Donald wrote:
I've got some difficulty trying to imagine sailing in 25 kts (30
app.) with
the helm lashed.

Katysails wrote:
We couldn't either. I think it's a crab crusher thing, not a fin
keel thing...Chanteuse
wouldn't like it at all....


Peter S/Y Anicula wrote:

Yes, it would depend on the boat. Modern light weight boats with most
of the stability from the fairly wide beam, fin keel and spaderudder
are not suited to be sailed without continuos corrections of the
rudder.

That's a common misconception IMHO. I've never sailed a boat that couldn't
be steadied up with the helm fixed (lashed, locked, pinned, or something
like that) at the very least with the wind forward of the beam. This
includes a Laser!



My boat sails itself well in 25 knots if closehauled. I don't even
have to lash the helm (Wheel). The ability to act this way is normally
sacrificed for extra speed. Boatdesign is always a compromise.
In some cases you can balance the boat by oversheeting the jib a bit
or letting a bit out on the traveller (main) keeping the main flat and
without to much twist - but it will probably only work if the boat
are reasonably well balanced and has a bit of directional stability.

Directional stability makes it easier, and makes it workable in a wider
range of conditions. In waves, some boats get their nose yanked around by
the nose and others have their hindquarters shoved one way and/or the
other; which makes it a bit more challenging.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Doug wrote:
Peter S/Y Anicula wrote:

Yes, it would depend on the boat. Modern light weight boats with
most
of the stability from the fairly wide beam, fin keel and
spaderudder
are not suited to be sailed without continuos corrections of the
rudder.

That's a common misconception IMHO. I've never sailed a boat that
couldn't
be steadied up with the helm fixed (lashed, locked, pinned, or
something
like that) at the very least with the wind forward of the beam. This
includes a Laser!

This discussion has the header "Ocean sailing" and conditions in
question was 25 knots and "squally".
I am well aware that almost all well balanced boats will sail itself
to windward in maybe 8 -10 knots on a calm see. If we are talking
oceansailing, I consider that more the exception than the rule. Normal
ocean swells and/or seas would make this kind of boat yaw way out of
the interval inside witch it will be able to regain its course.

You do have a point though. When talking about boat design absolutes
are rarely sensible. And we should remember that we all speak out of
different contexts. What is a practical generalisation for one, might
be a misconception seen from another point of view.
So the sentence should probably have been phrased:
"Modern light weight boats with most of the stability from the fairly
wide beam, fin keel and spaderudder are not suited to be sailed
without continuos corrections of the rudder, except in almost flat
water and fairly constant wind" .

Directional stability makes it easier, and makes it workable in a
wider
range of conditions.

Exactly.

In waves, some boats get their nose yanked around by
the nose and others have their hindquarters shoved one way and/or
the
other; which makes it a bit more challenging.

On the ocean in 25 knots with squalls I would think it would be more
of a challenge than a practical possibility.

But if you mean it's up to everyone to explore the abilities and
limits of his boat, and that reality is more important than other
peoples generalisations, then I think you have a very valid point.


Peter S/Y Anicula

But if you mean it's up to everyone to explore the abilities and
limits of his boat, and that reality is more important than other
peoples generalisations, then I think you have a very valid point.


Peter S/Y Anicula


That is a truer statement than most might realize. It applies to everything
from Sunfish on up and includes my freighter jobs. Not just how they
'react' on the ocean but in places like harbors or tight river bends.

More importantly but in a more philosophical mode, 'exploring one's own
abilities and limits' is probably the best definition of what we are all
doing than anything I've read on the site lo these many years!

Thanks for that.

M.

nereid wrote:
This discussion has the header "Ocean sailing" and conditions in
question was 25 knots and "squally".
I am well aware that almost all well balanced boats will sail itself
to windward in maybe 8 -10 knots on a calm see. If we are talking
oceansailing, I consider that more the exception than the rule. Normal
ocean swells and/or seas would make this kind of boat yaw way out of
the interval inside witch it will be able to regain its course.

I disagree. Ocean swells make *some* boats yaw further off course than
acceptable, but most fin keelers should be able to be balanced so that
they'll return to course in moderate conditions.

It may e that you're a bit more fussy about how wide a variation in
course is acceptable.


You do have a point though. When talking about boat design absolutes
are rarely sensible. And we should remember that we all speak out of
different contexts. What is a practical generalisation for one, might
be a misconception seen from another point of view.
So the sentence should probably have been phrased:
"Modern light weight boats with most of the stability from the fairly
wide beam, fin keel and spaderudder are not suited to be sailed
without continuos corrections of the rudder, except in almost flat
water and fairly constant wind" .

OK that's better. But you're still indulging in a bit of prejudice
against fin keel/spade ruddered boats IMHO.



In waves, some boats get their nose yanked around by
the nose and others have their hindquarters shoved one way and/or
the other; which makes it a bit more challenging.


On the ocean in 25 knots with squalls I would think it would be more
of a challenge than a practical possibility.

Hmm.. agreed. Depends on the boat, and depends even more on the skipper.
I probably wouldn't do it, personally... but then it would be most
likely that my boat would have an autopilot (did I ever mention that I'm
getting lazier as I get older)...



But if you mean it's up to everyone to explore the abilities and
limits of his boat, and that reality is more important than other
peoples generalisations, then I think you have a very valid point.

Excellently said. And thank you!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King