BoatBanter.com - I was a Mac26X owner

BoatBanter.com (https://www.boatbanter.com/)

- ASA (https://www.boatbanter.com/asa/)

- - I was a Mac26X owner (https://www.boatbanter.com/asa/19559-i-mac26x-owner.html)

I was a Mac26X owner

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...
I think your math needs a second look. 25 knots is roughly 29 mph.

In other words, it's even higher, in mph, than he indicated, which
further emphasizes the point he was making.

Anyone who cites wind strength in mph in a nautical context, for a nautical
audience is not to be trusted. Every marine forecast (including in Ed's home
waters) is posted in knots. Ed even said he relies on the weather channel's
land forecast rather than the NOAA marine forecast. It makes you wonder.

I was a Mac26X owner

can you say "cognitive diffidence"?

In other words, you don't really have a substantive answer to my last
note? Is that what you mean, JAX?

Jim

the only substantive comment on your last note is that you have deluded
yourself.

I was a Mac26X owner

Haha ha that's the best one yet jimmy, you craack me up.

SV

"Jim Cate" wrote ...

Additionally, the 26M includes a new
rotatable mast, floatation in the mast to minimize the possibility of
capsizing,

I was a Mac26X owner

"Jim Cate" wrote

See my comments above. I think the boat will perform competitively
against most 26-ft boats.

Motor boats? Mac won't motor as fast or as smooth.

Sailboat? Not even close.

You lose on both accounts.

SV

I was a Mac26X owner

floatation in the mast to minimize the possibility of
capsizing,

huh? you be a dummy, jimmy, if you fell for that one.

I was a Mac26X owner

But jax, it says so in the brochure.

Maybe it's anti-gravity floatation.

SV

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
floatation in the mast to minimize the possibility of
capsizing,

huh? you be a dummy, jimmy, if you fell for that one.

I was a Mac26X owner

"Veridican" wrote in message
Jeff,

You say 25 knots is more like a jog in the park

Jeff Morris wrote:
Yes, its a bit of work.

Depends very much on the boat. Some are fun at 25, some are work, some
are in 'survival mode.' It also depends on the water... what size & type
of waves do you have to contend with?

and 35 is survival conditions,
and then you say it's no big deal. 25 knots is 21 mph sustained. It's a force

6

wind. In a cruising boat, you should be in harnesses and reefed.

You have a bit of a math problem. But I'd agree that in most conditions
of 25 knot winds or above, harnesses are a good idea. Reefing may or may
not be.

Yes, I'd probably be reefed, unless its downwind. I reef fairly often -
sometimes I'll reef at the dock and then shake it out if the predicted wind
doesn't happen.

That's been my policy as well, on boats that *can* be reefed. Most small
boats and all one designs have no reef points. I've tried rolling the
sail around the mast on Lasers and Force 5s but it doesn't work too
well. On most such boats, capsizing is part of the fun.

... What's the point - is reefing a sign that its dangerous? I've
set all my "personal speed records" under shortened sail - currently 13.5 knots
in bursts, surfing down waves; about 12 knots sustained reaching in 25 knots of
wind. The former situation was a bit un-nerving because it was one of our
first times in the boat. The second was just a fun daysail, reaching back and
forth across Buzzard's Bay in a warm SW blow.

Ah yes, the Buzzards Bay daily hurricane. Fun place to sail. I like the
way the waves change dramatically with the tide, too.

As for a harness - I very rarely use mine during the day - I don't recall ever
feeling at risk of going overboard. I do sometime wear inflatable SOSpendors,
if there's a chance I have to go forward. But my current boat and my previous
boat have large, secure cockpits with all lines led aft, good lifelines with
full netting. 25 knots of wind would not be a reason to harness. 8 foot seas
might be, but that's another story.

Guess that depends on the boat too. It certainly depends on the sailor.
I tend to be chicken though, and wear a harness or a PFD many times when
others don't.

In a dinghy you shouldn't go out at all.

Maybe *you* shouldn't.

Total nonsense. I've run regatta's in 20 to 25 knots, though that's about the
limit for the small dinks we had. But I've raced a number of times in 25+
knots. I've taught beginners' lessons in 12 foot dinks in over 20, but I did
advise students that they were guaranteed to be soaked in 2 minutes, and a
capsize was likely if they took the tiller. In fact, in 6 years of instructing
I don't recall canceling a lesson just because of high wind, though the students
did decline on occasion.

In some of the racing classes, 25 ~ 30 is close to the upper limit of
when things get out of control even with the champions. Two modern
designs I admire, the Viper and the Johnson 18, can race and have lots
of fun in 30 ~ 35... maybe more. In 470s it's survival mode.

I'm not saying it can't be fun, but don't make it
sound like it's a normal sailing experience.

It should be. How can you learn to handle a boat in bad weather if you
never experience any harder winds?

It all depends on where you live, what kind of boat you have, and what type of
local support. Boston is the windiest city in the country, so its not uncommon
in the Spring and Fall to have serious wind. If you sail out of a club that has
committee boats and/or rescue launches you can afford to take some risks. And
for a proper cruising boat, 25 knots is not that big of a deal.

heh heh I think Chicago is the windiest city... colder water, too...

anyway, a couple of afternoons sailing a racing class dinghy in 20+
knots will teach any sailor how to better handle a bigger boat in strong
winds. It's a shame so many sailors scorn this type of experience... or
think it's dangerous...

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

I was a Mac26X owner

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...

Jeff Morris wrote:

Bull**** Jim, you're the one being dishonest. I led off the quotes with the
comment "I've seen very little about the 26M, but for the 26x from the
Sailnet
list:"

Funny, you didn't address this point. You did call me dishonest when its pretty
obvious I explicitly stated where my quotes were from and what they referred to.
....

the 26M is
a totally different boat. It may be true that the M performs a bit better
in
some situations, and is a step forward, but they are 95% identical.

How can you possibly believe that?

Because I've watched designs from various architects evolved over the years.
Changes like swapping a centerboard for a dagger are interesting but do not
change the fundamental nature of the boat. A number of powerboat companies even
offer the same boat with two different hulls - one with a deeper vee - so people
can chose which is best for their environent; but most will view the boats as
essentially the same. Adding 12 feet of sail area, and shifting the cockpit aft
a few inches may make a difference, but its not that big. Clearly, taken as a
whole, the differences are big enough to consider the X and M different boats,
but still, they are so close that most statement made about one, when comparing
to any other boats, will apply to the other.

BTW, my builder just introduced a new version of my boat, designed for racing.
The sail area was increased 29%, the weight was reduced 20% (probably 30% off of
my "cruising" version), and the fixed (unweighted) keels were replaced with
daggerboards. Now that's making a serious difference in the design.

The hull design of the 26M is
substantially and significantly changed, now having with a deep
16-degree V rather than a relatively flat bottom throughout; the swing
keel of the x boat has been replaced by a dagger board that is much more
narrow, and that can be adjusted vertically as desired without altering
the center of lateral resistance, as with a swing keel; the boat no
longer depends on a water ballast exclusively, but additionally includes
permanent ballast to enhance stability and provide greater safety when
motoring without the water ballast. Additionally, the 26M includes a new
rotatable mast, floatation in the mast to minimize the possibility of
capsizing, new chain plates, new standing rigging design, more
attractive and more comfortable cabin, etc., etc.

Mostly, these are improvements. But stepping back just a few feet, they are the
same boat.

The "foam in the mast" sound like a good thing, until you consider that the mast
is so small its only provideding a few pounds of floatation. In moderate
conditions there's no reason why it should turtle, unless you forgot the water
ballast. In heavy conditions, the modest amount of floatation is meaningless.

....

It may be the performance under sail has improved a bit, but frankly it
couldn't
get much worse. But the sail isn't that much bigger, and the hull isn't
that
different, and the fundamental problems with the design haven't been
changed.

See my comments above. I think the boat will perform competitively
against most 26-ft boats. But it wasn't designed as a racer, and that's
not my primary interest.

Competitive with other 26 footers??? Very doubtful. Why is it that there's no
record yet of a PHRF rating for it? And don't give the 175 nonsense!

But if it does perform so much better, why was the salesman afraid to let
you
test it?

He wasn't "afraid" to let me test it. - He didn't have any of the boats
in stock. He had sold one other one, that arrived later, and he didn't
want me to sail one that had been sold to someone else. He was going to
get only one more in the next five months or so, which I ordered.

Whatever you say, Jim. This is so ridiculous its hardly worth commenting on.
However, you claimed several times that they were backordered and hard to get.
But somehow you were able to get your dealers entire spring allotment, with a 2
month delivery. Given that the boat has to be finished and setup at the
factory, that sounds like instant delivery. You'll probably get you boat faster
than I'll get my new kitchen chairs that I just ordered.

As previously explained, I have sailed a number of MacGregor boats, and
the new model has corrected the several problems I saw with the x model,
while retaining its advantages and versatility.

So now you're admitting they're mostly the same.

In discussing the boat
with Mac owners, everyone I spoke with who had sailed the 26M was
positive regarding the new boat.

Jim

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...

Once again, your post quotes from owners of Macs, but not owners of Mac
26Ms. One owner states that he has owned his boat for four years. - But
the Mac 26M was first sold in 2003, only 10 months ago. (AN OBVIOUSLY
DECEPTIVE CITE.) Regarding pointing ability and speed under sail,
eveyone I speak with who has saild the 26M tells me that the new hull
and keel arrangment are a significant improvement.

How about a little more intellectual honesty when repeating quotes like
these.

Jim

Jeff Morris wrote:

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...

You could have sailed the boat yourself. I suppose the dealer told you

that is

not possible now because he doesn't have a demonstrator.

I have sailed several of the previous models, and I've been following
their development and improvements for over 10 years. The Mac 26M
incorporates several changes that I had wanted to see in the other
boats. Regarding sailing the boat, however, it is almost impossible to
get a dealer to permit you to sail the boat out because of the very
limited supply and heavy demand for the boats.

Especially on April 1.

Or, you could listen to what owners say.

(Owners of what? The 26x? And, why should I listen to what the owners
say, since you just warned me (in the note copied below) that the
owners can't be trusted since they don't want to admit that they made a
mistake in buying the boat.

No, you just have to be careful when you interpret them. The comments of a
novice sailer who just spent $30K are not that reliable.

You can find dozens of comments that

the top speed under power in flat water to be 12-13 knots, and that it

could

be

hard to get on a plane in a moderate chop. Yet you keep insisting you
can

make

18 knots offshore.

(Top speed of what? The 26x?) From the comments I have seen on various
ngs, the X has sailed and motored much faster than that.

Yes, there are people that power very "light" and get more speed. There
are
also people that almost did it once and talk about like its an everyday
occurrence. But if you go through the lists you'll find people that give

more

believable accounts. The web site itself is explicit that 18 knots is
completely unloaded: no ballast, no mast and rigging, no crew or gear. I

heard

the skipper they chose weighed 130 pounds.

In fact, it was
recently stated on the Mac discussion group that the PHRF of the Mac 26x
has recently been lowered from over 200 to 135. If the boat is as slow
as you say, how did it get a PHRF of 135? (And if you should disagree
with this or if you want to question the accuracy of this statement,
give us a web site or reference sourses on which we can check out
whatever you claim it is.)

Now that you've admitted that this was a hoax that you bought, "hook, line

and

sinker," perhaps you should consider what other fantasies you've bought

into.

If you google "mac 26x phrf" the first hit is:
http://www.vycsd.com/summer-comb.pdf

I may not have sailed one, but I've sailed by them a number of times. In
a
small chop they bob around and don't move. The people on board wonder
why

all

the other boats are going by; it doesn't look like fun at all.

To my knowledge, and after extensive searching, no one who owns one of
the Mac 26M's has posted any comments of that nature. (If you know of
such a site, give me a link.) By contrast, the reports I have seen
regarding the 26M have been universally positive.

I've seen very little about the 26M, but for the 26x from the Sailnet list:

When asked about max speed:

"My max speed under sail was
6.25 knots on a 90 degree beam reach (wind coming directly off starboard)
in
a 10 knot wind with 15 knot gusts. What a great day of sailing! I have a
combo depth and speedometer on my boat that actually registered 7+ knots
but
only momentarily during the same run. Two people on board (total) with I'm
guessing about 300 lbs of gear and provisions for a week long trip. That 21
mph thing is for powering with no gear, no sail rigging etc. The fastest
I've been under power w/ a Honda 50 is 12 to 13 knots - according to my
g.p.s. - 14 m.p.h. I hopes this helps."

"The best speed, under standard sails, I have ever done
is 7 MPH. Checked with GPS."

"5.5 knots (est., before I got my GPS)"

There were a few impressive comments such as:

"Our fastest sustained speed has been 11.2 knots.
...
150 genoa + main
...
Winds were at our aft quarter @ 25 knots, gusting to 35. Waves were 4 - 5
feet. We were on a large inland lake. We were surfing on the waves, so
some of the speed was certainly from the wave action.
...
As a side note, working our way back into those same winds (gusting to 40
knots by that time), the speed was very slow, due to the steep, close wave
action. The light weight of the X is a disadvantage when going to weather
with any significant wave action."

Other comments:
"When it gets choppy, you may want to fill the ballast tank.
Then you can cruise effortlessly at about 10 mph or about 14-15 max. When
the wind is forward of the bow, the ride gets pretty wet above about 10 mph
if there is any chop at all. In summary, powering will increase your
range,
but maybe not as much as you think. It is the trailer that really opens up
new areas."

From an owner of 4 years:
"Initial tenderness: The boat will initially heel the first 10 degrees
rather quickly when presented to the wind. Once there, it will become
quite stable. This is a feature of all water ballasted boats, as there
is no righting moment until the ballast is lifted out of the water, and
the long slender CB doesn't present a lot of lateral resistance.

"Poor Pointing: Light weight, transom drag, and high freeboard all
impair the boats ability to maintain speed pointing high. While the
boat will point quite high, you'll sacrifice speed to do so. Sailing
about 10 degrees off maximum point, and making wide tacks to maintain
speed is one solution.

"High freeboard: You'll find the boat makes quite a bit more leeway than
your Cat. Windward, you'll find pointing well above the mark and then
bearing down to maintain speed around it is effective. Docking in a
crosswind can be tricky, but this same light weight makes the helm
pretty responsive (NTM having a lot of power available).

"Light wind: Not very fast. The relatively small sailplan and the drag
created by the CB slot and the flat, square transom. Sometimes these
are just the conditions where having high speed ability is nice. I've
often powered out into the Strait to higher winds, leaving the other
boats behind in the doldrums (going slightly faster than I used to be..)

"Waves and Chop: You really have to pay attention to prevent being
stopped. Light weight translates into low momentum. Bear into the base
of the wave and then bear off as it passes under you. Having a smooth
hand on the responsive helm can nearly eliminate this."

I have no trouble with someone choosing a Mac because they want to
trailer

it to

flat water lakes. That's what its designed for. But not for taking it
offshore.

According to the manufacturer, their boat is designed for coastal
cruising. Which is what I intend to do.

Actually, I think Roger MacGregor's words were "limited coastal cruising"

I was a Mac26X owner

But jax, it says so in the brochure.

Maybe it's anti-gravity floatation.

or has a sky hook.

SV

I was a Mac26X owner

"DSK" wrote in message
. ..

It all depends on where you live, what kind of boat you have, and what type
of
local support. Boston is the windiest city in the country, so its not
uncommon
in the Spring and Fall to have serious wind.

heh heh I think Chicago is the windiest city... colder water, too...

Chicago is not even close. Their reputation is not from the real wind, its
from the politicians.

http://lwf.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/...d/avgwind.html

I was a Mac26X owner

I think Chicago is the windiest city.

The term "Windy City" in reference to Chicago comes from an 1890's political
cartoon in that city's newspaper.

I was a Mac26X owner

wrote in message
...
MacGregor has a long and well documented history of being the builder of
low end
boats. VERY low end. That's why I don't have to sail one to tell you it is
a
piece of crap. That's all Macgregor has ever built. Reputations for
sailboats
are not built by advertising campaigns or glossy brochures. Macgregor has
built
themselves a solid reputation, but it's not a good one.

BB

Being slightly harsh, I would say that mac builds and sells cheap boats on
the cheap, builds 'em cheap, sells 'em cheap. That's how the company got
started, as an academic exercise. You do have to give Roger credit though,
he did introduce a lot of people to sailing, some of them saw enough in it
to graduate to boats that more closely mimic the experience of sailing.
"jim" is the odd case of devolution, I guess.
John Cairns

I was a Mac26X owner

According to this web-site http://www.havencraft.com/26m.asp the blue
painted hull is an option. $400

SV

"John Cairns" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
MacGregor has a long and well documented history of being the builder of
low end
boats. VERY low end. That's why I don't have to sail one to tell you it
is
a
piece of crap. That's all Macgregor has ever built. Reputations for
sailboats
are not built by advertising campaigns or glossy brochures. Macgregor
has
built
themselves a solid reputation, but it's not a good one.

BB

Being slightly harsh, I would say that mac builds and sells cheap boats on
the cheap, builds 'em cheap, sells 'em cheap. That's how the company got
started, as an academic exercise. You do have to give Roger credit though,
he did introduce a lot of people to sailing, some of them saw enough in it
to graduate to boats that more closely mimic the experience of sailing.
"jim" is the odd case of devolution, I guess.
John Cairns

I was a Mac26X owner

Careful Jax. He might be ELIZA.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
can you say "cognitive diffidence"?

In other words, you don't really have a substantive answer to my last
note? Is that what you mean, JAX?

Jim

the only substantive comment on your last note is that you have deluded
yourself.

I was a Mac26X owner

Jeff Morris wrote:
Chicago is not even close. Their reputation is not from the real wind, its
from the politicians.

Ever sailed there? I have. Not a lot, but more than a dozen times... and
I don't recall any light air, most of the time it was blowing 20 ~ 25.

http://lwf.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/...d/avgwind.html

Thanks for the link. Interesting... some of the places I think of as
good for sailing in *real* wind, like Charleston SC, are not even in the
upper half. OTOH upper NY harbor which has almost always been drifters
the times I sailed there, has a pretty high average wind.

Boston does have good breeze. Usually pretty good when we've been up
there. The tides & currents are challenging too.

DSK

I was a Mac26X owner

DSK wrote:

Two modern
designs I admire, the Viper and the Johnson 18, can race and have lots
of fun in 30 ~ 35... maybe more.

You've lost the distinction between your fantasies and reality! I'd go
so far as top say that 35kn is outside the range of manageability for
all dinghies.

Cheers MC

I was a Mac26X owner

DSK wrote:
Two modern designs I admire, the Viper and the Johnson 18, can race
and have lots of fun in 30 ~ 35... maybe more.

Navigator wrote:
You've lost the distinction between your fantasies and reality!

Not at all. When I have fantasies about sailing, it usually involves
something like 18-footer skiffs or brigantines. Why fantasize about
sailing in 35 knots when that happens a few times every season?

... I'd go
so far as top say that 35kn is outside the range of manageability for
all dinghies.

We used to take the NC State racing team out for practice in 20+ knot
winds any time we got the chance, and often got out in 30+. That was in
420s (which get to be more than a handful) and in JY-15s (which are nice
heavy air boats).

My wife and I have raced the Johnson 18 several times in 30+ and twice
won regattas where the wind was measured 33 steady and 40+ peak. This
was in racing mode, playing shifts and tactics, rather than survival
mode. Would you call that "in the range of manageability?"

In one of those regattas, the Johnsons and the Vipers were the only
classes to finish races. BTW there were a bunch of small keelboats and
ballasted centerboarders that gave up and/or suffered a lot of breakage.

A 470 in 35 knot winds is most likely in survival mode, except for the
very top sailors in the class. A lot of the more traditional boats would
be over the top. Lightnings, for example, get to be a very difficult
handful in 25 knots and over. The Daysailer, a nice Uffa Fox design, is
one that suffers breakage and unmanageability in 30+.

I can see how you arrived at your opinion... but you just don't have the
experience. You have scorned dinghy sailing all along.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

I was a Mac26X owner

Jeff Morris wrote:

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...

Jeff Morris wrote:

Bull**** Jim, you're the one being dishonest. I led off the quotes with the
comment "I've seen very little about the 26M, but for the 26x from the

Sailnet

list:"

Funny, you didn't address this point. You did call me dishonest when its pretty
obvious I explicitly stated where my quotes were from and what they referred to.
...

the 26M is

a totally different boat. It may be true that the M performs a bit better

in

some situations, and is a step forward, but they are 95% identical.

How can you possibly believe that?

Because I've watched designs from various architects evolved over the years.
Changes like swapping a centerboard for a dagger are interesting but do not
change the fundamental nature of the boat. A number of powerboat companies even
offer the same boat with two different hulls - one with a deeper vee - so people
can chose which is best for their environent; but most will view the boats as
essentially the same. Adding 12 feet of sail area, and shifting the cockpit aft
a few inches may make a difference, but its not that big. Clearly, taken as a
whole, the differences are big enough to consider the X and M different boats,
but still, they are so close that most statement made about one, when comparing
to any other boats, will apply to the other.

BTW, my builder just introduced a new version of my boat, designed for racing.
The sail area was increased 29%, the weight was reduced 20% (probably 30% off of
my "cruising" version), and the fixed (unweighted) keels were replaced with
daggerboards. Now that's making a serious difference in the design.

The hull design of the 26M is
substantially and significantly changed, now having with a deep
16-degree V rather than a relatively flat bottom throughout; the swing
keel of the x boat has been replaced by a dagger board that is much more
narrow, and that can be adjusted vertically as desired without altering
the center of lateral resistance, as with a swing keel; the boat no
longer depends on a water ballast exclusively, but additionally includes
permanent ballast to enhance stability and provide greater safety when
motoring without the water ballast. Additionally, the 26M includes a new
rotatable mast, floatation in the mast to minimize the possibility of
capsizing, new chain plates, new standing rigging design, more
attractive and more comfortable cabin, etc., etc.

Mostly, these are improvements. But stepping back just a few feet, they are the
same boat.

When you realize the it has an entirely different hull, different keel,
different sail plan, rigging, and taller mast, rotaing mast, addition of
permanent ballast, I would call this a substantially different boat.
If you want to call it the "same" boat with some improvements, I suppose
it may depend on your definition of terms. In any event, please
understand that I am not trying to say that the Mac26M is a racing boat
capable of winning races against J boats or the like. It's a cruising
sailboat with a number of capabilities, but it isn't a racer.
Nevertheless, I think that it will sail fast enough, and point high
enough, to be fun to sail. That's what I have been told by several who
have sailed the boat. If I'm wrong (and it turns out that I don't enjoy
sailing the boat because of its limitations), I'll post a note saying
that I was wrong.

The "foam in the mast" sound like a good thing, until you consider that the mast
is so small its only provideding a few pounds of floatation. In moderate
conditions there's no reason why it should turtle, unless you forgot the water
ballast. In heavy conditions, the modest amount of floatation is meaningless.

The foamed mast isn't the only thing tending to keep the boat upright
and afloat. It's an addition that apparently keeps the mast from going
under.

...

It may be the performance under sail has improved a bit, but frankly it

couldn't

get much worse.

Last week I spoke with an owner who does race his boat, and he stated
that the 26M's performance was a substantial improvement over the 26x,
and that he is now routinely beating many boats that he hadn't with his
26x. He wasn't saying that he was coming in first, but he did say that
it was doing much better. I don't know what boats he was racing, and
it's a little early to make judgments on the new model, with relatively
few having been sold to potential racers. (Most are bought for family
cruising, not racing.)

Jim

But the sail isn't that much bigger, and the hull isn't

that

different, and the fundamental problems with the design haven't been

changed.

See my comments above. I think the boat will perform competitively
against most 26-ft boats. But it wasn't designed as a racer, and that's
not my primary interest.

Competitive with other 26 footers??? Very doubtful. Why is it that there's no
record yet of a PHRF rating for it? And don't give the 175 nonsense!

Why do you keep harping on the racing performance of the boat? It isn't
sold as a racing yacht, and very few of the new model have been sold to
sailors who are into competitive racing.
d abIsn't

But if it does perform so much better, why was the salesman afraid to let

you

test it?

He wasn't "afraid" to let me test it. - He didn't have any of the boats
in stock. He had sold one other one, that arrived later, and he didn't
want me to sail one that had been sold to someone else. He was going to
get only one more in the next five months or so, which I ordered.

Whatever you say, Jim. This is so ridiculous its hardly worth commenting on.

But still true, nonetheless.

However, you claimed several times that they were backordered and hard to get.
But somehow you were able to get your dealers entire spring allotment, with a 2
month delivery. Given that the boat has to be finished and setup at the
factory, that sounds like instant delivery. You'll probably get you boat faster
than I'll get my new kitchen chairs that I just ordered.

I'll get it on the water about 1.5 months after I placed the order. The
dealer had sold two of his allotment, and had one left or this Spring.

As previously explained, I have sailed a number of MacGregor boats, and
the new model has corrected the several problems I saw with the x model,
while retaining its advantages and versatility.

So now you're admitting they're mostly the same.

I'm saying that it incorporates the many good features and handling
provided in the previous models, and also eliminates several of the
features with which I had a problem in the 26x. It's a somewhat
heavier, faster, more stable, better pointing boat.

In discussing the boat
with Mac owners, everyone I spoke with who had sailed the 26M was
positive regarding the new boat.

Jim

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...

Once again, your post quotes from owners of Macs, but not owners of Mac
26Ms. One owner states that he has owned his boat for four years. - But
the Mac 26M was first sold in 2003, only 10 months ago. (AN OBVIOUSLY
DECEPTIVE CITE.)

Read my note again, a little more carefully. I never stated that I
spoke with an owner who had had his boat four years, but hadn't sailed
the 26M. My statement in this regard was:

I have sailed a number of MacGregor boats, and the new model has
corrected the several problems I saw with the x model, while retaining
its advantages and versatility. In discussing the boat with Mac owners,
everyone I spoke with WHO HAD SAILED THE 26M was positive regarding the
new boat. [Emphasis added] That is a true statement and there is no
deception whatsoever.

Regarding pointing ability and speed under sail,
eveyone I speak with who has saild the 26M tells me that the new hull
and keel arrangment are a significant improvement.

How about a little more intellectual honesty when repeating quotes like
these.

Jim

Jeff Morris wrote:

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...

You could have sailed the boat yourself. I suppose the dealer told you

that is

not possible now because he doesn't have a demonstrator.

Maybe, if I had wanted to travel across the country to another dealer.

Jim

I have sailed several of the previous models, and I've been following
their development and improvements for over 10 years. The Mac 26M
incorporates several changes that I had wanted to see in the other
boats. Regarding sailing the boat, however, it is almost impossible to
get a dealer to permit you to sail the boat out because of the very
limited supply and heavy demand for the boats.

Especially on April 1.

Or, you could listen to what owners say.

(Owners of what? The 26x? And, why should I listen to what the owners
say, since you just warned me (in the note copied below) that the
owners can't be trusted since they don't want to admit that they made a
mistake in buying the boat.

And when did I say that owners of the 26x made a mistake when they
bought their boats? Do you have any concern for accuracy, or a minimal
level of intellectual honesty, Jeff?? Do you consider distorting my
statements to be great sport?

No, you just have to be careful when you interpret them. The comments of a
novice sailer who just spent $30K are not that reliable.

You can find dozens of comments that

the top speed under power in flat water to be 12-13 knots,

You may be thinking of a discussion regarding the top speed of the boat
WITH the water ballast and with a full load of passengers. The MacGregor
site makes it clear that the top speeds are only possible under certain
conditions. For example:

Top speed is obtained with an empty ballast tank, no rigging, and
one person aboard. With a full ballast tank, it will be about 3 mph
slower than with an empty tank

No one is trying to claim that the boat will sail at 18 knots with the
water ballast, in heavy chop, and with a full load of passengers. Also,
it would be foolhardy to go offshore without the water ballast.

and that it

could

be

hard to get on a plane in a moderate chop.

I suppose it may depend on what you consider a moderate chop, and
whether you have the boat loaded down with multiple passengers, and what
kind of motor you have, and what direction the wind is blowing and the
waves running, and how high the wind is and what direction it is coming
from, and whether you remembered to put down all the sails, and whether
you have developed some skill in handling the boat, etc., etc., etc. You
apparently are taking the few negative statements about the boat WITHOUT
QUESTION, and swallowing them hook-line-and-sinker. (Searching for them,
in fact.) How do you know that the quotes you are citing aren't from
total novices with little sailing know-how. - Why do you assume that
every negative comment is the gospel truth, and every positive comment
is propaganda or naiveté? How about giving the boat a little more time,
and giving it's skippers a little more time to develop their skills with
the boat.

Yet you keep insisting you

can

make

18 knots offshore.

Could you give me the date and time of that post? I can't seem to find it.

(Top speed of what? The 26x?) From the comments I have seen on various
ngs, the X has sailed and motored much faster than that.

There are 6,000 26x boats, and lots and lots of owners have sailed them,
modified them, and raced them. There are only about 500 26m boats, and
comparatively few owners have had much time on the water with the Ms, to
sail or race the boat. From everyone I have spoken to who has sailed
both boats, the 26M is faster. Nevertheless, in view of the statistics
of 6,000 owners vs 400 owners, it would be highly unlikely that Mac 26M
owners would have bested all the records set over the past seven years
by owners of the 26x.

Yes, there are people that power very "light" and get more speed. There

are

also people that almost did it once and talk about like its an everyday
occurrence. But if you go through the lists you'll find people that give

more

believable accounts. The web site itself is explicit that 18 knots is
completely unloaded: no ballast, no mast and rigging, no crew or gear.

As I stated above.

I

heard

the skipper they chose weighed 130 pounds.

In fact, it was
recently stated on the Mac discussion group that the PHRF of the Mac 26x
has recently been lowered from over 200 to 135. If the boat is as slow
as you say, how did it get a PHRF of 135? (And if you should disagree
with this or if you want to question the accuracy of this statement,
give us a web site or reference sourses on which we can check out
whatever you claim it is.)

Now that you've admitted that this was a hoax that you bought, "hook, line

and

sinker," perhaps you should consider what other fantasies you've bought

into.

Wrong again, Jeff. I didn't accept that statement "hook, line, and
sinker" at all. I noted that someone had made the statement on another
discussion group, and asked if anyone had any information about it.

If you google "mac 26x phrf" the first hit is:
http://www.vycsd.com/summer-comb.pdf

I may not have sailed one, but I've sailed by them a number of times. In

a

small chop they bob around and don't move. The people on board wonder

why

all

the other boats are going by; it doesn't look like fun at all.

To my knowledge, and after extensive searching, no one who owns one of
the Mac 26M's has posted any comments of that nature. (If you know of
such a site, give me a link.) By contrast, the reports I have seen
regarding the 26M have been universally positive.

I've seen very little about the 26M, but for the 26x from the Sailnet list:

When asked about max speed:

"My max speed under sail was
6.25 knots on a 90 degree beam reach (wind coming directly off starboard)

in

a 10 knot wind with 15 knot gusts. What a great day of sailing! I have a
combo depth and speedometer on my boat that actually registered 7+ knots

but

only momentarily during the same run. Two people on board (total) with I'm
guessing about 300 lbs of gear and provisions for a week long trip. That 21
mph thing is for powering with no gear, no sail rigging etc. The fastest
I've been under power w/ a Honda 50 is 12 to 13 knots - according to my
g.p.s. - 14 m.p.h. I hopes this helps."

"The best speed, under standard sails, I have ever done
is 7 MPH. Checked with GPS."

"5.5 knots (est., before I got my GPS)"

There were a few impressive comments such as:

"Our fastest sustained speed has been 11.2 knots.
...
150 genoa + main
...
Winds were at our aft quarter @ 25 knots, gusting to 35. Waves were 4 - 5
feet. We were on a large inland lake. We were surfing on the waves, so
some of the speed was certainly from the wave action.
...
As a side note, working our way back into those same winds (gusting to 40
knots by that time), the speed was very slow, due to the steep, close wave
action. The light weight of the X is a disadvantage when going to weather
with any significant wave action."

Other comments:
"When it gets choppy, you may want to fill the ballast tank.
Then you can cruise effortlessly at about 10 mph or about 14-15 max. When
the wind is forward of the bow, the ride gets pretty wet above about 10 mph
if there is any chop at all. In summary, powering will increase your

range,

but maybe not as much as you think. It is the trailer that really opens up
new areas."

From an owner of 4 years:

(For the benefit of your readers, Jeff, it should be noted that this,
and several of your other lengthy quotes, are from owners of the 26x,
not the 26M.)

"Initial tenderness: The boat will initially heel the first 10 degrees
rather quickly when presented to the wind. Once there, it will become
quite stable. This is a feature of all water ballasted boats, as there
is no righting moment until the ballast is lifted out of the water, and
the long slender CB doesn't present a lot of lateral resistance.

"Poor Pointing: Light weight, transom drag, and high freeboard all
impair the boats ability to maintain speed pointing high. While the
boat will point quite high, you'll sacrifice speed to do so. Sailing
about 10 degrees off maximum point, and making wide tacks to maintain
speed is one solution.

"High freeboard: You'll find the boat makes quite a bit more leeway than
your Cat. Windward, you'll find pointing well above the mark and then
bearing down to maintain speed around it is effective. Docking in a
crosswind can be tricky, but this same light weight makes the helm
pretty responsive (NTM having a lot of power available).

"Light wind: Not very fast. The relatively small sailplan and the drag
created by the CB slot and the flat, square transom. Sometimes these
are just the conditions where having high speed ability is nice. I've
often powered out into the Strait to higher winds, leaving the other
boats behind in the doldrums (going slightly faster than I used to be..)

"Waves and Chop: You really have to pay attention to prevent being
stopped. Light weight translates into low momentum. Bear into the base
of the wave and then bear off as it passes under you. Having a smooth
hand on the responsive helm can nearly eliminate this."

I have no trouble with someone choosing a Mac because they want to

trailer it toflat water lakes. That's what its designed for. But not for taking it
offshore.

According to the manufacturer, their boat is designed for coastal
cruising. Which is what I intend to do.
Actually, I think Roger MacGregor's words were "limited coastal cruising"

Jeff, could I possibly interest you in a bridge I have for sale? The
purported comments of Roger MacGregor on his ng were an obvious hoax. -
Check my several previous notes on this subject.

Jim

I was a Mac26X owner

When you realize it's a piece of crap...

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...
When you realize the it

Foamed mast??? I guess they're expecting the worst!

The foamed mast isn't the only thing tending to keep the boat upright
and afloat. It's an addition that apparently keeps the mast from going
under.

Greater than 3 kts on a beam... wow... speedster.

Last week I spoke with an owner who does race his boat, and he stated
that the 26M's performance was a substantial improvement over the 26x,
and that he is now routinely beating many boats that he hadn't with his
26x. He wasn't saying that he was coming in first, but he did say that
it was doing much better. I don't know what boats he was racing, and
it's a little early to make judgments on the new model, with relatively
few having been sold to potential racers. (Most are bought for family
cruising, not racing.)

I was a Mac26X owner

"Jim Cate" wrote in message regarding Mac26M

| snip very few of the new model have been sold to
| sailors who are into competitive racing.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA!!!!!!! !

Want to try.... NONE!??????

CM

I was a Mac26X owner

So much nonsense here Jim. You're really having trouble with reality.

Even after I pointed out that I had prefaced my quotes with a comment that they
were taken from the 26X list and applied to that boat, you still insist I'm
trying to mislead. I don't think anyone was misled; but you keep claiming I'm
lying. This calls for an apology, and an admission that you have trouble with
the concept of reality.

Which brings us to your posting titled "Mac PHRF lowered to 135." If that
isn't buying it hook, line and sinker, I don't know what is. You say you asked
for verification, but you didn't even provide a link. Even after people said it
was absurd you claimed:

"In fact, it was
recently stated on the Mac discussion group that the PHRF of the Mac 26x
has recently been lowered from over 200 to 135. If the boat is as slow
as you say, how did it get a PHRF of 135? (And if you should disagree
with this or if you want to question the accuracy of this statement,
give us a web site or reference sources on which we can check out
whatever you claim it is.)"

In other words, even though you weren't giving a source, you were claiming its
true and challenging everyone to disprove it. Even after admitting it was a
hoax, you were claiming the rating is 175.

As for racing,, I only mention it because you've stated a number of times that
they are "competitive" with other boats. Given the large number produced, one
might expect to find some record of a race they've participated in. There is no
such record for the 26M, and only scanty record for the 26X. If you really have
talked to someone who races them, you should be able to tell what rating they
enjoy.

And once again I say the your claim that "the factory cannot keep up with the
demand" is total nonsense. You're getting yours in 6 weeks - that's pretty much
"off the shelf." More BS from you.

About the top speed- you're the one that keeps claiming you can do 18 knots,
even thought the factory site admits that is not possible in a "real life"
situation. I haven't been making this stuff up - I've just been trying to keep
you honest by reporting what the factory and owners have said. Now you're
claiming you didn't say it, but you made the following statements:

"Am I going to be stranded off-shore in unexpected weather conditions? -
(Actually, since the boat can motor back at 18 mph, it has a better
chance of getting back to shore faster than a displacement boat."

"I'm getting a boat that's capable of motoring in 1.5 feet of water and
sailing offshore, motoring at 18 knots to a desired destination, "

"Regarding access to good sailing areas, the MacGregor can plane out
to the desired sailing are at around 15-18 knots"

"Like, planing the boat at around 12 knots under sail, or 18
knots under power."

Now its been stated, even my you, that these speeds are not achievable with a
normal configuration. The figure of 18 knots did not even include mast, sails,
rigging, food, water, gear, full fuel, or more that one (very thin) person. To
repeat the claims over and other shows the "intellectual dishonestly" you
attribute to others. In reality, most owners of the 26X report 10 to 12 knots
(less if there's a chop). There's no reason to believe the 26M is substantially
faster.

Some of your comments I don't know what to make of - you seem to responding to
your own comments. It really seems this ordeal has gotten the better of you.
In fact, at the end you took my quote from Roger MacGregor (about the 26X) and
changed his words from "limited coastal sailing" to :limited coastal cruising."
Then you came back and claimed this was all from the hoax poster. In reality I
took the quote verbatim from the Practical Sailor review. Let me repeat the
full quote and my comments, since they are at the heart of this issue:

This is why Roger MacGregor said, "The 26 was designed for typical small
cruising boat use-inland waters and limited coastal sailing." By "limited," I
think he's saying one should stay close to safe refuge, and watch the weather
very, very carefully. Note that he didn't use the word "cruising" which implies
longer voyages.

I was a Mac26X owner

Sure, in your dreams.

40+ gust - 27 steady
33+ av - 50+ peak
35 av (a full gale) - 52 gusts.

I maintain, at 35 knt wind speed a dinghy is out of the range of
managability. Anyone who says otherwise has either never sailed in such
winds or is a braggard.

Just as a matter of record, Doug what is your club policy on wind
strength for abandoning dinghy races?

Cheers

DSK wrote:

My wife and I have raced the Johnson 18 several times in 30+ and twice
won regattas where the wind was measured 33 steady and 40+ peak. This
was in racing mode, playing shifts and tactics, rather than survival
mode. Would you call that "in the range of manageability?"

I was a Mac26X owner

OK you're a braggard.

Cheers

OzOne wrote:

On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 10:35:11 +1200, Navigator
scribbled thusly:

Sure, in your dreams.

40+ gust - 27 steady
33+ av - 50+ peak
35 av (a full gale) - 52 gusts.

I maintain, at 35 knt wind speed a dinghy is out of the range of
managability. Anyone who says otherwise has either never sailed in such
winds or is a braggard.

Just as a matter of record, Doug what is your club policy on wind
strength for abandoning dinghy races?

Call me a braggard ...but...
We won a heat of an Oz champs in dinghys in conditions that built
quickly from around 25 at the start to 35+ after only a few minutes.
It was hard work but managable..we were a full leg ahead by the top
mark the second time..carried a kite on both downwind legs then backed
off and cruised to victory.

Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

I was a Mac26X owner

*******!

OzOne wrote

Call me a braggard ...but...
We won a heat of an Oz champs in dinghys in conditions that built
quickly from around 25 at the start to 35+ after only a few minutes.
It was hard work but managable..we were a full leg ahead by the top
mark the second time..carried a kite on both downwind legs then backed
off and cruised to victory.

Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

I was a Mac26X owner

Oh! sorry, didn't have my glasses on. Old age sucks.

Scotty

OzOne wrote in message ...
On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 22:33:36 -0400, "Scott Vernon"
scribbled thusly:

*******!

No Scootz, that was BRAGGARD, not ******* ;-)

OzOne wrote

Call me a braggard ...but...
We won a heat of an Oz champs in dinghys in conditions that built
quickly from around 25 at the start to 35+ after only a few minutes.
It was hard work but managable..we were a full leg ahead by the top
mark the second time..carried a kite on both downwind legs then backed
off and cruised to victory.

Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

I was a Mac26X owner

YOU MUST BE JOKING!!!!!

25 knots is indeed a walk in the park!!.... and I sail on the Atlantic off
Nova Scotia.

CM

"Veridican" wrote in message
...
| I don't understand
| where Ed is coming from with this stuff...he has said he sailed small
lakes
|
| I sail on the ocean, and I've sailed in 25 knot winds. Anyone who acts
like
| that is a walk in the park doesn't sail; they only talk about it.
|
| The Veridican

I was a Mac26X owner

35 knots is not anywhere near "survival conditions".... it's a good breeze
and a fast passage. My boat is dry at 35 knots. I start getting a teeny
antsy when it tops 45 knots with a double reefed main and 100% jib.....
it's nowhere near scary though. I've been in winds gusting to 55 knots on
the lake... with a triple reefed main and storm jib we made less than
spectacular progress to windward but the gusts weren't knocking us down
either. The best I've done is downwind in 40 knots with full main and 150
genoa..... wing on wing ......and we blew through the reefed down, broad
reaching race fleet like they were standing still. The fleet consisted of
Niagara 35, C&C 27s, Tanzer 27, Frasier 42, Catalina 27s, a home built Tri,
Contessa 32, Alberg 26..... at the 15 mile mark I had a 2 mile lead and was
the second last to cross the start line.

None of the 3 Mac26Xs in Yellowknife competed. Even they weren't that
stupid.

CM

"Veridican" wrote in message
...
| Jeff,
|
| You say 25 knots is more like a jog in the park and 35 is survival
conditions,
| and then you say it's no big deal. 25 knots is 21 mph sustained. It's a
force 6
| wind. In a cruising boat, you should be in harnesses and reefed. In a
dinghy
| you shouldn't go out at all. I'm not saying it can't be fun, but don't
make it
| sound like it's a normal sailing experience. To use your own words, It's a
jog
| in the park.
|
| The Veridican

I was a Mac26X owner

Eggs?

Cheers

Scott Vernon wrote:

Oh! sorry, didn't have my glasses on. Old age sucks.

Scotty

OzOne wrote in message ...

On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 22:33:36 -0400, "Scott Vernon"
scribbled thusly:

*******!

No Scootz, that was BRAGGARD, not ******* ;-)

OzOne wrote

Call me a braggard ...but...
We won a heat of an Oz champs in dinghys in conditions that built
quickly from around 25 at the start to 35+ after only a few minutes.
It was hard work but managable..we were a full leg ahead by the top
mark the second time..carried a kite on both downwind legs then backed
off and cruised to victory.

Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

I was a Mac26X owner

OzOne wrote:

Call me a braggard ...but...

NO WAY! I just read a thread where you were *humble*.

How could they both be truth?

LP

I was a Mac26X owner

"Lady Pilot" wrote in message
news:ntqhc.11214$c%3.194@okepread02...

OzOne wrote:

Call me a braggard ...but...

NO WAY! I just read a thread where you were *humble*.

How could they both be truth?

er, I should have stated "true"...lest Dave or others correct my grammer..
;-)

LP

I was a Mac26X owner

OzOne wrote:
Call me a braggard ...but...
We won a heat of an Oz champs in dinghys in conditions that built
quickly from around 25 at the start to 35+ after only a few minutes.
It was hard work but managable..we were a full leg ahead by the top
mark the second time..carried a kite on both downwind legs then backed
off and cruised to victory.

Sounds like a lot of fun. How did you get so far ahead? Were you worried
about anything breaking? I've had that happen.

In our case, it was simply time in the boat. I had spent probably 3X as
much time sailing that particular boat than any of the others, and had a
much better sense of when to pinch and when to foot in the chop. The
others learned fast though.

It's always fun to arrive at the top mark in a big breeze and see who
goes to work and who starts worrying. Most of the time I just go for it,
but once in a while in the Lightning we said "Let's wait and not set
the spinnaker until the traffic thins out after some of the others have
capsized."

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

I was a Mac26X owner

Navigator wrote:
Sure, in your dreams.

You're calling me a liar, yet again? You don't ever learn.

40+ gust - 27 steady
33+ av - 50+ peak
35 av (a full gale) - 52 gusts.

Oh right, wind patterns are *always* exactly the same, even in different
hemispheres... aren't they?

I maintain, at 35 knt wind speed a dinghy is out of the range of
managability. Anyone who says otherwise has either never sailed in such
winds or is a braggard.

Like Oz1?

Sorry, you just plain don't know what you're talking about. Since you've
always insulted dinghy sailing, how can you now claim to be an expert on it?

Just as a matter of record, Doug what is your club policy on wind
strength for abandoning dinghy races?

One club I used to belong to had a policy of cancelling in "sustained
winds" over 25 knots. The College of Charleston sailing club will not
start a race with measured winds over 30 (I think this is on their web
site). The club I have done most of my sailing with the past few years
doesn't have a policy... but if the race committee has to leave station
to go rescue boats, then obviously the race cannot be scored.

The races I was referring to earlier were on Sarasota Bay. I don't know
what their club policy might be, but it looked like they were holding
races as long as anybody was out there running the course.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

I was a Mac26X owner

OzOne wrote:
Call me a braggard ...but...

Lady Pilot wrote
NO WAY! I just read a thread where you were *humble*.

How could they both be truth?

He comes from humble origins but has now risen to undeniable greatness.

"If'n you can really do it, it ain't braggin'"

DSK

I was a Mac26X owner

OzOne wrote:
We got so far ahead by having totally superior boatspeed in the
conditions and making absolutely no mistakes.
We did it again on the next two races and totally demoralised the
fleet by the 4th race of a 7 race series...Yep, it was fun :-)

Sounds like a great reward for a lot of hard work.

We'd built a brand new boat for this series using everything we'd
learned on the 3 others of the preceding seasons. Used some
innovations that became de rigeur later.

So you built the boat from scratch? Was this the Skate? What were the
innovations?

... We were totally confident in
the ability of the boat to handle anything we demanded of it and
maintained it to perfection. It was a great few years.

I've never built a boat from scratch but have reworked & refurbished a
number of old one-designs. First, the hull has to be solid & light. It's
amazing how many older small fiberglass boats oilcan like crazy, plus
are a few pounds overweight.

One thing I like about the JY-15s is that they are mostly new and very
strong. Racing some other older boats, it was a contest to see if my
work was strong enough for the heavy days, or if the old unfixed stuff
would break faster than I could fix it.

WE usually flew a kite at every opportunity and used it to put huge
pressure on boats in front in fresh stuff. They knew they had to go
for it to stay in front because we would definately fly it.
Often we didn't need to as they had gone for it when we had already
decided that we wouldn't try it on unless they managed to survive the
first hundred metres or so.

I was crew and the skipper, I regard as absolutely without peer in the
fresh.

Nothing like a good set of reflexes attuned to the particular boat.

I had a steady crew through college and a few years after... he was a
great guy and could concentrate totally on the race like few people I've
sailed with. Our on board racing conversations were usually a "yes" or
"no" and perhaps "got it" or "let's go." Since then I usually have a
bunch of newbies, or in the Lightning we have a nearly-newbie friend and
my wife (excellent crew but not interested in racing any more). It's a
big help when you have somebody to work with who is committed & skilled.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

I was a Mac26X owner

Doug doesn't believe in modesty for modest ability.

Cheers

OzOne wrote:

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 08:22:42 -0400, DSK
scribbled thusly:

OzOne wrote:

Call me a braggard ...but...

Lady Pilot wrote
NO WAY! I just read a thread where you were *humble*.

How could they both be truth?

He comes from humble origins but has now risen to undeniable greatness.

"If'n you can really do it, it ain't braggin'"

DSK

Yeah, it is :-)

Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

I was a Mac26X owner

SDo youi prove my point. Over 35 knots average dinghies are outside the
range of managability 'cos thats why the races are canecelled. You still
don't understand?

DSK wrote:

Navigator wrote:

Sure, in your dreams.

You're calling me a liar, yet again? You don't ever learn.

40+ gust - 27 steady
33+ av - 50+ peak
35 av (a full gale) - 52 gusts.

Oh right, wind patterns are *always* exactly the same, even in different
hemispheres... aren't they?

No, that's a met. service observation, true world wide. The gusts are
generally up to 1.5 times windspeed. A real sailor knows this.

I maintain, at 35 knt wind speed a dinghy is out of the range of
managability. Anyone who says otherwise has either never sailed in
such winds or is a braggard.

Like Oz1?

Yep. Memory always exaggerates wind speed.

Just as a matter of record, Doug what is your club policy on wind
strength for abandoning dinghy races?

One club I used to belong to had a policy of cancelling in "sustained
winds" over 25 knots. The College of Charleston sailing club will not
start a race with measured winds over 30 (I think this is on their web
site). The club I have done most of my sailing with the past few years
doesn't have a policy... but if the race committee has to leave station
to go rescue boats, then obviously the race cannot be scored.

So you prove my point. Over 35 knots average, dinghies are
outside the range of managability and that's why the races are
cancelled. I've never heard of a race started in a full gale. As far as
I've experienced, force 7 is considered the point where the race
committee really starts to wonder whether to start a keel boat race and
looks hard at the Meteorology for the race period.

Cheers MC

I was a Mac26X owner

Navigator wrote:
SDo youi prove my point. Over 35 knots average dinghies are outside the
range of managability 'cos thats why the races are canecelled.

Oh, now you want to add the qualifier "average" dinghies? I guess the
ones that keep sailing are above average? And the clubs that don't
cancel races, they also prove your point?

... You still
don't understand?

I don't understand why anybody would think you know diddly squat about
sailing.

DSK

I was a Mac26X owner

DSK wrote:

Navigator wrote:

SDo youi prove my point. Over 35 knots average dinghies are outside
the range of managability 'cos thats why the races are canecelled.

Oh, now you want to add the qualifier "average" dinghies? I guess the
ones that keep sailing are above average? And the clubs that don't
cancel races, they also prove your point?

... You still don't understand?

I don't understand why anybody would think you know diddly squat about
sailing.

I'm suprised at your level of english comprehension.

It's the wind speed that's average, not the dinghies.

Checked up on what the likely gusts are at 35 kn average windspeed yet?

But at least now you know why they cancel races
Bwhahahahhahahaha

Cheers

I was a Mac26X owner

DSK wrote:

I don't understand why anybody would think you know diddly squat about
sailing.

Of course you must be right, you're DSK!
Bwhahahhahahah

Cheers