"Veridican" wrote in message
Jeff,

You say 25 knots is more like a jog in the park


Jeff Morris wrote:
Yes, its a bit of work.

Depends very much on the boat. Some are fun at 25, some are work, some
are in 'survival mode.' It also depends on the water... what size & type
of waves do you have to contend with?




and 35 is survival conditions,
and then you say it's no big deal. 25 knots is 21 mph sustained. It's a force

6

wind. In a cruising boat, you should be in harnesses and reefed.

You have a bit of a math problem. But I'd agree that in most conditions
of 25 knot winds or above, harnesses are a good idea. Reefing may or may
not be.



Yes, I'd probably be reefed, unless its downwind. I reef fairly often -
sometimes I'll reef at the dock and then shake it out if the predicted wind
doesn't happen.

That's been my policy as well, on boats that *can* be reefed. Most small
boats and all one designs have no reef points. I've tried rolling the
sail around the mast on Lasers and Force 5s but it doesn't work too
well. On most such boats, capsizing is part of the fun.

... What's the point - is reefing a sign that its dangerous? I've
set all my "personal speed records" under shortened sail - currently 13.5 knots
in bursts, surfing down waves; about 12 knots sustained reaching in 25 knots of
wind. The former situation was a bit un-nerving because it was one of our
first times in the boat. The second was just a fun daysail, reaching back and
forth across Buzzard's Bay in a warm SW blow.

Ah yes, the Buzzards Bay daily hurricane. Fun place to sail. I like the
way the waves change dramatically with the tide, too.


As for a harness - I very rarely use mine during the day - I don't recall ever
feeling at risk of going overboard. I do sometime wear inflatable SOSpendors,
if there's a chance I have to go forward. But my current boat and my previous
boat have large, secure cockpits with all lines led aft, good lifelines with
full netting. 25 knots of wind would not be a reason to harness. 8 foot seas
might be, but that's another story.

Guess that depends on the boat too. It certainly depends on the sailor.
I tend to be chicken though, and wear a harness or a PFD many times when
others don't.


In a dinghy you shouldn't go out at all.

Maybe *you* shouldn't.


Total nonsense. I've run regatta's in 20 to 25 knots, though that's about the
limit for the small dinks we had. But I've raced a number of times in 25+
knots. I've taught beginners' lessons in 12 foot dinks in over 20, but I did
advise students that they were guaranteed to be soaked in 2 minutes, and a
capsize was likely if they took the tiller. In fact, in 6 years of instructing
I don't recall canceling a lesson just because of high wind, though the students
did decline on occasion.

In some of the racing classes, 25 ~ 30 is close to the upper limit of
when things get out of control even with the champions. Two modern
designs I admire, the Viper and the Johnson 18, can race and have lots
of fun in 30 ~ 35... maybe more. In 470s it's survival mode.




I'm not saying it can't be fun, but don't make it
sound like it's a normal sailing experience.

It should be. How can you learn to handle a boat in bad weather if you
never experience any harder winds?



It all depends on where you live, what kind of boat you have, and what type of
local support. Boston is the windiest city in the country, so its not uncommon
in the Spring and Fall to have serious wind. If you sail out of a club that has
committee boats and/or rescue launches you can afford to take some risks. And
for a proper cruising boat, 25 knots is not that big of a deal.

heh heh I think Chicago is the windiest city... colder water, too...

anyway, a couple of afternoons sailing a racing class dinghy in 20+
knots will teach any sailor how to better handle a bigger boat in strong
winds. It's a shame so many sailors scorn this type of experience... or
think it's dangerous...

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"DSK" wrote in message
. ..

It all depends on where you live, what kind of boat you have, and what type
of
local support. Boston is the windiest city in the country, so its not
uncommon
in the Spring and Fall to have serious wind.

heh heh I think Chicago is the windiest city... colder water, too...


Chicago is not even close. Their reputation is not from the real wind, its
from the politicians.

http://lwf.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/...d/avgwind.html

Jeff Morris wrote:
Chicago is not even close. Their reputation is not from the real wind, its
from the politicians.

Ever sailed there? I have. Not a lot, but more than a dozen times... and
I don't recall any light air, most of the time it was blowing 20 ~ 25.



http://lwf.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/...d/avgwind.html

Thanks for the link. Interesting... some of the places I think of as
good for sailing in *real* wind, like Charleston SC, are not even in the
upper half. OTOH upper NY harbor which has almost always been drifters
the times I sailed there, has a pretty high average wind.

Boston does have good breeze. Usually pretty good when we've been up
there. The tides & currents are challenging too.

DSK

I think Chicago is the windiest city.

The term "Windy City" in reference to Chicago comes from an 1890's political
cartoon in that city's newspaper.

DSK wrote:

Two modern
designs I admire, the Viper and the Johnson 18, can race and have lots
of fun in 30 ~ 35... maybe more.

You've lost the distinction between your fantasies and reality! I'd go
so far as top say that 35kn is outside the range of manageability for
all dinghies.

Cheers MC

DSK wrote:
Two modern designs I admire, the Viper and the Johnson 18, can race
and have lots of fun in 30 ~ 35... maybe more.


Navigator wrote:
You've lost the distinction between your fantasies and reality!

Not at all. When I have fantasies about sailing, it usually involves
something like 18-footer skiffs or brigantines. Why fantasize about
sailing in 35 knots when that happens a few times every season?

... I'd go
so far as top say that 35kn is outside the range of manageability for
all dinghies.


We used to take the NC State racing team out for practice in 20+ knot
winds any time we got the chance, and often got out in 30+. That was in
420s (which get to be more than a handful) and in JY-15s (which are nice
heavy air boats).

My wife and I have raced the Johnson 18 several times in 30+ and twice
won regattas where the wind was measured 33 steady and 40+ peak. This
was in racing mode, playing shifts and tactics, rather than survival
mode. Would you call that "in the range of manageability?"

In one of those regattas, the Johnsons and the Vipers were the only
classes to finish races. BTW there were a bunch of small keelboats and
ballasted centerboarders that gave up and/or suffered a lot of breakage.

A 470 in 35 knot winds is most likely in survival mode, except for the
very top sailors in the class. A lot of the more traditional boats would
be over the top. Lightnings, for example, get to be a very difficult
handful in 25 knots and over. The Daysailer, a nice Uffa Fox design, is
one that suffers breakage and unmanageability in 30+.

I can see how you arrived at your opinion... but you just don't have the
experience. You have scorned dinghy sailing all along.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Sure, in your dreams.

40+ gust - 27 steady
33+ av - 50+ peak
35 av (a full gale) - 52 gusts.

I maintain, at 35 knt wind speed a dinghy is out of the range of
managability. Anyone who says otherwise has either never sailed in such
winds or is a braggard.

Just as a matter of record, Doug what is your club policy on wind
strength for abandoning dinghy races?


Cheers

DSK wrote:


My wife and I have raced the Johnson 18 several times in 30+ and twice
won regattas where the wind was measured 33 steady and 40+ peak. This
was in racing mode, playing shifts and tactics, rather than survival
mode. Would you call that "in the range of manageability?"

Navigator wrote:
Sure, in your dreams.

You're calling me a liar, yet again? You don't ever learn.


40+ gust - 27 steady
33+ av - 50+ peak
35 av (a full gale) - 52 gusts.

Oh right, wind patterns are *always* exactly the same, even in different
hemispheres... aren't they?


I maintain, at 35 knt wind speed a dinghy is out of the range of
managability. Anyone who says otherwise has either never sailed in such
winds or is a braggard.

Like Oz1?

Sorry, you just plain don't know what you're talking about. Since you've
always insulted dinghy sailing, how can you now claim to be an expert on it?


Just as a matter of record, Doug what is your club policy on wind
strength for abandoning dinghy races?

One club I used to belong to had a policy of cancelling in "sustained
winds" over 25 knots. The College of Charleston sailing club will not
start a race with measured winds over 30 (I think this is on their web
site). The club I have done most of my sailing with the past few years
doesn't have a policy... but if the race committee has to leave station
to go rescue boats, then obviously the race cannot be scored.

The races I was referring to earlier were on Sarasota Bay. I don't know
what their club policy might be, but it looked like they were holding
races as long as anybody was out there running the course.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

SDo youi prove my point. Over 35 knots average dinghies are outside the
range of managability 'cos thats why the races are canecelled. You still
don't understand?

DSK wrote:

Navigator wrote:

Sure, in your dreams.


You're calling me a liar, yet again? You don't ever learn.


40+ gust - 27 steady
33+ av - 50+ peak
35 av (a full gale) - 52 gusts.


Oh right, wind patterns are *always* exactly the same, even in different
hemispheres... aren't they?

No, that's a met. service observation, true world wide. The gusts are
generally up to 1.5 times windspeed. A real sailor knows this.



I maintain, at 35 knt wind speed a dinghy is out of the range of
managability. Anyone who says otherwise has either never sailed in
such winds or is a braggard.


Like Oz1?


Yep. Memory always exaggerates wind speed.


Just as a matter of record, Doug what is your club policy on wind
strength for abandoning dinghy races?


One club I used to belong to had a policy of cancelling in "sustained
winds" over 25 knots. The College of Charleston sailing club will not
start a race with measured winds over 30 (I think this is on their web
site). The club I have done most of my sailing with the past few years
doesn't have a policy... but if the race committee has to leave station
to go rescue boats, then obviously the race cannot be scored.


So you prove my point. Over 35 knots average, dinghies are
outside the range of managability and that's why the races are
cancelled. I've never heard of a race started in a full gale. As far as
I've experienced, force 7 is considered the point where the race
committee really starts to wonder whether to start a keel boat race and
looks hard at the Meteorology for the race period.

Cheers MC

Navigator wrote:
SDo youi prove my point. Over 35 knots average dinghies are outside the
range of managability 'cos thats why the races are canecelled.

Oh, now you want to add the qualifier "average" dinghies? I guess the
ones that keep sailing are above average? And the clubs that don't
cancel races, they also prove your point?

... You still
don't understand?

I don't understand why anybody would think you know diddly squat about
sailing.

DSK