have blue
 

So? They use the "charge in the slip" option.

--
-jeff

"JAXAshby" wrote in message ...
they also had shoreside batt chargers AND they didn't want to slow down their
boats by dragging a bucket behind.

The sailing school Bart worked at in Norwalk has a fleet of daysailors
(Ensigns?) that are fitting with small electric motors. They don't bother to
regen because they only need 10 minutes to get out and back into the marina.



"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...
Sounds like a reasonable set up. Most daysailors motor 15 minutes to leave
slip, then sail a few hours, and motor 10 minutes to return to slip.
Should
work well for that. And a gen-set as a back up.

Scotty

SV


"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
No, the regen isn't necessarily needed if you start with a topped of
battery. A
system like this gives one a lot of options. Regeneration will not
provide for
all needs, except in limited cases. However, it is nice if it can supply
a
substantial part of the use.


"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
so, the regen doesn't really work unless you plug the batteries in at
the
dock?

okay.

but, if that is the case why buy the regen equipment?


Jaxie, you're having your typical comprehension problem. The 32
hp-hours
generated should be enough for an hour or two of powering - plenty to
power
the
cat out and back into the inlet. Since the batteries give 2 to 4
hours
of
backup, it isn't really necessary to regenerate if you're day sailing
out of
a
slip.

If you want to do long distance powering or motorsailing, you need to
run a
genset. However, a genset run at optimum rpm for recharging will be a
lot
cheaper to run than twin diesels.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
let's see. 22 amps at 144 (sic) volts when sailing 18 knots, for
about 4
hp
stored per hour times 8 hours gives about 32 hp hours.

yup, that works. you sailed 144 miles and now you're going to motor
back
using
1 hp and you are going to do it in just 32 hours (actually about 20
hours
after
taking out ineffiencies).

Being a little sloppy with the units is not that bad - his real
blunder is
claiming 72 Watts output. The Condor catamaran claims 22 Amps at
144
Volts,
or
over 3 kW output when regenerating in a good breeze. They generate
enough
sailing during the day to power in and out of their inlet.


"Martin Baxter" wrote in message
...
JAXAshby wrote:
oh, you mean horsepower can not be compared to watts?

Gee, the European engine manufacturers do it all the time.
somebody
should
tell them you can't do that.

No, I mean this:

"6 amps at 12 volts for 24 hours = 1,728 watts, which = 2.3
hp-hours."

Amps times Volts times hours = Watt-hrs, a unit of energy
Horspower times hours= hp-hrs, a unit of energy
Watts are units of power
Horsepower is a unit of power (who would of thought it?)

Energy and power are two different things, which you well know.

Cheers
Marty

have blue
 

People claim lots of things. Are you claiming one of those towed generators is more efficient than
a large prop driving a modern motor generator? And why do you think they did it, was it just to
slow the boat down, or did they think it was the best way to generate some extra power? Are you
claiming you'd rather run a genset a few hours a day to keep the freezer going?

-jeff




"JAXAshby" wrote in message ...
However, in the tradewinds many boats can generate a lot of
power without compromising speed.

this is not generally the statement made by those who have towed water powered
gens behind their boats. In fact, most such sailor report it costs them about
a half knot or more boat speed to generate even 70 watts, let alone 3,000
watts.

have blue
 

Jaxass doesn't sail... obviously.

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
The 47 foot, 20,000 lb. cat my numbers are from used two 12 horse engines.
Running off a 10 kW
genset, it could make 7 knots. So your numbers are, typically, off by a
factor of three.

Further why do you assume the boat sails out as far as it can, and then
powers all the way back? Is
that what you normally do? Most people will sail back to their marine or
inlet, etc. and then power
in.

--
-jeff

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
let's see. 2 22 hp engines running a total of 25 minutes uses (with
100%
efficiency) uses approzimatedl 13,752.345627 watts. The boat produces
(at 9
knots) about 3,000 watts.

This means that with 100% efficiency that sailboat only has to make 9
knots for
just under 5 hours.

And at 9 knots for 5 hours, the boat is 45 miles away.

howya gonna git home in 10 minutes in that boat?

Sounds like a reasonable set up. Most daysailors motor 15 minutes to
leave
slip, then sail a few hours, and motor 10 minutes to return to slip.
Should
work well for that. And a gen-set as a back up.

Scotty

SV


"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
No, the regen isn't necessarily needed if you start with a topped of
battery. A
system like this gives one a lot of options. Regeneration will not
provide for
all needs, except in limited cases. However, it is nice if it can
supply
a
substantial part of the use.


"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
so, the regen doesn't really work unless you plug the batteries in
at
the
dock?

okay.

but, if that is the case why buy the regen equipment?


Jaxie, you're having your typical comprehension problem. The 32
hp-hours
generated should be enough for an hour or two of powering - plenty
to
power
the
cat out and back into the inlet. Since the batteries give 2 to 4
hours
of
backup, it isn't really necessary to regenerate if you're day
sailing
out of
a
slip.

If you want to do long distance powering or motorsailing, you need
to
run a
genset. However, a genset run at optimum rpm for recharging will
be a
lot
cheaper to run than twin diesels.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
let's see. 22 amps at 144 (sic) volts when sailing 18 knots,
for
about 4
hp
stored per hour times 8 hours gives about 32 hp hours.

yup, that works. you sailed 144 miles and now you're going to
motor
back
using
1 hp and you are going to do it in just 32 hours (actually about
20
hours
after
taking out ineffiencies).

Being a little sloppy with the units is not that bad - his real
blunder is
claiming 72 Watts output. The Condor catamaran claims 22 Amps
at
144
Volts,
or
over 3 kW output when regenerating in a good breeze. They
generate
enough
sailing during the day to power in and out of their inlet.


"Martin Baxter" wrote in message
...
JAXAshby wrote:
oh, you mean horsepower can not be compared to watts?

Gee, the European engine manufacturers do it all the time.
somebody
should
tell them you can't do that.

No, I mean this:

"6 amps at 12 volts for 24 hours = 1,728 watts, which = 2.3
hp-hours."

Amps times Volts times hours = Watt-hrs, a unit of energy
Horspower times hours= hp-hrs, a unit of energy
Watts are units of power
Horsepower is a unit of power (who would of thought it?)

Energy and power are two different things, which you well
know.

Cheers
Marty

have blue
 

I meant graduated from jr. high, because if you did, the
school system needs to be overhauled.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
why, yes I did.

did you ever get out jr high?

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
jon, I have been hearing that very same story regarding fuel cells
since I
was
in junior high school in the 50's.

let's see when they arrive on the market.

hey're getting competitive quickly. Another few years and
it'll make sense for most boats to go this way. Fossil fuels
are a stupid solution.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
Costs are going to get competitive over time

sure they are. in the 25th century, or by the 29th century for
sure,
if
not by
the year 4,000.

Even when you include a
small genset for the "diesel-electric" approach there's a big win
in
the
long
term "total cost of investment."

*if* total cost of investment means total cost of investment the
breakeven
point may never be reached.

but keep hoping and praying.

have blue
 

So, now you're claiming that they aren't viable? They don't work?
No one uses them?

okay jaxass. anything you say.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
ah, I see. all it takes to make fuel cells viable is FAITH!!!

okay joony. anything you say.

Probably. At least I'm not a dinosaur in my thinking.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
joony, do you have stock in yet another fuel cell company?

Go away. You're stupid and boring.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
But the elect. motor/gen. sounds ideal if the costs
could be competitive.

AND if you are willing to sail for 173 days straight just to motor
less
than a
day. (see prior post).

have blue
 

so, you are going to replace 2 12 hp engines with one 15 hp engine driving a
generator (losing efficiency), which in turn drives two electric motors (losing
efficiency).

Now how in hell is that an improvement?

The 47 foot, 20,000 lb. cat my numbers are from used two 12 horse engines.
Running off a 10 kW
genset, it could make 7 knots. So your numbers are, typically, off by a
factor of three.

have blue
 

it is not an option. it is the only source of power they have. they chose to
NOT have regens onboard.

So? They use the "charge in the slip" option.

--
-jeff

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
they also had shoreside batt chargers AND they didn't want to slow down
their
boats by dragging a bucket behind.

The sailing school Bart worked at in Norwalk has a fleet of daysailors
(Ensigns?) that are fitting with small electric motors. They don't bother
to
regen because they only need 10 minutes to get out and back into the
marina.



"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...
Sounds like a reasonable set up. Most daysailors motor 15 minutes to
leave
slip, then sail a few hours, and motor 10 minutes to return to slip.
Should
work well for that. And a gen-set as a back up.

Scotty

SV


"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
No, the regen isn't necessarily needed if you start with a topped of
battery. A
system like this gives one a lot of options. Regeneration will not
provide for
all needs, except in limited cases. However, it is nice if it can
supply
a
substantial part of the use.


"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
so, the regen doesn't really work unless you plug the batteries in
at
the
dock?

okay.

but, if that is the case why buy the regen equipment?


Jaxie, you're having your typical comprehension problem. The 32
hp-hours
generated should be enough for an hour or two of powering - plenty
to
power
the
cat out and back into the inlet. Since the batteries give 2 to 4
hours
of
backup, it isn't really necessary to regenerate if you're day
sailing
out of
a
slip.

If you want to do long distance powering or motorsailing, you need
to
run a
genset. However, a genset run at optimum rpm for recharging will
be a
lot
cheaper to run than twin diesels.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
let's see. 22 amps at 144 (sic) volts when sailing 18 knots, for
about 4
hp
stored per hour times 8 hours gives about 32 hp hours.

yup, that works. you sailed 144 miles and now you're going to
motor
back
using
1 hp and you are going to do it in just 32 hours (actually about
20
hours
after
taking out ineffiencies).

Being a little sloppy with the units is not that bad - his real
blunder is
claiming 72 Watts output. The Condor catamaran claims 22 Amps
at
144
Volts,
or
over 3 kW output when regenerating in a good breeze. They
generate
enough
sailing during the day to power in and out of their inlet.


"Martin Baxter" wrote in message
...
JAXAshby wrote:
oh, you mean horsepower can not be compared to watts?

Gee, the European engine manufacturers do it all the time.
somebody
should
tell them you can't do that.

No, I mean this:

"6 amps at 12 volts for 24 hours = 1,728 watts, which = 2.3
hp-hours."

Amps times Volts times hours = Watt-hrs, a unit of energy
Horspower times hours= hp-hrs, a unit of energy
Watts are units of power
Horsepower is a unit of power (who would of thought it?)

Energy and power are two different things, which you well
know.

Cheers
Marty

have blue
 

no, I was saying that people who use 70 watt towed generators report speed
losses of about 1/2 knot, and therefore some consideration that a 3,000 watt
towed generator would have AT LEAST that much drag, and maybe -- just maybe,
you understand -- rather a bit more.

remember your alleged physics class, jeffie? remember TANSTAAFL?



People claim lots of things. Are you claiming one of those towed generators
is more efficient than
a large prop driving a modern motor generator? And why do you think they did
it, was it just to
slow the boat down, or did they think it was the best way to generate some
extra power? Are you
claiming you'd rather run a genset a few hours a day to keep the freezer
going?

-jeff




"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
However, in the tradewinds many boats can generate a lot of
power without compromising speed.

this is not generally the statement made by those who have towed water
powered
gens behind their boats. In fact, most such sailor report it costs them
about
a half knot or more boat speed to generate even 70 watts, let alone 3,000
watts.

have blue
 

Yes, I said I graduate from (sic) Jr High School.

And yes, the fact that you, joony, couldn't understand elementary school
English does mean maybe the system should be overhauled.

I meant graduated from jr. high, because if you did, the
school system needs to be overhauled.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
why, yes I did.

did you ever get out jr high?

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
jon, I have been hearing that very same story regarding fuel cells
since I
was
in junior high school in the 50's.

let's see when they arrive on the market.

hey're getting competitive quickly. Another few years and
it'll make sense for most boats to go this way. Fossil fuels
are a stupid solution.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
Costs are going to get competitive over time

sure they are. in the 25th century, or by the 29th century for
sure,
if
not by
the year 4,000.

Even when you include a
small genset for the "diesel-electric" approach there's a big win
in
the
long
term "total cost of investment."

*if* total cost of investment means total cost of investment the
breakeven
point may never be reached.

but keep hoping and praying.

have blue
 

you are a slow study, joony, but you get there, don't you.

So, now you're claiming that they aren't viable? They don't work?
No one uses them?

okay jaxass. anything you say.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
ah, I see. all it takes to make fuel cells viable is FAITH!!!

okay joony. anything you say.

Probably. At least I'm not a dinosaur in my thinking.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
joony, do you have stock in yet another fuel cell company?

Go away. You're stupid and boring.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
But the elect. motor/gen. sounds ideal if the costs
could be competitive.

AND if you are willing to sail for 173 days straight just to motor
less
than a
day. (see prior post).