"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...
I think your math needs a second look. 25 knots is roughly 29 mph.

In other words, it's even higher, in mph, than he indicated, which
further emphasizes the point he was making.


Anyone who cites wind strength in mph in a nautical context, for a nautical
audience is not to be trusted. Every marine forecast (including in Ed's home
waters) is posted in knots. Ed even said he relies on the weather channel's
land forecast rather than the NOAA marine forecast. It makes you wonder.

can you say "cognitive diffidence"?

In other words, you don't really have a substantive answer to my last
note? Is that what you mean, JAX?

Jim

the only substantive comment on your last note is that you have deluded
yourself.

Haha ha that's the best one yet jimmy, you craack me up.

SV

"Jim Cate" wrote ...


Additionally, the 26M includes a new
rotatable mast, floatation in the mast to minimize the possibility of
capsizing,

"Jim Cate" wrote

See my comments above. I think the boat will perform competitively
against most 26-ft boats.

Motor boats? Mac won't motor as fast or as smooth.

Sailboat? Not even close.

You lose on both accounts.

SV

floatation in the mast to minimize the possibility of
capsizing,

huh? you be a dummy, jimmy, if you fell for that one.

But jax, it says so in the brochure.

Maybe it's anti-gravity floatation.

SV

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
floatation in the mast to minimize the possibility of
capsizing,

huh? you be a dummy, jimmy, if you fell for that one.

"Veridican" wrote in message
Jeff,

You say 25 knots is more like a jog in the park


Jeff Morris wrote:
Yes, its a bit of work.

Depends very much on the boat. Some are fun at 25, some are work, some
are in 'survival mode.' It also depends on the water... what size & type
of waves do you have to contend with?




and 35 is survival conditions,
and then you say it's no big deal. 25 knots is 21 mph sustained. It's a force

6

wind. In a cruising boat, you should be in harnesses and reefed.

You have a bit of a math problem. But I'd agree that in most conditions
of 25 knot winds or above, harnesses are a good idea. Reefing may or may
not be.



Yes, I'd probably be reefed, unless its downwind. I reef fairly often -
sometimes I'll reef at the dock and then shake it out if the predicted wind
doesn't happen.

That's been my policy as well, on boats that *can* be reefed. Most small
boats and all one designs have no reef points. I've tried rolling the
sail around the mast on Lasers and Force 5s but it doesn't work too
well. On most such boats, capsizing is part of the fun.

... What's the point - is reefing a sign that its dangerous? I've
set all my "personal speed records" under shortened sail - currently 13.5 knots
in bursts, surfing down waves; about 12 knots sustained reaching in 25 knots of
wind. The former situation was a bit un-nerving because it was one of our
first times in the boat. The second was just a fun daysail, reaching back and
forth across Buzzard's Bay in a warm SW blow.

Ah yes, the Buzzards Bay daily hurricane. Fun place to sail. I like the
way the waves change dramatically with the tide, too.


As for a harness - I very rarely use mine during the day - I don't recall ever
feeling at risk of going overboard. I do sometime wear inflatable SOSpendors,
if there's a chance I have to go forward. But my current boat and my previous
boat have large, secure cockpits with all lines led aft, good lifelines with
full netting. 25 knots of wind would not be a reason to harness. 8 foot seas
might be, but that's another story.

Guess that depends on the boat too. It certainly depends on the sailor.
I tend to be chicken though, and wear a harness or a PFD many times when
others don't.


In a dinghy you shouldn't go out at all.

Maybe *you* shouldn't.


Total nonsense. I've run regatta's in 20 to 25 knots, though that's about the
limit for the small dinks we had. But I've raced a number of times in 25+
knots. I've taught beginners' lessons in 12 foot dinks in over 20, but I did
advise students that they were guaranteed to be soaked in 2 minutes, and a
capsize was likely if they took the tiller. In fact, in 6 years of instructing
I don't recall canceling a lesson just because of high wind, though the students
did decline on occasion.

In some of the racing classes, 25 ~ 30 is close to the upper limit of
when things get out of control even with the champions. Two modern
designs I admire, the Viper and the Johnson 18, can race and have lots
of fun in 30 ~ 35... maybe more. In 470s it's survival mode.




I'm not saying it can't be fun, but don't make it
sound like it's a normal sailing experience.

It should be. How can you learn to handle a boat in bad weather if you
never experience any harder winds?



It all depends on where you live, what kind of boat you have, and what type of
local support. Boston is the windiest city in the country, so its not uncommon
in the Spring and Fall to have serious wind. If you sail out of a club that has
committee boats and/or rescue launches you can afford to take some risks. And
for a proper cruising boat, 25 knots is not that big of a deal.

heh heh I think Chicago is the windiest city... colder water, too...

anyway, a couple of afternoons sailing a racing class dinghy in 20+
knots will teach any sailor how to better handle a bigger boat in strong
winds. It's a shame so many sailors scorn this type of experience... or
think it's dangerous...

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...


Jeff Morris wrote:

Bull**** Jim, you're the one being dishonest. I led off the quotes with the
comment "I've seen very little about the 26M, but for the 26x from the
Sailnet
list:"


Funny, you didn't address this point. You did call me dishonest when its pretty
obvious I explicitly stated where my quotes were from and what they referred to.
....

the 26M is
a totally different boat. It may be true that the M performs a bit better
in
some situations, and is a step forward, but they are 95% identical.

How can you possibly believe that?

Because I've watched designs from various architects evolved over the years.
Changes like swapping a centerboard for a dagger are interesting but do not
change the fundamental nature of the boat. A number of powerboat companies even
offer the same boat with two different hulls - one with a deeper vee - so people
can chose which is best for their environent; but most will view the boats as
essentially the same. Adding 12 feet of sail area, and shifting the cockpit aft
a few inches may make a difference, but its not that big. Clearly, taken as a
whole, the differences are big enough to consider the X and M different boats,
but still, they are so close that most statement made about one, when comparing
to any other boats, will apply to the other.

BTW, my builder just introduced a new version of my boat, designed for racing.
The sail area was increased 29%, the weight was reduced 20% (probably 30% off of
my "cruising" version), and the fixed (unweighted) keels were replaced with
daggerboards. Now that's making a serious difference in the design.

The hull design of the 26M is
substantially and significantly changed, now having with a deep
16-degree V rather than a relatively flat bottom throughout; the swing
keel of the x boat has been replaced by a dagger board that is much more
narrow, and that can be adjusted vertically as desired without altering
the center of lateral resistance, as with a swing keel; the boat no
longer depends on a water ballast exclusively, but additionally includes
permanent ballast to enhance stability and provide greater safety when
motoring without the water ballast. Additionally, the 26M includes a new
rotatable mast, floatation in the mast to minimize the possibility of
capsizing, new chain plates, new standing rigging design, more
attractive and more comfortable cabin, etc., etc.

Mostly, these are improvements. But stepping back just a few feet, they are the
same boat.

The "foam in the mast" sound like a good thing, until you consider that the mast
is so small its only provideding a few pounds of floatation. In moderate
conditions there's no reason why it should turtle, unless you forgot the water
ballast. In heavy conditions, the modest amount of floatation is meaningless.



....

It may be the performance under sail has improved a bit, but frankly it
couldn't
get much worse. But the sail isn't that much bigger, and the hull isn't
that
different, and the fundamental problems with the design haven't been
changed.

See my comments above. I think the boat will perform competitively
against most 26-ft boats. But it wasn't designed as a racer, and that's
not my primary interest.

Competitive with other 26 footers??? Very doubtful. Why is it that there's no
record yet of a PHRF rating for it? And don't give the 175 nonsense!




But if it does perform so much better, why was the salesman afraid to let
you
test it?


He wasn't "afraid" to let me test it. - He didn't have any of the boats
in stock. He had sold one other one, that arrived later, and he didn't
want me to sail one that had been sold to someone else. He was going to
get only one more in the next five months or so, which I ordered.

Whatever you say, Jim. This is so ridiculous its hardly worth commenting on.
However, you claimed several times that they were backordered and hard to get.
But somehow you were able to get your dealers entire spring allotment, with a 2
month delivery. Given that the boat has to be finished and setup at the
factory, that sounds like instant delivery. You'll probably get you boat faster
than I'll get my new kitchen chairs that I just ordered.


As previously explained, I have sailed a number of MacGregor boats, and
the new model has corrected the several problems I saw with the x model,
while retaining its advantages and versatility.

So now you're admitting they're mostly the same.

In discussing the boat
with Mac owners, everyone I spoke with who had sailed the 26M was
positive regarding the new boat.

Jim

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...

Once again, your post quotes from owners of Macs, but not owners of Mac
26Ms. One owner states that he has owned his boat for four years. - But
the Mac 26M was first sold in 2003, only 10 months ago. (AN OBVIOUSLY
DECEPTIVE CITE.) Regarding pointing ability and speed under sail,
eveyone I speak with who has saild the 26M tells me that the new hull
and keel arrangment are a significant improvement.

How about a little more intellectual honesty when repeating quotes like
these.

Jim


Jeff Morris wrote:


"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...


You could have sailed the boat yourself. I suppose the dealer told you

that is


not possible now because he doesn't have a demonstrator.

I have sailed several of the previous models, and I've been following
their development and improvements for over 10 years. The Mac 26M
incorporates several changes that I had wanted to see in the other
boats. Regarding sailing the boat, however, it is almost impossible to
get a dealer to permit you to sail the boat out because of the very
limited supply and heavy demand for the boats.



Especially on April 1.





Or, you could listen to what owners say.

(Owners of what? The 26x? And, why should I listen to what the owners
say, since you just warned me (in the note copied below) that the
owners can't be trusted since they don't want to admit that they made a
mistake in buying the boat.



No, you just have to be careful when you interpret them. The comments of a
novice sailer who just spent $30K are not that reliable.




You can find dozens of comments that


the top speed under power in flat water to be 12-13 knots, and that it

could

be


hard to get on a plane in a moderate chop. Yet you keep insisting you
can

make


18 knots offshore.

(Top speed of what? The 26x?) From the comments I have seen on various
ngs, the X has sailed and motored much faster than that.


Yes, there are people that power very "light" and get more speed. There
are
also people that almost did it once and talk about like its an everyday
occurrence. But if you go through the lists you'll find people that give

more

believable accounts. The web site itself is explicit that 18 knots is
completely unloaded: no ballast, no mast and rigging, no crew or gear. I

heard

the skipper they chose weighed 130 pounds.



In fact, it was
recently stated on the Mac discussion group that the PHRF of the Mac 26x
has recently been lowered from over 200 to 135. If the boat is as slow
as you say, how did it get a PHRF of 135? (And if you should disagree
with this or if you want to question the accuracy of this statement,
give us a web site or reference sourses on which we can check out
whatever you claim it is.)


Now that you've admitted that this was a hoax that you bought, "hook, line

and

sinker," perhaps you should consider what other fantasies you've bought

into.

If you google "mac 26x phrf" the first hit is:
http://www.vycsd.com/summer-comb.pdf



I may not have sailed one, but I've sailed by them a number of times. In
a
small chop they bob around and don't move. The people on board wonder
why

all


the other boats are going by; it doesn't look like fun at all.

To my knowledge, and after extensive searching, no one who owns one of
the Mac 26M's has posted any comments of that nature. (If you know of
such a site, give me a link.) By contrast, the reports I have seen
regarding the 26M have been universally positive.


I've seen very little about the 26M, but for the 26x from the Sailnet list:

When asked about max speed:

"My max speed under sail was
6.25 knots on a 90 degree beam reach (wind coming directly off starboard)
in
a 10 knot wind with 15 knot gusts. What a great day of sailing! I have a
combo depth and speedometer on my boat that actually registered 7+ knots
but
only momentarily during the same run. Two people on board (total) with I'm
guessing about 300 lbs of gear and provisions for a week long trip. That 21
mph thing is for powering with no gear, no sail rigging etc. The fastest
I've been under power w/ a Honda 50 is 12 to 13 knots - according to my
g.p.s. - 14 m.p.h. I hopes this helps."

"The best speed, under standard sails, I have ever done
is 7 MPH. Checked with GPS."

"5.5 knots (est., before I got my GPS)"


There were a few impressive comments such as:

"Our fastest sustained speed has been 11.2 knots.
...
150 genoa + main
...
Winds were at our aft quarter @ 25 knots, gusting to 35. Waves were 4 - 5
feet. We were on a large inland lake. We were surfing on the waves, so
some of the speed was certainly from the wave action.
...
As a side note, working our way back into those same winds (gusting to 40
knots by that time), the speed was very slow, due to the steep, close wave
action. The light weight of the X is a disadvantage when going to weather
with any significant wave action."


Other comments:
"When it gets choppy, you may want to fill the ballast tank.
Then you can cruise effortlessly at about 10 mph or about 14-15 max. When
the wind is forward of the bow, the ride gets pretty wet above about 10 mph
if there is any chop at all. In summary, powering will increase your
range,
but maybe not as much as you think. It is the trailer that really opens up
new areas."

From an owner of 4 years:
"Initial tenderness: The boat will initially heel the first 10 degrees
rather quickly when presented to the wind. Once there, it will become
quite stable. This is a feature of all water ballasted boats, as there
is no righting moment until the ballast is lifted out of the water, and
the long slender CB doesn't present a lot of lateral resistance.




"Poor Pointing: Light weight, transom drag, and high freeboard all
impair the boats ability to maintain speed pointing high. While the
boat will point quite high, you'll sacrifice speed to do so. Sailing
about 10 degrees off maximum point, and making wide tacks to maintain
speed is one solution.

"High freeboard: You'll find the boat makes quite a bit more leeway than
your Cat. Windward, you'll find pointing well above the mark and then
bearing down to maintain speed around it is effective. Docking in a
crosswind can be tricky, but this same light weight makes the helm
pretty responsive (NTM having a lot of power available).

"Light wind: Not very fast. The relatively small sailplan and the drag
created by the CB slot and the flat, square transom. Sometimes these
are just the conditions where having high speed ability is nice. I've
often powered out into the Strait to higher winds, leaving the other
boats behind in the doldrums (going slightly faster than I used to be..)

"Waves and Chop: You really have to pay attention to prevent being
stopped. Light weight translates into low momentum. Bear into the base
of the wave and then bear off as it passes under you. Having a smooth
hand on the responsive helm can nearly eliminate this."




I have no trouble with someone choosing a Mac because they want to
trailer

it to


flat water lakes. That's what its designed for. But not for taking it
offshore.



According to the manufacturer, their boat is designed for coastal
cruising. Which is what I intend to do.


Actually, I think Roger MacGregor's words were "limited coastal cruising"

But jax, it says so in the brochure.

Maybe it's anti-gravity floatation.

or has a sky hook.


SV

"DSK" wrote in message
. ..

It all depends on where you live, what kind of boat you have, and what type
of
local support. Boston is the windiest city in the country, so its not
uncommon
in the Spring and Fall to have serious wind.

heh heh I think Chicago is the windiest city... colder water, too...


Chicago is not even close. Their reputation is not from the real wind, its
from the politicians.

http://lwf.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/...d/avgwind.html