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Oz wrote:
On Thu, 5 Feb 2004 19:15:53 -0000, "Wally"
scribbled thusly:

Bobsprit wrote:

And while we're at it, when you say some heel, what does that tranlate
to in degrees?

Some = 17%

17% of what? 90 degrees?

Nah, degrees come in bunches of 360:-)

I wasn't sure since you guys are hanging upside down!

I always thought your circles were much smaller than the USA...

LP (oh, I should go to bed and stop all of this...)

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Good juror! I haven't seen any proof myself...

LP

"katysails" wrote:
Donal stated: Bob thinks

You have proof of this?

--
katysails

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The keel and rudder are not as efficient. They don't get as good a
"grip"

Yet the boat goes faster...


Yup...a lot depends in the keel and hull form.

RB

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On Fri, 6 Feb 2004 01:50:46 -0000, "Donal"
wrote this crap:


"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
That's some heel!

Enough for the deck-top fenders to roll overboard...

Real boats have toe-rails, wally! Tends to keep stuff on deck.

Cripes! Bob thinks that a toe-rail would stop a fender rolling overboard.

Only a dumbass like Bob would sail with his bumpers still on deck
anyways.




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Oz wrote:
Dunno about reefing, just looks like it all nice and flat.

Maybe it's just my eyes... the head of their mainsail looks much further
down the mast than the others.


Does it make a boat go faster to drag the lifelines in the water?


Rarely...but having the rail just clear is the way most sail best.

heh heh some put their rails under very quickly and easily... an old Six
Meter for example, with about 8" of freeboard. Oddly enough this is one
of the the boats I know that sails fastest when heeled a lot... didn't
have lifelines though.

One of the best demonstrations of the effect of heel was in a video of
the match race series, IIRC this one at Bermuda. Looking at a pair of
well matched boats, of the same design, with expert skippers & crews.
From straight ahead, you could see that one responded a bit less
quickly to the gusts, and heeled to about 40 degrees or so while the
other stayed more upright. The one that heeled slid to leeward each
time. They lost a safe windward position and ended up right in the other
boats gas, had to tack away...

Having the rail 'just clear' may be a good guideline until you have a
chance to study the boats performance more closely. But for the most
part, when the wind is up, it's easy to heel too much and think it's
going really fast.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

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It is? My boat, like many, has a longer waterline when heeled.


SAIL LOCO wrote:
Most boats do. More importantly when heeling the sailplan spills wind. It's
wasted. The keel and rudder are not as efficient. They don't get as good a
"grip"

Waterline length isn't the whole game. The longest possible waterline
would be if the boat was submerged up to the gunwhales, which would
probably not be faster.

One issue to keep in mind is that more heel = more weather helm. If
you're dragging your rudder sideways, you ain't going fast!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

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Waterline length isn't the whole game. The longest possible waterline
would be if the boat was submerged up to the gunwhales, which would
probably not be faster.

That's not a responsible comment. A heeled vessel, properly designed, can gain
WL without a significant gain in wetted surface.

RB

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One issue to keep in mind is that more heel = more weather helm. If
you're dragging your rudder sideways, you ain't going fast!


However, there is a sweet spot where the boat will gain WL, have good VMG and
not increase wetted surface.
The rest is gobbily gook and pretty obvious. Clearly a vessel heeled to far
won't make much VMG and have a flawed track.

RB

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Yet the boat goes faster....

But it would go even faster if it didn't heel over and it would sail closer to
the wind.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"No shirt, no skirt, full service"

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Horvath, you have finally made a statement that actually makes
sense and is accurate. Thank you. I know I haven't been a very
good teacher. The only quibble I have is your use of the word
"sail," as Bob doesn't actually sail.

"Horvath" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 6 Feb 2004 01:50:46 -0000, "Donal"
wrote this crap:


"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
That's some heel!

Enough for the deck-top fenders to roll overboard...

Real boats have toe-rails, wally! Tends to keep stuff on deck.

Cripes! Bob thinks that a toe-rail would stop a fender rolling
overboard.

Only a dumbass like Bob would sail with his bumpers still on deck
anyways.




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Yet the boat goes faster....

(SAIL LOCO) wrote:
But it would go even faster if it didn't heel over and it would sail closer to
the wind.


wrote:
???

Seems like Loco's statement was very straighforward and easy to understand.

Do you honestly believe that more heel = sailing faster?

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

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Do you honestly believe that more heel = sailing faster?

It most certainly can.


Doug, it "can." No one but you is speeking in absolutes.

RB

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Do you honestly believe that more heel = sailing faster?


wrote:
It most certainly can.

True... very good. Now, here's the key question: when?

A good sailor must be able to identify when the boat is within an efficient range of
sailing attitudes, and when to depower. In other words, how much heel is good, and how
far over does it go before it starts getting bad. This varies *very* much from boat to
boat; and with a given boat it will vary according to the conditions.

This is from a performance point of view, a lot of people who ride around on sailboats
either find heeling to be exciting, and try to maximize it; or find it disconcerting
and try to avoid it.



When your trawler "heels" they call that "listing", and it may
coincide with poor performance and handling. Try not to let that
confuse you too much.

I'm not the one who is confused here.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King
On-line since 1989 and still 100% sock-puppet free

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Except for the misspelling, a great phrase..."No one buy you
is speaking in absolutes."

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
Do you honestly believe that more heel = sailing faster?

It most certainly can.


Doug, it "can." No one but you is speeking in absolutes.

RB

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"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Except for the misspelling, a great phrase..."No one but you
is speaking in absolutes."

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
Do you honestly believe that more heel = sailing faster?

It most certainly can.


Doug, it "can." No one but you is speeking in absolutes.

RB

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On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 19:10:57 GMT, wrote
this crap:


Do you honestly believe that more heel = sailing faster?

It most certainly can.


I'll start telling my crew to sit on the low side.





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And, specifically, when would you tell them to do that?
(There is a time for this, btw.)

"Horvath" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 19:10:57 GMT, wrote
this crap:


Do you honestly believe that more heel = sailing faster?

It most certainly can.


I'll start telling my crew to sit on the low side.





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"katysails" wrote in message
...
Donal stated: Bob thinks

You have proof of this?


No.

I must admit that I had a little too much to drink.


Regards


Donal
--

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"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
One issue to keep in mind is that more heel = more weather helm. If
you're dragging your rudder sideways, you ain't going fast!


However, there is a sweet spot where the boat will gain WL, have good VMG
and
not increase wetted surface.
The rest is gobbily gook and pretty obvious. Clearly a vessel heeled to
far
won't make much VMG and have a flawed track.

Well, smack me about the head with a pair of old mackerel!!!
Bob is trying to take part in a sailing discussion, ... *again*!!!!!



Regards


Donal
--

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incredible isn't it...

"Donal" wrote in message
...

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
One issue to keep in mind is that more heel = more weather helm. If
you're dragging your rudder sideways, you ain't going fast!


However, there is a sweet spot where the boat will gain WL, have good
VMG
and
not increase wetted surface.
The rest is gobbily gook and pretty obvious. Clearly a vessel heeled to
far
won't make much VMG and have a flawed track.

Well, smack me about the head with a pair of old mackerel!!!
Bob is trying to take part in a sailing discussion, ... *again*!!!!!



Regards


Donal
--

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Nutsy,

I really am not happy getting into this discussion but I'd like to
remind the "heelers" that you can heel a boat to a capsize without
forward motion.

A well trimmed boat will be the boat with max forward motion with min
amount of heel! ALWAYS!!

Heeling is a necessary evil to sail power and should be kept to a
minimum. If your boat is heeling 30 Deg or more, it means you are
shortening your affective sail plan height, your sail plan is getting
outside of your hull plan ( Causing weather helm).

This heeling maybe increasing water line lenght but at the same time it
is decreasing sail height, decreasing keel depth. decreasing rudder
depth. Probably increasing leeway

Try keeping the sail above the boat and not to the side and you'll sail
fast and better

Get the boat back on her feet. Nothing good happens bent over!!

"I'LL DRINK TO THAT!"

Ole Thom

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Dumb Question BB,

The logic is faulty? "Which is faster a 10ft Kayak or a 14ft?" If ,as
you say, keep the same proportions, a 100ft kayak with the same Guy
paddling should be way, way faster. NOT SO!!

Ole Thom

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A well trimmed boat will be the boat with max forward motion with min
amount of heel! ALWAYS!!


This is not rationonal, since some heel and resulting extended WL is an
intended function of a given design. It's not an "evil" but a known factor that
designers considered and worked with. Calling heel "evil" would be like calling
wetted surface "mean."

RB

RB

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This heeling maybe increasing water line lenght but at the same time it
is decreasing sail height, decreasing keel depth. decreasing rudder
depth. Probably increasing leeway

A heeled rig may still be optimal. All boats make some leeway. The original
point was about a heeled design going faster than design sailed flat. On the
P30 we observed the highest speeds on a reach with a heel factor around 15.

RB

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Heel isn't evil, its just silly. You could spill your drink! Everyone knows a
proper boat should sail perfectly upright.

-jeff
"I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way" -Jessica Rabbit


"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
A well trimmed boat will be the boat with max forward motion with min
amount of heel! ALWAYS!!


This is not rationonal, since some heel and resulting extended WL is an
intended function of a given design. It's not an "evil" but a known factor
that
designers considered and worked with. Calling heel "evil" would be like
calling
wetted surface "mean."

RB

RB

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Not true! A boat permanently at dock (like yours) would never make leeway.

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
This heeling maybe increasing water line lenght but at the same time it
is decreasing sail height, decreasing keel depth. decreasing rudder
depth. Probably increasing leeway

A heeled rig may still be optimal. All boats make some leeway. The
original
point was about a heeled design going faster than design sailed flat. On
the
P30 we observed the highest speeds on a reach with a heel factor around
15.

RB

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Hey Nutsy,

Just think how much faster you'd go if that same wind was pushing you on
a "Iceboat" without any heel. No need for increased hull lenght. Think
how much faster you'd go on a sailboard with no heel with the sail
streaight up. Consider the better speeds capable by Multi hulls without
the "EVIL" of Heel.

You don't have to call it Evil but it is a unwanted action of a
displacement hull as soon as it comes off the wind and starts going
across or up wind.

I think of it as "EVIL!"

AND: "I'LL DRINK TO THAT!"

Ole Thom

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BB,

I own an 11 foot Kayak. I know what you're trying to say. I still say
your logic isn't complete.

Have you even considered a Racing Canoe/ Kayak? I know you haven't. You
have locked yourself in with certain limits in your own mind.

OT

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Not true! A boat permanently at dock (like yours) would never make leeway.


Poor Gayanzy...even in his trolls he's wrong. Floating marina's do in fact make
tiny amounts of leeway.

RB

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You degenerate! First a Nonsuch, then a cat. What's next?
A....gasp...Trawler?!?! OH! the humanity!

On Sat, 7 Feb 2004 13:59:00 -0500, "Jeff Morris"
wrote:

Heel isn't evil, its just silly. You could spill your drink! Everyone knows a
proper boat should sail perfectly upright.

-jeff
"I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way" -Jessica Rabbit


"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
A well trimmed boat will be the boat with max forward motion with min
amount of heel! ALWAYS!!


This is not rationonal, since some heel and resulting extended WL is an
intended function of a given design. It's not an "evil" but a known factor
that
designers considered and worked with. Calling heel "evil" would be like
calling
wetted surface "mean."

RB

RB

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When you're right, you're right. I'm sure this is the extent of leeway for
you and
your boat! YOU WIN AGAIN!

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
Not true! A boat permanently at dock (like yours) would never make
leeway.


Poor Gayanzy...even in his trolls he's wrong. Floating marina's do in fact
make
tiny amounts of leeway.

RB

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Actually, before the Nonsuch I had a Paceship Eastwind. Not an Alberg, but a
similar design. Before that I raced IODs, and a mess of dinghies. I suppose
some might say I've gone downhill.

The thought of a trawler is attractive if we do ICW cruising again. But I'd get
a powercat, like the PDQ MV34.
http://www.pdqyachts.com/ver2/yachts...rFrameSet.html

Then I'd have to get a small, personal cruiser, like a Nonsuch 22 or 26.

And, as my daughter says, "Oh, the Huge Manatee!"



"Marc" wrote in message
...
You degenerate! First a Nonsuch, then a cat. What's next?
A....gasp...Trawler?!?! OH! the humanity!

On Sat, 7 Feb 2004 13:59:00 -0500, "Jeff Morris"
wrote:

Heel isn't evil, its just silly. You could spill your drink! Everyone knows
a
proper boat should sail perfectly upright.

-jeff
"I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way" -Jessica Rabbit


"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
A well trimmed boat will be the boat with max forward motion with min
amount of heel! ALWAYS!!


This is not rationonal, since some heel and resulting extended WL is an
intended function of a given design. It's not an "evil" but a known factor
that
designers considered and worked with. Calling heel "evil" would be like
calling
wetted surface "mean."

RB

RB

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"Thom Stewart" wrote:
Dumb Question BB,

The logic is faulty? "Which is faster a 10ft Kayak or a 14ft?" If ,as
you say, keep the same proportions, a 100ft kayak with the same Guy
paddling should be way, way faster. NOT SO!!

Ole Thom


Has anyone told you lately, Ole Thom, that you are such a great "guy"!

A mountain of knowledge you are...

LP (cheers to you)

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wrote:
On Sat, 7 Feb 2004 13:52:09 -0800 (PST), (Thom Stewart)
wrote:

BB,

I own an 11 foot Kayak. I know what you're trying to say. I still say
your logic isn't complete.

Have you even considered a Racing Canoe/ Kayak? I know you haven't. You
have locked yourself in with certain limits in your own mind.

OT

My associations are much more free than yours could ever be. You are the
one who
is stuck in neutral.

BB

I don't think so, Binary Bill! You are stuck in reverse, much worse than
being stuck in neutral...


LP

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I suggest he not back up too quickly... Bob is right behind him.

"Lady Pilot" wrote in message
news:rSiVb.19917$EW.7012@okepread02...

wrote:
On Sat, 7 Feb 2004 13:52:09 -0800 (PST), (Thom
Stewart)
wrote:

BB,

I own an 11 foot Kayak. I know what you're trying to say. I still say
your logic isn't complete.

Have you even considered a Racing Canoe/ Kayak? I know you haven't. You
have locked yourself in with certain limits in your own mind.

OT

My associations are much more free than yours could ever be. You are the
one who
is stuck in neutral.

BB

I don't think so, Binary Bill! You are stuck in reverse, much worse than
being stuck in neutral...


LP

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"Jonathan Ganz" wrote:
I suggest he not back up too quickly... Bob is right behind him.

Hehee. You got one right, Ganz...
LP

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Oh, Look! Thom the burnt out alchoholic has an enabler/defender!


Gayanzy saw an actual sailing dialogue going on and he couldn't take it. For
that matter does he ever start one?

I think the general elements of WL/Speed/heel has fallen to semantics at this
point.

RB

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Some of my fondest sailing memories are of heeling my catamaran.

Scotty

"Jeff Morris" wrote ...
Heel isn't evil, its just silly. You could spill your drink! Everyone
knows a
proper boat should sail perfectly upright.

-jeff
"I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way" -Jessica Rabbit

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Has any one told you lately, Ole Thom, that you are such a great
"guy"

Just me!!!

Ole Thom