The boat project continues
 

Michael noted: The setup allows space to put the radar up high

You're sticking your radar on the mast? tsk tsk...there goes your =
balance....

--=20
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

The boat project continues
 

Not at all. Might be true on a lighter weight hull but it had no effect on
Se Fjern at 26' and even less on Se Lange at 31'. As I've learned height
is everything. The radars placed low down or on short poles are useful for
harbor entrances and the like, not so useful on open ocean situations. In
this case I have 'weight below to spare. Windage increase would be even more
of an issue but even that is negligible. I added radar to begin with
because of conditions up here in the Pacific NW. Lots of fog during the
best of the summer sailing system is not uncommon. With the original 12"
radome I found life a lot easier. On the trans-Pac I set the guard system
and it would come on every 15 minutes, do 20 turns and alert me if some
target showed. Like an auto-tilller it's an extra crew member. Down low
it's in the troughs too much and tends to beep off on signals from the tops
of swells and waves. Reduce the seas state sensitivity and it degrades
performance in areas needed. By adding height you make it a useful tool.
With the original radar I refined the settings based on actual targets. The
new one is 18" array and works even better. What I would NOT do is put up a
three or four foot array on a smaller hull. That would upset balance and be
a windage issue. The only thing new this time is a swinging type radar
mount.

A neat thing about my present job is the ability to use radar constantly.
While I don't have the bells and whistles of the big 10cm and 3cm Sperry's I
am very comfortable with the use of radar. It's one of the most useful
support tools out there.

But as with GPS I still rely on the basics. The Mark I, Mod 1 Eyeball
System is to radar as good navigation is to the GPS.

M.



"katysails" wrote in message
...
Michael noted: The setup allows space to put the radar up high

You're sticking your radar on the mast? tsk tsk...there goes your
balance....

--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

The boat project continues... radar
 

Michael wrote:

Not at all. Might be true on a lighter weight hull but it had no effect on
Se Fjern at 26' and even less on Se Lange at 31'. As I've learned height
is everything. The radars placed low down or on short poles are useful for
harbor entrances and the like, not so useful on open ocean situations.

Well, how far do you need to see? Our little old (late 1980s vintage) Furuno
mounted 12' above the waterline can pick up a 30' sailboat or a low sandy
coastline at 16 miles. We had a good chance to get it dialed in (and you're
right, experience makes a BIG difference) on our last cruise up Pamlico to the
Chesapeake and back.


In
this case I have 'weight below to spare. Windage increase would be even more
of an issue but even that is negligible.

Windage plus the tendency of lines & sails to snag on the thing. I'd put it aft
especially if you are already putting on an arch.


I added radar to begin with
because of conditions up here in the Pacific NW. Lots of fog during the
best of the summer sailing system is not uncommon. With the original 12"
radome I found life a lot easier. On the trans-Pac I set the guard system
and it would come on every 15 minutes, do 20 turns and alert me if some
target showed. Like an auto-tilller it's an extra crew member. Down low
it's in the troughs too much and tends to beep off on signals from the tops
of swells and waves. Reduce the seas state sensitivity and it degrades
performance in areas needed.

Very true, but that's one aspect of performance that modern sets are much
better. Having a computer analyze the return signal can tell you all sorts of
things that can't be seen by the Mark 1 eyeball. I don't have very much
experience at all with the new fancy radar sets but at some point we are going
to upgrade.



By adding height you make it a useful tool.
With the original radar I refined the settings based on actual targets.

How high do you have to go to make it 'useful'? I think the latter point is mor
important, to have a reliable set that you have experience with real returns, so
that you know what the radar is showing you. Too many people think of it as
magic and only turn it on in foul weather.

One of the best ways to use it IMHO is around commercial shipping, it tells you
unequivocably what their speed & course are. I also believe in taking visual
bearings but it's nice to have the backup.



--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

The boat project continues
 

Michael wrote:

Nope I'm much better at making money than being a boat builder or craftsman

heh heh if I decided to quit work and take up boatbuilding, the IRS would shed a
river of tears! But all the same, I like to do my own work for a number of
reasons.... I know it's done right... I get more familiar with odd corners of
the boat and what's tucked into them... I'll stand a better chance of being able
to fix what I've installed or modified myself, plus the added familiarity with
the boat & equipment helps the chances of fixing anything else... the tools &
parts are more likely to be on board....

Good example of that last, during haulout I wanted to repack the stern gland but
was pressed for time... called a boatyard worker and made a deal with him to
pull out all the old packing (usually the time consuming part), and I would just
put in the new. He used some tools I did not have anyway, but the former owner
had hung a packing gland wrench next to the stern gland but this wrench did not
fit! If I had let the boatyard do the whole job I would not have found this out
until too late.



and I sure can't get anywhere near the level of these people up in Port
Townsend.

That may be true, but in the cases where we bring in the professionals (such as
the current job which involves welding up a hi temp stainless exhaust system) I
work right alongside to learn as much as I can about their skills & tools. Most
of the time the really good pros are glad to teach.


And the cost is lessened as they buy at dealers prices. For
example the power vang (the solid rod looking kind with a control line that
provides support as well as down pressure) boom, fittings and more will run
1/3 to 1/2 the cost of buying it myself.

You should learn to shop around more. For example, the heating system I'm
installing plugs into the diesel fuel system... here's a chance to renew &
upgrade the boat's fuel system... including installing Racor parallel filters &
gauges... expensive but after some web searching and calling around I found one
at about half list price.

One of the biggest problems for capitalism is that the internet has introduced a
constant state of price war for all goods & services. But let's not get diverted
into politics...




Where I got carried away a la' racing style was in the main sail. With the
new boom I added all the sail shaping lines you can think of (full batten
loose foot). I don't race per se but I've learned a hell of a lot on making
my sails more efficient by watching and helping out on their boats.

It's all good. I happen to think that a full batten main & solid vang are make
for very easy sail handling.

The things to learn from racing IMHO are boat handling & sailing skills, rig
improvements for sail handling, and in some cases weather prediction & routing.
Constantly adjusting fine tune of rig is not for cruising, and it's not what
makes racers go faster than cruisers, either. Racing is like a drill for many of
the things you'll do handling a boat when cruising. For example I know many
cruisers who are dubious about gybing and either approach it trepidation or
avoid it altogether. A racer just skips the worry and gybes over. But then many
things will be done with a bigger crew and other things will not be done at all.
It's all good, but then I am the old fashioned sort who thinks that any
knowledge or skill is a good thing for itself.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

The boat project continues
 

"Michael" wrote in message
...
snip

Meanwhile there's this young sailor who goes out with everyone and anyone
every chance he gets. Helps out in the refit yard with no pay just to
learn
how to do boats. I wonder if he'd like to carry on with Se Fjern. What do
you think? Donate for a tax write off? Sell? Keep her for just in case?
Or start some one else off in this wonderful world of sailing?

I would advise you to sell. Do so as soon as possible. You may then
decide to donate the proceeds to charity, if you want to.


Do **NOT** hold onto the old boat for sentimental reasons. However much you
love her at the moment, you will soon forget her once you sail your new
boat.

I was really sad when I put my previous boat on the market. I thought that
I would never get over the loss.

I guess that within 10 minutes of boarding the new boat, my feelings for
the old boat were totally demolished. It was a real shock!



Regards


Donal
--

The boat project continues
 

"Michael" wrote in message
...
Not at all. Might be true on a lighter weight hull but it had no effect
on
Se Fjern at 26' and even less on Se Lange at 31'


Have you told us what the make, and model your new boat is?

As you know, I have a particular fondness for the Centaur. It was the boat
that I did my first cross channel crossing in. I'll never forget the land
disappearing into the darkness, and the first experience of being surrounded
by water - as far as the eye could see.

The next morning, the skipper suggested a shot of rum. I assumed that the
old salt knew what he was talking about - so I ignored my instincts and
accepted his rum - I won't *ever* make that mistake again!! John, I know
that you are reading this. It's about time that you explained why you
thought that a Pussers rum would be good at 6 am!!!


Regards



Donal
--

The boat project continues
 

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 17:26:37 -0800, "Michael"
wrote:

Meanwhile there's this young sailor who goes out with everyone and anyone
every chance he gets. Helps out in the refit yard with no pay just to learn
how to do boats. I wonder if he'd like to carry on with Se Fjern. What do
you think? Donate for a tax write off? Sell? Keep her for just in case?
Or start some one else off in this wonderful world of sailing?

M.



Most of that will be ready for this summers sailing the rest happens over
the next winter.


I'd give Se Fjern to the lad. I'd check and see if he could afford to
keep her up first.

Mark E. Williams

The boat project continues
 

Much the same attitude on the benefits of the racing techniques. It fine
tunes one for the real sailing. As for shopping around? Why? My friends
who are running the project by at dealers prices. I've never been able to
come close to beating those numbers. They are expanding their business a
bit by doing not just rigging but overseeing complete makeovers and
upgrades. They get my boat to perfect that area of their business. But the
reason for not doing a lot of it myself? I'm just not that good at a lot of
those skills. Timber Trestle Bridges drift pinned together yes. Fine
cabinetry work . . .forget it. Mine end up looking like apile of sawdust.
I'll stick to what I do best.

On the other hand they are doing a complete set of digitals for each phase
and each separate project and including parts, spares, and tools lists.
I'll also get a comprehensive training session on everything.

Who knows, by the time all is done I might be able to kerf a straight line .
.. . . maybe!

Cheers

Michael


"DSK" wrote in message
...
Michael wrote:

Nope I'm much better at making money than being a boat builder or
craftsman

heh heh if I decided to quit work and take up boatbuilding, the IRS would
shed a
river of tears! But all the same, I like to do my own work for a number of
reasons.... I know it's done right... I get more familiar with odd corners
of
the boat and what's tucked into them... I'll stand a better chance of
being able
to fix what I've installed or modified myself, plus the added familiarity
with
the boat & equipment helps the chances of fixing anything else... the
tools &
parts are more likely to be on board....

Good example of that last, during haulout I wanted to repack the stern
gland but
was pressed for time... called a boatyard worker and made a deal with him
to
pull out all the old packing (usually the time consuming part), and I
would just
put in the new. He used some tools I did not have anyway, but the former
owner
had hung a packing gland wrench next to the stern gland but this wrench
did not
fit! If I had let the boatyard do the whole job I would not have found
this out
until too late.



and I sure can't get anywhere near the level of these people up in Port
Townsend.

That may be true, but in the cases where we bring in the professionals
(such as
the current job which involves welding up a hi temp stainless exhaust
system) I
work right alongside to learn as much as I can about their skills & tools.
Most
of the time the really good pros are glad to teach.


And the cost is lessened as they buy at dealers prices. For
example the power vang (the solid rod looking kind with a control line
that
provides support as well as down pressure) boom, fittings and more will
run
1/3 to 1/2 the cost of buying it myself.

You should learn to shop around more. For example, the heating system I'm
installing plugs into the diesel fuel system... here's a chance to renew &
upgrade the boat's fuel system... including installing Racor parallel
filters &
gauges... expensive but after some web searching and calling around I
found one
at about half list price.

One of the biggest problems for capitalism is that the internet has
introduced a
constant state of price war for all goods & services. But let's not get
diverted
into politics...




Where I got carried away a la' racing style was in the main sail. With
the
new boom I added all the sail shaping lines you can think of (full
batten
loose foot). I don't race per se but I've learned a hell of a lot on
making
my sails more efficient by watching and helping out on their boats.

It's all good. I happen to think that a full batten main & solid vang are
make
for very easy sail handling.

The things to learn from racing IMHO are boat handling & sailing skills,
rig
improvements for sail handling, and in some cases weather prediction &
routing.
Constantly adjusting fine tune of rig is not for cruising, and it's not
what
makes racers go faster than cruisers, either. Racing is like a drill for
many of
the things you'll do handling a boat when cruising. For example I know
many
cruisers who are dubious about gybing and either approach it trepidation
or
avoid it altogether. A racer just skips the worry and gybes over. But then
many
things will be done with a bigger crew and other things will not be done
at all.
It's all good, but then I am the old fashioned sort who thinks that any
knowledge or skill is a good thing for itself.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

The boat project continues
 

Se Fjern is a Centaur and has two and half plus circumnavs under her old
keel.

Se Lange is a Berwick.

I'm a huge fan of English twin keel boats.

There the best thing since HP Sauce!

M.



"Donal" wrote in message
...

"Michael" wrote in message
...
Not at all. Might be true on a lighter weight hull but it had no effect
on
Se Fjern at 26' and even less on Se Lange at 31'


Have you told us what the make, and model your new boat is?

As you know, I have a particular fondness for the Centaur. It was the
boat
that I did my first cross channel crossing in. I'll never forget the
land
disappearing into the darkness, and the first experience of being
surrounded
by water - as far as the eye could see.

The next morning, the skipper suggested a shot of rum. I assumed that
the
old salt knew what he was talking about - so I ignored my instincts and
accepted his rum - I won't *ever* make that mistake again!! John, I
know
that you are reading this. It's about time that you explained why you
thought that a Pussers rum would be good at 6 am!!!


Regards



Donal
--

The boat project continues... radar
 

The height will be determined by the riggers. It's still higher than the
arch system so I'm happy. With a new sailplan they are tweaking the system
so everything works in concert and that keeps the snagging problems out of
it. Otherwise what you say would be exactly right. I'm taking advantage of
a once in a lifetime situation. How high is high enough. Wait for the lats
and atts article. OK don't wait. At 120 feet off the water our huge 3cm
and 10cm sets have trouble picking up some targets until they are within 8
to 10 miles. These targets are fishing float reflectors, small wooden hull
native fishing boats and .. . sailboats. The further down the more 'ground
clutter' (waves, spray etc.) and the distance is less. Not a problem much
if the target is a huge cliff or a massive freighter but a definite problem
if the shoreline is flat and low or the ship is low and non reflective.

I thought hard about this for some time but finally told the rigging shop I
preferred mast mount but would go along with whatever fit the sail plan
design the best.

I ended up with the best of both worlds in what is always a compromise
situation.

Anyone want a used but workable Goldstar? It was mounted six foot off the
deck in the middle of the spinnaker track.

M.

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Michael wrote:

Not at all. Might be true on a lighter weight hull but it had no effect
on
Se Fjern at 26' and even less on Se Lange at 31'. As I've learned
height
is everything. The radars placed low down or on short poles are useful
for
harbor entrances and the like, not so useful on open ocean situations.

Well, how far do you need to see? Our little old (late 1980s vintage)
Furuno
mounted 12' above the waterline can pick up a 30' sailboat or a low sandy
coastline at 16 miles. We had a good chance to get it dialed in (and
you're
right, experience makes a BIG difference) on our last cruise up Pamlico to
the
Chesapeake and back.


In
this case I have 'weight below to spare. Windage increase would be even
more
of an issue but even that is negligible.

Windage plus the tendency of lines & sails to snag on the thing. I'd put
it aft
especially if you are already putting on an arch.


I added radar to begin with
because of conditions up here in the Pacific NW. Lots of fog during the
best of the summer sailing system is not uncommon. With the original
12"
radome I found life a lot easier. On the trans-Pac I set the guard
system
and it would come on every 15 minutes, do 20 turns and alert me if some
target showed. Like an auto-tilller it's an extra crew member. Down low
it's in the troughs too much and tends to beep off on signals from the
tops
of swells and waves. Reduce the seas state sensitivity and it degrades
performance in areas needed.

Very true, but that's one aspect of performance that modern sets are much
better. Having a computer analyze the return signal can tell you all sorts
of
things that can't be seen by the Mark 1 eyeball. I don't have very much
experience at all with the new fancy radar sets but at some point we are
going
to upgrade.



By adding height you make it a useful tool.
With the original radar I refined the settings based on actual targets.

How high do you have to go to make it 'useful'? I think the latter point
is mor
important, to have a reliable set that you have experience with real
returns, so
that you know what the radar is showing you. Too many people think of it
as
magic and only turn it on in foul weather.

One of the best ways to use it IMHO is around commercial shipping, it
tells you
unequivocably what their speed & course are. I also believe in taking
visual
bearings but it's nice to have the backup.



--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein