have blue
 

did you ever get out jr high?

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
jon, I have been hearing that very same story regarding fuel cells since I
was
in junior high school in the 50's.

let's see when they arrive on the market.

hey're getting competitive quickly. Another few years and
it'll make sense for most boats to go this way. Fossil fuels
are a stupid solution.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
Costs are going to get competitive over time

sure they are. in the 25th century, or by the 29th century for sure,
if
not by
the year 4,000.

Even when you include a
small genset for the "diesel-electric" approach there's a big win in
the
long
term "total cost of investment."

*if* total cost of investment means total cost of investment the
breakeven
point may never be reached.

but keep hoping and praying.

have blue
 

Probably. At least I'm not a dinosaur in my thinking.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
joony, do you have stock in yet another fuel cell company?

Go away. You're stupid and boring.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
But the elect. motor/gen. sounds ideal if the costs
could be competitive.

AND if you are willing to sail for 173 days straight just to motor less
than a
day. (see prior post).

have blue
 

no, I assumed the standard generator size that is normally belted to a prop to
produce amps, the one that steals about 1/3 hp from the boat speed.

you, on the other hand jeffies, assumed a generator that steals about 5 hp from
the boat speed.

I figure now you didn't then know what 3 KW means, so now you are trying to run
around in circles until you turn into butter.

Poor jaxie is off by a factor of around 30 or 40 because he assumed the
generator is the same one he uses on his bicycle.


"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
okay, here's the math condensed.

173 days sailing needed to produce enough energy to motor 1 day.

sounds like too long jax, re-do your math. Take a couple days, then get
back to us.

SV


"JAXAshby" wrote

AND if you are willing to sail for 173 days straight just to motor less
than a
day. (see prior post).

have blue
 

let's see. 2 22 hp engines running a total of 25 minutes uses (with 100%
efficiency) uses approzimatedl 13,752.345627 watts. The boat produces (at 9
knots) about 3,000 watts.

This means that with 100% efficiency that sailboat only has to make 9 knots for
just under 5 hours.

And at 9 knots for 5 hours, the boat is 45 miles away.

howya gonna git home in 10 minutes in that boat?

Sounds like a reasonable set up. Most daysailors motor 15 minutes to leave
slip, then sail a few hours, and motor 10 minutes to return to slip. Should
work well for that. And a gen-set as a back up.

Scotty

SV


"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
No, the regen isn't necessarily needed if you start with a topped of
battery. A
system like this gives one a lot of options. Regeneration will not
provide for
all needs, except in limited cases. However, it is nice if it can supply
a
substantial part of the use.


"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
so, the regen doesn't really work unless you plug the batteries in at
the
dock?

okay.

but, if that is the case why buy the regen equipment?


Jaxie, you're having your typical comprehension problem. The 32
hp-hours
generated should be enough for an hour or two of powering - plenty to
power
the
cat out and back into the inlet. Since the batteries give 2 to 4 hours
of
backup, it isn't really necessary to regenerate if you're day sailing
out of
a
slip.

If you want to do long distance powering or motorsailing, you need to
run a
genset. However, a genset run at optimum rpm for recharging will be a
lot
cheaper to run than twin diesels.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
let's see. 22 amps at 144 (sic) volts when sailing 18 knots, for
about 4
hp
stored per hour times 8 hours gives about 32 hp hours.

yup, that works. you sailed 144 miles and now you're going to motor
back
using
1 hp and you are going to do it in just 32 hours (actually about 20
hours
after
taking out ineffiencies).

Being a little sloppy with the units is not that bad - his real
blunder is
claiming 72 Watts output. The Condor catamaran claims 22 Amps at
144
Volts,
or
over 3 kW output when regenerating in a good breeze. They generate
enough
sailing during the day to power in and out of their inlet.


"Martin Baxter" wrote in message
...
JAXAshby wrote:
oh, you mean horsepower can not be compared to watts?

Gee, the European engine manufacturers do it all the time.
somebody
should
tell them you can't do that.

No, I mean this:

"6 amps at 12 volts for 24 hours = 1,728 watts, which = 2.3
hp-hours."

Amps times Volts times hours = Watt-hrs, a unit of energy
Horspower times hours= hp-hrs, a unit of energy
Watts are units of power
Horsepower is a unit of power (who would of thought it?)

Energy and power are two different things, which you well know.

Cheers
Marty

have blue
 

they also had shoreside batt chargers AND they didn't want to slow down their
boats by dragging a bucket behind.

The sailing school Bart worked at in Norwalk has a fleet of daysailors
(Ensigns?) that are fitting with small electric motors. They don't bother to
regen because they only need 10 minutes to get out and back into the marina.



"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...
Sounds like a reasonable set up. Most daysailors motor 15 minutes to leave
slip, then sail a few hours, and motor 10 minutes to return to slip.
Should
work well for that. And a gen-set as a back up.

Scotty

SV


"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
No, the regen isn't necessarily needed if you start with a topped of
battery. A
system like this gives one a lot of options. Regeneration will not
provide for
all needs, except in limited cases. However, it is nice if it can supply
a
substantial part of the use.


"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
so, the regen doesn't really work unless you plug the batteries in at
the
dock?

okay.

but, if that is the case why buy the regen equipment?


Jaxie, you're having your typical comprehension problem. The 32
hp-hours
generated should be enough for an hour or two of powering - plenty to
power
the
cat out and back into the inlet. Since the batteries give 2 to 4
hours
of
backup, it isn't really necessary to regenerate if you're day sailing
out of
a
slip.

If you want to do long distance powering or motorsailing, you need to
run a
genset. However, a genset run at optimum rpm for recharging will be a
lot
cheaper to run than twin diesels.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
let's see. 22 amps at 144 (sic) volts when sailing 18 knots, for
about 4
hp
stored per hour times 8 hours gives about 32 hp hours.

yup, that works. you sailed 144 miles and now you're going to motor
back
using
1 hp and you are going to do it in just 32 hours (actually about 20
hours
after
taking out ineffiencies).

Being a little sloppy with the units is not that bad - his real
blunder is
claiming 72 Watts output. The Condor catamaran claims 22 Amps at
144
Volts,
or
over 3 kW output when regenerating in a good breeze. They generate
enough
sailing during the day to power in and out of their inlet.


"Martin Baxter" wrote in message
...
JAXAshby wrote:
oh, you mean horsepower can not be compared to watts?

Gee, the European engine manufacturers do it all the time.
somebody
should
tell them you can't do that.

No, I mean this:

"6 amps at 12 volts for 24 hours = 1,728 watts, which = 2.3
hp-hours."

Amps times Volts times hours = Watt-hrs, a unit of energy
Horspower times hours= hp-hrs, a unit of energy
Watts are units of power
Horsepower is a unit of power (who would of thought it?)

Energy and power are two different things, which you well know.

Cheers
Marty

have blue
 

However, in the tradewinds many boats can generate a lot of
power without compromising speed.

this is not generally the statement made by those who have towed water powered
gens behind their boats. In fact, most such sailor report it costs them about
a half knot or more boat speed to generate even 70 watts, let alone 3,000
watts.

have blue
 

why, yes I did.

did you ever get out jr high?

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
jon, I have been hearing that very same story regarding fuel cells since I
was
in junior high school in the 50's.

let's see when they arrive on the market.

hey're getting competitive quickly. Another few years and
it'll make sense for most boats to go this way. Fossil fuels
are a stupid solution.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
Costs are going to get competitive over time

sure they are. in the 25th century, or by the 29th century for sure,
if
not by
the year 4,000.

Even when you include a
small genset for the "diesel-electric" approach there's a big win in
the
long
term "total cost of investment."

*if* total cost of investment means total cost of investment the
breakeven
point may never be reached.

but keep hoping and praying.

have blue
 

ah, I see. all it takes to make fuel cells viable is FAITH!!!

okay joony. anything you say.

Probably. At least I'm not a dinosaur in my thinking.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
joony, do you have stock in yet another fuel cell company?

Go away. You're stupid and boring.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
But the elect. motor/gen. sounds ideal if the costs
could be competitive.

AND if you are willing to sail for 173 days straight just to motor less
than a
day. (see prior post).

have blue
 

ah, I forgot about Perpetual Motion drives. Thanks for reminding me.

Hardly perpetual motion.
The sails provide the horsepower to recharge for the most part.

no, "for the most part" nobody uses the technology/techniques suggested because
the **** don't work.

dragging buckets to gather water to pour on a watermill to turn the propeller
is still dragging buckets. It slows you down.

To the extent there is any gain at all, it is more costly, heavier, less
reliable than a gas or diesel fired engine.

have blue
 

The 47 foot, 20,000 lb. cat my numbers are from used two 12 horse engines. Running off a 10 kW
genset, it could make 7 knots. So your numbers are, typically, off by a factor of three.

Further why do you assume the boat sails out as far as it can, and then powers all the way back? Is
that what you normally do? Most people will sail back to their marine or inlet, etc. and then power
in.

--
-jeff

"JAXAshby" wrote in message ...
let's see. 2 22 hp engines running a total of 25 minutes uses (with 100%
efficiency) uses approzimatedl 13,752.345627 watts. The boat produces (at 9
knots) about 3,000 watts.

This means that with 100% efficiency that sailboat only has to make 9 knots for
just under 5 hours.

And at 9 knots for 5 hours, the boat is 45 miles away.

howya gonna git home in 10 minutes in that boat?

Sounds like a reasonable set up. Most daysailors motor 15 minutes to leave
slip, then sail a few hours, and motor 10 minutes to return to slip. Should
work well for that. And a gen-set as a back up.

Scotty

SV


"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
No, the regen isn't necessarily needed if you start with a topped of
battery. A
system like this gives one a lot of options. Regeneration will not
provide for
all needs, except in limited cases. However, it is nice if it can supply
a
substantial part of the use.


"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
so, the regen doesn't really work unless you plug the batteries in at
the
dock?

okay.

but, if that is the case why buy the regen equipment?


Jaxie, you're having your typical comprehension problem. The 32
hp-hours
generated should be enough for an hour or two of powering - plenty to
power
the
cat out and back into the inlet. Since the batteries give 2 to 4 hours
of
backup, it isn't really necessary to regenerate if you're day sailing
out of
a
slip.

If you want to do long distance powering or motorsailing, you need to
run a
genset. However, a genset run at optimum rpm for recharging will be a
lot
cheaper to run than twin diesels.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
let's see. 22 amps at 144 (sic) volts when sailing 18 knots, for
about 4
hp
stored per hour times 8 hours gives about 32 hp hours.

yup, that works. you sailed 144 miles and now you're going to motor
back
using
1 hp and you are going to do it in just 32 hours (actually about 20
hours
after
taking out ineffiencies).

Being a little sloppy with the units is not that bad - his real
blunder is
claiming 72 Watts output. The Condor catamaran claims 22 Amps at
144
Volts,
or
over 3 kW output when regenerating in a good breeze. They generate
enough
sailing during the day to power in and out of their inlet.


"Martin Baxter" wrote in message
...
JAXAshby wrote:
oh, you mean horsepower can not be compared to watts?

Gee, the European engine manufacturers do it all the time.
somebody
should
tell them you can't do that.

No, I mean this:

"6 amps at 12 volts for 24 hours = 1,728 watts, which = 2.3
hp-hours."

Amps times Volts times hours = Watt-hrs, a unit of energy
Horspower times hours= hp-hrs, a unit of energy
Watts are units of power
Horsepower is a unit of power (who would of thought it?)

Energy and power are two different things, which you well know.

Cheers
Marty