Which window shape?
 

The windows on my boat need to be replaced. They're fitted into those
old-style channelled rubber strips that are used to hold vehicle windows in
place - the rubbers are rather perished and the acrylic is clouded and
crazed. I'm considering putting tinted acrylic on the outside of the cabin -
any thoughts on the wisdom of this approach?

By fitting on the outside surface, I have the opportunity to change the
window shape - here's a couple of side views of my vast, ocean-going,
18-foot mega-yacht, showing the original window shape, and the proposed new
shape...

http://community.webshots.com/album/136291482TgUkPQ


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk/music

Which window shape?
 

Wally, I see nothing wrong with you alternate, more modern window. Looks good,
though I think I prefer the original by a slight margin.

RB

Which window shape?
 

I like the new version you've designed. It has better lines and looks more
rakish.
I would think you would want to cut the opening to match and place the
tinted panel on the inside though if you intend to reseal the works with a
rubber strip again.

Will you be beveling the edges of the new acrylic panels prior to outside
mounting to reduce water entrapment and possible leak development?

CM




"Wally" wrote in message
...
| The windows on my boat need to be replaced. They're fitted into those
| old-style channelled rubber strips that are used to hold vehicle windows
in
| place - the rubbers are rather perished and the acrylic is clouded and
| crazed. I'm considering putting tinted acrylic on the outside of the
cabin -
| any thoughts on the wisdom of this approach?
|
| By fitting on the outside surface, I have the opportunity to change the
| window shape - here's a couple of side views of my vast, ocean-going,
| 18-foot mega-yacht, showing the original window shape, and the proposed
new
| shape...
|
| http://community.webshots.com/album/136291482TgUkPQ
|
|
| --
| Wally
| www.artbywally.com
| www.wally.myby.co.uk/music
|
|

Which window shape?
 

Capt. Mooron wrote:

I like the new version you've designed. It has better lines and looks
more rakish.

It came out better than I was expecting. I also removed the stanchions and
lifelines, so it looks cleaner in the doctored photo.


I would think you would want to cut the opening to match ...

Not keen on that - I'd be concerned about weakening the structure. I think
there's a (hollow GRP?) beam on the inside, forward of the leading edge of
the existing windows - the mast is deck-stepped.


... and place the
tinted panel on the inside though if you intend to reseal the works
with a rubber strip again.

I wouldn't be using the same type of rubber strip (where the window is cut
smaller than the hole), but something flat that goes between the surfaces.
Someone mentioned (elsewhere) that butyl tape between the acrylic and the
cabin wall would make a good seal. I've seen this stuff mentioned as sealing
in building work that I've been involved with, so I guess it's pretty good -
not as sticky as mastic, but tackier than plain rubber. It should apply in a
nice straight line, rather than squidge like gooey sealer would, and it
should be easier to remove if I ever have to replace a window.


Will you be beveling the edges of the new acrylic panels prior to
outside mounting to reduce water entrapment and possible leak
development?

Yes, they'd be fared towards the surface of the cabin side, with the sealing
strip brought to the edge of the acrylic. Screws/bolts at about 2" centres.
The likely shape is a bevel, with the remaining angle radiused - the
smoother the transition, the less likely it is to be painful if anyone takes
a knock against the edge (works on guitar scratchplates, so...).


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk/music

Which window shape?
 

Bobsprit wrote:
Wally, I see nothing wrong with you alternate, more modern window.
Looks good, though I think I prefer the original by a slight margin.

The new shape makes the boat look half its age. :-)


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk/music

Which window shape?
 

Capt. Mooron wrote:
I like the new version you've designed. It has better lines and looks
more rakish.


Hmm-mm. Is "rakish" good? To me it sounds like a lawn care product....


Wally wrote:
It came out better than I was expecting. I also removed the stanchions and
lifelines, so it looks cleaner in the doctored photo.

Yes but it would look better without those in any case. A better
comparison would be with (harder to draw in, I know)

I would think you would want to cut the opening to match ...


Not keen on that - I'd be concerned about weakening the structure. I think
there's a (hollow GRP?) beam on the inside, forward of the leading edge of
the existing windows - the mast is deck-stepped.

I'd be very afraid of weakening the structure... DON'T cut that beam...
in fact don't cut within 3 or 4 inches of it. The fiberglass flange
where it joins the coach roof molding is sure to be a structural
element. You can add fiberglass channels around the edge of the new port
opening for stiffness, but it'd be a major engineering job to design &
build a new mast step support.

The plus side of bigger windows is more light inside (the tint looks
cool, but don't overdo it). The downside is a weaker coach roof.

I'd put the acrylic on the outside, beveled, onto a mated surface around
the edge of the port, and use small screws only to hold it in place
while the 5200 dries.

The more time & work you put into the edges, both the seating to the new
port and the channel around the inside, the stronger & tighter it will
be. I've seen this kind of thing done well on a few boats... seen a
botched "quickie" job dozens of times (including on a boat we were
considering buying until we got a close look at this and many other
owner customized bits).

Hope this helps
Doug King

Which window shape?
 

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 13:43:41 +0100, "Wally"
wrote:

The windows on my boat need to be replaced. They're fitted into those
old-style channelled rubber strips that are used to hold vehicle windows in
place - the rubbers are rather perished and the acrylic is clouded and
crazed. I'm considering putting tinted acrylic on the outside of the cabin -
any thoughts on the wisdom of this approach?

By fitting on the outside surface, I have the opportunity to change the
window shape - here's a couple of side views of my vast, ocean-going,
18-foot mega-yacht, showing the original window shape, and the proposed new
shape...

http://community.webshots.com/album/136291482TgUkPQ

I think the new ones look better. On my previous boat, a C&C 33-II,
the portlights were long and "rakish" and were attached to the outside
of the cabin top. Because there was a bit of curve to the side of the
cabin top, the portlights were required to stay in place with a bit of
bend, which they did not want to do. The previous owner had replaced
them once and there were a number of small screws which attempted to
hold the portlights in place, in addition to a sealant and tape and
they still leaked. Actually if you read the C&C mail list, leaking
portlights are a huge topic of conversation. I think anytime you get
too long a portlight with no frame, you may be asking for trouble,
especially if there is any bend required. If your mounting surface is
fair and flat, you are in much better shape.

Hopefully I misread Doug's post about using 5200 for mounting the
windows. My current portlights, which are frameless, are installed
with GE Silpruf, which seems to work well. These portlights are
installed into a routed groove around the opening so that the
plexiglass sits into the groove, just flush with the cabintop, and
has a bead of Silpruf around both the inside and the outside. There
are 4 small screws which are angled into the top and bottom which
basically hold the portlights in place while the Silpruf cures. These
screws don't penetrate the plexiglass, they just hold the portlights
at the edge. These portlights don't leak.

Good luck. I like the design, but I would be careful about doing too
much cutting for structural reasons.

Which window shape?
 

felton wrote:
Hopefully I misread Doug's post about using 5200 for mounting the
windows.

5200 won't stick to Lexan IIRC, I thought it wouold stick to acrylic
polycarbonate? Anyway, there are a lot of good adhesive sealants on the
market and it's part of the prep for the job to find out which one will
work best. I happen to like 5200 & 4200 but realize that there are some
things they won't work on. Sikaflex?

DSK

Which window shape?
 

We're in the process of having two windows redone. The person who's
going to do it for us claims that the proper sealant is quite toxic.. some
"professional grade" product. I believe the windows are some sort of
polycarbonate, but I'm not certain. Do you have any info about the
toxicity of these type of sealants? What's there now is ugly and leaks,
so it's got to get redone.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"DSK" wrote in message
. ..
felton wrote:
Hopefully I misread Doug's post about using 5200 for mounting the
windows.

5200 won't stick to Lexan IIRC, I thought it wouold stick to acrylic
polycarbonate? Anyway, there are a lot of good adhesive sealants on the
market and it's part of the prep for the job to find out which one will
work best. I happen to like 5200 & 4200 but realize that there are some
things they won't work on. Sikaflex?

DSK

Which window shape?
 

Jonathan Ganz wrote:
We're in the process of having two windows redone. The person who's
going to do it for us claims that the proper sealant is quite toxic.. some
"professional grade" product. I believe the windows are some sort of
polycarbonate, but I'm not certain.

You should find out for sure what it is. A professional would not be
concerned with keeping a secret about what materials he used on a
customer's boat. The best professionals I've worked with would go out of
their way to make sure the customer knows what materials are used and
how to best care for them.

... Do you have any info about the
toxicity of these type of sealants?

There is such a wide variety, it's impossible to say. For example, 5200
is a butyl isocyanate, so it's not exactly healthy stuff to eat or
inhale. But it's not in the same class as Agent Orange or enriched
plutonium...

What you want is the MSDS (material safety data sheet) for the stuff
being used. They are easily googled: here is the one for 5200

http://www.tapplastics.com/uploads/p...00%20White.pdf

... What's there now is ugly and leaks,
so it's got to get redone.

Your boat *leaks*??? Get out!!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Which window shape?
 

DSK wrote:

Yes but it would look better without those in any case. A better
comparison would be with (harder to draw in, I know)

(With?) I've added a photo showing the original window shape, but with the
stanchions and lifelines removed.


I'd be very afraid of weakening the structure... DON'T cut that
beam... in fact don't cut within 3 or 4 inches of it. The fiberglass
flange where it joins the coach roof molding is sure to be a
structural element. You can add fiberglass channels around the edge
of the new port opening for stiffness, but it'd be a major
engineering job to design & build a new mast step support.

I'm not planning to cut the opening at all. The new shape is basically a
go-faster stripe.


The plus side of bigger windows is more light inside (the tint looks
cool, but don't overdo it). The downside is a weaker coach roof.

The reason for going for a tint is to disguise the outline of the aperture
underneath - I may darken the GRP around the aperture if it shows through
the tint. It could do with some more light inside, and I'm looking into the
possibility of putting a Houdini-type hatch on the cabin roof forward of the
mast. It has a little 'ventilight' thing there at the moment. I think some
MkI Foxcubs (the Super model, perhaps) were fitted with a Houdini in this
location, so I think it will be okay structurally.


I'd put the acrylic on the outside, beveled, onto a mated surface
around the edge of the port, and use small screws only to hold it in
place while the 5200 dries.

Is that an adhesive sealant? If so, would there be problems with trying to
remove a window later? I was thinking of tacky butyl tape (squidgy and
compressible) with lots of screws.


The more time & work you put into the edges, both the seating to the
new port and the channel around the inside, the stronger & tighter it
will be. I've seen this kind of thing done well on a few boats...
seen a botched "quickie" job dozens of times (including on a boat we
were considering buying until we got a close look at this and many
other owner customized bits).

Well, the boat's a bit tatty and isn't really worth the effort to bring it
to anything approaching a concours finish. Neat, waterproof, and
maintainable are the main aims with the windows.


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk/music

Which window shape?
 

felton wrote:

I think the new ones look better. On my previous boat, a C&C 33-II,
the portlights were long and "rakish" and were attached to the outside
of the cabin top. Because there was a bit of curve to the side of the
cabin top, the portlights were required to stay in place with a bit of
bend, which they did not want to do. The previous owner had replaced
them once and there were a number of small screws which attempted to
hold the portlights in place, in addition to a sealant and tape and
they still leaked. Actually if you read the C&C mail list, leaking
portlights are a huge topic of conversation. I think anytime you get
too long a portlight with no frame, you may be asking for trouble,
especially if there is any bend required. If your mounting surface is
fair and flat, you are in much better shape.

There is a slight curve on mine, but it's pretty-slab-sided. If there's any
sort of compound curve, it's *very* slight. I'll be having a close look at
this to make sure. I see a lot of boats with the acrylic on the outside,
fixings every 2" or so, and a run of seal under the line of fixings - I'm
leaning towards that methof at present.


Hopefully I misread Doug's post about using 5200 for mounting the
windows. My current portlights, which are frameless, are installed
with GE Silpruf, which seems to work well. These portlights are
installed into a routed groove around the opening so that the
plexiglass sits into the groove, just flush with the cabintop, and
has a bead of Silpruf around both the inside and the outside. There
are 4 small screws which are angled into the top and bottom which
basically hold the portlights in place while the Silpruf cures. These
screws don't penetrate the plexiglass, they just hold the portlights
at the edge. These portlights don't leak.

Any issues with removal? Is there likely to be a real need to remove the
windows at some point in the future?


Good luck. I like the design, but I would be careful about doing too
much cutting for structural reasons.

No cutting. :-)



--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk/music

Which window shape?
 

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 08:47:30 -0700, "Jonathan Ganz"
wrote:

We're in the process of having two windows redone. The person who's
going to do it for us claims that the proper sealant is quite toxic.. some
"professional grade" product. I believe the windows are some sort of
polycarbonate, but I'm not certain. Do you have any info about the
toxicity of these type of sealants? What's there now is ugly and leaks,
so it's got to get redone.

What sort of boat? Are the portlights in frames or frameless?

I am not sure what sort of product he is talking about. Was it Plexus
by any chance? From my days on the C&C list, where folks are quite
experienced in *attempting* to install leak resistant portlights,
Plexus was sometimes mentioned. If memory serves, that might be a two
part product that is a lot more like a glue. Based on my experience,
which is hardly exhaustive, I think the key to leak-free portlights is
a good design in the first place, together with a forgiving and easily
removed/replaced sealant. My C&C had a VERY poor portlight design.
It was an unframed, thin, long piece of *something* (dark lexan,
acrylic, plexiglass) that came to a sharply pointed taper at the
forward end and was expected to cling to the outside of a curved cabin
top. The hot sun would heat things up and things would try to move a
bit against the screws and everything would start to break down and
leak. I don't think that the Plexus would have been a solution for
me, but I never tried it. I try never to do anything that won't let
me remove or replace in the future.

On my current boat, the cabin portlights are also unframed, but are
divided into two smaller portlights, each of which is set into the
routed, recessed openings. The instructions for replacing the
portlights, or rebedding them, is to run a bead of white GE Silpruf
around the inside edge of the portlight opening. Then carefully set
the portlights in place against this sealant/adhesive. There are 4
very small screws, two top and two bottom that are then screwed in
around the top and bottom edges of the portlights to hold them in
place. A larger bead of black GE Silpruf is then applied around the
outside edge of the portlights and faired after it has set up enough
to be worked without still being too "gooey". They won't leak when
designed and bedded this way. (The white inner bead is just for
aesthetics so as not to have black Silpruf all over the white gelcoat
inside the boat).

I like the GE Silpruf product. It is often used to install those
glass panel windows on commercial buildings. Sabre recommends that
for their portlights, which is what I used. I subsequently learned
from my parts buddy at Valiant that they use a lot of it as well. It
is pretty inexpensive. About $6 for one of those caulk gun size
tubes. It doesn't harden and crack, which is where the leaks first
develop. The previous owner of my boat had apparently used Boat Life
and it was a hard, cracked mess.

Which window shape?
 

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:09:29 +0100, "Wally"
wrote:

felton wrote:

I think the new ones look better. On my previous boat, a C&C 33-II,
the portlights were long and "rakish" and were attached to the outside
of the cabin top. Because there was a bit of curve to the side of the
cabin top, the portlights were required to stay in place with a bit of
bend, which they did not want to do. The previous owner had replaced
them once and there were a number of small screws which attempted to
hold the portlights in place, in addition to a sealant and tape and
they still leaked. Actually if you read the C&C mail list, leaking
portlights are a huge topic of conversation. I think anytime you get
too long a portlight with no frame, you may be asking for trouble,
especially if there is any bend required. If your mounting surface is
fair and flat, you are in much better shape.

There is a slight curve on mine, but it's pretty-slab-sided. If there's any
sort of compound curve, it's *very* slight. I'll be having a close look at
this to make sure. I see a lot of boats with the acrylic on the outside,
fixings every 2" or so, and a run of seal under the line of fixings - I'm
leaning towards that methof at present.

Check and see how much bend. Bend is not your friend, as that lexan
(or whatever you use) won't want to stay bent. The bigger or longer
the piece, the bigger the issue. I agree that you see where folks
have drilled and installed exterior screws through the portlight into
the cabin top (slightly larger holes in the lexan to allow for
movement). That just strikes me as a bad design. Lots of holes, but
perhaps unavoidable.



Hopefully I misread Doug's post about using 5200 for mounting the
windows. My current portlights, which are frameless, are installed
with GE Silpruf, which seems to work well. These portlights are
installed into a routed groove around the opening so that the
plexiglass sits into the groove, just flush with the cabintop, and
has a bead of Silpruf around both the inside and the outside. There
are 4 small screws which are angled into the top and bottom which
basically hold the portlights in place while the Silpruf cures. These
screws don't penetrate the plexiglass, they just hold the portlights
at the edge. These portlights don't leak.

Any issues with removal? Is there likely to be a real need to remove the
windows at some point in the future?

Not if you are selling the boat before the things start leaking in the
future, but otherwise, yes:) Given time, everyhting needs to be
rebedded periodically, or the portlight material will become crazed,
brittle or otherwise in need of replacement. You don't want to tear
up your cabintop getting them out.


Good luck. I like the design, but I would be careful about doing too
much cutting for structural reasons.

No cutting. :-)

Which window shape?
 

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:04:02 +0100, "Wally"
wrote:

DSK wrote:

Yes but it would look better without those in any case. A better
comparison would be with (harder to draw in, I know)

(With?) I've added a photo showing the original window shape, but with the
stanchions and lifelines removed.


I'd be very afraid of weakening the structure... DON'T cut that
beam... in fact don't cut within 3 or 4 inches of it. The fiberglass
flange where it joins the coach roof molding is sure to be a
structural element. You can add fiberglass channels around the edge
of the new port opening for stiffness, but it'd be a major
engineering job to design & build a new mast step support.

I'm not planning to cut the opening at all. The new shape is basically a
go-faster stripe.


The plus side of bigger windows is more light inside (the tint looks
cool, but don't overdo it). The downside is a weaker coach roof.

The reason for going for a tint is to disguise the outline of the aperture
underneath - I may darken the GRP around the aperture if it shows through
the tint. It could do with some more light inside, and I'm looking into the
possibility of putting a Houdini-type hatch on the cabin roof forward of the
mast. It has a little 'ventilight' thing there at the moment. I think some
MkI Foxcubs (the Super model, perhaps) were fitted with a Houdini in this
location, so I think it will be okay structurally.


I'd put the acrylic on the outside, beveled, onto a mated surface
around the edge of the port, and use small screws only to hold it in
place while the 5200 dries.

Is that an adhesive sealant? If so, would there be problems with trying to
remove a window later? I was thinking of tacky butyl tape (squidgy and
compressible) with lots of screws.

That is how the cabintop portlights were installed on my last boat.
They leaked, but mostly from the forward end where the portlights came
to a fairly sharp point and where the curve of the cabintop was most
pronounced. The portlight kept wanting to "straighten out" away from
the cabintop and at the same time there was not enough lexan there for
a screw. If your setup wouldn't create as much stress, it might work.



The more time & work you put into the edges, both the seating to the
new port and the channel around the inside, the stronger & tighter it
will be. I've seen this kind of thing done well on a few boats...
seen a botched "quickie" job dozens of times (including on a boat we
were considering buying until we got a close look at this and many
other owner customized bits).

Well, the boat's a bit tatty and isn't really worth the effort to bring it
to anything approaching a concours finish. Neat, waterproof, and
maintainable are the main aims with the windows.

Which window shape?
 

Thanks... it's the windows that leak. I don't think we
usually heal over far enough to worry. Well, not usually.
It's a Yamaha 30. :-)

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Jonathan Ganz wrote:
We're in the process of having two windows redone. The person who's
going to do it for us claims that the proper sealant is quite toxic..
some
"professional grade" product. I believe the windows are some sort of
polycarbonate, but I'm not certain.

You should find out for sure what it is. A professional would not be
concerned with keeping a secret about what materials he used on a
customer's boat. The best professionals I've worked with would go out of
their way to make sure the customer knows what materials are used and
how to best care for them.

... Do you have any info about the
toxicity of these type of sealants?

There is such a wide variety, it's impossible to say. For example, 5200
is a butyl isocyanate, so it's not exactly healthy stuff to eat or
inhale. But it's not in the same class as Agent Orange or enriched
plutonium...

What you want is the MSDS (material safety data sheet) for the stuff
being used. They are easily googled: here is the one for 5200

http://www.tapplastics.com/uploads/p...00%20White.pdf

... What's there now is ugly and leaks,
so it's got to get redone.

Your boat *leaks*??? Get out!!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Which window shape?
 

It's a Yamaha 30. I'm not sure what the windows are
made of, but I think we're going to replace them anyway.
They're frameless... not port lights... the cabin windows.

I believe the guy mentioned something about a 2-part
mix that he uses.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"felton" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 08:47:30 -0700, "Jonathan Ganz"
wrote:

We're in the process of having two windows redone. The person who's
going to do it for us claims that the proper sealant is quite toxic..
some
"professional grade" product. I believe the windows are some sort of
polycarbonate, but I'm not certain. Do you have any info about the
toxicity of these type of sealants? What's there now is ugly and leaks,
so it's got to get redone.

What sort of boat? Are the portlights in frames or frameless?

I am not sure what sort of product he is talking about. Was it Plexus
by any chance? From my days on the C&C list, where folks are quite
experienced in *attempting* to install leak resistant portlights,
Plexus was sometimes mentioned. If memory serves, that might be a two
part product that is a lot more like a glue. Based on my experience,
which is hardly exhaustive, I think the key to leak-free portlights is
a good design in the first place, together with a forgiving and easily
removed/replaced sealant. My C&C had a VERY poor portlight design.
It was an unframed, thin, long piece of *something* (dark lexan,
acrylic, plexiglass) that came to a sharply pointed taper at the
forward end and was expected to cling to the outside of a curved cabin
top. The hot sun would heat things up and things would try to move a
bit against the screws and everything would start to break down and
leak. I don't think that the Plexus would have been a solution for
me, but I never tried it. I try never to do anything that won't let
me remove or replace in the future.

On my current boat, the cabin portlights are also unframed, but are
divided into two smaller portlights, each of which is set into the
routed, recessed openings. The instructions for replacing the
portlights, or rebedding them, is to run a bead of white GE Silpruf
around the inside edge of the portlight opening. Then carefully set
the portlights in place against this sealant/adhesive. There are 4
very small screws, two top and two bottom that are then screwed in
around the top and bottom edges of the portlights to hold them in
place. A larger bead of black GE Silpruf is then applied around the
outside edge of the portlights and faired after it has set up enough
to be worked without still being too "gooey". They won't leak when
designed and bedded this way. (The white inner bead is just for
aesthetics so as not to have black Silpruf all over the white gelcoat
inside the boat).

I like the GE Silpruf product. It is often used to install those
glass panel windows on commercial buildings. Sabre recommends that
for their portlights, which is what I used. I subsequently learned
from my parts buddy at Valiant that they use a lot of it as well. It
is pretty inexpensive. About $6 for one of those caulk gun size
tubes. It doesn't harden and crack, which is where the leaks first
develop. The previous owner of my boat had apparently used Boat Life
and it was a hard, cracked mess.

Which window shape?
 

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 10:07:24 -0700, "Jonathan Ganz"
wrote:

It's a Yamaha 30. I'm not sure what the windows are
made of, but I think we're going to replace them anyway.
They're frameless... not port lights... the cabin windows.

I believe the guy mentioned something about a 2-part
mix that he uses.

That sounds like trouble to me. It does sound like he is talking
about Plexus. If (when) you need to remove/replace/rebed you are going
to tear up your cabin top getting those glued in windows out of there.
Just my opinion. Do your portlights fit into a recessed opening or do
they attach to the outside of the cabin top? The real problem with
large, frameless portlights is that things move and expand in
different amounts and different directions. Each one of my portlights
(two per side for the main cabin) are probably 3' long, from memory.
They are recessed and sit in silicole bedding on both sides. No
mechanical or structural stresses to cause leaks.

Which window shape?
 

Right...not sure what I was thinking. I believe they
attach to the outside and are held in with screws.

I'm going to get more info about what he's thinking
of doing. Thanks for the heads up about the removal
issue.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"felton" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 10:07:24 -0700, "Jonathan Ganz"
wrote:

It's a Yamaha 30. I'm not sure what the windows are
made of, but I think we're going to replace them anyway.
They're frameless... not port lights... the cabin windows.

I believe the guy mentioned something about a 2-part
mix that he uses.

That sounds like trouble to me. It does sound like he is talking
about Plexus. If (when) you need to remove/replace/rebed you are going
to tear up your cabin top getting those glued in windows out of there.
Just my opinion. Do your portlights fit into a recessed opening or do
they attach to the outside of the cabin top? The real problem with
large, frameless portlights is that things move and expand in
different amounts and different directions. Each one of my portlights
(two per side for the main cabin) are probably 3' long, from memory.
They are recessed and sit in silicole bedding on both sides. No
mechanical or structural stresses to cause leaks.

Which window shape?
 

"Wally" wrote in message ...
The windows on my boat need to be replaced. They're fitted into those
old-style channelled rubber strips that are used to hold vehicle windows in
place - the rubbers are rather perished and the acrylic is clouded and
crazed. I'm considering putting tinted acrylic on the outside of the cabin -
any thoughts on the wisdom of this approach?

By fitting on the outside surface, I have the opportunity to change the
window shape - here's a couple of side views of my vast, ocean-going,
18-foot mega-yacht, showing the original window shape, and the proposed new
shape...

http://community.webshots.com/album/136291482TgUkPQ



The new design looks good. When you cut your new windows use lexan
not acrylic.

When you put your new windows on oversize them slightly and do like
the car mfg's do and paint the back of the lexan black around the
edges to cover the sealant.

Joe
MSV RedCloud

Which window shape?
 

Wally,

I think butyl tape would be a good way to go. I have a Catalina 30 MK-II and
the windows are sealed that way. No leaks, and I'm fairly sure this is the
original bedding. I also used it to replace some silicone bedding that was
used to seal a portlight located above the quarterberth (but was leaking),
and the butyl tape seems to have taken care of the leak just fine.

Check out McMaster-Carr (www.mcmastercarr.com) as a good source for the
stuff.

I also read on a list that C&C used butyl tape to seal their hull to deck
joints, though I do not know whether this is so.

Regards,
Alan Gomes


"Wally" wrote in message
...
DSK wrote:

Yes but it would look better without those in any case. A better
comparison would be with (harder to draw in, I know)

(With?) I've added a photo showing the original window shape, but with the
stanchions and lifelines removed.


I'd be very afraid of weakening the structure... DON'T cut that
beam... in fact don't cut within 3 or 4 inches of it. The fiberglass
flange where it joins the coach roof molding is sure to be a
structural element. You can add fiberglass channels around the edge
of the new port opening for stiffness, but it'd be a major
engineering job to design & build a new mast step support.

I'm not planning to cut the opening at all. The new shape is basically a
go-faster stripe.


The plus side of bigger windows is more light inside (the tint looks
cool, but don't overdo it). The downside is a weaker coach roof.

The reason for going for a tint is to disguise the outline of the aperture
underneath - I may darken the GRP around the aperture if it shows through
the tint. It could do with some more light inside, and I'm looking into
the
possibility of putting a Houdini-type hatch on the cabin roof forward of
the
mast. It has a little 'ventilight' thing there at the moment. I think some
MkI Foxcubs (the Super model, perhaps) were fitted with a Houdini in this
location, so I think it will be okay structurally.


I'd put the acrylic on the outside, beveled, onto a mated surface
around the edge of the port, and use small screws only to hold it in
place while the 5200 dries.

Is that an adhesive sealant? If so, would there be problems with trying to
remove a window later? I was thinking of tacky butyl tape (squidgy and
compressible) with lots of screws.


The more time & work you put into the edges, both the seating to the
new port and the channel around the inside, the stronger & tighter it
will be. I've seen this kind of thing done well on a few boats...
seen a botched "quickie" job dozens of times (including on a boat we
were considering buying until we got a close look at this and many
other owner customized bits).

Well, the boat's a bit tatty and isn't really worth the effort to bring it
to anything approaching a concours finish. Neat, waterproof, and
maintainable are the main aims with the windows.


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk/music

Which window shape?
 

looks a bit 'Mac-ish'. and too big for the boat. Just my opinion.
I'd put a pair of round brass ports in.

SV


"Wally" wrote in message
...
The windows on my boat need to be replaced. They're fitted into those
old-style channelled rubber strips that are used to hold vehicle windows
in
place - the rubbers are rather perished and the acrylic is clouded and
crazed. I'm considering putting tinted acrylic on the outside of the
cabin -
any thoughts on the wisdom of this approach?

By fitting on the outside surface, I have the opportunity to change the
window shape - here's a couple of side views of my vast, ocean-going,
18-foot mega-yacht, showing the original window shape, and the proposed
new
shape...

http://community.webshots.com/album/136291482TgUkPQ


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk/music

Which window shape?
 

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 13:43:41 +0100, "Wally"
wrote this crap:

The windows on my boat need to be replaced. They're fitted into those
old-style channelled rubber strips that are used to hold vehicle windows in
place - the rubbers are rather perished and the acrylic is clouded and
crazed. I'm considering putting tinted acrylic on the outside of the cabin -
any thoughts on the wisdom of this approach?


When I have that problem, i buy a new boat.





This signature is now the ultimate power in the universe

Which window shape?
 

More information than we need.

"Horvath" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 13:43:41 +0100, "Wally"
wrote this crap:

The windows on my boat need to be replaced. They're fitted into those
old-style channelled rubber strips that are used to hold vehicle windows
in
place - the rubbers are rather perished and the acrylic is clouded and
crazed. I'm considering putting tinted acrylic on the outside of the
cabin -
any thoughts on the wisdom of this approach?


When I have that problem, i buy a new boy.





This signature is now the ultimate power in the universe

Which window shape?
 

Use clear sealant instead.

Cheers

Joe wrote:



When you put your new windows on oversize them slightly and do like
the car mfg's do and paint the back of the lexan black around the
edges to cover the sealant.

Which window shape?
 

Horvath wrote:
"Wally" wrote this crap:

The windows on my boat need to be replaced...

When I have that problem, i buy a new boat.

Isn't your bathtub getting awfully full by now?

--
//-Walt
//
// Sigs suck. Oh, the irony.

Which window shape?
 

I don't think he bathes...

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Walt" wrote in message
...
Horvath wrote:
"Wally" wrote this crap:

The windows on my boat need to be replaced...

When I have that problem, i buy a new boat.

Isn't your bathtub getting awfully full by now?

--
//-Walt
//
// Sigs suck. Oh, the irony.

Which window shape?
 

"Wally" wrote in message
...
The windows on my boat need to be replaced. They're fitted into those
old-style channelled rubber strips that are used to hold vehicle windows
in
place - the rubbers are rather perished and the acrylic is clouded and
crazed. I'm considering putting tinted acrylic on the outside of the
cabin -
any thoughts on the wisdom of this approach?

By fitting on the outside surface, I have the opportunity to change the
window shape - here's a couple of side views of my vast, ocean-going,
18-foot mega-yacht, showing the original window shape, and the proposed
new
shape...

http://community.webshots.com/album/136291482TgUkPQ


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk/music

Have seen this done before, a lot easier than enlarging the cut out. The new
shape looks very good, IMHO.
John Cairns

Which window shape?
 

My boat was built with windows sealed on the outside of the hull.
They leaked adequately to cause enough damage that I could afford the
boat. I did replace them with acrylic and the installation leaked
after a few months. Next we tried nylon washers between the window
and the hull to maintain a minimum sealant thickness of about 3 mm to
absorb differential expansion and hull flex. This has worked well for
4 years.


"Wally" wrote in message ...
The windows on my boat need to be replaced. They're fitted into those
old-style channelled rubber strips that are used to hold vehicle windows in
place - the rubbers are rather perished and the acrylic is clouded and
crazed. I'm considering putting tinted acrylic on the outside of the cabin -
any thoughts on the wisdom of this approach?

By fitting on the outside surface, I have the opportunity to change the
window shape - here's a couple of side views of my vast, ocean-going,
18-foot mega-yacht, showing the original window shape, and the proposed new
shape...

http://community.webshots.com/album/136291482TgUkPQ

Which window shape?
 

What is with this "windows" thread???? Boats have PORTS; houses have
windows...sheesh....

--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

Which window shape?
 

What did you use for sealant?
--Alan Gomes

"RFP" wrote in message
om...
My boat was built with windows sealed on the outside of the hull.
They leaked adequately to cause enough damage that I could afford the
boat. I did replace them with acrylic and the installation leaked
after a few months. Next we tried nylon washers between the window
and the hull to maintain a minimum sealant thickness of about 3 mm to
absorb differential expansion and hull flex. This has worked well for
4 years.


"Wally" wrote in message
...
The windows on my boat need to be replaced. They're fitted into those
old-style channelled rubber strips that are used to hold vehicle windows
in
place - the rubbers are rather perished and the acrylic is clouded and
crazed. I'm considering putting tinted acrylic on the outside of the
cabin -
any thoughts on the wisdom of this approach?

By fitting on the outside surface, I have the opportunity to change the
window shape - here's a couple of side views of my vast, ocean-going,
18-foot mega-yacht, showing the original window shape, and the proposed
new
shape...

http://community.webshots.com/album/136291482TgUkPQ

Which window shape?
 

On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 11:08:44 -0400, Walt
wrote this crap:

Horvath wrote:
"Wally" wrote this crap:

The windows on my boat need to be replaced...

When I have that problem, i buy a new boat.

Isn't your bathtub getting awfully full by now?


My bathub is one of the Great Lakes.




My T-shirt says, "This shirt is the
ultimate power in the universe."

Which window shape?
 

Doug didn't know that either Kook! Wonder why?

Cheers

katysails wrote:

What is with this "windows" thread???? Boats have PORTS; houses have
windows...sheesh....

Which window shape?
 

"Horvath" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 11:08:44 -0400, Walt
wrote this crap:

Horvath wrote:
"Wally" wrote this crap:

The windows on my boat need to be replaced...

When I have that problem, i buy a new boat.

Isn't your bathtub getting awfully full by now?

My bathub is one of the Great Lakes.


Do you fit?

Which window shape?
 

katysails wrote:

What is with this "windows" thread???? Boats have PORTS; houses have
windows...sheesh....

I thought ports were those little round things with brass frames...

(...or things where boats tie up for the night...)


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk/music

Which window shape?
 

RFP wrote:

My boat was built with windows sealed on the outside of the hull.
They leaked adequately to cause enough damage that I could afford the
boat. I did replace them with acrylic and the installation leaked
after a few months. Next we tried nylon washers between the window
and the hull to maintain a minimum sealant thickness of about 3 mm to
absorb differential expansion and hull flex. This has worked well for
4 years.

Noted. I was considering using machine screws through both the acrylic and
cabn side, with lock nuts on the inside so that the fixings can be tightened
enough to bring the layers of material together without compressing the
sealing material.


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk/music

Which window shape?
 

felton wrote:

That is how the cabintop portlights were installed on my last boat.
They leaked, but mostly from the forward end where the portlights came
to a fairly sharp point and where the curve of the cabintop was most
pronounced. The portlight kept wanting to "straighten out" away from
the cabintop and at the same time there was not enough lexan there for
a screw. If your setup wouldn't create as much stress, it might work.

I should get a chance to have a close look at the boat on Wednesday
afternoon if I get down early for the evening race - as I say in an earlier
post, it's pretty slab-sided and I don't think there's much of a compound
curve (if any), but it's better to make sure.


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk/music

Which window shape?
 

Alan Gomes wrote:

I think butyl tape would be a good way to go. I have a Catalina 30
MK-II and the windows are sealed that way. No leaks, and I'm fairly
sure this is the original bedding. I also used it to replace some
silicone bedding that was used to seal a portlight located above the
quarterberth (but was leaking), and the butyl tape seems to have
taken care of the leak just fine.

Yup, I'm getting the impression that it's a good way to go.


Check out McMaster-Carr (www.mcmastercarr.com) as a good source for
the stuff.

Will do.


I also read on a list that C&C used butyl tape to seal their hull to
deck joints, though I do not know whether this is so.

Maybe a C&C owner can comment.


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk/music

Which window shape?
 

"Wally" wrote in message
...
Noted. I was considering using machine screws through both the acrylic and
cabn side, with lock nuts on the inside so that the fixings can be tightened
enough to bring the layers of material together without compressing the
sealing material.

My windows are "surface mounted." I recall the builder saying they had to be
very careful to oversize boltholes a bit to allow for dissimilar expansion of
the fiberglass and plastic. Of course, I don't know what kind of plastic is
used, what the bedding is, or whether this was really a dream.

Good luck.

-jeff

Which window shape?
 

felton wrote:

Check and see how much bend. Bend is not your friend, as that lexan
(or whatever you use) won't want to stay bent. The bigger or longer
the piece, the bigger the issue. I agree that you see where folks
have drilled and installed exterior screws through the portlight into
the cabin top (slightly larger holes in the lexan to allow for
movement). That just strikes me as a bad design. Lots of holes, but
perhaps unavoidable.

Someone (elsewhere) mentioned that there are splined fixings which fit tight
into the acrylic and pass through the GRP to take nuts on the inside. The
idea is that one can't put a screwdriver or spanner on them from the
outside. So, I would assume that the oversize holes would be in the GRP if
using that type of fixing. That said, it's not the most luxurious of boats
and isn't exactly a thief magnet - and I'm probably going to use locknuts on
the inside, which would make unscrewing very difficult no what type of
fixing was used.


Not if you are selling the boat before the things start leaking in the
future, but otherwise, yes:) Given time, everyhting needs to be
rebedded periodically, or the portlight material will become crazed,
brittle or otherwise in need of replacement. You don't want to tear
up your cabintop getting them out.

Qiute. I gather butyl tape strikes a good balance between getting a good
seal and being remvable.


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk/music