (15 degrees is the max, but under 8 degrees is better), you'd
have to put the engine in the bow to ensure the injection point is always above
the waterline.

Here's a diagram of the boat in question, a Pearson 30. Its pretty clear to see
that even with an extreme angle, the engine is completely below the waterline.
A siphon break is obviously required.
http://pearsoninfo.net/30/30.htm





This is total nonsense. It is quite common, even likely, that the injection
point will be at or near the waterline. Even if its nominally above, one
must
add the result of heeling, and possible overloading.

The distance between the injection (with the elbow that raises the injection
up)
on the new Yanmar YM series is 16 inches above the prop shaft. While this
may
work out on a newer small, fin keel boat, this will very likely be well below
the waterline on a more tradition full keel design where the engine sits
deeper.
And, if you subtract some for heeling and overloading, its actually hard to
imagine a setup (other than very small boat) where the injection point isn't
potentially at the waterline.

BTW, my boat, and my previous boat, has a siphon break. I was on a 43 foot
cruising boat today with a Perkins 4-108 where we determined the injection
point
was just about at the waterline.

Once again, jax proves he knows about as much about boats as the Tidy Bowl
Man.



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...

oxxy, it is forbidden to have the water injection point below the

waterline,

except the rare case when it must be. But that rare case was not the boat
under discussion.


"Jeff Morris"
scribbled thusly:


You can backpedal and nitpick that the water injection line is not part

of

the

direct path of the exhaust gases, but its pretty clear that everyone

considers

it part of the exhaust system.




You're learning Jeff.
This is where Jocks will claim victory.
He'll be wrong as usual calling it the raw water system or some such
other but hey. that's Jocks.


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

More incredible things learned usenet
 

RTFM, jeffies, RTFM

Where does it say that? - please give us a link. You keep spouting this
nonsense but all of the experts are against you.

I have the ABYC standards, they don't say that; instead they recommend a
siphon
break. In fact, they say it is "recommended in applications where the
exhaust
manifold may be below the waterline at any angle of heel." Not just the
"injection point," but the exhaust manifold in general. From the diagram of
the
P30 I posted, its pretty clear that the exhaust manifold is below the
waterline
at rest, with normal loading; it only gets worse from there. In fact, using
a
Yanmar YM engine, you barely have a "propeller radius" between the manifold
and
the prop shaft. Its pretty clear that a siphon break will be required on a
large number of boats. In fact, the boat that didn't need it would be an
exception.



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
dum-dum, the water injection unit on a properly installed water injection
unit
is a *minimum* of 6 inches above the waterline at any to be expected angle
of
heel. check it out and stop googling sites written by those as badly
informed
as you are.

jefffies, you are spouting your ill-informed opinion.

having the water injection point anywhere near the waterline is
forbidden
(not
to mention stupid) unless there is no other way possible.

No, you're wrong as usual. It is a definately forbidden to have the
injection
point near the waterline with the appropriate protection, such as a siphon
break. I even posted the ABYC guideline.

Given the geometry of the most commonly used engine (and most others), and
taking into account heel angle and an extra margin for overloading,
there's
less
than a foot between the injection and prop shaft. Since one wants to
minimize
the down angle (15 degrees is the max, but under 8 degrees is better),
you'd
have to put the engine in the bow to ensure the injection point is always
above
the waterline.

Here's a diagram of the boat in question, a Pearson 30. Its pretty clear
to
see
that even with an extreme angle, the engine is completely below the
waterline.
A siphon break is obviously required.
http://pearsoninfo.net/30/30.htm





This is total nonsense. It is quite common, even likely, that the
injection
point will be at or near the waterline. Even if its nominally above,
one
must
add the result of heeling, and possible overloading.

The distance between the injection (with the elbow that raises the
injection
up)
on the new Yanmar YM series is 16 inches above the prop shaft. While
this
may
work out on a newer small, fin keel boat, this will very likely be well
below
the waterline on a more tradition full keel design where the engine
sits
deeper.
And, if you subtract some for heeling and overloading, its actually
hard
to
imagine a setup (other than very small boat) where the injection point
isn't
potentially at the waterline.

BTW, my boat, and my previous boat, has a siphon break. I was on a 43
foot
cruising boat today with a Perkins 4-108 where we determined the
injection
point
was just about at the waterline.

Once again, jax proves he knows about as much about boats as the Tidy
Bowl
Man.



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
oxxy, it is forbidden to have the water injection point below the
waterline,
except the rare case when it must be. But that rare case was not the
boat
under discussion.

"Jeff Morris"
scribbled thusly:

You can backpedal and nitpick that the water injection line is not
part
of
the
direct path of the exhaust gases, but its pretty clear that
everyone
considers
it part of the exhaust system.



You're learning Jeff.
This is where Jocks will claim victory.
He'll be wrong as usual calling it the raw water system or some such
other but hey. that's Jocks.


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

More incredible things learned usenet
 

naive, that is absolutely no such force in nature called "suck", therefore the
exhaust gases can not such the water around the elbow.

have you any idea at all how a siphon works??

obviously not.

think about it, naive, just what in hell _pushes_ the water "around the elbow"?
When the engine is running the exhaust gases do, when the engine is not
running, what?

It's pretty obvious from that diagram that when the gasses in the
exhaust cool they will suck in water 'round the exhaiust loop which will
then try to fill the engine... without a siphon break... as I said.

Cheers


Jeff Morris wrote:

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...

jefffies, you are spouting your ill-informed opinion.

having the water injection point anywhere near the waterline is forbidden
(not
to mention stupid) unless there is no other way possible.


No, you're wrong as usual. It is a definately forbidden to have the
injection
point near the waterline with the appropriate protection, such as a siphon
break. I even posted the ABYC guideline.

Given the geometry of the most commonly used engine (and most others), and
taking into account heel angle and an extra margin for overloading, there's
less
than a foot between the injection and prop shaft. Since one wants to
minimize
the down angle (15 degrees is the max, but under 8 degrees is better),
you'd
have to put the engine in the bow to ensure the injection point is always
above
the waterline.

Here's a diagram of the boat in question, a Pearson 30. Its pretty clear
to see
that even with an extreme angle, the engine is completely below the
waterline.
A siphon break is obviously required.
http://pearsoninfo.net/30/30.htm





This is total nonsense. It is quite common, even likely, that the
injection
point will be at or near the waterline. Even if its nominally above, one
must
add the result of heeling, and possible overloading.

The distance between the injection (with the elbow that raises the
injection
up)
on the new Yanmar YM series is 16 inches above the prop shaft. While this
may
work out on a newer small, fin keel boat, this will very likely be well
below
the waterline on a more tradition full keel design where the engine sits
deeper.
And, if you subtract some for heeling and overloading, its actually hard
to
imagine a setup (other than very small boat) where the injection point
isn't
potentially at the waterline.

BTW, my boat, and my previous boat, has a siphon break. I was on a 43
foot
cruising boat today with a Perkins 4-108 where we determined the injection
point
was just about at the waterline.

Once again, jax proves he knows about as much about boats as the Tidy Bowl
Man.



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...

oxxy, it is forbidden to have the water injection point below the

waterline,

except the rare case when it must be. But that rare case was not the
boat
under discussion.


"Jeff Morris"
scribbled thusly:


You can backpedal and nitpick that the water injection line is not part

of

the

direct path of the exhaust gases, but its pretty clear that everyone

considers

it part of the exhaust system.




You're learning Jeff.
This is where Jocks will claim victory.
He'll be wrong as usual calling it the raw water system or some such
other but hey. that's Jocks.


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

More incredible things learned usenet
 

I have the manual, jaxie, have you even seen it? What part of "recommended in
applications where the exhaust manifold may be below the waterline at any angle
of heel." is too complicated for you to understand? Or are you claiming that
the ABYC doe snot know what they're talking about?

I showed the diagram of the P30, it is clear the engine is completely below the
waterline, and this is a typical situation.

The standards are clear and explicit. Why do you continue to demean yourself by
claiming otherwise? This is becoming one of your more embarrassing defeats,
jaxie; just pathetic.




e
"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
RTFM, jeffies, RTFM

Where does it say that? - please give us a link. You keep spouting this
nonsense but all of the experts are against you.

I have the ABYC standards, they don't say that; instead they recommend a
siphon
break. In fact, they say it is "recommended in applications where the
exhaust
manifold may be below the waterline at any angle of heel." Not just the
"injection point," but the exhaust manifold in general. From the diagram of
the
P30 I posted, its pretty clear that the exhaust manifold is below the
waterline
at rest, with normal loading; it only gets worse from there. In fact, using
a
Yanmar YM engine, you barely have a "propeller radius" between the manifold
and
the prop shaft. Its pretty clear that a siphon break will be required on a
large number of boats. In fact, the boat that didn't need it would be an
exception.



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
dum-dum, the water injection unit on a properly installed water injection
unit
is a *minimum* of 6 inches above the waterline at any to be expected angle
of
heel. check it out and stop googling sites written by those as badly
informed
as you are.

jefffies, you are spouting your ill-informed opinion.

having the water injection point anywhere near the waterline is
forbidden
(not
to mention stupid) unless there is no other way possible.

No, you're wrong as usual. It is a definately forbidden to have the
injection
point near the waterline with the appropriate protection, such as a siphon
break. I even posted the ABYC guideline.

Given the geometry of the most commonly used engine (and most others), and
taking into account heel angle and an extra margin for overloading,
there's
less
than a foot between the injection and prop shaft. Since one wants to
minimize
the down angle (15 degrees is the max, but under 8 degrees is better),
you'd
have to put the engine in the bow to ensure the injection point is always
above
the waterline.

Here's a diagram of the boat in question, a Pearson 30. Its pretty clear
to
see
that even with an extreme angle, the engine is completely below the
waterline.
A siphon break is obviously required.
http://pearsoninfo.net/30/30.htm





This is total nonsense. It is quite common, even likely, that the
injection
point will be at or near the waterline. Even if its nominally above,
one
must
add the result of heeling, and possible overloading.

The distance between the injection (with the elbow that raises the
injection
up)
on the new Yanmar YM series is 16 inches above the prop shaft. While
this
may
work out on a newer small, fin keel boat, this will very likely be well
below
the waterline on a more tradition full keel design where the engine
sits
deeper.
And, if you subtract some for heeling and overloading, its actually
hard
to
imagine a setup (other than very small boat) where the injection point
isn't
potentially at the waterline.

BTW, my boat, and my previous boat, has a siphon break. I was on a 43
foot
cruising boat today with a Perkins 4-108 where we determined the
injection
point
was just about at the waterline.

Once again, jax proves he knows about as much about boats as the Tidy
Bowl
Man.



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
oxxy, it is forbidden to have the water injection point below the
waterline,
except the rare case when it must be. But that rare case was not the
boat
under discussion.

"Jeff Morris"
scribbled thusly:

You can backpedal and nitpick that the water injection line is not
part
of
the
direct path of the exhaust gases, but its pretty clear that
everyone
considers
it part of the exhaust system.



You're learning Jeff.
This is where Jocks will claim victory.
He'll be wrong as usual calling it the raw water system or some such
other but hey. that's Jocks.


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

More incredible things learned usenet
 

the P30, it is clear the engine is completely below the
waterline,

no it is not.

and this is a typical situation.

plainly, you have not actually looked at a P30 engine installation.

plainly, you do not understand the issues involved *IF* one is stupid enough to
put the complete water injection system below the waterline. NOT DONE,
jeffies, and if you can not see why just shut up so you don't look so stupid.

NOT DONE.

btw, jeffies, have you ever even seen -- let alone read -- the instructions for
installation of a water injection system? You have? What word didn't you
understand?

no, jeffies, stop once and for all telling us you have an associates degree in
liberal arts physics from some technical college. If you did, no way in hell
would you post what you post. This is easy stuff, jeffies. easy stuff.

More incredible things learned usenet
 

http://www.sailingsource.com/pearson30/images/brocb.jpg

See above. Pearson engine is below the waterline. Only part of the throttle
assembly was above.

RB

More incredible things learned usenet
 

Subject: More incredible things learned usenet
From: (JAXAshby)
Date: 06/04/2004 04:53 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

naive, that is absolutely no such force in nature called "suck"

Lord ..... help me maintain pure thoughts, whilst contemplating the above
statement and considering the source.....

Thank you Lord.... Amen

Shen

More incredible things learned usenet
 

"JAXAshby" showed his ignorance once again with:
the P30, it is clear the engine is completely below the
waterline,

no it is not.

That's odd, two diagrams of the P30 have been posted which show the engine
completely under the waterline, with the possible exception of the forward
corner. The exhaust manifold is completely under, and if the boat heels or a
large crew is in the cockpit, it will be several inches lower.


and this is a typical situation.

plainly, you have not actually looked at a P30 engine installation.

It would seem you never have. Your word isn't worth diddlysquat, compared to
the actual posted specs.



plainly, you do not understand the issues involved *IF* one is stupid enough
to
put the complete water injection system below the waterline. NOT DONE,
jeffies, and if you can not see why just shut up so you don't look so stupid.

It is extremely common, actually the norm for traditional designs (where the
engine sits pretty low) and larger boats. Just go to a boat yard and tell us
how many propellers are close to the waterline.


NOT DONE.

Funny, I was on a 41 foot center cockpit boat today and I checked out the engine
room. The entire engine was at least 4 to 6 inches below the waterline. It was
hard to see how a boat of this general design could have the injection above the
waterline. It was a proper installation, with a siphon break and a high loop in
the exhaust line. Remember, the ABYC standards require a siphon break if the
exhaust manifold is below the waterline, so even the unusual setup of having the
elbow and injection well above the engine requires the siphon break.

Jax, installing the engine below the waterline is done all the time, probably on
a majority of the larger boats. The Practical Sailor article says, "Most
sailboat engines are installed below the boat’s waterline. This means that
special precautions must be taken to prevent seawater from siphoning back into
the engine, with potentially disastrous results."


btw, jeffies, have you ever even seen -- let alone read -- the instructions
for
installation of a water injection system? You have?

OK, I happen to have the Yanmar 20GM20F Installation manual; I have two of these
engines, both of which were installed with siphon breaks. The book says: "When
the water outlet of the engine is below the waterline: In this case attach a
vacuum valve to the elbow of the cooling water pipe." It then has a picture
showing a loop with a siphon break 300 mm above the waterline, and a loop in the
exhaust, 350 mm above the waterline. There was not a single comment indicating
this was an inferior installation.

What word didn't you understand?

Sound pretty clear to me, what part of it do you not understand?

I've shown the ABYC standards, the engine installation instructions, the
comments of recognized experts. None of them even hint that there is any truth
to your claims. All you've done is to keep repeating your flawed advice. It
doesn't matter how often you repeat it, its still wrong.


no, jeffies, stop once and for all telling us you have an associates degree in
liberal arts physics from some technical college. If you did, no way in hell
would you post what you post. This is easy stuff, jeffies. easy stuff.


You soiled yourself pretty badly with this one jaxie; better go home to mommie
and change your pants.

More incredible things learned usenet
 

the water injection system is above the waterline. Notice that the water
injection system is not shown in the line drawing, but that the aft end of the
manifold is _at_ the waterline. The exhaust makes a 90* turn up from there,
rises to 6 inches or more, then the injection system is installed and the water
falls downward. The water injection opens into an area above the waterline.

Notice also that no anti-siphon valve, and tubing from/to, is shown in the line
drawing as well.




http://www.sailingsource.com/pearson30/images/brocb.jpg

See above. Pearson engine is below the waterline. Only part of the throttle
assembly was above.

RB

More incredible things learned usenet
 

shen utters thusly:

[snip all but the important stuff]

More incredible things learned usenet
 

jeffies, that line drawing from an advertising brochure does NOT show any
anti-siphon valve at all. Duh.

btw, it also doesn't show the water injection system, which *is*above the water
line.

jeffies? why oh why do you have such a hard time understanding just what makes
a siphon viable or not?

the P30, it is clear the engine is completely below the
waterline,

no it is not.

That's odd, two diagrams of the P30 have been posted which show the engine
completely under the waterline, with the possible exception of the forward
corner. The exhaust manifold is completely under, and if the boat heels or a
large crew is in the cockpit, it will be several inches lower.


and this is a typical situation.

plainly, you have not actually looked at a P30 engine installation.

It would seem you never have. Your word isn't worth diddlysquat, compared to
the actual posted specs.



plainly, you do not understand the issues involved *IF* one is stupid
enough
to
put the complete water injection system below the waterline. NOT DONE,
jeffies, and if you can not see why just shut up so you don't look so
stupid.

It is extremely common, actually the norm for traditional designs (where the
engine sits pretty low) and larger boats. Just go to a boat yard and tell us
how many propellers are close to the waterline.


NOT DONE.

Funny, I was on a 41 foot center cockpit boat today and I checked out the
engine
room. The entire engine was at least 4 to 6 inches below the waterline. It
was
hard to see how a boat of this general design could have the injection above
the
waterline. It was a proper installation, with a siphon break and a high loop
in
the exhaust line. Remember, the ABYC standards require a siphon break if the
exhaust manifold is below the waterline, so even the unusual setup of having
the
elbow and injection well above the engine requires the siphon break.

Jax, installing the engine below the waterline is done all the time, probably
on
a majority of the larger boats. The Practical Sailor article says, "Most
sailboat engines are installed below the boat’s waterline. This means that
special precautions must be taken to prevent seawater from siphoning back
into
the engine, with potentially disastrous results."


btw, jeffies, have you ever even seen -- let alone read -- the instructions
for
installation of a water injection system? You have?

OK, I happen to have the Yanmar 20GM20F Installation manual; I have two of
these
engines, both of which were installed with siphon breaks. The book says:
"When
the water outlet of the engine is below the waterline: In this case attach a
vacuum valve to the elbow of the cooling water pipe." It then has a picture
showing a loop with a siphon break 300 mm above the waterline, and a loop in
the
exhaust, 350 mm above the waterline. There was not a single comment
indicating
this was an inferior installation.

What word didn't you understand?

Sound pretty clear to me, what part of it do you not understand?

I've shown the ABYC standards, the engine installation instructions, the
comments of recognized experts. None of them even hint that there is any
truth
to your claims. All you've done is to keep repeating your flawed advice. It
doesn't matter how often you repeat it, its still wrong.


no, jeffies, stop once and for all telling us you have an associates degree
in
liberal arts physics from some technical college. If you did, no way in
hell
would you post what you post. This is easy stuff, jeffies. easy stuff.


You soiled yourself pretty badly with this one jaxie; better go home to
mommie
and change your pants.

More incredible things learned usenet
 

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
jeffies, that line drawing from an advertising brochure does NOT show any
anti-siphon valve at all. Duh.

btw, it also doesn't show the water injection system, which *is*above the
water
line.

It doesn't matter, the ABYC standard requires the siphon break if the exhaust
manifold is below water at any angle of heel, with any loading. It sure looks
like that would be the case here.

Further, we know the engine got water in it. Perhaps the standards were written
after a number of these older boats got "flooded."




jeffies? why oh why do you have such a hard time understanding just what
makes
a siphon viable or not?

Jaxie? Why can't you accept what the standards are, what the instructions are,
and what the experts say? You clearly have no knowlege of common practice;
you're just making up bull****. If your claims are correct, you should have no
problem posting a link that back them up. If you can't, you should go home and
change your pants.

More incredible things learned usenet
 

... if the exhaust
manifold ( at the water injection point) is below water at any angle of heel,

no ****, Sherlock. **That** is forbidden. And it only took you nine days to
figger it out.

More incredible things learned usenet
 

btw, it also doesn't show the water injection system, which *is*above the water
line.

Jax, with all due respect, I owned a P30 and had the engine rebuilt. No part of
the engine was above the waterline, except part of the throttle assembly. The
P30 spec sheet shows the A4 below the waterline as did the original P30 manual.
Furthermore, even Don Moyer mentioned this fact to me when discussing the
installation.

RB

More incredible things learned usenet
 

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
... if the exhaust
manifold ( at the water injection point) is below water at any angle of heel,

no ****, Sherlock. **That** is forbidden. And it only took you nine days to
figger it out.

It IS NOT forbidden. It is very common. The requirement is to have a siphon
break. Wake up jaxie, the majority of sailboats are setup like this, including
the boat in question. All your huffin' and puffin' doesn't change the fact that
you made a major blunder and now you're trying to save face.

More incredible things learned usenet
 

then water flooded the exhaust system every time the engine was shut off.

btw, it also doesn't show the water injection system, which *is*above the
water
line.

Jax, with all due respect, I owned a P30 and had the engine rebuilt. No part
of
the engine was above the waterline, except part of the throttle assembly. The
P30 spec sheet shows the A4 below the waterline as did the original P30
manual.
Furthermore, even Don Moyer mentioned this fact to me when discussing the
installation.

RB

More incredible things learned usenet
 

then the exhuast system floods when the engine is shut off if the intake is
left open.

... if the exhaust
manifold ( at the water injection point) is below water at any angle of
heel,

no ****, Sherlock. **That** is forbidden. And it only took you nine days
to
figger it out.

It IS NOT forbidden. It is very common. The requirement is to have a siphon
break. Wake up jaxie, the majority of sailboats are setup like this,
including
the boat in question. All your huffin' and puffin' doesn't change the fact
that
you made a major blunder and now you're trying to save face.

More incredible things learned usenet
 

Why? The siphon break includes a loop that is about a foot above the water.
Do you know what a siphon break is? It would appear not.

Actually, the waterpump impellor normally seals the path, but if a vane were to
break off and go unnoticed, there could be a direct path - hence the need for a
loop and "vacuum valve," commonly called a siphon break.


"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
then the exhuast system floods when the engine is shut off if the intake is
left open.

... if the exhaust
manifold ( at the water injection point) is below water at any angle of
heel,

no ****, Sherlock. **That** is forbidden. And it only took you nine days
to
figger it out.

It IS NOT forbidden. It is very common. The requirement is to have a siphon
break. Wake up jaxie, the majority of sailboats are setup like this,
including
the boat in question. All your huffin' and puffin' doesn't change the fact
that
you made a major blunder and now you're trying to save face.

More incredible things learned usenet
 

Jeff,
I've no stake in this thread but I am curious. The pumps I've worked with
(granted they are not for marine use) don't provide much backflow prevention
when not operating. The rotary vane pumps (we used them for moving gasoline)
depend on centrifugal force (and sometimes small springs) to maintain a
reduced clearance with the housing (and also allow for some wearing of the
vanes). What is the nature of the pump to which you refer?
Scout

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
Why? The siphon break includes a loop that is about a foot above the
water.
Do you know what a siphon break is? It would appear not.

Actually, the waterpump impellor normally seals the path, but if a vane
were to
break off and go unnoticed, there could be a direct path - hence the need
for a
loop and "vacuum valve," commonly called a siphon break.


"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
then the exhuast system floods when the engine is shut off if the intake
is
left open.

... if the exhaust
manifold ( at the water injection point) is below water at any angle
of
heel,

no ****, Sherlock. **That** is forbidden. And it only took you nine
days
to
figger it out.

It IS NOT forbidden. It is very common. The requirement is to have a
siphon
break. Wake up jaxie, the majority of sailboats are setup like this,
including
the boat in question. All your huffin' and puffin' doesn't change the
fact
that
you made a major blunder and now you're trying to save face.

More incredible things learned usenet
 

Actually, the waterpump impellor normally seals the path,

not true. normally it does not.

More incredible things learned usenet
 

then water flooded the exhaust system every time the engine was shut off.

Water lift muffler.

RB

More incredible things learned usenet
 

water pumps in sailboat engine usually are a rubber vaned pump mounted offset
in a housing. As the impeller turns the vanes open up, scoop up water and
move towards the restriction of the offset where the pump outlet is. It works
pretty well and has been used on outboards for at least 65 years that I am
aware of. The vanes seal against the housing but the seal is nowhere near
absolute. If the seal were absolute this total discussion would never have
taken place.

Jeff,
I've no stake in this thread but I am curious. The pumps I've worked with
(granted they are not for marine use) don't provide much backflow prevention
when not operating. The rotary vane pumps (we used them for moving gasoline)
depend on centrifugal force (and sometimes small springs) to maintain a
reduced clearance with the housing (and also allow for some wearing of the
vanes). What is the nature of the pump to which you refer?
Scout

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
Why? The siphon break includes a loop that is about a foot above the
water.
Do you know what a siphon break is? It would appear not.

Actually, the waterpump impellor normally seals the path, but if a vane
were to
break off and go unnoticed, there could be a direct path - hence the need
for a
loop and "vacuum valve," commonly called a siphon break.


"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
then the exhuast system floods when the engine is shut off if the intake
is
left open.

... if the exhaust
manifold ( at the water injection point) is below water at any angle
of
heel,

no ****, Sherlock. **That** is forbidden. And it only took you nine
days
to
figger it out.

It IS NOT forbidden. It is very common. The requirement is to have a
siphon
break. Wake up jaxie, the majority of sailboats are setup like this,
including
the boat in question. All your huffin' and puffin' doesn't change the
fact
that
you made a major blunder and now you're trying to save face.